Property Entitlements For A Farang Husband.

[Mason45]

My Thai wife was 68 yo's last week and I'm going on 80. I presume I'll fall off the perch before she does because of the age difference. So what happens if she were to die before me? We own ( fully paid ) 3 properties that I paid for but all are in her name. The all up value is around 5 million baht so can I sell those properties? We've been married for 24 years so the properties being in her name aren't a problem. If I'm the last to go I'll give everything to her only grand kid. He's 25 yo's now and he's a great kid with a good job, no tatts etc and has always treated me as though I'm his real grand father.

[connda]

Usufruct contract - look it up.  It's been discussed on this site at length.

[youreavinalaff]

11 minutes ago, connda said:

Usufruct contract - look it up.  It's been discussed on this site at length.

That doesn't answer his question.

[MangoKorat]

I'm unsure of the default position if your wife dies intestate (without leaving a will) but its probably best if she files a will with a lawyer whilst you are both capable.  If she leaves the properties to you, this is one occasion where you are allowed to 'own' the properties - although I don't think you can actually put them in your name.  There are provisions in place that allow this but you have to sell or transfer them within, I think, 12 months. Note: this only applies if your marriage is registered so if its not, get it done as soon as possible.

 

Alternatively, if all you seek is not being kicked out of your home, she can leave them to her grandson or another relative and you can secure your 'stay' with a correctly written Usufruct agreement.  The Usufruct passes on to any new owner and only ends if you give it up or die.

[Mason45]

We were legally married 24 years ago at Amphur Klong Sam Wah Minburi Bangkok.

[impulse]

If she pre-deceases you, why not "sell" the properties to her grandson within the 12 month limit, with him giving you a usufruct on the property?

 

In any case, I'd get a lawyer that you trust, before the events that may sweep away reason (and get any other Thai relatives sniffing around with greedy intent).

 

Edit:  I'm not clear on what happens if she gives you a usufruct on the property then dies.  Can you own the property and lease it to yourself, even within the 12 month period?  That's why I'd suggest discussing your options with a real lawyer, and not an anonymous AN "expert".

 

[Denim]

Writing a will would be a good idea. There are free downloads available that cover the basics and are written in Thai and English.

 

My wife and I have agreed that should she die before me all the property will go to my son in law and I will keep all the jewelry and gold plus any other assets that can quickly be sold.

 

I would probably stay on in our house for a few months then leave. No point remaining here without her by my side.

[Muhendis]

If your wife dies before you, and if there is no will, you inherit everything.

But.

The government rule is that you must sell any land and property within one year.

Failure to comply will result in land and property being sold by the government.

Whichever happens, you get the procedes of the sale which is likely to be very little if the government sells it.

[Celsius]

4 minutes ago, Muhendis said:

If your wife dies before you, and if there is no will, you inherit everything.

But.

The government rule is that you must sell any land and property within one year.

Failure to comply will result in land and property being sold by the government.

Whichever happens, you get the procedes of the sale which is likely to be very little if the government sells it.

 

Correct.

 

So, if I was in his place I would be selling properties now. 

[ecline]

17 minutes ago, Muhendis said:

If your wife dies before you, and if there is no will, you inherit everything.

But.

The government rule is that you must sell any land and property within one year.

Failure to comply will result in land and property being sold by the government.

Whichever happens, you get the procedes of the sale which is likely to be very little if the government sells it.

This is not completely correct. I thought like this for a couple of decades. My wife and I have been married over 30 years and we also have 2 properties. I always believed that if she passed before me the properties were mine to dispose of as I see fit within 12 months. The law actually says that in the absence of a will the properties will be divided equally among the wife's heirs, of which a spouse is potentially only one. So in theory, if your wife passes before you, her immediate family (children, brothers, sisters) can lay claim to a part of your properties. Whether they would do that or not is another question. But to be safe, get a will. We did as soon as we learned our assumptions were wrong.

[impulse]

23 minutes ago, ecline said:

So in theory, if your wife passes before you, her immediate family (children, brothers, sisters) can lay claim to a part of your properties. Whether they would do that or not is another question. But to be safe, get a will. We did as soon as we learned our assumptions were wrong.

 

My suspicion, having tuned in here for over 10 years, is that YMMV, depending on a lot of variables, including which land office the OP would be dealing with. 

 

One more reason to hire an attorney to discuss their options.

 

[john donson]

15 hours ago, Mason45 said:

My Thai wife was 68 yo's last week and I'm going on 80. I presume I'll fall off the perch before she does because of the age difference. So what happens if she were to die before me? We own ( fully paid ) 3 properties that I paid for but all are in her name. The all up value is around 5 million baht so can I sell those properties? We've been married for 24 years so the properties being in her name aren't a problem. If I'm the last to go I'll give everything to her only grand kid. He's 25 yo's now and he's a great kid with a good job, no tatts etc and has always treated me as though I'm his real grand father.

 

never to late to get a USUFRUCT ... cheap and you can LEASE them out for 30 years...  well, if you have kids... from previous marriage...

[CMBob]

44 minutes ago, ecline said:

. But to be safe, get a will. We did as soon as we learned our assumptions were wrong.

Best advice so far in this thread.  OP, you need to go see a Thai lawyer for explanation of what can happen....and for preparation of Thai Wills for both you and your wife.

[MartinL]

Best advice, as previously stated, is to write a Will. Especially if you're the last survivor. In your case, intestacy means no statutory heirs so the state would get everything. I'm sure you wouldn't want that!

 

Intestacy laws are summarised here:-

https://www.thailandlaw.org/intestate-succession-in-thailand.html

 

There are many similar documents out there but I've found this one clearest for me.

 

This is how I understand it, but might be wrong:-

 

As there is a grandchild, I assume there are also your wife's children, if living. In that case, Class 1 statutory heir applies - spouse and children. 50% for surviving spouse, 50% divided equally between children. NOTE NO PROVISION FOR GRANDCHILDREN.

 

If there are no surviving children, then parents come into the picture and so on down the list. I'd guess parents are deceased.

 

My own UK and Thai Wills both state that any assets I leave go to my Thai grandchildren (no descendants in UK) if my wife dies first, both those already born and any future births. The grandchildren's parents are OK financially so I'd want my assets to help the kids in their future.

 

[J Branche]

Definitely consult a lawyer.  The Usufruct being accepted is according to that regions Land Department and they will tell the lawyer the details.  The Will is also a good idea and inexpensive.  If you follow through update us on your experience.

[Severuss]

Just went through this with my Thai wife of 53 years death. You and your wife need a Thai will. The only way a foreign will is accepted by the court is if it is translated into Thai, specifically identifies the property in Thailand by address and is certified that it is a actual will in your home country. Good luck with that. No Thai will, the surviving husband or wife is allowed 50% of the assets and the other 50% goes to either deceased spouses family. To do anything you need their consent which they are happy to do for for a fee. Average cost for a furlong in Probate Court is 100,000.00 Baht and 6 months time. You and your wife get a Thai will!!! 30,000.00 Probate cost and automatically passed to surviving  spouse.

[MangoKorat]

10 hours ago, impulse said:

Edit:  I'm not clear on what happens if she gives you a usufruct on the property then dies. 

I've already covered that.  A Usufruct can only be cancelled by the holder upon either their instruction or their death.  No matter what happens to the registered owner, the Usufruct remains in place.

 

OP, just one thing to note - if you do involve a Usufruct, make sure its registered on the Chanotte and get someone to translate what is actually written on the back.  An unregistered Usfruct isn't worth a light.

[impulse]

15 minutes ago, MangoKorat said:

I've already covered that.  A Usufruct can only be cancelled by the holder upon either their instruction or their death.  No matter what happens to the registered owner, the Usufruct remains in place.

 

OP, just one thing to note - if you do involve a Usufruct, make sure its registered on the Chanotte and get someone to translate what is actually written on the back.  An unregistered Usfruct isn't worth a light.

 

Gotta be honest.  I don't know what happens when a foreigner becomes both sides of a usufruct agreement.  Is it legal to have an agreement with yourself?  Or will something hinky happen?

 

My suggestion still stands.  Discuss the options and ramifications with an attorney.  One that's familiar with the idiosyncrasies of the local land office.  Plenty of threads over the years where the local authorities interpreted the law differently.  Plus a few where they seemed to just make up their own rules.

 

[MangoKorat]

25 minutes ago, impulse said:

Gotta be honest.  I don't know what happens when a foreigner becomes both sides of a usufruct agreement.  Is it legal to have an agreement with yourself?  Or will something hinky happen?

Do you mean if he obttains a Usufruct, his wife then dies and leaves the property to him?

 

Unsure on that but I'm pretty sure the Usufruct would remain intact.  He would not actually own the property, he would only be entitled to the proceeds of its sale. It would never actually be registered in his name - it can't be.

[khunPer]

On 12/3/2024 at 10:10 AM, Mason45 said:

My Thai wife was 68 yo's last week and I'm going on 80. I presume I'll fall off the perch before she does because of the age difference. So what happens if she were to die before me? We own ( fully paid ) 3 properties that I paid for but all are in her name. The all up value is around 5 million baht so can I sell those properties? We've been married for 24 years so the properties being in her name aren't a problem. If I'm the last to go I'll give everything to her only grand kid. He's 25 yo's now and he's a great kid with a good job, no tatts etc and has always treated me as though I'm his real grand father.

Most important is a last will, as inheritance otherwise is distributed after Thai law, which in your case gives the husband 50% and children 50%.

 

 

As a foreigner cannot own land, you will have 12 months to sell or transfer it, if you get the land. Using registered usufruct or habitation right will still give you right to live in the home, but makes sale difficult, while transferring to a Thai family member is a possibility.

[Luuk Chaai]

On 12/4/2024 at 7:59 AM, john donson said:

 

never to late to get a USUFRUCT ... cheap and you can LEASE them out for 30 years...  well, if you have kids... from previous marriage...

you get 12 months to sell/transfer the property to  Thai    hopefully . she can in her will leave it to a "trusted" relative

 the usufruct .  worded correctly is attached to the Chanote and you are entitled to stay for life

key word here is  "trusted"   luckily .  my wife's sister lives in Texas with her American husband and is a really good egg !

[scorecard]

On 12/4/2024 at 6:43 AM, impulse said:

If she pre-deceases you, why not "sell" the properties to her grandson within the 12 month limit, with him giving you a usufruct on the property?

 

In any case, I'd get a lawyer that you trust, before the events that may sweep away reason (and get any other Thai relatives sniffing around with greedy intent).

 

Edit:  I'm not clear on what happens if she gives you a usufruct on the property then dies.  Can you own the property and lease it to yourself, even within the 12 month period?  That's why I'd suggest discussing your options with a real lawyer, and not an anonymous AN "expert".

 

 

And don't trust any 'advice' given by the amphur staff, they are not lawyers and not experts on these matters, but they will tell you they are. 

 

One example is getting a will for your Thai your wife. The amphur staff will tell you they know how to do this. But they don't.

 

Example: My Thai nephew decided he wanted to make a will (because my Thai son had just made his will, but Thai son did it with a Thai lawyer we have used before, but not free, 3,000Baht).

 

Nephew was told 'Amphur staff will do it free. So Nephew went to amphur office with his new wife. Nephew had found a template online and I alerted him to the appropriate clauses in the Thai Commercial Code. Nephew had completed the will template.

 

Amphur lady said 'but you have to leave 100,000Baht to your wife's mother'. Nephew was not convinced and contacted his old high school buddy who is now a lawyer. Lawyer said he was not convinced and went with my nephew and wife to the amphur office. Amphur lady insisted have to leave 100,000Baht to your wife's mother'.

Lawyer asked the Amphur lady:

- Are you a qualified lawyer? - Answer NO.

- Have you had specific training about writing wills? - NO.

- Please show me a Thai Gov't book / instruction / policy / document which states 'have to leave 100,000Baht to your wife's mother'.  She couldn't.

 

Supervisor now in the discussion says 'but she's just trying to help'.

 

Lawyer calls another lawyer who confirms there is no such law.

 

Amphur lady now says 'but I think It's a good idea'.

 

Nephew scoops up all the documents and go the his lawyer buddy's office. Lawyer writes the will for free.

 

Lawyer reports the matter to a government department who issue a letter to nephew saying there is no law / policy etc., saying have to leave 100,000Baht to your wife's mother'.

 

A few weeks later they go back to the Amphur office for a completely different matter. Lady who had claimed she knew the law but didn't not to be seen.

 

Amphur boss comes to the counter and says 'don't come here and make trouble, you made my staff member very upset'. But she does help with the new matter at hand.