Thai tax tangle: Expats warned of new rules on overseas income

[Wyabcp]

On 1/16/2025 at 3:49 AM, Briggsy said:

In the UK, there is no necessity to complete a tax return unless you yourself have registered for self-assessment. Examples of those who register for self-assessment are the self-employed with a turnover of at least £1000 per year or high earners with a total income in excess of £100,000.

 

Once you have registered for self-assessment, the penalties just pile up if you do not submit a tax return.

 

If you have not registered for self-assessment, nothing happens and you are left alone unless HMRC gain some information that you should have registered for self-assessment or have some untaxed income.

 

Actually more often in the UK, HMRC actively de-register from self-assessment when there is no tax owing and no need for a tax return to reduce administration.

Would it be better to have a self assessment ? so that you can prove what tax is already paid in UK ?

[oldcpu]

18 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

Filed online 2023, no documentation requested.  Refund refunded.

 

Filed online 2024, also no documentation needed to file and be approved.  But ten days later received a request for a bank withholding statement. 

 

Apologies - I can't recall and you probably already stated .. but do you currently work in Thailand or have assessable Thai income over the RD tax filing threshold in 2023 and 2024?

 

For the year 2024 tax filing, do you receive year 2024 foreign pension income or other year 2024 foreign income from abroad that you remitted to Thailand? 

 

...  and what does the DTA with Thailand say in regards to Thailand being able to tax that foreign remitted income?  

 

Did you bring any pre-1-Jan-2024 foreign savings into Thailand during 2024? 

 

And if you did remit foreign income into Thailand in 2024 did you assess it as assessable and still manage to find a field on the tax form to deduct it ? (as there is no place to exempt on a tax form that I could find). Or simply legally (IMHO) assess it as non-assessable and hence in such a case the remitted income should not be included in tax calculation (IMHO)?

 

If too private ... no need to answer.  I appreciate that talking about finances can be a sensitive manner.  I am just trying to understand better your tax situation (with both tax filing and tax refunds in some cases).

[NoDisplayName]

2 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

 

Apologies - I can't recall and you probably already stated .. but do you currently work in Thailand or have assessable Thai income over the RD tax filing threshold in 2023 and 2024?

 

For the year 2024 tax filing, do you receive year 2024 foreign pension income or other year 2024 foreign income from abroad that you remitted to Thailand? 

 

...  and what does the DTA with Thailand say in regards to Thailand being able to tax that foreign remitted income?  

 

Did you bring any pre-1-Jan-2024 foreign savings into Thailand during 2024? 

 

And did if you did remit foreign income into Thailand in 2024 did you assess it as assessable and still manage to find a filed on the tax form to deduct it ? (as there is no place to exempt on a tax form that I could find). Or simply legally (IMHO) assess it as non-assessable?

 

If too private ... no need to answer.  I appreciate that talking about finances can be a sensitive manner.  I am just trying to understand better your tax situation 9with refunds in some cases).

 

"Ask me the five.....no, three!....questions, bridgekeeper.  I am not afraid!"

 

Non-O (retirement) extension.  No Thai-source income other than bank interest and dividends, total under 20K.  Filing joint, wife has no income.

 

Not receiving a pension.  All remittances are pre-2024 savings.  Total slightly above my TEDA for assessable remittances, but irrelevant as I self-determine all remittances to be non-assessable.

 

I printed off a list of Wise transfers when I went to my local office.  TRD lady asked salary or pension?  I said prior savings.  She accepted that and said no need to file unless claiming refund of withholding.

[anchadian]

5 hours ago, billd766 said:

Another poster who fails to read and comprehend.

 

I did NOT obtain a TIN, so please explain how you come to believe that I will be on the TRD radar.

I stated, IF you obtained a TIN.

[The Cyclist]

7 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

From 28:00-30:30 they confirmed that if your remittances are not assessable, you don't need a TIN and you don't need to file.

 

Cash in bank or existing savings.

 

7 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

At 31:30 they tell us that pensions are assessable if not excluded. 

 

Not it doesn't, It says Pensions are potentially taxable, depending on how much you bring. This is 1 of the occasions that I said that exempt income was given a stiff ignoring. It does not address Government Pension, US SS or any others that people are claiming are exempt and therefore not assessable.

 

7 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

So this confirms TRD is only interested in assessable income, no need to declare all remittances to include non-assessable income.

 

Try again, after reading @Guavaman excellent summary on the previous page

 

Quote

In summary, "non-assessable" is not a concept that appears within the context of the Thai Tax Code; "exempt for the purpose of income tax calculation" is the concept applied in the RD context.

 

Any reasonable person would read that as all income is assessable, However some incomes are exempt / excluded from the actual tax calculation.

 

For the majority of the posters on this thread, that would be all the sources of income ( Government Pensions, US SS, etc ) that are only taxable in the home Country

 

Other incomes outside of the above, would be subject to a Tax Credit arrangement to ensure that double Taxation did not occur.

[Badrabbit]

7 hours ago, Jim Blue said:

Cyclist what is the 7,000 baht fee for exactly ?

Strange question, they get the TIN for you.

[Briggsy]

11 hours ago, ronnie50 said:

True of getting off topic. Anyway, the UK revenue site is clear. If you don't live in UK, have absolutely no assets there (OK maybe just a bank which is fine) you are NON-RESIDENT for tax purposes. There are some other things - your State Pension willl be taxed at  source (25%?)  but that's it. Others may know more..

Non-residence for tax purposes in the UK is determined by the statutory residence tests.

https://assets.kpmg.com/content/dam/kpmg/pdf/2016/01/statutory-residence-test-flowchart.pdf

Non-residents are taxed on UK income even though they are non-resident.

State pension is never taxed at source but is taxable income. (Any tax due is generally collected by adjustment of the tax code of other income, e.g. company pension)

 

I hope this clarifies your understanding.

[Briggsy]

7 hours ago, Wyabcp said:

Would it be better to have a self assessment ? so that you can prove what tax is already paid in UK ?

Interesting question.

 

If you want to, anybody can register for self-assessment in the UK and fill in a tax return. (Take care to do it right!) In all likelihood, HMRC will de-register for the following year if there is no point.

 

Proof of tax paid is shown on P60's for employment and pensions, official DWP letters for state pension and interest certificates for bank or building society interest. In fact, all sources of income have to provide proof of tax deducted. (There are other sources of income I have not mentioned here.)

 

I see your point by putting it on a tax return, it would be 'all in one place'. This is called an SA302 (tax calculation) in the UK. Even if you don't fill in a tax return, you can print off a similar document from the Government Gateway.

 

My advice is not to fill in an unrequired UK tax return but wait and see what supporting information the Thai Revenue Department require.

[Yumthai]

8 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

I printed off a list of Wise transfers when I went to my local office.  TRD lady asked salary or pension?  I said prior savings.  She accepted that and said no need to file unless claiming refund of withholding.

So basically just tell TRD your remittances are exempted and bingo no tax to pay. No supporting docs asked, no further question.

I wonder why people worry.

[JimGant]

5 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

12 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

So this confirms TRD is only interested in assessable income, no need to declare all remittances to include non-assessable income.

 

Try again, after reading @Guavaman excellent summary on the previous page

 

Quote

In summary, "non-assessable" is not a concept that appears within the context of the Thai Tax Code; "exempt for the purpose of income tax calculation" is the concept applied in the RD context.

NDN, let me help you out in language the Cyclist can understand:

 

So, this confirms TRD is only interested in income that is NOT exempt for the purpose of income tax calculation, thus no need to declare all remittances to include income exempt for the purpose of income tax calculation.

 

Duh.

[JimGant]

10 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

I printed off a list of Wise transfers when I went to my local office.  TRD lady asked salary or pension?  I said prior savings.  She accepted that and said no need to file unless claiming refund of withholding.

I'm curious. Why ask the TRD clerk anything? Can't you just hand in your paper tax return without any discussion? Which begs the question -- if I ever have to file, can I just mail in the paper tax return?

[The Cyclist]

1 minute ago, JimGant said:

NDN, let me help you out in language the Cyclist can understand:

 

So, this confirms TRD is only interested in income that is NOT exempt for the purpose of income tax calculation, thus no need to declare all remittances to include income exempt for the purpose of income tax calculation.

 

Duh.

 

Really ?

 

What does this say, taken from the post by @Guavaman on the previous page

 

Quote

In summary, "non-assessable" is not a concept that appears within the context of the Thai Tax Code; "exempt for the purpose of income tax calculation" is the concept applied in the RD context.

 

Try getting your head around that concept.

 

Non - Assessable is not a concept within the Thai Tax Code.

 

Exempt, for the purpose of tax calculation is a concept within the Thai Tax Code.

 

Likewise, so is the concept of Tax credits.

 

So take your ' Duh ' and poke it.

[JimGant]

50 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

Non - Assessable is not a concept within the Thai Tax Code.

 

Exempt, for the purpose of tax calculation is a concept within the Thai Tax Code.

But the terms can be used interchangeably. How many time have you fallen off your tricycle?

[The Cyclist]

Just now, JimGant said:

But the terms can be used interchangeably. How many time have you fallen off your tricycle?

 

Is that the best you can muster ? Weak, feeble and embarrassing.

[sabaijai]

On 1/16/2025 at 2:31 PM, Briggsy said:

This thread is primarily aimed at those not working in Thailand, chiefly retired and now worrying about their foreign income being taxed.

 

When I was on a work permit, there was no need to file a tax return. However the employer may have had to show tax receipts. That was all done by the employer. But I definitely did not file a tax return and my WP and extension was renewed every year without fail. This must be a new thing that you are referring to.

 It's not a new requirement. If you look through the extension of stay application forms it's explicitly mentioned. I renew my stay permit and work permit each year for the last 15 years at One Stop in Chamchuri Square. Some years, officers there ask for my current Thai tax receipt/clearance, and some years they don't. I always bring one in case. 

[Kenneth White]

On 1/16/2025 at 9:31 AM, PomPolo said:

Yeah TBH I am just messing with you I'm gonna see how it all pans out before I make any leaving or country hopping plans, but certainly not submitting any tax returns on my savings and money I have earnt elsewhere and already paid tax on in a different country.  Not even gonna give them my own countries TIN as none of their business.
If we did start paying tax I very much doubt that will give us any more rights i.e. healthcare, property ownership, residency, visa imp[rovements or treated any differently to we are now.

To add to my previous point if I spent half a year out of Thailand the bar and massage GDP would go down 50% they would be begging me to come back hahaha

I agree, Card. It is none of their business. I spend a lot of money here on groceries, fuel, Global House, the farmers' shop, etc.

[NoDisplayName]

2 hours ago, JimGant said:

I'm curious. Why ask the TRD clerk anything? Can't you just hand in your paper tax return without any discussion? Which begs the question -- if I ever have to file, can I just mail in the paper tax return?

 

Why ask?  I was already there in the office to get access to the online filing system.  (TIN canceled, pinkie activated).  Change in rule interpretation had recently gone into effect.  Seemed like a good time to ask whether I would be affected in any way.

 

I was in the office, my wife translator was with me, I had the undivided attention of the office manager, and I was planning to file three late online tax returns.

 

The big chief in a small pond confirmed the only change was that only assessable (that word appears in the tax instructions) remittances need be declared, only assessable remittances enter into the PIT calculations, and that if the total of my assessable remittances fall below the 120K (filing joint) threshhold, I am not required to file a tax return.

 

I could not submit the 2023 return then, as I had not yet obtained a bank withholding statement.  I was surprised when I was able to file three late returns without providing the bank statements, and that they were approved, and that I received the 2023 refund immediately.  A month later, I was notified that 2021 and 2022 bank statements were needed. 

 

And really, the point of the exercise was to get set up on the online system, and to get a 3-year history of completed and approved tax returns if sometime in the future the TRD folks called to request an interview. 

 

Now I know how to file Thai language forms.  I know which remittances are assessable.  I know that if remittances are not assessable, they are invisible to the Thai tax system.  I know what documentation I need to file onlline.  I know how to submit requested documentation online when requested.

 

I learned that a late filing fee of 200 baht is required (apparently) only once per year, required for the 2023 return, but not the other two.  I learned how to use the Thai system to access my Bangkok Bank account and transfer the fee online during the return filing process.  I learned how to download approved tax returns digitally stamped by the TRD, as well as TRD receipts showing no tax due.

 

I logged into the system on the 4th and in about 20 minutes filed my 2024 return with no documentation.  I erroneously thought the online system had access to current year withholding.  It is possible that it does, but was too early in the tax season.  My filing was accepted, and a request was made for the bank statement and marriage certificate. 

 

I'm all set up and have no concerns unless global taxation goes into effect.  But for that, I have a cunning plan!

[NoDisplayName]

2 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

Non - Assessable is not a concept within the Thai Tax Code.

 

Assessable is a concept within the Thai tax code.

 

I know we're in Thailand, but do try out the laws of logic.   Good things will, shirley, come your way.

 

The law of identity:    assessable is assessable.
The law of non-contradiction:   assessable is not non-assessable.
The law of excluded middle:   Either assessable or non-assessable.

 

Try getting your head around that concept.

[oldcpu]

11 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

Why ask?  I was already there in the office to get access to the online filing system.  (TIN canceled, pinkie activated).  Change in rule interpretation had recently gone into effect.  Seemed like a good time to ask whether I would be affected in any way.

 

I was in the office, my wife translator was with me, I had the undivided attention of the office manager, and I was planning to file three late online tax returns.

 

The big chief in a small pond confirmed the only change was that only assessable (that word appears in the tax instructions) remittances need be declared, only assessable remittances enter into the PIT calculations, and that if the total of my assessable remittances fall below the 120K (filing joint) threshhold, I am not required to file a tax return.

 

I could not submit the 2023 return then, as I had not yet obtained a bank withholding statement.  I was surprised when I was able to file three late returns without providing the bank statements, and that they were approved, and that I received the 2023 refund immediately.  A month later, I was notified that 2021 and 2022 bank statements were needed. 

 

And really, the point of the exercise was to get set up on the online system, and to get a 3-year history of completed and approved tax returns if sometime in the future the TRD folks called to request an interview. 

 

Now I know how to file Thai language forms.  I know which remittances are assessable.  I know that if remittances are not assessable, they are invisible to the Thai tax system.  I know what documentation I need to file onlline.  I know how to submit requested documentation online when requested.

 

I learned that a late filing fee of 200 baht is required (apparently) only once per year, required for the 2023 return, but not the other two.  I learned how to use the Thai system to access my Bangkok Bank account and transfer the fee online during the return filing process.  I learned how to download approved tax returns digitally stamped by the TRD, as well as TRD receipts showing no tax due.

 

I logged into the system on the 4th and in about 20 minutes filed my 2024 return with no documentation.  I erroneously thought the online system had access to current year withholding.  It is possible that it does, but was too early in the tax season.  My filing was accepted, and a request was made for the bank statement and marriage certificate. 

 

I'm all set up and have no concerns unless global taxation goes into effect.  But for that, I have a cunning plan!

 

Thanks. One takeaway I have from the above is you also have a small amount of assessable local Thai income ( interest) which factors into the tax return filing consideration. 

[oldcpu]

We now have examples that savings from before 1-Jan-2024 ( as covered by por-161/162) which are noted as exempt tax, need not be included in one's Thai tax return and if these are the only income then no tax return is required. These incomes don't fall under the assessable income category due to their exemptions.

So they are not to be included in the tax calculation. With this in mind, note, there was nothing in the Thai language 2024 Thai tax return form to list such por-161/162 remitted money as an exemption.

I have come around to the view that the same treatment is likely true for selected DTA exempt remitted income where in some cases the DTA notes only the foreign source country has taxation rights ( as there is no place in any tax form going back many years ( since the issue of  Royal Decree 18) to today) to list such as an exemption in the Thai tax return form.  i.e. such exempt remitted income is likely not supposed to be included in a Thai tax return.

Further I note there is no place in the English language 2023 Thai tax forms for exemptions per the Royal Decree (for selected LTR visa holders). Again, I speculate such tax exempt remitted income is likely not supposed to be included in a Thai tax return.

Which also implies if these remitted incomes are the only income then no Thai tax return is required.

This still probably needs watching but I believe we are seeing a trend here supporting the non-assessable income viewpoint ( ie income exempt from including in a tax calculation) need not be included in a Thai income tax return,  and if such is the only income then no Thai tax return is required.

[NoDisplayName]

Just now, oldcpu said:

 

Thanks. One takeaway I have from the above is you also have a small amount of assessable local Thai income ( interest) which factors into the tax return filing consideration. 

 

That is correct.  Total of bank interest and dividends is just under 20K.  Tax is withheld at the source, 15% interest and 10% dividends.

 

Filing for a refund is optional.  Entering interest/dividend information on the return is optional.  It does not need to be reported.  Failure to do so simply means I forfeit my right to request a refund.

 

I have more Thai income from capital gains via stock and mutual fund sales, but those are, how you  say.....non-assessable....for the PIT calculations. 

 

All these forms of Thai income are taxable by the US.  I faithfully report this income to Uncle Scam on my 1040 every year.  If I paid tax in the US, I could claim a tax credit.

 

But I do not pay tax in the US.  I structure my finances to use the standard deduction and 0% capital gains brackets to earn about $60K in dividends and capital gains with zero tax due. This will change when social security is included in the mix, unless Trump follows through with his campaign promise to end tax on sociable security.

 

And there's the potential problem.  If Thailand moves to global taxation, that US income, although not remitted, will be considered...........assessable.....in Thailand.  That will result in $10,000 tax due in Thailand each and every year, with no way to take a tax credit against zero tax paid.  And it gets worse.  The IRS allows capital losses to offset capital gains.  Thailand, which does not tax Thai stock/fund capital gains, does NOT allow for this offset, meaning only gains would be reported, so the tax bill could be bigly higher!

 

This will not do.

[NoDisplayName]

3 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

So take your ' Duh ' and poke it.

 

You have not filed a tax return.

 

Your claims are backed not by the tax code or real-life experience, but by misinformation and cherry-picked infotainment and quote mining.

 

Duh, indeed.