Progressive Leaders Join Elon Musk in Critiquing American Healthcare Costs

[WDSmart]

37 minutes ago, mogandave said:

Yeah, I hear the left regurgitating the same unsupported nonsense constantly. Your opinion based on what someone else said. 

 

How have Trump and or Musk benefited from entering politics? 

 

Both were rich, well liked celebrities ten years ago, darlings to the left, now they’re they despised by everyone on the left. 

Trump and Musk have NEVER been "darlings of the left." Trump has never been, and Musk, at least for me, ruined his reputation when he threw a temper tantrum about how his efforts to save the kids trapped in a tunnel here in Thailand were not used. I don't remember WHY they were not used, but Musk took it as an insult. He and most multi-billionaires have never been in my "darling" category. They all seem to be egomaniacal, selfish, capitalistic, narcissists to me. 

[mogandave]

2 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

Trump and Musk have NEVER been "darlings of the left." Trump has never been, and Musk, at least for me, ruined his reputation when he threw a temper tantrum about how his efforts to save the kids trapped in a tunnel here in Thailand were not used. I don't remember WHY they were not used, but Musk took it as an insult. He and most multi-billionaires have never been in my "darling" category. They all seem to be egomaniacal, selfish, capitalistic, narcissists to me. 

Still dodging the question?

 

And yes, both were darings of the left before they spoke out against the left. 

 

 

[WDSmart]

13 minutes ago, BigStar said:

 

As you know, you're much too intelligent for that. Your IQ has now exceeded that of Jeff Bezos, too.

 

Bezos also expressed excitement about what Elon Musk is going to do at the Department of Government Efficiency.

     --Jeff Bezos: I’m ‘Super Optimistic’ About What Trump Is Going To Do For U.S.

 

We need a contest between our leftist intellectual titans here on ANF. Would seem difficult to administer, however. The likelihood of cheating would be too high.

 

I guess we'll have to content ourselves with simply counting the number of assertions of high intelligence each member posts, so the winner will be whoever has most. This is how we adjudge our penis size, sexual conquests, and expertise in Thai women, bar scenes, and Thai xenophobia contests. Works beautifully. "bob smith" won most of them, however.

 

I'm not so much concerned with IQ as with compassion, empathy, and the propensity to share. Those are the most important traits that, IMO, determine whether someone is a liberal or conservative. 

[WDSmart]

3 minutes ago, mogandave said:

Still dodging the question?

 

And yes, both were darings of the left before they spoke out against the left. 

 

 

I've been far-left liberal for at least 50 years. Neither Trump nor Musk has ever been my "darling." I don't recall Trump ever being supported by the left. And Musk may have been supported by some liberals when he started manufacturing electric vehicles, but other than that, no. Now, he seems obsessed with abandoning the Earth and going to another planet before we (humans) learn to live both socially and environmentally compatible with the Earth. I'd not call that "colonizing"; I'd call that "metastasizing," 

[BigStar]

5 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

I don't recall Trump ever being supported by the left.

 

Remember when Oprah and 'The View' liked Trump?

 

 

[BigStar]

18 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

I'm not so much concerned with IQ as with compassion, empathy, and the propensity to share. Those are the most important traits that, IMO, determine whether someone is a liberal or conservative. 

 

That is, liberals exploit compassion for political power, a favorite weapon to use on the gullible.

 

But, Stuckey argues, empathy becomes toxic when it is routinely weaponized in reflexive deference to political arguments predicated solely on compassion, to the exclusion of any opposing facts. Stuckey contends that on issues from crime to gender ideology to immigration, today’s left ruthlessly exploits people’s empathy while either burying or ignoring any truths that do not engender sympathy for its cultural and political agenda. 

     --The Exploitation of Compassion

[illisdean]

23 minutes ago, BigStar said:

 

Remember when Oprah and 'The View' liked Trump?

 

 

They did...UNTIL he became president. Now look at them, just mention the name Trump and they start emitting bodily fluids all over themselves. 

[WDSmart]

33 minutes ago, BigStar said:

45 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

I don't recall Trump ever being supported by the left.

 

Remember when Oprah and 'The View' liked Trump?

No, I don't watch either of these programs. But, if you say they did, I believe you. They, however, IMO, don't speak for all the left, like lefties like me. I'm very, very far left and what you'd probably call "woke" for over 50 years. (I'm going to be 79 in January.)

[WDSmart]

32 minutes ago, BigStar said:

 

That is, liberals exploit compassion for political power, a favorite weapon to use on the gullible.

 

But, Stuckey argues, empathy becomes toxic when it is routinely weaponized in reflexive deference to political arguments predicated solely on compassion, to the exclusion of any opposing facts. Stuckey contends that on issues from crime to gender ideology to immigration, today’s left ruthlessly exploits people’s empathy while either burying or ignoring any truths that do not engender sympathy for its cultural and political agenda. 

     --The Exploitation of Compassion

I'm sure that's true of some, maybe many liberals, especially those overly concerned with politics. This argument doesn't apply to me and other true liberals I know. 

[BigStar]

2 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

I'm sure that's true of some, maybe many liberals, especially those overly concerned with politics. This argument doesn't apply to me and other true liberals I know. 

 

Most liberals, such as yourself, are, besides miseducated and misinformed, also self-deluded. We take that into account. 

 

[Presnock]

23 hours ago, gargamon said:

Rubbish. It's the health insurance companies. Some seem to think the CEOs should be shot.

 

Medicare for all.

The problem with medicare for all is that it does not insure via medicare for overseas treatment - thus some expats might be affected in a negative fashion, having to insure locally at an advanced age.  If however, medicare for all included overseas treatment too then that would definitely get my support as I pay way too much for my "cadillac" coverage!

[WDSmart]

47 minutes ago, BigStar said:

 

Most liberals, such as yourself, are, besides miseducated and misinformed, also self-deluded. We take that into account. 

 

Most liberals I know, such as myself, are very well-educated, try to stay informed, and are not "self-deluded" but "woke." And, yes, you should take that into account on all of my comments. 

[Nick Carter icp]

10 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

Most liberals I know, such as myself, are very well-educated, try to stay informed, and are not "self-deluded" but "woke." And, yes, you should take that into account on all of my comments. 

 

   Judging from your posts, you do not appear to be well educated and you do not seem to have the ability to learn . If you have been shown to be wrong about something,  you just keep repeating the same wrong thing .

   That isn't what well educated intelligent people do 

[WDSmart]

9 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   Judging from your posts, you do not appear to be well educated and you do not seem to have the ability to learn . If you have been shown to be wrong about something,  you just keep repeating the same wrong thing .

   That isn't what well educated intelligent people do 

I am very well educated. I do have the ability to learn and have done so all my life. I only recall a few things that I have been wrong about on these forums, and I've acknowledged those. All the rest of the things people like you think I'm wrong about are just different opinions. You and I disagree on many things, maybe everything, but that doesn't make you or me wrong. That's the way I see it, anyway. 

[Luuk Chaai]

13 hours ago, WDSmart said:

No, I don't watch either of these programs. But, if you say they did, I believe you. They, however, IMO, don't speak for all the left, like lefties like me. I'm very, very far left and what you'd probably call "woke" for over 50 years. (I'm going to be 79 in January.)

 

good news..   you still have some time left to recover

[Luuk Chaai]

12 hours ago, WDSmart said:

Most liberals I know, such as myself, are very well-educated, try to stay informed, and are not "self-deluded" but "woke." And, yes, you should take that into account on all of my comments. 

 

what was that old saying ???      book smart and street st*** !

Disadvantages of Book Smarts:

• You might not be able to find a job if your only qualifications are book smarts.
• Your ability to think on your feet might be limited.
• You might have difficulty dealing with unexpected situations.
• You might struggle with common sense tasks

[TedG]

On 12/7/2024 at 3:31 AM, gargamon said:

Rubbish. It's the health insurance companies. Some seem to think the CEOs should be shot.

 

Medicare for all.

How much will it cost? 

[gargamon]

3 hours ago, TedG said:

How much will it cost? 

Single payer would cost less than what is being spent now. Bad news for health insurance companies though, as they'll be essentially out of business.

[gargamon]

16 hours ago, Presnock said:

The problem with medicare for all is that it does not insure via medicare for overseas treatment - thus some expats might be affected in a negative fashion, having to insure locally at an advanced age.  If however, medicare for all included overseas treatment too then that would definitely get my support as I pay way too much for my "cadillac" coverage!

That is a personal problem, not a problem with medicare. If you can't afford to live overseas, including the extra costs for health care/insurance, you shouldn't. Medicare/medicaid has enough problems with corruption already. Doing them overseas would amplify that significantly.

[TedG]

15 minutes ago, gargamon said:

Single payer would cost less than what is being spent now. Bad news for health insurance companies though, as they'll be essentially out of business.

How much.  What is the funding Method?

[Presnock]

1 hour ago, gargamon said:

That is a personal problem, not a problem with medicare. If you can't afford to live overseas, including the extra costs for health care/insurance, you shouldn't. Medicare/medicaid has enough problems with corruption already. Doing them overseas would amplify that significantly.

I do live overseas and my medical insurance covers all for my family.   If medical treatment in the states was so affordable then there wouldn't be that particular problem for citizens there.  As for here, the insurance companies either will not insure an older one fully without conditions normally and still would charge way too much as the hospital and doctors costs are lower here than many places.

But corruption in just about every area is now a problem with mankind.  

[Yellowtail]

On 12/8/2024 at 3:01 PM, WDSmart said:

I'm sure that's true of some, maybe many liberals, especially those overly concerned with politics. This argument doesn't apply to me and other true liberals I know. 

I'm a liberal, but unlike many on the left, and apparently you, my compassion is not selective. 

[Yellowtail]

On 12/8/2024 at 3:54 PM, WDSmart said:

Most liberals I know, such as myself, are very well-educated, try to stay informed, and are not "self-deluded" but "woke." And, yes, you should take that into account on all of my comments. 

I would say much educated, not well educated. 

[Patong2021]

Easy to blame the health insurers. Convenient too. The health insurers are one small  part of the cost structure. On the contrary, the health insurers would dearly love to reduce the cost of healthcare. The culprits are the  US public.

 

1. The largest investors in the private healthcare industry are  pension funds both public and private, mutual fund companies and venture capital investment houses. Their sole objective is to maximize the return on investment. When the ROI is not achieved, the  investors, beneficiaries,  fund holders are up in arms.

 

2. The health care providers themselves are a major factor in keeping procedure costs up. Surgeons want to  keep their $500,000+ incomes.

 

3. Private hospitals  are there to make a profit, not to deliver affordable healthcare. They are the middlemen delivering healthcare and want their cut.

 

4. The litigious nature of Americans requires all healthcare providers to make additional profits because they often have to  pay unreasonable excess settlements. When a morbidly obese person  has a high risk procedure like child birth and the child is born damaged, the  family typically sues and claims negligence. it results in expensive court cases and  nuisance settlements.

 

5. The cost of supplies and drugs is subject to large cost markups through the supply chain. Everyone takes a cut, from the overpaid Teamsters who deliver the goods, to the  supply houses who markup the  products, to the sales person who wines and dines hospital administrators and physicians to encourage their purchases.

 

6. The  consumer. Many hospitals are stuck with the unpaid medical care of the indigent and those who just don't pay. Honest people are forced to  pay for them

 

[Patong2021]

On 12/8/2024 at 7:38 PM, gargamon said:

Single payer would cost less than what is being spent now. Bad news for health insurance companies though, as they'll be essentially out of business.

 

No it wouldn't. Health  insurance companies would transition to a fee for service model and would be contracted as third party administrators.  That's how it is done with private health insurance now in jurisdictions that have government healthcare  programs. E.g. UK, Canada. 

[Yellowtail]

Medical insurance should be largely deregulated, except for the capital they must maintain.  

[Yellowtail]

It is interesting how competitive the pricing is for medical and dental procedures in the US that are typically not covered by insurance. 

 

I can get a tooth implant or elective eye surgery cheaper in some areas of the US than I can in Bangkok. 

[gargamon]

35 minutes ago, Patong2021 said:

 

No it wouldn't. Health  insurance companies would transition to a fee for service model and would be contracted as third party administrators.  That's how it is done with private health insurance now in jurisdictions that have government healthcare  programs. E.g. UK, Canada. 

Can't comment on the UK, but being from Canada, its the provincial governments that run the health care system, generally not very well. The insurance companies were never a big part as govt health care has been around there for a long time, like 50 years or more. 

[Purdey]

I believe that, while the quality of healthcare in the US is good, as long as you can afford it, Musk cannot just lower costs without understanding why they are high. A key issue will be the culture of profit before people will be hard to shake. Except maybe for doctors and nurses (I hope), everyone involved is out to make profits, from the hospital administrators to pharmaceutical companies. I once had a discussion with an American economist about the pros and cons of the health systems in the EU and US. He was proud that a European hospital was forced to send a patient to the US because it had treatment unavailable in the EU.

However, my point was, the patient would not have to pay for the treatment in the US, while an insurance company in the US would unlikely pay for someone to receive specialist treatment in the EU if unavailable in the US.

The capitalist system was supposed to lead to lower prices due to competition, but the USA has the highest heal costs of any country in the world. So, what can Musk do?

It isn't as if everyone in the US can afford healthcare, let alone the same healthcare as Musk. Hence the poor lifespan compare to similar countries.

Moreover, there is an entrenched for-profit mindset that will keep cost to consumers high.

 

 

[WDSmart]

4 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

On 12/8/2024 at 3:01 PM, WDSmart said:

I'm sure that's true of some, maybe many liberals, especially those overly concerned with politics. This argument doesn't apply to me and other true liberals I know. 

I'm a liberal, but unlike many on the left, and apparently you, my compassion is not selective. 

My response above was to an accusation that liberals "exploit compassion for political power." I would not exploit compassion for any reason, especially political power. I'm not concerned much with political power. I am mainly concerned with living according to my values and expressing those values when appropriate.