Revenue Department boss calls on tax residents in Thailand to file 2024 returns by March 31

[chiang mai]

4 hours ago, Yumthai said:

OK but that proves nothing of what the mix of non-filers is composed of.

The workforce is 38 million, the average wage is 15k per month, that means 50% of 38 million earn less than the threshold needed to file a return. 19 million below the threshold, plus 11 million who file a return, totals 30 million. There is therefore 8 million who don't file who perhaps should. Actually, the workforce is 36 million so make that 6  million who don't file......next!

[EVENKEEL]

3 hours ago, rattlesnake said:

 

Yep. I will start taking this seriously when I receive an official notification to pay by the authorities. To me, this seems so unlikely that I almost want it to happen so I can see how they managed to do it (and only then will I start considering alternative options).

 

A farang I know recently packed up and left the country because of this, reluctantly. I repeatedly told him not to get uptight, as IMO the likelihood of this actually happening is extremely low. Once the Thai authorities are faced with the mountain of complexities and difficulties it entails, coupled with the bad image for the country and actual loss of revenue from expats (the opposite effect of what they want), they will probably sweep it under the carpet…

 

"But the law has been enacted!", he said. "Yes, now let's see if they actually apply it", I retorted, but he wouldn't have it… until his final week where he started having regrets as he realised that beyond the dozens of hours of talking (mostly done by farangs), nothing is actually happening. I was at the immigration office a couple of months ago, no signs, no leaflets, no staff telling anyone about anything related to it… (This last point is important because all the farangs I have heard talking about it interpret it as "pay tax or leave", i.e. you won't be able to renew your visa… In a way it reminds me of the hordes of people who were adamant that getting the Covid vaccine would be required for a visa, which of course didn't even remotely begin to materialise in any shape or form).

 

Relax, it most likely isn't going to happen, don't do anything and it will go away.

It's an odd social experiment for sure. All it  took was 2 prolific posters to  jump start  the nonsense. 

[chiang mai]

3 hours ago, chiang mai said:

The workforce is 38 million, the average wage is 15k per month, that means 50% of 38 million earn less than the threshold needed to file a return. 19 million below the threshold, plus 11 million who file a return, totals 30 million. There is therefore 8 million who don't file who perhaps should. Actually, the workforce is 36 million so make that 6  million who don't file......next!

Correction: I was curious so I looked it up, the workforce is actually 40 million, according to BOI in 2023, so 10 million who don't file taxes. (Note also: the population is only 66 million)

 

https://www.boi.go.th/index.php?page=demographic&language=en#:~:text=of Provincial Administration-,Labour Force,severance packages%2C and overtime payments.

[chiang mai]

2 hours ago, EVENKEEL said:

It's an odd social experiment for sure. All it  took was 2 prolific posters to  jump start  the nonsense. 

Gosh, I wonder who you're talking about? It can't be me because I averaged only 124 posts a month since I joined, that's lower than even YOU who has made 132 posts since joining, hmmm, a mystery!

[anchadian]

Yes, it's those posters that cannot face the truth

[scottiejohn]

9 hours ago, OJAS said:

 

The only email you're ever likely to receive from the TRD will be one issued bang on the dot at 00:00:01 on 1 April gleefully slapping a 2,000 THB fine on you for missing their 31 March deadline for filing tax returns!😇

I would need to be registered with them in some way for them to send such an e-mail!

[jwest10]

11 hours ago, connda said:

Revenue Department boss calls on tax residents in Thailand to file 2024 returns by March 31

 

Like most expats, 50 million Thai citizens ignore him. 👈 Now - There's reality! 

Yes, unfortunately this is the ex-pats issue and there are some very wealthy Thais that fo not pay taxes or fill in the forms but too easy to go after them and the rich ex-pats

[chiang mai]

7 minutes ago, scottiejohn said:

I would need to be registered with them in some way for them to send such an e-mail!

Do you have a bank account in Thailand?

[Ben Zioner]

9 hours ago, connda said:

Well, except for those rich blokes who love to call the rest of us "Cheap Charlies" while smirking.

While they have an LTR/WP visa...

 

You seem to resent people who retired after a responsible and productive active life.

[mfd101]

6 hours ago, chiang mai said:

The workforce is 38 million, the average wage is 15k per month, that means 50% of 38 million earn less than the threshold needed to file a return. 19 million below the threshold, plus 11 million who file a return, totals 30 million. There is therefore 8 million who don't file who perhaps should. Actually, the workforce is 36 million so make that 6  million who don't file......next!

There are millions of rural poor (and not just in Isaan) who have NO regular income at all (apart from some minor - ie unlivable - government handouts). I support a family of poor uneducated, illiterate Khmer peasants here in Surin (my b/f's family). The (not-fully) extended family amounts to 30+ members. I support some half-a dozen regularly. They have no other income. Their agricultural produce is for living off, not for market. They have no 'salesman' skills.

[The Cyclist]

12 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

Did the TRD lady just put in a big, fat, hairy zero as that was her arbitrary final determination, or was that where the flow of calculations on the worksheet ended up?

 

Let me try and put this in chronological order.

 

Feb 2024 went to small Revenue Office. 2023 Tax resident, no Thai TIN and never filed a tax return in Thailand. In 2023 my remitted income came from 2 Pensions. 1 x Gov Pension not taxable, 1 x Private Pension, on which I would have owed some tax money..

 

I was told no need to file anything. 2024 Tax year I only remitted my Gov Pension.

 

Yesterday I went to the big tax office as it is next door to the car testing place. When in Rome, kill 2 birds with the 1 stone.

 

I asked the question if I needed to file anything as I was tax resident in 2024 and had remitted a Gov Pension that is not taxable in Thailand due to to Thai DTA. She said yes, and I asked her if she could show me what I need to do. She went back to her desk and printed off a PND 91 and came back to the table where I was sitting.

 

She added up my annual remittances and placed the figure in box 1 - I'm with her so far.

 

1. She then started talking deductions and put 100,000 in box 4 as Pension deduction 

 

2. Then puts 60,000 in box 6 as personal deduction 

 

At this stage I'm curious, but cannot really say anything as I'm a virgin on Thai Tax offices or how they work.

 

3. She then starts a mental tax calculation and puts in box 13.

 

I now have the feeling that she has not grasped the concept that my income is non taxable and ask her what is the point of adding deduction and the tax magic when they make no difference to anything. As I said this could be how they work and I had no prior knowledge to base anything.

 

So a bit of a conversation ensues and whether the lights came on and she finally grasped it, or she now wanted rid of me I have no way of knowing.

 

She then put the total figure in box 1 into box 2 and a 0 in boxes 17, 19 & 20.

 

She did insist that I had to file, but told me I could file at the small office, that I went to in Feb 2024, rather than the big Office.

 

Am I any the wiser after yesterday's trip. The answer is no.

 

I'll wait until an updated PND 91 makes an appearance and see if it has a section for exempt income before making any other decisions.

 

Just for anyone that might be confused by my actions. I couldn't really care less whether I have to file or don't have to file. I'm just trying to get a definitive answer, that keeps me on the right side of the Thai tax man.

[chiang mai]

5 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Let me try and put this in chronological order.

 

Feb 2024 went to small Revenue Office. 2023 Tax resident, no Thai TIN and never filed a tax return in Thailand. In 2023 my remitted income came from 2 Pensions. 1 x Gov Pension not taxable, 1 x Private Pension, on which I would have owed some tax money..

 

I was told no need to file anything. 2024 Tax year I only remitted my Gov Pension.

 

Yesterday I went to the big tax office as it is next door to the car testing place. When in Rome, kill 2 birds with the 1 stone.

 

I asked the question if I needed to file anything as I was tax resident in 2024 and had remitted a Gov Pension that is not taxable in Thailand due to to Thai DTA. She said yes, and I asked her if she could show me what I need to do. She went back to her desk and printed off a PND 91 and came back to the table where I was sitting.

 

She added up my annual remittances and placed the figure in box 1 - I'm with her so far.

 

1. She then started talking deductions and put 100,000 in box 4 as Pension deduction 

 

2. Then puts 60,000 in box 6 as personal deduction 

 

At this stage I'm curious, but cannot really say anything as I'm a virgin on Thai Tax offices or how they work.

 

3. She then starts a mental tax calculation and puts in box 13.

 

I now have the feeling that she has not grasped the concept that my income is non taxable and ask her what is the point of adding deduction and the tax magic when they make no difference to anything. As I said this could be how they work and I had no prior knowledge to base anything.

 

So a bit of a conversation ensues and whether the lights came on and she finally grasped it, or she now wanted rid of me I have no way of knowing.

 

She then put the total figure in box 1 into box 2 and a 0 in boxes 17, 19 & 20.

 

She did insist that I had to file, but told me I could file at the small office, that I went to in Feb 2024, rather than the big Office.

 

Am I any the wiser after yesterday's trip. The answer is no.

 

I'll wait until an updated PND 91 makes an appearance and see if it has a section for exempt income before making any other decisions.

 

Just for anyone that might be confused by my actions. I couldn't really care less whether I have to file or don't have to file. I'm just trying to get a definitive answer, that keeps me on the right side of the Thai tax man.

I think the fact the TRD lady didn't challenge or query whether your income was really exempt and was quite happy to write the total amount in the exempt income box, says it all really. TRD, not unsurprisingly, wants to have sight of income that is remitted, even though it may be exempt. It only makes sense that they would since it squares the circle and allows them to give a tick and pass to any remittances they see in your name, knowing you have declared them......that is, declared them as in announced them, even though they are are not taxable. Ask yourself, if you were TRD, what would you want to see. If I was them I would want full disclosure and to see total remittances, regardless of their assessability, because it closes all the loops on that person

[anchadian]

The latest from Benjamin Hart.  About an hour ago.
 

 

[Yumthai]

41 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

I'm just trying to get a definitive answer, that keeps me on the right side of the Thai tax man.

You could go to visit 10 different tax offices and get 10 different answers. The good point is you could select the one that fits you the most.

[ChaiyaTH]

As always just wait and see what happens. That email I got from kasikorn demanding I would sign some documents, I ignored, and all still works perfectly fine.

[Celsius]

Yea.... hard pass on filing that return

 

[anchadian]

10 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

You could go to visit 10 different tax offices and get 10 different answers. The good point is you could select the one that fits you the most.

And this particular office you should record the conversation as a back up.  Just in case.

[Presnock]

14 hours ago, chiang mai said:

I posted the following earlier:

 

The Difference Between PND. 90 and PND. 91?

• PND. 90 is the Personal Income Tax Return form for both foreign nationals and Thai citizens who have assessable income under Sections 40(1) to (8) from multiple sources or a single source. Everyone must file this form by March 31 of every year.
• PND. 91 on the other hand, is the Personal Income Tax Return form for both foreign nationals and Thai citizens who have assessable income under Section 40(1) from employment only. Everyone must file this form by March 31 of every year, just like PND. 90

https://lawyer-vwork.com/en/what-are-pnd-90-91-how-important-to-foreigners/

 

Note: a pension is deemed to be from employment.

I note, and see that these are supposedly quotes from the Thai Revenue Dept concerning the filing of tax forms - I see that it says exactly what I have been reading in the TRD instruction web site plus what I have been reading plush what is mentioned in webinars etc -"assessable" income - and that phrase in English means to me that if one has a US govt or other government civil pension that is not taxable except in one's home country, then that plus SS is not taxable by DTA either, and/or an LTR, one doesn't have to file unless they do have some assessable income.  If like me they have no other income, then filing is not required unless they are changing the rules on not  having ASSESSABLE income.  Until I see that in the TRD, where ALL income whether assessable or not must be reported and filed then I will do nothing.  

[The Cyclist]

12 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

You could go to visit 10 different tax offices and get 10 different answers. The good point is you could select the one that fits you the most.

 

Yes, that is not in doubt, and something that I have mentioned before.

 

The difference is, I dont care about 10 different tax offices. I care what my local tax office has to say.

[Presnock]

14 hours ago, chiang mai said:

It's based on the honor system, you've been told so you need to file (if you do indeed need to file). If you don't file when you should have filed, you can't say you didn't know because ignorance of the law is no excuse....that's the way the system works.

totally agree but it is also my understanding that the Thai revenue dept must inform clearly if ALL income or only assessable income is necessarily reportable.  Funny how well over a year into this new interpretation and we have such little info from the Govt.

[4myr]

20 minutes ago, Presnock said:

I note, and see that these are supposedly quotes from the Thai Revenue Dept concerning the filing of tax forms - I see that it says exactly what I have been reading in the TRD instruction web site plus what I have been reading plush what is mentioned in webinars etc -"assessable" income - and that phrase in English means to me that if one has a US govt or other government civil pension that is not taxable except in one's home country, then that plus SS is not taxable by DTA either, and/or an LTR, one doesn't have to file unless they do have some assessable income.  If like me they have no other income, then filing is not required unless they are changing the rules on not  having ASSESSABLE income.  Until I see that in the TRD, where ALL income whether assessable or not must be reported and filed then I will do nothing.  

 

I agree and stick to this interpretation - if it is not assessable income [prior savings/income before 2024, DTA exempted, investment principal or loss], there is no need to file a tax return, thus having a thai tax ID.

 

Benjamin Hart as always in his video rants beats around the bush as other firms like Sherrings, naming phrases like "assessable", "liable to tax", "pay tax", but not define all cases when you need to file a tax return, other than the obvious ones.

 

Sherrings: https://sherrings.com/foreign-source-income-personal-tax-thailand.html

[Presnock]

13 hours ago, 4myr said:

Thanks for explaining, very helpful!

 

I am a bit clueless in this, please help. 

Is there some online manual/guidance, that exempted income like prior 2024 savings or DTA exemptions need not to be declared?

Is in the online form some sections where you can put notes/comments, as in the paper PND90 of 2023 there is none?

 

well based on the forms as have been reported, they still say "assessab'e income" and exempted income unless it fits one of the examples given if it includes non-assessable income should not be filed on these tax forms.  Why is the phrase "ALL ASSESSABLE INCOME"  even used unless it is the very meaning of what the TRD wants from all the expats.

[Dcheech]

https://www.expattaxthailand.com/thailand-expat-tax-rates-allowances-and-deductions/

Side note - asking for a friend ... and myself. 
The personal deduction is 60K & if over 65 190K. Got that. However a friend ran onto this, from the site linked above. 

"Taxpayers aged 65 or over are entitled to claim an additional personal allowance of 190,000 baht. This is in addition to their 60,000 baht personal allowance."

According to that statement a 65 year old expat would have a personal deduction of 250K.  Is that true?

Thanks
 

[potless]

15 minutes ago, Dcheech said:

Side note - asking for a friend ... and myself. 
The personal deduction is 60K & if over 65 190K. Got that. However 

"Taxpayers aged 65 or over are entitled to claim an additional personal allowance of 190,000 baht. This is in addition to their 60,000 baht personal allowance."

According to that statement a 65 year old expat would have a personal deduction of 250K.  Is that true?

Thanks

According to what I have read, that is true. Someone in receipt of a pension may also claim a deduction of 50% of the pension amount up to a maximum of 100,000 baht. Also, the first 150,000 baht of income is zero rated thus making a potential income of 500,000 baht tax free. 

[4myr]

50 minutes ago, Presnock said:

well based on the forms as have been reported, they still say "assessab'e income" and exempted income unless it fits one of the examples given if it includes non-assessable income should not be filed on these tax forms.  Why is the phrase "ALL ASSESSABLE INCOME"  even used unless it is the very meaning of what the TRD wants from all the expats.

 

Finally, someone like Carl Turner of Expat Tax Thailand is very clear on who needs to file a tax return!

BTW he missed one item as not assessable, income earned before 2024, but TRD Sept 2024 flyer is clear on that: https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/user_upload/lorkhor/newspr/2024/FOREIGNERS_PAY_TAX2024.pdf

 

 

[chiang mai]

22 minutes ago, Dcheech said:

https://www.expattaxthailand.com/thailand-expat-tax-rates-allowances-and-deductions/

Side note - asking for a friend ... and myself. 
The personal deduction is 60K & if over 65 190K. Got that. However a friend ran onto this, from the site linked above. 

"Taxpayers aged 65 or over are entitled to claim an additional personal allowance of 190,000 baht. This is in addition to their 60,000 baht personal allowance."

According to that statement a 65 year old expat would have a personal deduction of 250K.  Is that true?

Thanks
 

Yes

[The Cyclist]

33 minutes ago, Presnock said:

well based on the forms as have been reported, they still say "assessab'e income" and exempted income unless it fits one of the examples given if it includes non-assessable income should not be filed on these tax forms.  Why is the phrase "ALL ASSESSABLE INCOME"  even used unless it is the very meaning of what the TRD wants from all the expats.

 

If we ignore our American contingent for the moment, who have FATCA operating for a good number of years.

 

Non Americans, especially Western Countries, have had no such system in place.

 

From March 2023, Thailand has adopted CRS, which is the OECD equivalent of FATCA.

 

And whilst the information is sketchy at best, sometimes confusing. I still hold the belief that the reporting under CRS by Financial Instutions, including tax department, will require expats in Thailand from CRS member Countries to report remittances into Thailand.

 

The Revenue Department being the obvious choice to do this.

 

Otherwise it makes a mockery of the core aim of CRS, which is to detect and deter,  tax avoidance / evasion.

 

I think the whole thing has been badly worded, badly implimented, and confusion still reigns supreme because it was badly worded and badly implimented.

[JimGant]

14 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

Why don't you visit your local RD Office and let them put you on the right track.

Yeah, that worked really well for you, didn't it. I'm 100% certain you can better interpret your DTA -- and how Por 162 applies to you -- than Somchai at TRD. But, as we all know about Thais -- if you ask Somchai a question, he'll be forced to answer with something, as "I don't know" doesn't exist in the Thai vocabulary. And his answer will most likely be wrong. So, avoid the hassle of asking TRD for advice; most of us can figure out what our non-assessable income is; and, if we break those 120/220k thresholds with assessable income, whether or not to file a tax return (of course, we're also smart enough to know what TEDAs to plug in -- and if we owe taxes, of course we need to file a tax return).

 

But to visit TRD for advice? Naaa. Only plan to talk to Somchai in the unlikely event you're called in for a chat. And, as it's understood you'll prepare your tax return -- if required -- with due dilligence -- what worry could you possibly have?

 

 

[jwest10]

2 hours ago, anchadian said:

The latest from Benjamin Hart.  About an hour ago.
 

 

Yes have seen this but one can not get in to it or 2024 forms and itseems one can not do digital or infact nothing

[jwest10]

37 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

Yes

Forgot the 100k Pension Allpwance and btw still no forms as of 7th January or Exemption forms either?