what money is taxed 2024 ?

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

11 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

In that Pattaya session you mentioned, did Carden say he now believes Roth IRA remittances ARE Thai taxable, or he didn't specifically mention Roths?

 

I believe I found and just watched the YT video on Carden's hour-long Thai tax presentation to the PCEC in January 2025.

 

In his talk, he did briefly mention regular U.S. IRAs. But he made absolutely no mention whatsover of where Roth IRAs would stand under the recent Thai tax moves.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XScNGwqXQm8

 

[JimGant]

On 2/4/2025 at 12:17 AM, NoDisplayName said:

On 2/3/2025 at 11:35 PM, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

I saw a YT video the other day from last fall during which the American tax consultant guy here in BKK (Thomas Carden) said they had been told by someone in the TRD at some point that their general policy was going to be that they would treat tax-exempt instruments from the U.S. as tax exempt in Thailand...

 

Why would they do that if the point of the exercise is to broaden the tax base and bring in more funds?

 

Why would Thailand unilaterally give up taxing rights if they have authority to tax under the DTA?

Why would they do this? Because this is what's now incorporated in the latest OECD and UN Model tax treaties. Kind of an adjunct to no double taxation -- but in this case, no taxation by country B, if no taxation by country A (assuming it's subject to taxation by country A, and not exempt because you're a non resident).

 

The US-UK DTA is the prime example. Written after Roth IRAs were invented (unlike the Thai-US DTA, written before Roth), the US was able to incorporate, via subsequent protocol into the DTA, the following (from the US-UK tech explanation):

Quote

However, the State of residence, under subparagraph (b), must exempt from tax any
amount of such pensions or other similar remuneration that would be exempt from tax in the
State in which the pension scheme is established if the recipient were a resident of that State.
Thus, for example, a distribution from a U.S. "Roth IRA" to a U.K. resident would be exempt
from tax in the United Kingdom to the same extent the distribution would be exempt from tax in
the United States if it were distributed to a US resident.

https://home.treasury.gov/system/files/131/Treaty-UK-Protocol-TE-7-22-2002.pdf

So, this is probably where Carden was coming from -- TRD is looking at doing what the US-UK protocol did re Roth IRAs.

 

But, for now, it's kind of in limbo. The US-Thai DTA has no mention of Roth IRAs (Code section 408a not mentioned), so there's nothing in the DTA that says Roth IRAs are treated the same as Traditional IRAs or private pensions. So how are they treated? I dunno.

 

It wouldn't be that hard for the "competent authorities" (the nomenclature for the folks who can modify DTAs) to do a handshake protocol. Or, even Thailand could go it alone, with a modification of its domestic tax law re Roths, which would be allowed, as it wouldn't violate the DTA policy affecting double taxation. Meanwhile, if you are remitting Roths, I'd do a good screening of the arguments for Por 162 encompassing Roth IRAs -- and feel confident that Roth income is definitely pre 2024 income -- and even more so than traditional IRAs, this income is 'after tax' -- and thus even more solidly considered "savings."

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

4 hours ago, JimGant said:

I'd do a good screening of the arguments for Por 162 encompassing Roth IRAs -- and feel confident that Roth income is definitely pre 2024 income -- and even more so than traditional IRAs, this income is 'after tax' -- and thus even more solidly considered "savings."

 

Jim, thanks for the interesting excerpt above about how the more recent US-UK DTA treats non-taxable accounts like US Roths from one country when the accountholder is living in the other country... Not taxable!

 

Quote

Meanwhile, if you are remitting Roths, I'd do a good screening of the arguments for Por 162 encompassing Roth IRAs -- and feel confident that Roth income is definitely pre 2024 income -- and even more so than traditional IRAs, this income is 'after tax' -- and thus even more solidly considered "savings."

 

Jim, about this comment you made, and for others reading here, the advice currently being given out by the Expat Tax Thailand firm regarding pre-2024 income being remitted into Thailand as being exempt from Thai taxation under the TRD's 2023 policy changes (not Thai laws, because there's been no new laws on all this) strikes me as being very peculiar.

 

Their take -- and I haven't seen them explain their basis for this interpretation -- is that ONLY pre-2024 income held in home country BANK accounts is exempt from Thai taxation if remitted, even though the original TRD policy statements made no such limitation AFAICT. And thus by ETT's interpretation, they seem to have opined that if someone kept/had a couple hundred thousand dollars in a regular U.S. BROKERAGE account as of 12/31/2023, that NONE of that could be treated as tax exempt pre-2024 savings!!!

 

I don't understand that notion at all... But I do expect to be talking to them about that interpretation in the coming week.

 

FWIW, they seem to have the same interpretation about nominally Thai tax-exempt funds received by inheritance. They seem to be saying if an expat received an inheritance into their foreign bank account(s) and kept it there only, then it would be tax exempt for Thai purposes if ever remitted into Thailand. But if that same person took the inheritance sometime prior to 2024 and moved it into a brokerage account, then somehow, the Thai tax exemption for inheritance would no longer apply. Likewise, that seems to be nonsensical, at least to me.

 

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Jim, thanks for the interesting excerpt above about how the more recent US-UK DTA treats non-taxable accounts like US Roths from one country when the accountholder is living in the other country... Not taxable!

 

 

Jim, about this comment you made, and for others reading here, the advice currently being given out by the Expat Tax Thailand firm regarding pre-2024 income being remitted into Thailand as being exempt from Thai taxation under the TRD's 2023 policy changes (not Thai laws, because there's been no new laws on all this) strikes me as being very peculiar.

 

Their take -- and I haven't seen them explain their basis for this interpretation -- is that ONLY pre-2024 income held in home country BANK accounts is exempt from Thai taxation if remitted, even though the original TRD policy statements made no such limitation AFAICT. And thus by ETT's interpretation, they seem to have opined that if someone kept/had a couple hundred thousand dollars in a regular U.S. BROKERAGE account as of 12/31/2023, that NONE of that could be treated as tax exempt pre-2024 savings!!!

 

I don't understand that notion at all... But I do expect to be talking to them about that interpretation in the coming week.

 

FWIW, they seem to have the same interpretation about nominally Thai tax-exempt funds received by inheritance. They seem to be saying if an expat received an inheritance into their foreign bank account(s) and kept it there only, then it would be tax exempt for Thai purposes if ever remitted into Thailand. But if that same person took the inheritance sometime prior to 2024 and moved it into a brokerage account, then somehow, the Thai tax exemption for inheritance would no longer apply. Likewise, that seems to be nonsensical, at least to me.

 

About the brokerage account aspect.

A brokerage account might have a cash bucket part in it.

Perhaps a money market fund or something like that.

I don't think that firm has opined on whether TRD would accept that cash bucket part the same way as cash in a regular non-brokerage bank account. Someone should ask them. It seems a grey area.

[Jingthing]

I saw another video today which raised a new question for me.

It said health insurance premiums could be used as deductions (or credits?) or whatever the term  for that is in Thailand.

But then it said something vague about health expenses which sounded to me like any out of pocket health care expense which if you're not covered could be a massive amount of money for hospitalization, etc. But then it said there were LIMITS on the amounts. But then didn't give the limits!

 

Does anyone have more specific information about that?

[NoDisplayName]

28 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I saw another video today which raised a new question for me.

It said health insurance premiums could be used as deductions (or credits?) or whatever the term  for that is in Thailand.

But then it said something vague about health expenses which sounded to me like any out of pocket health care expense which if you're not covered could be a massive amount of money for hospitalization, etc. But then it said there were LIMITS on the amounts. But then didn't give the limits!

 

Does anyone have more specific information about that?

 

There are allowances on the tax forms to deduct health and life insurance premiums (I think total max 100K?), but premiums must be paid to a Thai insurance company.

 

See page 5 of the tax return, the allowances/exemptions attachment, line 7.  Once totaled, they are deducted on the tax calculation, No. 11(2)

 

https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/download/english_form/2023/attach9091_220367.pdf

 

 

[topt]

11 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

I don't understand that notion at all... But I do expect to be talking to them about that interpretation in the coming week.

Please update us on their reasoning if you can. I think many would be interested. 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

21 minutes ago, topt said:

Please update us on their reasoning if you can. I think many would be interested. 

 

That's my plan!

 

FWIW, I've been going thru all of the many Thai tax video presentations by the various law firms and expat tax advisors giving their interpretations of what's going on... which to say the least, is still in some flux.

 

Expat Tax Thailand, based on the various statements of their spokesman, seems to have the view that once you move funds from one original type of account to another type of account, those funds lose the protections that might have existed in the original account.

 

[topt]

1 minute ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

Expat Tax Thailand, based on the various statements of their spokesman, seems to have the view that once you move funds from one original type of account to another type of account, those funds lose the protections that might have existed in the original account.

Yes I understand that but as you said I am interested in why. Also if you have cash in a brokerage account and can prove it was there as cash pre 2024 (and leave it as cash) why is that not the same as cash in a bank account.......

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

10 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

There are allowances on the tax forms to deduct health and life insurance premiums (I think total max 100K?), but premiums must be paid to a Thai insurance company.

 

I believe it's a potential deduction of up to 25K baht for premium expenses to have a Thai company health insurance policy... And then separately, the larger amount for certain Thai company life insurance policies...including I believe, that  their term has to be at least 10 years.

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

19 minutes ago, topt said:

 Also if you have cash in a brokerage account and can prove it was there as cash pre 2024 (and leave it as cash) why is that not the same as cash in a bank account.......

 

That's the million dollar question. Nothing I could find in the original TRD statements suggest otherwise. But somehow, ETT seems to be claiming, based on their various YT presentation videos, that TRD now has the other interpretation -- that the pre  2024 funds have to have been kept as cash in bank accounts and not brokerage accounts  in order to be tax exempt under the new rules.

 

[JimGant]

11 hours ago, Jingthing said:

I don't think that firm has opined on whether TRD would accept that cash bucket part the same way as cash in a regular non-brokerage bank account. Someone should ask them.

I think Guavaman aleady did, in a call to the TRD hotline:

Quote

Q6: Is a statement from a financial institution that is a stock brokerage acceptable evidence to show cash income derived prior to 1 January 2024 in a brokerage account as of 31 December 2023?

A6: A statement from a financial institution that is a stock brokerage is acceptable evidence to show cash income derived prior to 1 January 2024 in a brokerage account as of 31 December 2023.

 

 

[JimGant]

39 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

But somehow, ETT seems to be claiming, based on their various YT presentation videos

They do show some integrity, with this disclaimer, that their BS "should not be relied upon for personal tax decisions." Amen

 

Quote

Disclaimer: The content provided in this webinar is intended for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional tax advice. Our materials are designed to offer general guidance on tax-related matters and should not be relied upon for personal tax decisions.

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

28 minutes ago, JimGant said:

I think Guavaman aleady did, in a call to the TRD hotline:

 

Thanks again, jim, for the link to that... I hadn't seen it previously... as the volume of posting on this topic over the months grew far beyond my ability or willingness to keep up...

 

But, I'm not sure what exactly to make of the somewhat tortured language used in the exchange below:

 

 

Was Guavaman trying to ask only about the dollar value of cash balances only as held in brokerage accounts as of the end of 2023?  And did the TRD rep understand his question to mean that? I honestly can't tell/be certain from the way the question was posed verbally in their exchange, and then later written  up here by Guavaman.

 

I had balances in my brokerage accounts as of the end of 2023 that were mostly held in stocks/funds, etc., and some in cash. In order to acquire those stocks pre 2024, I had to use my pre-2024 cash savings  to acquire them. And those securities has a cash value as stated as of the end of 2023.  Is someone trying to claim those securities holdings didn't somehow represent my pre-2024 savings???

 

[NoDisplayName]

1 hour ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

Expat Tax Thailand, based on the various statements of their spokesman, seems to have the view that once you move funds from one original type of account to another type of account, those funds lose the protections that might have existed in the original account.

 

That could work to our benefit, as well.

 

This year's rental income can be used to purchase a Trump memecoin and voila!, it's no longer income, it's a capital asset.

 

Then it can be sold for cost, and voila! again, now it becomes savings with no gain!

 

How are they going to track what any specific remittance is, and somehow match it to transactions that occurred years in the past?

 

I don't think they thought out their plan to become the hub of tax interpretations, as they apparently believe rich foreigners all keep their money in physical bank vaults, and visit once a month to take their heirs swimming in gold coins.

 

[NoDisplayName]

37 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

I had balances in my brokerage accounts as of the end of 2023 that were mostly held in stocks/funds, etc., and some in cash. In order to acquire those stocks pre 2024, I had to use my pre-2024 cash savings  to acquire them. And those securities has a cash value as stated as of the end of 2023.  Is someone trying to claim those securities holdings didn't somehow represent my pre-2024 savings???

 

Some of the taxspurts have said this sort of remittance would of course not be savings.  You would be remitting a sum consisting of part capital gains and part initial capital.

 

The problem is how to account for this.  ALL examples we've seen are simplistic, remitting the entire proceeds of the sale.  There is no explanation of how to account for partial sales, or how to declare partial remittances.

 

Some have said various accounting methods may be used, but of course, there's never a real-world example provided.  Some have stated that partial remittance of a complete sale of a holding would be part capital and part gain, again with no example given.

 

There's been no official word that when we sell a holding, we can't separate the capital from the gain, remit the capital (at what cost basis???), and retain the gain in our offshore accounts.

 

We haven't been told what the cost basis should be........is it the cost of stock purchased in 2013, or is it NAV at COB 31 Dec 2023?  I don't plan on paying tax on a decade's worth of unrealized gains, pre-2024, while NOT tax resident.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

13 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

How are they going to track what any specific remittance is, and somehow match it to transactions that occurred years in the past?

 

I don't think they thought out their plan to become the hub of tax interpretations, as they apparently believe rich foreigners all keep their money in physical bank vaults, and visit once a month to take their heirs swimming in gold coins.

 

Good points...

 

ETT, on that point, has been advising expats to keep good financial statement records going back up to 5 years to document the sources and flows of funds that they want to claim as tax-exempt for whatever reason... with 5 years apparently being the back period that TRD can examine in the event they pursue an audit.

 

There has been multitudes of opinions expressed by the various tax advisers saying that this whole thing has been rushed thru without adequate or clear rules and interpretations, and with RTD interpretations that have changed over time.

 

Lately, for example, Thomas Carden has been claiming that originally TRD told them that foreign card ATM withdrawals would NOT be counted as taxable foreign remittances... But as of December, Carden has been saying TRD has changed their view on that and now says that ATM withdrawals WOULD be considered foreign remittances if the source funds were from non-exempt sources.

 

Likewise,  with the issue of using foreign credit cards to pay for things here, apparently, there's absolutely nothing in writing and no formal guidance at all from TRD on that subject even now. But the various advisers seem to be warning that expats shouldn't rely on that, and that some TRD opinion on that issue may well be forthcoming at some future point.

 

E.g. -- they're kind of making things up as they go along.

 

And from what the various advisor folks are saying, it sounds like the TRD online web forms for the 2024 TY still don't have any method for entering in actually remitted income that is/was legally  tax exempt. So Carden has been  talking about them having to append a written statement with the online filing disclosing the tax exempt remittances, so as to avoid the potential for TRD later claiming those remittances were made but not disclosed.

 

 

 

[NoDisplayName]

17 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

So Carden has been  talking about them having to append a written statement with the online filing disclosing the tax exempt remittances, so as to avoid the potential for TRD later claiming those remittances were made but not disclosed.

 

Append when?

 

Last time I checked (disclaimer, just now!)  45% of this tax filing season is gone.

 

No new forms are coming out, and no new requirements are going to be added.

 

They could potentially add this for NEXT year, but it'll have to be for ALL taxpayers.

 

Consider the implications for millions of THAI taxpayers now being required to attach documentation of their remittances.  All the foreign workers, all the berry pickers, all the soi girls with multiple boyfriends, all the sick buffalo emergency blood transfusion payments!

 

Hub of thinking before acting.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

15 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

Append when?

 

Carden just was talking about Thai tax filings that his firm will be doing this season for expats who have remitted TAX EXEMPT foreign funds into Thailand during 2024.

 

Rather than simply omitting any mention of those, since the online Thai tax forms for 2024 reportedly provide no ability to report TAX EXEMPT remittances, he's been saying that his firm plans to attach a document file with the online filing reporting the TAX EXEMPT remittances and the basis for them being tax exempt.

 

His argument has been that doing so protects the filer from the TRD coming along later and challenging the tax exempt status of the funds and claiming the filer failed to report the remittances....

 

Don't shoot the messenger. I'm just reporting what he's been saying in his various YT presentations/interviews.

 

The above potentially becomes an issue, Carden  says, because of the emerging cross-border financial info that Thailand's revenue department is obtaining from other countries, and sharing their data to other countries via the CRS agreements.

 

Under CRS, the remittances of what Thailand would consider as tax exempt funds would be reported by the other countries to Thailand as merely  foreign remittances, since those other countries sharing info with Thailand wouldn't know what Thailand does or does not consider tax exempt.

 

For example, via FATCA, the U.S. might share to Thailand that I, hypothetically, did monthly wire transfers from my U.S. account to Thailand of $1000 each month. But, that FATCA reporting wouldn't necessarily say that the source of those funds was my Social Security benefit or that such remittances are by tax treaty exempt from  Thai taxation. The U.S. would just report, and Thailand would be told, that I sent $1000 a month from the U.S. to Thailand. So then what's the TRD going todo with that kind of reporting.

 

 

 

[NoDisplayName]

7 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

Carden just was talking about Thai tax filings that his firm will be doing this season for expats who have remitted TAX EXEMPT foreign funds into Thailand during 2024.

 

Yes, we know your US social security is exempt and you aren't even required to apply for a TIN, but............gosh, those meanies at the TRD could arrest you and put you in debtors prison!  Better pay us to file a tax return!

 

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

4 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

Yes, we know your US social security is exempt and you aren't even required to apply for a TIN, but............gosh, those meanies at the TRD could arrest you and put you in debtors prison!  Better pay us to file a tax return

 

 

The various tax advisors guidance that expats ought to play on the safe side and over-report and/or get a TIN and do a Thai tax filing even when it arguably isn't required just happens to nicely coincide with them charging 8K, 12K, 14K THB per expat tax filing that they do.

[Jingthing]

As far as "cash" in a brokerage account on Dec. 31. 2023, I'm not convinced this is settled yet.

Why?

Because it's almost never just cash. It's usually cash in some kind of investment vehicle such as an interest paying money market fund.

So this might be a lost in translation type thing when communicating with TRD.

It's not an issue for me but if it was I'm guessing it wouldn't be super risky to claim that the same as cash in the bank and if audited you could at least show that your understanding was that it was cash. Unless you're talking really big money I doubt that would become a punitive type of situation. But up to you.

[Jingthing]

So to confirm, credit for "health" stuff is limited to health and life insurance and would not apply to a hospital bill that you paid out of pocket. Correct?

[Sheryl]

16 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

So to confirm, credit for "health" stuff is limited to health and life insurance and would not apply to a hospital bill that you paid out of pocket. Correct?

Correct.

 

And only to health and life insurance ftom Thai companies  

[Jingthing]

5 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

Correct.

 

And only to health and life insurance ftom Thai companies  

Oh great! So a foreigner remits 5 million baht to save his life in a Thai hospital and then needs to pay a very high tax rate if he does survive. Yes, lots of people either don't have insurance and/or can't get covered because of preexisting conditions. I think this might become a growing GOOD reason to leave Thailand because of taxation. This has occurred to me before but haven't heard anyone mention it yet. Expats without insurance for good or bad reasons, this is really something to think about. 

[oldcpu]

17 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Oh great! So a foreigner remits 5 million baht to save his life in a Thai hospital and then needs to pay a very high tax rate if he does survive. Yes, lots of people either don't have insurance and/or can't get covered because of preexisting conditions. I think this might become a growing GOOD reason to leave Thailand because of taxation. This has occurred to me before but haven't heard anyone mention it yet. Expats without insurance for good or bad reasons, this is really something to think about. 

In regards to the quality of hospitals in different South East Asian countries. Singapore and Thailand have the best hospitals.

 

After that, in order of decreasing quality are Malaysia, Philippines,  and Vietnam. So if leaving Thailand,  but staying in South East Asia,  that may be a consideration.

 

[Jingthing]

4 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

In regards to the quality of hospitals in different South East Asian countries. Singapore and Thailand have the best hospitals.

 

After that, in order of decreasing quality are Malaysia, Philippines,  and Vietnam. So if leaving Thailand,  but staying in South East Asia,  that may be a consideration.

 

Singapore isn't a retirement magnet.

KL has great hospitals but a higher bar for retirement.

Manila also has great hospitals.

Vietnam no retirement visa.

There are many other options other places as well. Europe, Latin America. etc.

In some places you can actually enter into a decent national health care system (Colombia for example but bad for taxation).

Panama for example no taxation on non Panama income or assets.

[Sheryl]

There are some good private hospitals in VN and for that matter quality of care in tertiary govt hospitals is also good.

 

At much lower costs than Thailand.

 

But not so easy for English speakers to access.

 

 

Where health care should be a big concern is for those thinking of Cambodia. 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

Oh great! So a foreigner remits 5 million baht to save his life in a Thai hospital and then needs to pay a very high tax rate if he does survive. Yes, lots of people either don't have insurance and/or can't get covered because of preexisting conditions. I think this might become a growing GOOD reason to leave Thailand because of taxation. This has occurred to me before but haven't heard anyone mention it yet. Expats without insurance for good or bad reasons, this is really something to think about. 

 

Re your 5 MB example, the tax advisor folks have been saying the same kind of thing about Thai property purchases.

 

If you move in 5 MB THB of otherwise non-exempted foreign funds in a year where you're a Thai tax resident (180+ days of presence in the calendar year), you're gonna be on the hook for Thai tax on that amount.

 

In the real estate example, their typical response/answer has been to say, leave Thailand so that you're NOT going to be present for 180+ days in that calendar year, then you can bring in all the foreign funds you want without Thai taxation.

 

Of course, that notion doesn't work so well if one is sick and/or hospitalized, and not likely to be relocating countries for 6+ months!!!

[JimGant]

4 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

For example, via FATCA, the U.S. might share to Thailand that I, hypothetically, did monthly wire transfers from my U.S. account to Thailand of $1000 each month.

FATCA reports income, not remittances. You think FATCA was reworded to accomodate weirdo countries like Thailand and Malta, the only two countries that tax remittances, not income per se. Nope. FATCA only looks at income -- to include Thailand and Malta.