Thai tax tangle: Expats warned of new rules on overseas income

[Lorry]

10 hours ago, Guavaman said:

While all reports indicate a very user-friendly attitude of TRD assessment officers, a walk-in interview-based filing process with inspection of supporting documentation amounts to a pre-filing audit by someone who may or may not fully comprehend the implications of foreign-sourced income, P. 161/162, Royal Decrees, DTAs, etc.  

 

Sounds like a high-risk situation, depending upon your luck of the draw in which local tax officer "helps" you file, inspects your documents, applies their Thai taxpayer oriented guidelines, interprets DTAs, etc.  An unsafe Thai tax zipline bungee jump!

 

So e-filing is the way to do it?

[DrPhibes]

14 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Every foreign account in Thailand is subject to CRS reporting.

 

It is the account, in a CRS Country that matters, not the Nationality of the account holder.

 

Some of you Americans are nowhere near as speshul as you seem to think you are.

But since the US does not participate in CRS, the Thai government is not receiving any info of my accounts in the US.  Just reports my single Thai account to the US under FATCA rules.  That account is now receiving only US social security money since the 1st of this year from my wife, underage child, and I.  Way more than enough for our Thai needs and wants.  Not special, just different.

[Presnock]

14 hours ago, Wyabcp said:

The fact that there is a DTA with UK, does this mean any income I'm taxed on in the UK, eg. Pension, Rent, interest , dividends etc, is exempt from taxation in Thailand ? I understand that the tax free UK personal allowance is taxable in Thailand and 25% pension lump sum is also taxable. I also know tax credits can also be used.

 

I'm in UK now going through redundancy, and the plan was to move over in the next couple of months. I have no problem in getting a tax ID, however, if Thailand tax's me on income I've already been taxed on, I'm seriously reconsidering my move...

 

 

Thailand should give you tax credits in my opinion but you would need to check with the TRD reps to see what or how much in the different taxes and if credits are available here.

[Presnock]

10 hours ago, oldcpu said:

 

Have you checked the DTA wording? 

 

The Canadian-Thai DTA, when talking about pensions, says "pensions and other similar remunerations".  Those words "other similar remunerations" is a pretty big encompassing category.  Does the USA-Thai  have that sort of wording as a big net for catching various pension type incomes?

seems to me that the US DTA is very specific on wording of different pensions, stating like SS, US govt CIVIL SERVICE pension is only taxable by the US.  State and private pensions are not protected like this and can be taxed by Thailand. or where one is a tax resident.

[Wullie Mercer]

All confusion, one of the ways of getting a year visa for retirement is to show you have brought a minimum 65,000 baht in each month. This then must be the threshold before tax. They cannot insist you bring in money so that they can collect tax,  when they say this is a rule for you stay!!!

 

 

[Surasak]

On 1/15/2025 at 7:46 PM, BritManToo said:

Do either of these guys work for the Thai tax authorities?

If not, their advice is not relevant IMHO.

They need to pick a pocket or two, as their funds are getting low!

[The Cyclist]

16 hours ago, anchadian said:

 

 

I am open to be corrected, but isn't the Revenue Code Thai Tax Law ?
 

Within which, all the questions that Ben asks are answered.

[Misty]

4 hours ago, DrPhibes said:

But since the US does not participate in CRS, the Thai government is not receiving any info of my accounts in the US.  Just reports my single Thai account to the US under FATCA rules.  That account is now receiving only US social security money since the 1st of this year from my wife, underage child, and I.  Way more than enough for our Thai needs and wants.  Not special, just different.

 

The Thai government should now be receiving information on accounts in the US.

 

Although the Thai-US FATCA IGA was signed in 2016, it only came into force last year.  The IGA includes reporting obligations that go both ways (Thailand to US, and US to Thailand).    Specifically Article 2 of the IGA, item 2b explains about what US financial institutions need to report to Thailand.  https://www.mof.go.th/th/view/attachment/file/3134303034/FATCA_IGA_Us.pdf

 

 

[The Cyclist]

5 hours ago, DrPhibes said:

But since the US does not participate in CRS, the Thai government is not receiving any info of my accounts in the US.  Just reports my single Thai account to the US under FATCA rules.  That account is now receiving only US social security money since the 1st of this year from my wife, underage child, and I.  Way more than enough for our Thai needs and wants.  Not special, just different.

 

I take it that information in the post above,  given by, I assume, a fellow American, is sufficient.

 

In addition, under CRS, your Thai Bank will report information on that account to the Thai RD.

 

Low value accounts becoming reportable as of the 01 Jan 2024.

[NoDisplayName]

3 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

 

I am open to be corrected, but isn't the Revenue Code Thai Tax Law ?
 

Within which, all the questions that Ben asks are answered.

 

Why don't you send him an email and tell him he's worng?

[oldcpu]

On 1/28/2025 at 4:07 PM, oldcpu said:

As for my incomes ... my large combined Canadian pension incomes can only be taxed in Canada.

 

....

That just leaves a small German pension (which IS assessable and hence taxable in Thailand) that falls under the submission threshold of money needed to file a Thai tax return. ie its too small.

 

 

I am puzzling over the German-Thai DTA in regards to pensions. 

 

I have assumed my small German pension is nominally assessable income, based on an official letter from the German Tax office.  After looking at the German-Thai DTA, I am wondering, was i wrong in my assumption?

 

Details:

 

Over 4 years ago, I received a letter from the German Tax Office, that as a resident of Thailand, the DTA between Thailand and Germany applies, and that the right to tax my German pension (which is a state pension (ie not a civil-service nor a military) is assigned exclusively to the United Kingdom of Thailand. That was 100% clear.

 

From that I assumed (where assuming can be 'dangerous') that the German pension was assessable income for Thailand and taxable.  (I note at present my German pension is too small to meet the Thai taxation threshold, but that is not the point of this post).

 

So out of curiousity as to how the German Tax Office concluded (what they advised me in that letter), I decided to dig through the Germany-Thailand DTA to find that reference. 

 

Upon re-reading the German-Thai DTA I note:

Quote

Article-17:  Remuneration paid by, or out of funds created by a Contracting state (Germany) ... to any individual in respect of employment, shall be exempt from tax in the other Contracting State (Thailand) ....

If those remunerations are pensions, then that does not seem consistent with the German Tax Office letter. But maybe the remunerations are not pensions in that article.

 

So I then went on to read article-18:

Quote

Article-18 (1) Pensions and other payments for past employment as well as annuities derived by a resident of a Contracting State (Thailand) may be taxed in the other contracting State (Germany) only if such payments are deducted as expenses .....

That 18(1) does appear consistent with the German Tax office letter. ie Pensions may (only) be taxable in Germany in circumstances that don't affect me.

 

I then continued reading article-18 and read:
 

Quote

Article-18 (2) ... pensions and other payments for past employment as well as annuities paid out of funds created by a Contracting State (Germany) ... shall be exempt from Tax in the other Contracting State (Thailand).

Again - the DTA states not taxable in Thailand. That does not appear consistent with the German taxation office letter.  What am I reading wrong here?

 

Can it be such pensions are not taxable in either country?  That would be (an almost unbelievable) first. Typically at least one country does the taxation.  Escaping the taxman is not supposed to happen.  Is it?

 

Ok - Yes, a present time, for me its a bit of a mute point, as I am on an LTR -WP visa and my German pension is very small, but in 8 more years my LTR visa expires, ... I may have more assessable income then, and if financial restructuring by me is potentially desireable to reduce my tax exposure, I like to plan ahead.

 

Am I misreading this Thai-German DTA?

 

if I made a mistake, if any are familiar with the Thai-German DTA, please point out my mistake?

 

Note - this is far too small (and too mute an observation at this time) to bother contacting any tax advisors.

[Neeranam]

3 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

In addition, under CRS, your Thai Bank will report information on that account to the Thai RD.

I believe you would need a TIN for the bank to do this. 

[TheAppletons]

50 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

Am I misreading this Thai-German DTA?

 

if I made a mistake, if any are familiar with the Thai-German DTA, please point out my mistake?

 

Note - this is far too small (and too mute an observation at this time) to bother contacting any tax advisors.

 

  I will preface this by saying I know zip, zilch, nada about German pensions and DTAs.

 

  That said, the major disconnect (based solely upon what's written in your post) appears to be article 18-2, where it states "... pensions and other payments for past employment as well as annuities paid out of funds created by a Contracting State (Germany) ... shall be exempt from Tax in the other Contracting State (Thailand)."

 

  Earlier in the post you mentioned you have a small German "state pension"....is that an old age pension that is available to everyone, by chance?  If so, perhaps article 18-2 is to be taken literally in that pensions and other payments for past employment is germane.  In other words, if your state pension isn't directly connected to employment then article 18-2 doesn't apply.

 

  If that's the case, then it appears the DTA and the letter you received would be in agreement.  If not, then pursue another avenue, I suppose.  Good luck.

[oldcpu]

18 minutes ago, TheAppletons said:

 

  That said, the major disconnect (based solely upon what's written in your post) appears to be article 18-2, where it states "... pensions and other payments for past employment as well as annuities paid out of funds created by a Contracting State (Germany) ... shall be exempt from Tax in the other Contracting State (Thailand)."

 

  Earlier in the post you mentioned you have a small German "state pension"....is that an old age pension that is available to everyone, by chance?  If so, perhaps article 18-2 is to be taken literally in that pensions and other payments for past employment is germane.  In other words, if your state pension isn't directly connected to employment then article 18-2 doesn't apply.

 

My state pension is for working in Germany (as an employee of a company supporting a European intra-government organization (not German but European) ...  and yes, that pension is available to everyone IF they work and they (and their employer) contribute to the German pension system while working. 

 

A mute point:  In fact, i did not have enough time working for the company in Germany (as later I became a civil servant of the European intra-government organization and hence no longer in the German system - even thou living in Germany) ... however my previous time working in Canada and my time working for that European intra-government organization in Germany qualified me for a German pension, IF (and only if) I paid the German pension system a lump sum of money (in essence pay them a few months of pension contributions to bring me up to the qualification point for the German pension).  So I immediately did that, and immediately then started receiving a German pension. The pension is small, as it was/is calculated on my only contributing financially to the German pension system for 5-years.

 

 

18 minutes ago, TheAppletons said:

 

  If that's the case, then it appears the DTA and the letter you received would be in agreement.  If not, then pursue another avenue, I suppose.  Good luck.

 

The DTA stuff is interesting ... but the (legal) language it is written in can be confusing.

 

[oldcpu]

Deleted.. duplicate 

[jwest10]

On 1/29/2025 at 2:29 PM, The Cyclist said:

 

I have no intention of selling my UK house. I might need it if Thailand does make a move towards global taxation.

 

The house in Thailand will become a 5 month holiday home.

Many have not got that luxury.

 

[potless]

I just read an article on the Phuketnews.com website dated Sunday 26th January 2025. Named "Thailands Tax Changes: Clarity from the Revenue Department". At the very bottom of the page, there is a message that says "The Revenue Department will join a live Q&A webinar on ZOOM starting at 4pm on Wednesday ( Jan 29th)". ( This should not be confused with the link further up the article that connects to the old video that was posted a few days back and was recorded last year.) So did anyone see this webinar and was there anything new in it?

[anchadian]

29 minutes ago, potless said:

I just read an article on the Phuketnews.com website dated Sunday 26th January 2025. Named "Thailands Tax Changes: Clarity from the Revenue Department". At the very bottom of the page, there is a message that says "The Revenue Department will join a live Q&A webinar on ZOOM starting at 4pm on Wednesday ( Jan 29th)". ( This should not be confused with the link further up the article that connects to the old video that was posted a few days back and was recorded last year.) So did anyone see this webinar and was there anything new in it?

Actually started at 1700 hours this evening.

You can send a question live to:

https://www.expattaxthailand.com/ask-a-question/

[oldcpu]

2 hours ago, anchadian said:

https://www.expattaxthailand.com/ask-a-question/

 

That's an interesting link, as Expat Tax Thailand has a FAQ page with answers to some of the questions asked on AseanNow.  I found it informative - and kudos to Expat Tax for their efforts.

 

However there are a small number of mistakes in the answers in their FAQ before that 'ask-a-question' ..   (in regards to details of LTR visas and taxation) that I have believe are wrong (likely because new clarifications have been determined).

 

Here are some questions/answers taken from the Expat Tax page:

 

Example-1:  
Q: Are LTR visas exempt by Royal decree?

 

Expat Tax:  There are two types of LTR visas which are exempt from foreign-sourced income with a Royal Decree:  Wealthy Global Citizen and Wealthy Pensioner

 

My observation: Actually there are three types and not just two types.  Expat Tax forgot to mention "Work from Thailand Professional" is also exempt tax from foreign sourced income remitted to Thailand.

 

- - -

Example-2:

Q: If I convert my current retirement visa to  an LTR visa, do I still need to make a tax return?

 

Expat Tax: Yes you do, it is a different form and depending on the Visa you may have no tax liability.

 

My observation: This is correct but it is misleading.   It would have been better to note in the Expat Tax answer applies to the year of the visa conversion.   In subsequent years, if on an LTR-WP, LTR-WGC, or LTR-WFTP there is no tax on income remitted to Thailand and further if that the only income there is no need to file a Thai tax return.    The no need to file a Thai tax return was recently confirmed by an AseanNow user when calling the Thai tax help line phone number. This becomes important as well in a further misleading Expat Tax answer.

 

And in regards to the different form, its only for LTR-HSKP

 

- - -

Example-3 :

Q: Can you please confirm that Wealthy Pensioner LTR Visa holders are exempt from tax on foreign source income remitted to Thailand

 

Expat Tax:  Yes, the Wealthy Pensioner LTR is exempt from foreign sourced income if remitted the following tax year.

 

My observation:   This is correct but it is misleading.  It would have been better to note the Expat Tax answer applies to the year of the visa application.  Once one has had the LTR visa for more than one year, the 'following tax year' observation becomes a mute point, as tax returns are always submitted for tax on the previous year.  Interpreting the Royal Decree 743 to state foreign income remitted in the year of earning being taxable is incorrect.

 

- - - - -

Example-4 :

 

Q: Is retirement pension considered income? Does having a 10-year LTR (Long Term Resident) Wealthy Pensioner waive the tax requirement?  I receive US military retirement ( ~$4000), VA Disablity (~$4,000), and US Social Security Disablity (~$2,000) monthly.

 

Expat Tax:  The Wealthy pensioner VISA has a Royal Decree exemption from foreign sourced income. You still have to file by its a different form you have to complete, which has just been added to the revenue's website. The good news is that US government pensions and social security are not taxable in Thailand.

 

My observation:  This is only partly correct. LTR_WP do not have to file a Thai tax return if foreign source remitted income is their only source of income in Thailand.  A phone call by an AseanNow user to the Thai tax help line confirmed that LTR  Wealth Pensioners do not have to file a Thai tax return for foreign remitted income.

 

Further the only Thai tax form that has a field for LTR visa holders is for only the LTR High Skilled Professional visa holders. The only Thai tax form is for LTR-HSKP is here in Thai language: https://www.rd.go.th/65971.html (year 2024 tax forms - Form Por.Ngor.Dor.95).

Further thoughts:

 

In light of relatively recent clarifications, I believe that Expat Tax Thailand should update their FAQ question and answer section based on such more recent clarifications.

 

I am not a tax advisor nor a tax expert.  Please confirm such tax information one's self.  But I am pretty certain any who take the time to check with the Thailand Revenue Department Help Line will confirm what I noted in regards to LTR visa.

[mania]

The best video on this whole subject yet!

 

 

[KhunLA]

2 hours ago, mania said:

The best video on this whole subject yet!

 

Using Trump as click bait for Thai taxing  / TRD, is about the silliest way to get anyone to watch, except Trump haters.  Who probably wouldn't have the intelligence to understand any of the content, if any of it was relevant to TRD.

[Badrabbit]

Is this all now law or is all this just scaremongering?

[oldcpu]

21 hours ago, oldcpu said:

 

I am puzzling over the German-Thai DTA in regards to pensions. 

 

I have assumed my small German pension is nominally assessable income, based on an official letter from the German Tax office.  After looking at the German-Thai DTA, I am wondering, was i wrong in my assumption?

 

.....

 

if I made a mistake, if any are familiar with the Thai-German DTA, please point out my mistake?

 

Note - this is far too small (and too mute an observation at this time) to bother contacting any tax advisors.

 

I stumbled across a Youtube video (in German language) here.  Now this is an English language forum ... and also my German language skills are not adequate to understand the spoken German (I used subtitles and Google translate to observe the video):'

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3B0sZ4xq8UA

 

However according to that video (best i can understand), German pensions are taxed in Thailand (in general) for residents of Thailand in receipt of such Germany sourced pensions.

 

It is mostly a mute point for me (as my German pension amount is below the Thai taxation threshold), and i don't remit that pension to Thailand , and I have an LTR visa.  But it will dictate my financial planning for the future, in case in year 2033 (if i am still alive) I decide not to stay with an LTR visa.

 

[DrPhibes]

On 1/29/2025 at 6:26 PM, Misty said:

 

The Thai government should now be receiving information on accounts in the US.

 

Although the Thai-US FATCA IGA was signed in 2016, it only came into force last year.  The IGA includes reporting obligations that go both ways (Thailand to US, and US to Thailand).    Specifically Article 2 of the IGA, item 2b explains about what US financial institutions need to report to Thailand.  https://www.mof.go.th/th/view/attachment/file/3134303034/FATCA_IGA_Us.pdf

 

 

Yes, there is a 2 way exchange of information.  For the US, they report the information of Thai residents that hold US accounts to the Thai gov.  For the Thai side, they report the account information for US residents to the US gov.  The US does not report information of accounts held in the US by US citizens to the Thai authorities.  That is tier 1 FATCA reporting.

[oldcpu]

4 hours ago, Badrabbit said:

Is this all now law or is all this just scaremongering?

 

Is what law?

 

As of Thailand RD Ministerial instructions Por.161/162, any assessable income earned from 1-January-2024 and then remitted to Thailand from 1-Jan-2024 onward in time is subject to possible Thai taxation and if the remitted assessable income is over a certain monetary threshold, a Thai Tax return is required.  Por.161/162 is not Thai law, but one would need to take the Thai RD to court if one wanted to openly challenge it.

 

Most of the debate on this forum, has been what defines the words "assessable" given not only the Thai tax code is relevant, but also the noted Thai RD Ministerial instructions Por.161/162 are relevant, and also Royal Decrees are relevant (such as RD-18 (which references DTA exempt income) and RD-743 (LTR visa)).

 

I think there is no disagreement, that if one's only income is remitted foreign income/savings from before 1-Jan-2024, then such is not treated as assessable income, and there is no need to have a Thai TIN, and no need to file a Thai tax return.

 

However if one is remitting income earned from 1-Jan-2024 and onward in time , into Thailand, then one need to check the Thai tax code (which defines assessable income) and also check with further amplifying/clarifying documents, such as Royal Decrees and Ministerial instructions to more precisely define assessable income.  More precisely only should check the DTA of one's income source (re: RD-18) and also check with any other DTA's (such as RD-743) to assess if that remitted foreign earned income after 31-Dec-2023 is assessable income,  in addition to considering any Thai derived income.

 

Also other aspects (in regards to Thai derived income) is in regards to interest from Thai banks/bonds, where IF a 15% withholding tax has already been applied, as by having the withholding tax applied, its possible such interest does not factor into the assessable income assessment.  I don't know enough to be certain there, but it is a factor.

 

So in short - yes there is some scaremongering , but also yes, there is a need for some (but not all) to file income tax returns who were not required in the past to file.

[Badrabbit]

9 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

 

Is what law?

 

As of Thailand RD Ministerial instructions Por.161/162, any assessable income earned from 1-January-2024 and then remitted to Thailand from 1-Jan-2024 onward in time is subject to possible Thai taxation and if the remitted assessable income is over a certain monetary threshold, a Thai Tax return is required.  Por.161/162 is not Thai law, but one would need to take the Thai RD to court if one wanted to openly challenge it.

 

Most of the debate on this forum, has been what defines the words "assessable" given not only the Thai tax code is relevant, but also the noted Thai RD Ministerial instructions Por.161/162 are relevant, and also Royal Decrees are relevant (such as RD-18 (which references DTA exempt income) and RD-743 (LTR visa)).

 

I think there is no disagreement, that if one's only income is remitted foreign income/savings from before 1-Jan-2024, then such is not treated as assessable income, and there is no need to have a Thai TIN, and no need to file a Thai tax return.

 

However if one is remitting income earned from 1-Jan-2024 and onward in time , into Thailand, then one need to check the Thai tax code (which defines assessable income) and also check with further amplifying/clarifying documents, such as Royal Decrees and Ministerial instructions to more precisely define assessable income.  More precisely only should check the DTA of one's income source (re: RD-18) and also check with any other DTA's (such as RD-743) to assess if that remitted foreign earned income after 31-Dec-2023 is assessable income,  in addition to considering any Thai derived income.

 

Also other aspects (in regards to Thai derived income) is in regards to interest from Thai banks/bonds, where IF a 15% withholding tax has already been applied, as by having the withholding tax applied, its possible such interest does not factor into the assessable income assessment.  I don't know enough to be certain there, but it is a factor.

 

So in short - yes there is some scaremongering , but also yes, there is a need for some (but not all) to file income tax returns who were not required in the past to file.

This is my problem, I've been to the tax office 4 times each time thay have said "you don't need to pay tax" 

Told them what I bring in 2 government pensions (according to Google both can only be taxed once,London Fire Brigade, UK State pension) I pay tax on them in the UK, tax office also agreed that thay can not be taxed here, 3rd pension is from Tesco 1,800 bht per month so not enough for tax to be paid.

 

[oldcpu]

8 minutes ago, Badrabbit said:

This is my problem, I've been to the tax office 4 times each time thay have said "you don't need to pay tax" 

Told them what I bring in 2 government pensions (according to Google both can only be taxed once,London Fire Brigade, UK State pension) I pay tax on them in the UK, tax office also agreed that thay can not be taxed here, 3rd pension is from Tesco 1,800 bht per month so not enough for tax to be paid.

 

 

There are at least 61 Thailand Double Tax Agreements (DTAs) with other countries ( I read another source that stated 64 DTAs).  I doubt the RD officials at your local tax office are familiar with all of these DTAs.

 

If you wish an accurate answer, and not an off the cuff < don't bother us > answer, you will IMHO likely need to show up with a Thai language copy of the Great Britain and Northern DTA with Thailand, and highlight the relevant paragraphs associated with your pensions.

 

Else I believe there is a high probability that they could make a mistake.  I emphasize high probability that they could make a mistake.

 

Of course, just IMHO.

[KhunHeineken]

5 hours ago, Badrabbit said:

Is this all now law or is all this just scaremongering?

It's law. 

 

Some Mods, and members, initially branded discussion on compliance / collection / enforcement as scaremongering. 

 

What Thai authorities may implement in order to force foreigners to comply was not allowed to be discussed. 

 

For some strange reason, we can now discuss it. 

 

In my opinion, there was never any scaremongering, just discussion. 

 

Tax is just another bill to pay.  Simple as that. 

 

Funny how many would never dare breach an immigration law, but are not taxing this tax policy just as serious. 

[redwood1]

On 1/29/2025 at 3:18 PM, Guavaman said:

While all reports indicate a very user-friendly attitude of TRD assessment officers, a walk-in interview-based filing process with inspection of supporting documentation amounts to a pre-filing audit by someone who may or may not fully comprehend the implications of foreign-sourced income, P. 161/162, Royal Decrees, DTAs, etc.  

 

Sounds like a high-risk situation, depending upon your luck of the draw in which local tax officer "helps" you file, inspects your documents, applies their Thai taxpayer oriented guidelines, interprets DTAs, etc.  An unsafe Thai tax zipline bungee jump!

 

 

Yep......Talk about lambs waiting in line to be slaughtered, by having the tax office do your tax calculations..

 

Heck I have read these tax threads from day # 1 and there is plenty I dont fully understand about some of the more technical tax talk......And my English is 100% by the way....

 

I can just see Somchi tax man who no doubt knows less than me and knows more or less ZERO about the 61 DTAs...."HELPING"......lol .....yea right.......

 

Thats going to be some VERY expensive. "Help"....

[KhunHeineken]

7 minutes ago, redwood1 said:

I can just see Somchi tax man who no doubt knows less than me and knows more or less ZERO about the 61 DTAs...."HELPING"......lol .....yea right.......

If Somchai tells you that you do not have to file, that's it, it's official, you do not have to file.  Enjoy your retirement in Thailand, tax free, and forever.  No other checks and balances are in place.