Thai tax tangle: Expats warned of new rules on overseas income

[MikeandDow]

2 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

I could take in 450,000 baht without declaration from Laos, Cambodia or Myanmar. 

yes!! as i said i dont use the banks here cash only

[Neeranam]

2 minutes ago, MikeandDow said:

yes

I think I'll take a trip to Laos to sell my gold, which I buy with my foreign credit/crypto card.

[pchansmorn]

10 hours ago, Card said:

It doesn't matter how u transfer cash,  or in what currency, Thai baht or dollars. It's the source of the funds that's important. Using a fireign credit card fir goods and services in thailabd means it is assessable. Whether it's taxable earnings depends on its source.

So if I already pay US taxes I should not be liable for paying Thai taxes too. My Social Security income that I live on in Thailand should not be taxed by the Thai government also.  Are these both correct statements?  Other than my 25,000 thousand for my retirement visa I don’t keep any money in Thailand. Patrick 

[aussienam]

25 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

You will also have to keep an eye out this. 

 

Plenty on the internet about it, and plenty of debate about it in the Australia Forum.  It's in the mail. 

 

Non resident tax is 30% from $0 to $135,000.   Note, that's from the first dollar.  No tax free threshold.   

 

https://hlb.com.au/tax-residency-changes-for-individuals/

 

Basically, Australia will change its 90 year old tax residency laws to a time based and physical presence model, like Thailand.

 

Outside of Australia for 183 days, non resident for for tax purposes.   

 

 

Various YouTube channels with a number of alleged tax experts/financial advisors who basically have interpreted the DTA with Australia and Thailand (a d other nations).  Reading Article 18 and 19, if you had a private pension that was not listed as one of those that is tax-exempt (military pensions, certain civil service pensions) then yes, according to certain interpretations, you'd be potentially liable for tax if you remitted a private Australian pension, considering private pensions in Oz are tax-exempt.

Other issues too such as franking credits from dividends seems not to be recognised in Thailand.

Also, selling your property and being Capital Gains Tax exempt or the 50% discount for investment properties - not recognised it appears to me in Thailand.  What about investment property income and tax credits from running costs, fees, depreciation, etc?  These all reduce your tax liability in Oz. Recognised in Thailand?  Plus our tax year is different to Thailand, so what about those who do not prepay tax,rather wait till their accountant lodges the return to the Australian Tax Office? What do we do?  Get a half-year tax assessment in Oz?  I could go on. Just so much confusion and uncertainty and potentially very costly double/triple accountant and notarization fees (on certifying documents) and a ton of stress and time, if this all goes ahead.  

If it goes ahead, many I am predicting, will just leave Thailand permanently.  

[Burma Bill]

23 hours ago, sungod said:

A lively debate where everyone left more confused than when they arrived no doubt.

 

With respect, I am not surprised if the Americans organised the debate!

[Lingba]

23 hours ago, MikeandDow said:

They will have to be knocking on my door before i fill out any of there BS

I SECOND THAT

[anrcaccount]

1 hour ago, Card said:

You don't understand common reporting standards do you? All your financial dealings are recorded. You bring in foreign currency in your baggage? Where will u exchange it in thailand? Forex dealings require your passport. Where will you get Thai baht to bring into the country? In a foreign bank, of course and your foreign bank is obligated to transfer all your financial dealings with the thai tax authorities! Tax evasion is a serious crime in thailand involving enormous fines and imprisonment and exile. Is tax evasion really worth it?

 

 

No, it's you who doesn't understand the CRS. It's not "all your financial dealings"  Educate yourself. Here's some facts to help you: 

 

CRS Source: https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/user_upload/FATCA_File/crs/Thailand_CRS_Guidance_280823.pdf

 

Table 4 ( page 60) it defines exactly what financial information is shared which is only once yearly, aggregate account balances, does not include individual transactions, excepting the cases of income as specified in table 5. Regarding the inaccurate info you've posted regarding credit cards, you can see there is no way this information shared can include individual foreign credit card (or ATM) transactions.  

 

In addition , the CRS reporting obligations have nothing to with remitted income, nor that remitted income being reported to a tax authority. 

 

Unfortunately, CRS has become a term used, in a scaremongering fashion, being pushed by Thai 'expat' tax experts, in order to drive demand for their services, along with fitting in nicely with the worldview of the those who believe there's an eye on their every transaction. 
 

[Neeranam]

Would you believe it? Just done a search in Thai and there is absolutely NOTHING in the internet about foreign retirees having to pay income tax in Thailand! proves beyond reasonable doubt that these charlatan companies, as well as English press, are causing undue concern for financial gain, or clicks. 

[Card]

25 minutes ago, MikeandDow said:

It has NOT happened Yet !! so how can you get around something if it has not happend Duh!!!

 

 

25 minutes ago, MikeandDow said:

It has NOT happened Yet !! so how can you get around something if it has not happend Duh!!!

So as its not happened yet, how can you claim it can be gotten around. Durgggh!

[maddox41]

It's a wait and see? approach 

Just like the no smoking 10m from a doorway last 3 months 

No parking a bike on the footpath  lasted 1 month 

No street vendors in BKk lasted  1 week 

The points system for driving  did that ever  happen? 

If  you hava a DTA  show your tax paperwork for that yr to them when they are  knocking on your door and say mate I have paid my tax in my country  this yr and close the door. 

And if extending your visa it may only be the sticking point until you see it on the immigration paper work they have no leg to stand on. 

OR go as long as you can and see if you get that knock on the door 

 

[MikeandDow]

9 minutes ago, Card said:

 

 

So as its not happened yet, how can you claim it can be gotten around. Durgggh!

Because Everything In Thailand is corupt

[KhunHeineken]

32 minutes ago, aussienam said:

He also has stated that the changes announced are still not a forgone conclusion and is potentially causing people unnecessary financial harm by scaring them into applying for a Thai tax ID. 

From another thread. 

 

"The Director-General of the Revenue Department on Thursday called on taxpayers to file their end-of-year returns for 2024. This will be the first year that all foreign residents in Thailand are included. Changes to tax regulations in 2023 make all income remitted to Thailand by foreign residents in the country for over 180 days last year declarable."

 

Three things stand out to me in his statement.

 

"all foreign residents are included"  - note the word ALL.

 

"changes to tax regulations in 2023 make all income remitted" - not the word ALL again.  

 

"The Director General of the Revenue Department on Thursday called" -  Note the words DIRECTOR GENERAL.    

 

Who do you think has more control over this policy, the Director General, or the staff of Integrity Legal? 

[shortstop2]

23 minutes ago, pchansmorn said:

My Social Security income that I live on in Thailand should not be taxed by the Thai government also.

Social Security is specifically excluded from being taxed in Thailand by a USA-Thailand  bilateral tax treaty, Article 20.   

 

https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-trty/thailand.pdf

 

I suppose in case of a potential audit, you would want to make sure that the remittance into Thailand is coded correctly.

[fleccer]

We are already taxed thanks to the super Baht which is losing the purchasing power of your money and I consider this as a tax

[KhunHeineken]

23 minutes ago, aussienam said:

Various YouTube channels with a number of alleged tax experts/financial advisors who basically have interpreted the DTA with Australia and Thailand (a d other nations).  Reading Article 18 and 19, if you had a private pension that was not listed as one of those that is tax-exempt (military pensions, certain civil service pensions) then yes, according to certain interpretations, you'd be potentially liable for tax if you remitted a private Australian pension, considering private pensions in Oz are tax-exempt.

Yes, that's Thailand sorted.

 

Now, are they tax exempt for residents and non resident for tax purposes, or just residents???? 

 

25 minutes ago, aussienam said:

Other issues too such as franking credits from dividends seems not to be recognised in Thailand.

As I have said before, at 30% from $0, Thai tax may be the least of Aussie expat's problems. 

 

27 minutes ago, aussienam said:

What about investment property income and tax credits from running costs, fees, depreciation, etc?  These all reduce your tax liability in Oz. Recognised in Thailand? 

That's where the DTA comes it.  It makes sure the same money isn't taxed twice, but it is taxed, and can be taxed by both countries.  

 

29 minutes ago, aussienam said:

Plus our tax year is different to Thailand, so what about those who do not prepay tax,rather wait till their accountant lodges the return to the Australian Tax Office? What do we do? 

You pay your non resident tax liability in Australia after the 1st July, and your remitted funds tax liability in Thailand after the 1st January. 

 

30 minutes ago, aussienam said:

Just so much confusion and uncertainty and potentially very costly double/triple accountant and notarization fees (on certifying documents) and a ton of stress and time, if this all goes ahead.  

If it goes ahead, many I am predicting, will just leave Thailand permanently.  

I agree, but I don't think permanently.  I think many will do the 179 days in Thailand, and the rest of the year elsewhere. 

 

That leads to another question, how long before other countries follow Thailand and implement the same policy?  No where to run, no where to hide. 

[ukrules]

10 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Changes to tax regulations in 2023 make all income remitted to Thailand by foreign residents in the country for over 180 days last year declarable.

 

And that right there is why I spent only about 175 days in Thailand in 2024.
 

[EVENKEEL]

9 hours ago, Thingamabob said:

There are indeed strong rumours that it is foreign tax advisers who are trying to sell tougher tax regulations to the TRD in order to create additional business for themselves from concerned expats. 

The poster who started the tax threads is now MIA. Funny how he posted a list of tax consultants on here.

[Card]

54 minutes ago, anrcaccount said:

 

 

No, it's you who doesn't understand the CRS. It's not "all your financial dealings"  Educate yourself. Here's some facts to help you: 

 

CRS Source: https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/user_upload/FATCA_File/crs/Thailand_CRS_Guidance_280823.pdf

 

Table 4 ( page 60) it defines exactly what financial information is shared which is only once yearly, aggregate account balances, does not include individual transactions, excepting the cases of income as specified in table 5. Regarding the inaccurate info you've posted regarding credit cards, you can see there is no way this information shared can include individual foreign credit card (or ATM) transactions.  

 

In addition , the CRS reporting obligations have nothing to with remitted income, nor that remitted income being reported to a tax authority. 

 

Unfortunately, CRS has become a term used, in a scaremongering fashion, being pushed by Thai 'expat' tax experts, in order to drive demand for their services, along with fitting in nicely with the worldview of the those who believe there's an eye on their every transaction. 
 

I absolutely take your point but remember the reports include details of the following for every individual account you have in both participant countries of the DTA, including credit card accounts. This means the Thai authorities can query us on any payments into the cc accounts to pay off the loan if they suspect the loan involved payment in Thailand.

What information will be reported to tax authorities?

The information reported to tax authorities will have been provided in the self-certification form, and details about the accounts and products you have, including:

• the balance or value
• the total amounts of interest or payments credited

[NoDisplayName]

1 hour ago, Presnock said:

earlier thsi month, an officIAL of the trd or finance ministry said all folks need to file income taxes he specifically mentioned expats and foreign tax residents will need to file for taxes

 

If that was the article in the Examiner, then no, the TRD official never once mentioned foreigners.  He was simply advising taxpayers to file taxes if they are required to.

 

Everything else about foreigners and tax changes was added by the "journalist" to spice up the article.

[NoDisplayName]

43 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

From another thread. 

 

"The Director-General of the Revenue Department on Thursday called on taxpayers to file their end-of-year returns for 2024. This will be the first year that all foreign residents in Thailand are included. Changes to tax regulations in 2023 make all income remitted to Thailand by foreign residents in the country for over 180 days last year declarable."

 

Three things stand out to me in his statement.

 

"all foreign residents are included"  - note the word ALL.

 

"changes to tax regulations in 2023 make all income remitted" - not the word ALL again.  

 

"The Director General of the Revenue Department on Thursday called" -  Note the words DIRECTOR GENERAL.    

 

Who do you think has more control over this policy, the Director General, or the staff of Integrity Legal? 

 

None of that is a quote from the director general.  All of that is the "journalist's" addition of interesting but irrelevant padding needed to reach a specified word count.

 

Do note that "Changes to tax regulations in 2023 make all income remitted to Thailand by foreign residents in the country for over 180 days last year declarable" is false.

[Neeranam]

24 minutes ago, Card said:

I absolutely take your point but remember the reports include details of the following for every individual account you have in both participant countries of the DTA, including credit card accounts.

What information will be reported to tax authorities?

The information reported to tax authorities will have been provided in the self-certification form, and details about the accounts and products you have, including:

• the balance or value
• the total amounts of interest or payments credited

I wonder if tax officers/bankers in US/UK/oz can write Thai?  

[KhunHeineken]

3 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

None of that is a quote from the director general.  All of that is the "journalist's" addition of interesting but irrelevant padding needed to reach a specified word count.

 

Do note that "Changes to tax regulations in 2023 make all income remitted to Thailand by foreign residents in the country for over 180 days last year declarable" is false.

Has the journalist been arrested for misquoting the Director General? 

[KhunHeineken]

13 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

If that was the article in the Examiner, then no, the TRD official never once mentioned foreigners.  He was simply advising taxpayers to file taxes if they are required to.

 

Everything else about foreigners and tax changes was added by the "journalist" to spice up the article.

Were you at the press conference?  If not, what is your source? 

[KhunHeineken]

43 minutes ago, ukrules said:

 

And that right there is why I spent only about 175 days in Thailand in 2024.
 

I'm sure you are sleeping a lot better than many others.  It's the easiest way to take the whole thing out of the equation and be tax and stress free.  I very well may be doing the same this year. 

[NoDisplayName]

5 hours ago, samtam said:

I am not clear whether the P.N.D.90 allows one to claim withholding tax refund, or whether I will have to file a P.N.D.91

 PN90 is for income from other sources and employment, PN91 is for income only from employment.  You can claim a refund of interest/dividend taxes withheld on the PN90.

5 hours ago, samtam said:

I will file online tomorrow using the TIN

You can file online without documentation.  If you file in person you "may" need a bank tax withholding statement.  I filed online without, unaware of anyone who filed in person yet and needed that.

 

To claim the refund, you will have to enter total interest received, total tax withheld, and you will need the taxpayer number of the bank.  You can find the bank TIN on documents you received when you opened the account. 

 

You'll need this number later!  When you log on later to check status and want to print returns or receipts, the pop-up box will ask for a taxpayer number.  Not your number, that won't be accepted............you enter the TIN of one of the financial institutions you listed as withholding tax.

 

You could file in person, the helpful staff will fill out the form for you. 

5 hours ago, samtam said:

including use of foreign credit cards not considered as tax assessable

How much did you charge on credit cards?  If you're not over the filing threshold with assessable remitted income, it shouldn't affect your return.  I'm not aware of any office requiring credit card transactions be declared.  Standard practice currently seems to be ignore it.

 

***THE PRECEDING IS OPINION ONLY.  NOT ADVICE.  NOT FOR RESALE***

[KhunHeineken]

2 minutes ago, TheAppletons said:

 

  +66 827 176 699

 

  https://www.thaitaxis.com/#:~:text=direct booking on thai taxis,tel-line-whatssapp ).

Do you deny it will be financially beneficial for some here to become non tax residents of Thailand? 

[TheAppletons]

1 hour ago, KhunHeineken said:

Do you deny it will be financially beneficial for some here to become non tax residents of Thailand? 

 

  Not at all.  Just trying to facilitate your imminent departure.  

 

  I'm helpful like that.

[NoDisplayName]

21 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Has the journalist been arrested for misquoting the Director General? 

 

Here is a link to the article in question.

 

There are NO quotes from the director general.

None.

Not one.

 

A few short paraphrases, and a whole lot of filler.

This is infotainment.

 

https://www.thaiexaminer.com/thai-news-foreigners/2025/01/03/revenue-department-boss-calls-on-tax-residents-in-thailand-to-file-2024-runs-by-the-march-31st-deadline/

[KhunHeineken]

5 minutes ago, TheAppletons said:

 

  Not at all.  Just trying to facilitate your imminent departure.  

 

  I'm helpful like that.

 

1161

 

https://www.rd.go.th/english/30195.html

 

Just trying to facilitate your imminent paying money for nothing. 

 

I'm helpful like that also. 

[BeastOfBodmin]

5 hours ago, Expat68 said:

I am pretty sure there are other deductables before you get to that figure 

Could be. I just wanted to point out the tax calculator and the tax tables.