Thai tax tangle: Expats warned of new rules on overseas income

[oldcpu]

48 minutes ago, Guavaman said:

Regarding the reference to Ministerial Regulations in the Revenue Code, there are only two that are specified in a footnote to category (17):

 

Section 42 The assessable income of the following categories shall be exempt for the purpose of income tax calculation:

(17) Income prescribed for exemption by Ministerial Regulations.¹²

¹²M.R. No. 126, No. 201 B.E. 2539

 

Ministerial Regulation No. 126, (B.E. 2509) Issued under the Revenue Code Regarding Revenue Tax Exemption

Clause 2 The following incomes shall be prescribed as incomes under (17) of Section 42 of the Revenue Code as amended by the Revenue Code Amendment Act (No. 10), B.E. 2496 :

 

95 types of exempted income are listed with descriptions; the English translation appears on the RD website here:

https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/user_upload/kormor/eng/MR_126.pdf

 

The only other Ministerial Regulation referred to in Section 42 (17) is M.R. No. 201 (B.E. 2539) covering exemption from personal income tax on compensation from transfer of ownership in real estate in the Pa Sak Basin Development Project.

 

I saw those foot notes before, but did not spend much time going through them. 

 

This time, I also asked myself, must the Ministerial Regulations be confined to those listed in a footnote? 

 

...  and I also asked,   if subsequent to Ministerial Regulation No.126 (B.E.2509) there were newer Ministerial interpretations and/or Royal Decrees, must they also be included as a consideration in Tax code section 42(17).    I speculate the answer is yes, ... but then speculation is just that ... speculation. 

 

Anyway ,those 95 !! exemptions in MR.126 was an interesting skim through, albeit  I was getting very fatigued toward the end.

 

That Ministerial Directive 126 does not state its exact date that I could decipher.  I note already some of its has been repealed by Ministerial Regulation No.307 (B.E.2558) - and that in particular was reflected in that recent unofficial translation (the link to which you posted).

 

While that specific repeal is not relevant to our discussion, it makes me wonder, if other Ministerial Regulations exist  that have repealed or added relevant sections for Ministerial Regulation No.126 , but not yet reflected in the latest MR-126 version ? And could that also be the case for recent Ministerial interpretations/instructions (such as POR-161/162) and the Royal Decree 743 (LTR).

 

Anyway, I note in the MR-126 you linked:

 

Item(36) in MR-126 regarding provident funds appear to apply to certain types of pensions.  It does not state these provident funds must only be Thailand provident funds. There other sections more specific to pensions.  But I speculate this could apply to certain pensions also flagged as tax exempt in DTAs.

 

I thus speculate with Item(36) in Ministerial Regulation No.126 (B.E.2509) as called up by Section-42(17) of the Thai tax code, one could make a legitimate argument that exempt income (such as that specified in certain DTAs) are not to be included in a Thai tax calculation.

 

Slightly off topic, in MR No.126, I noted Item(62) on condominium sales and exemptions if person is properly registered ( I suspect registered via yellow book registration) was an interesting surprise to me in regards to limited tax exemption when selling the condo (although it only goes as far as the 'appraised' value which is typically less than the sale value.

 

While scrolling through the Ministerial Regulations I also stumbled across this wording on Double Taxation Agreements (DTAs) on the Thai RD web site:  https://www.rd.go.th/english/21973.html  

 

In particular I note the words: 

Quote

 

Each DTA may prescribe different methods of elimination of double taxation of a person by the resident country:

(1)   Exemption method

The country of residence does not tax the income which according to the DTA is taxed in the source country.

(2)   Credit method

The resident country retains the right to tax the income which was already taxed in the source country. 

 

 

So clearly there are incomes from foreign countries, that are exempt Thailand taxation by the "exemption method" to avoid double taxation (and are NOT to be confused with incomes from foreign countries where double taxation is prevented by the "credit method").

 

[KhunHeineken]

On 1/18/2025 at 1:48 AM, EVENKEEL said:

Sounds like you're a tax refugee. Good luck.

I wouldn't say a tax refugee. 

 

I've paid more than my fair share of tax over my working life.  None too happy that any of it went to people who have never worked a day in their life,  but that's for a different thread.

 

By choice, I remained a tax resident of Thailand in 2024. Depending on how this unfolds,  it will determine if I decide to remain a tax resident of Thailand in 2025. 

 

Unlike others, I can easily do 6 month outside Thailand a year.  So, Vietnam may see me as a tax refugee of Thailand, along with many others.    

 

 

[KhunHeineken]

On 1/18/2025 at 1:18 AM, scottiejohn said:

More bloody scaremongering!

Give it a rest please!

"scaremongering" - what a load of BS.  It's called freedom of speech.   

 

Thailand has the death penalty for drug trafficking.  There's no death penalty for tax evasion.

 

We often discuss people caught for drug trafficking who are facing the death sentence,  but dare to discuss a fine, or a possible visa violate attached to not paying a tax liability in Thailand, and you call it "scaremongering."  Really????

 

"scaremongering" - is that the best you've got? 

[NoDisplayName]

21 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

Item(36) in MR-126 regarding provident funds appear to apply to certain types of pensions.  It does not state these provident funds must only be Thailand provident funds.

 

Unless someone successfully claims a deduction for a foreign pension as A provident fund, then assume this is only for THE provident fund, that being the legal definition of a Thai fund legally registered with the SEC.

 

The Provident Fund is a fund established for voluntary participation between companies and employees, serving as a source of funds for employees in cases such as resignation,　retirement, illness, or death. Governed by the Provident Fund Act, the Thai government　regulates the Provident Fund, ensuring the rights of employees within the fund.
(Source: Krungsri Asset)

 

The deduction or provident fund on the PN90 is for contributions TO the fund, not withdrawals FROM the fund.  Regardless, if a provident fund is a pension, that is taxable unless exempted by DTA. 

 

 

[oldcpu]

37 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

Unless someone successfully claims a deduction for a foreign pension as A provident fund, then assume this is only for THE provident fund, that being the legal definition of a Thai fund legally registered with the SEC.

 

The Provident Fund is a fund established for voluntary participation between companies and employees, serving as a source of funds for employees in cases such as resignation,　retirement, illness, or death. Governed by the Provident Fund Act, the Thai government　regulates the Provident Fund, ensuring the rights of employees within the fund.
(Source: Krungsri Asset)

 

The deduction or provident fund on the PN90 is for contributions TO the fund, not withdrawals FROM the fund.  Regardless, if a provident fund is a pension, that is taxable unless exempted by DTA. 

 

 

 

I note the word "established for voluntary participation between companies and employees, serving as a source of funds for employees in cases such as resignation,　retirement, .." ....

 

Is that not what a pension is?   Is that ONLY for Thai Provident Fund and not for a foreigners (because it has to be governed by the Thai government, while a foreign pension is not governed by the Thai government)?

 

I find this interesting.

 

MR.126(36) notes:

Quote

(36) Any money or benefit received by employees from a provident fund under the law governing provident funds as follows:
(a) any money or benefit received by an employee when he or she leaves employment due to ... or the leaving occurs after the employee is 55 years old.

 

Again, recall MR.126(36) is the footnote-12 of tax code section-42(17) which lists tax exemptions that are not  to be included in a tax calculation.

 

This brings to mind where someone(?) / more than one(?) ,...  on AsianNow went to their local RD and were told that if they were on a pension then they had no tax obligation (ie their pension income not to be included in a tax calculation).  Of course - others went to their local RD and were told their pensions were DEFINITELY taxable (which happens to be my view - if not excluded in a DTA).

 

I assume then, looking at the quote of your post, that this refers to only Thai person's pensions governed by the Thai government , and not foreigner's pensions (that are governed by the foreigner's government)?

 

That seems a bit unfair. ...  But I guess This is Thaliand.

[KhunHeineken]

1 hour ago, Nik23 said:

where do i have to sign up in order to do a Personal Income tax?  Link?

 

Why do you want to sign up? 

 

Have you not read all the posts from members that all of this will never happen? 

 

It will just all go away. 

[oldcpu]

1 hour ago, Nik23 said:

where do i have to sign up in order to do a Personal Income tax?  Link?

 

 

You need to get a tax ID number first. 

 

I suppose you could just show up at your local Revenue Department (RD) office, with all your needed paperwork , and try to file your tax return then, but i suspect you would be missing some paperwork and have to do one or more trips back home to get the paperwork.

 

You would need to bring paperwork to both (1) get a tax ID number, and (2) supporting financial info for your tax return.

[KhunHeineken]

6 hours ago, redwood1 said:

 

Sir you have gone completely MAD......

 

If you think the Indian the Chinese or the Russian expats which VASTLY VASTLY out number the farang expats will be lifting so much as a finger to slave over or fill in tax forums or dig up bank records, or burn the midnight oil trying to figure out the vastly complicated DTAs.,or  having sleepless nights over accessible and non  accessible income...

 

Nope, they are not going to do Jack.....Not now not ever...

 

Its just a small number of western farang  who seem desperate to get in the tax system....And no one else..

So, you are basing YOUR actions on what you think, but do not know for sure, Chinese, Russian, and Indian expats will, or will not do. 

 

Good Luck with that.

 

BTW, please supply a link as to what they are doing. 

[NoDisplayName]

26 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

Is that not what a pension is? 

But there is nothing there to help us.

 

Perhaps a form of pension, but that doesn't make it non-assessable.  It appears withdrawals or payments FROM the provident fund, or any provident fund, are taxable as pensions, unless covered by DTA

 

There is only a line item for deduction of contributions TO the fund, which you could only take if you were employed in Thailand.  That would not apply as any money you put into the fund in your home country, stays in your home country, and can't be remitted or claimed as a tax credit.

 

 

[Guavaman]

2 hours ago, oldcpu said:

While that specific repeal is not relevant to our discussion, it makes me wonder, if other Ministerial Regulations exist  that have repealed or added relevant sections for Ministerial Regulation No.126 , but not yet reflected in the latest MR-126 version ?

Regarding the reference to Ministerial Regulations in the Revenue Code, there are only two that are specified in a footnote to category (17) that appear in the English translation on the RD website; however, on the Thai website, the following additional Ministerial Regulations are also listed in the footnote to category (17): Google Translate

 

230 BE 2544  Give as much money as was paid for the purchase of the building. Building with land Apartments or land along with the construction of a building on the land within a period of 1 year are exempt income.

 

241 BE 2546  Concerning the exemption of revenue, add (62) of Section 2 of Ministerial Regulation No. 126 (B.E. 2509), granting income from the sale of real estate. Real estate including land and apartments are exempt income. Amendment No. 126

 

252 BE 2548  Specifies that the assessable income of those damaged by a geological disaster is income that is exempt from being included in the calculation of income tax.

 

254  BE 2548  Tax exemption Tax benefits for civil servants who left government service according to government measures in 2004 and civil servants who left government service according to government measures in 2005.

 

385 BE 2565  Issued in accordance with the Revenue Code. Exemption from income tax for community enterprises only that are general partnerships or groups of persons that are not juristic persons. Additional amendments (No. 126)

 

386 BE 2565  Issued in accordance with the Revenue Code. Regarding tax exemption Measures to shop well and have returns in 2023. (Announcement from the Director-General of the Revenue Department About income tax (No. 431) etc.)

 

387 BE 2565  Regarding tax exemption Tax measures to support the filming of foreign films in Thailand

 

388 BE 2565 Regarding tax exemption Personal income tax exemption measures for compensation support or any other benefits received from the government in tax year 2022

  

https://www.rd.go.th/6160.html

[NanLaew]

4 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Another paranoid thing to consider.

With the adoption of AI, any taxing agency, and why not the Thai one, is going to be able to do a lot more work with a lot less effort and manpower.

 

 

There's absolutely no restriction on the private citizens of the world availing themselves of the same benefits of AI to ensure they aren't encumbered or otherwise disadvantaged by any actual changes to any countries' application of tax laws and regulations.

[flexomike]

9 hours ago, Njoku said:

I brought 850k in in just one transaction last year, from my understanding if it was from savings which it was its exempt from becoming taxable, of course if they ask to see your local bank statements they will see the 850k they will expect you to be able to prove that funds did come from savings from AU, I printed out my AU bank statement for 2023 showing the funds and the withdrawal, if asked if thats enough is the 65,000$ question, knowing there affinity with paper work im pretty sure there likely to ask me to get a bank letter from my AU bank to verify or something along those lines.

io

If they audit you your going to have to be able to prove it, because at some point savings will have gone and it becomes  saved income from Jan 1 2024.

 

The TGF who is an accountant when I asked said she does not need to supply bank statements when lodging her tax return, but all her bank etc financials well most of them are linked to the revenue department which is the same back in AU (for those that thought they were living in sleep hollow even Thais own computers) she also said she can claim all the insurance policies she has, saving and medical, she will ask the revenue department when I apply for a TIN soon if I can claim the premium I payed for my hospital insurance, I will ask or she will what else is claimable in my cirumstances, I was quite surprised what miss can claim.

Has to be a Thailand Company Insurance policy to get the deduction

[EVENKEEL]

6 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

I wouldn't say a tax refugee. 

 

I've paid more than my fair share of tax over my working life.  None too happy that any of it went to people who have never worked a day in their life,  but that's for a different thread.

 

By choice, I remained a tax resident of Thailand in 2024. Depending on how this unfolds,  it will determine if I decide to remain a tax resident of Thailand in 2025. 

 

Unlike others, I can easily do 6 month outside Thailand a year.  So, Vietnam may see me as a tax refugee of Thailand, along with many others.    

 

 

There are i'm sure some Richie Rick folks staying in Thailand who maybe play tax games with home country and other locations. 

 

I won't get a TIN until I'm told by someone other than an anonymous poster or a legal service on facebook. This is all fueled by lonely retired guys with no hobbies.  

[Cuchulainn]

7 hours ago, lordgrinz said:

 

Which begs the question, is the remittance FIFO or LIFO? Meaning is the interest earned considered first, or the principal from years of savings first. 

Fifo or lifo? Is it up to the RD or the taxpayer to choose?

 

If we can choose fifo, fantastic!! No tax!

[anchadian]

4 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

There are i'm sure some Richie Rick folks staying in Thailand who maybe play tax games with home country and other locations. 

 

I won't get a TIN until I'm told by someone other than an anonymous poster or a legal service on facebook. This is all fueled by lonely retired guys with no hobbies.  

This sums it all up.

 

I could't agree more.

[scottiejohn]

7 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

dare to discuss a fine, or a possible visa violate attached to not paying a tax liability in Thailand, and you call it "scaremongering."

Yes!

[Badrabbit]

This all must be a big wind up but because I'm so worried I will again try to ask at my local tax office, last time all they said was " pay tax in your country don't pay tax here" 

This thread seems to be full of people spouting opinions, "opinions are like ar%#oles everyone has got one"

[lordgrinz]

50 minutes ago, Badrabbit said:

This all must be a big wind up but because I'm so worried I will again try to ask at my local tax office, last time all they said was " pay tax in your country don't pay tax here" 

This thread seems to be full of people spouting opinions, "opinions are like ar%#oles everyone has got one"

 

It's more like the letter of the law states something, which technically is all that matters, and as usual Thai's (in this case TRD employees) are either ignoring it, or pretending they have no idea what you're talking about. At the end of the day, you're a Farang, and they don't really care what you do, until they do care, then I'd hate to be on the receiving end of justice.

[Badrabbit]

1 minute ago, lordgrinz said:

 

It's more like the letter of the law states something, which technically is all that matters, and as usual Thai's (in this case TRD employees) are either ignoring it, or pretending they have no idea what you're talking about. At the end of the day, you're a Farang, and they don't really care what you do, until they do care, then I'd hate to be on the receiving end of justice.

Incredible Thailand, government department pretending they have no idea because we are Farangs, you obviously know this from experience.

[The Cyclist]

10 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

We all know what the TRD means by assessable income, that being subject to Thai taxation.  Income prior to Jan 2024 and certain pensions are exempt, not taxable, non-assessable, not to be declared on the tax forms.

 

Sure, Section 40 says assessable income,

 

Part ( 1 ) says Pensions

 

Subject to Thai taxation. The Revenue Code was written in Gawd knows what year, but long before 1980.

 

In the 80's along came DTA's ( International Agreements.) which detailed Pensions as

 

1. Only taxable in Source Country

 

2. Country A has primary or secondary taxation rights

 

3. Country B has primary or secondary taxation rights.

 

And if some pensions are taxable, and some pensions are not taxable, ( Due to DTA's  and not the Revenue Code ) then they would need to be declared on a tax filing to ensure that people were not lying about the source of their pension, and engaging in tax evasion.

 

It's a straightforward concept. Thailand is changing, whether we like it or not, and the good old days of having it easy are fading fast.

[Njoku]

11 hours ago, NanLaew said:

 

Not quite. They have a third choice and that is to ignore the panic merchants wittering away about what may but probably won't eventuate.

 

After 24 pages of tax-panic that's based on a total lack of official information, this thread is only being kept afloat by groundless scaremongering and conjecture. The limited and questionable entertainment value has already evaporated.

Where I totally agree with you on the panic that has set in over this and the many half truths etc its still a fact that living here over 180 days that you remit funds into the country and can be shown ie in a Thai bank account, the need to lodge a tax return is required, absolutely no way around that, for those that are bullet proof and want to ignore, go right ahead, as in my country my accountant TGF told me there tax office is linked to Finacial institutions here just like back home, by all means if you like living on the edge and maybe one day get a call or face a new requirement, just do it dont lodge, a lot of the discussion has been about what they could do to make expats comply, we are a soft target, what does it take for there government which ever department to issue a directive, example, to Immigration for an expat on his second or longer long stay visa to supply a clearance letter from there tax office when reapplying? They dont have to do much at all, everyones falling into line lodging there 90 days reports, you do it without thinking,  we doing it with the a bank letter now, come on man the Thai love affair with paper work is real.

 

My TGF company had to rent a building, 4 floors, I popped in one day, there they where the accounting staff lugging boxes of original recites up 4 floors, (she said when I asked why not data entry into a pc, must be originals and in paper form government requirement) carried a few boxes then bid my farewell, they have to store 10 ys worth, had run out of space at there offices and there offices are hugh, They dont care, can go back 10 ys, they might not bother with you then they might bother with you down the track, pretty easy to look at say retired expats here, we are on lists in there system, every 90 days you update where you are to just pick a name at random and ask them to pop in...

 

In this particular threads its not panic or scare mongering it's a discussion where a few just dont want to discuss they just rubbish everything being put up that inflames others, I bet 80% of those guys end up lodging, armchair warriors they are, typical wingers blowing off steam down the pub, sack the manager cause they lost 3 games in a row type of guys...

 

The smarter people here will just lodge a tax return and restructure there affairs to pay little or no tax just like you do back home, its not hard.

[Njoku]

3 hours ago, flexomike said:

Has to be a Thailand Company Insurance policy to get the deduction

Thanks for the heads up..

[Badrabbit]

Just back from my local Tax office, man spoke English, explained to him, straight away he mentioned the double taxation agreement with the UK, I showed him that I was paying tax in the UK.

He confered with the head man, "you do not pay tax here"

I'm finished with this thread, I'm a simple person with simple finances.

[JimGant]

1 hour ago, The Cyclist said:

And if some pensions are taxable, and some pensions are not taxable, ( Due to DTA's  and not the Revenue Code ) then they would need to be declared on a tax filing to ensure that people were not lying about the source of their pension, and engaging in tax evasion.

My god, man -- what are you smoking? As you've been repeatedly reminded, under today's self assessment system, you only declare on your tax return assessable pensions (and other assessable income). They're not interested in non taxable pension monies. Possibly your first clue is that there is no place on the tax return to indicate non assessable pensions. Duh.

 

That in the future they might want to see all your pension income -- is a possibility. But we ain't there yet.

[Neeranam]

9 hours ago, oldcpu said:

I note the word "established for voluntary participation between companies and employees, serving as a source of funds for employees in cases such as resignation,　retirement, .." ....

 

Is that not what a pension is?   Is that ONLY for Thai Provident Fund and not for a foreigners (because it has to be governed by the Thai government, while a foreign pension is not governed by the Thai government)?

 

I think there are many here that read the Thai tax laws for Thais and think they relate to foreigners. 

[Neeranam]

8 minutes ago, Badrabbit said:

Just back from my local Tax office, man spoke English, explained to him, straight away he mentioned the double taxation agreement with the UK, I showed him that I was paying tax in the UK.

He confered with the head man, "you do not pay tax here"

I'm finished with this thread, I'm a simple person with simple finances.

Did you get that in writing?

[spidermike007]

Never got anything in writing, nor any emails. Is it possible since I opened the account nearly 20 years ago, and provided the tax info at that time, it is not required now? A tax lawyer suggested that might be the case. 

[Yumthai]

10 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Did you get that in writing?

Getting anything in writing today won't protect you from a simple "Rules have changed" later reply, as at each yearly extension of stay renewal where requirements are inconsistent.

[MartinL]

23 minutes ago, Badrabbit said:

Just back from my local Tax office, man spoke English, explained to him, straight away he mentioned the double taxation agreement with the UK, I showed him that I was paying tax in the UK.

He confered with the head man, "you do not pay tax here"

I'm finished with this thread, I'm a simple person with simple finances.

Pretty much exactly my experience at my local district tax office last week.

 

I take it you were refused a TIN.

 

All these reports of TIN refusal because of already-taxed pensions means I'm leaning towards the belief that the RD has told local tax offices that such pensions are not to be taxed further but that bit of info. hasn't been publicly announced for some reason. If my belief is wrong, never mind - it's not the end of the world.

 

I decided at the start of all this that my financial affairs were very simple - pensions and some pre-24 savings - and I knew what was assessable and taxable and calculated how much tax I might have to pay in the worst scenario, taking TEDAs into account. Not much at all and, if tax credits can be applied, then nothing. Not worth worrying yourself senseless over.

[Badrabbit]

Just now, MartinL said:

Pretty much exactly my experience at my local district tax office last week.

 

I take it you were refused a TIN.

 

All these reports of TIN refusal because of already-taxed pensions means I'm leaning towards the belief that the RD has told local tax offices that such pensions are not to be taxed further but that bit of info. hasn't been publicly announced for some reason. If my belief is wrong, never mind - it's not the end of the world.

 

I decided at the start of all this that my financial affairs were very simple - pensions and some pre-24 savings - and I knew what was assessable and taxable and calculated how much tax I might have to pay in the worst scenario, taking TEDAs into account. Not much at all and, if tax credits can be applied, then nothing.

They said you can get a tin if you want but you would need paperwork from the UK, I said no thanks they agreed.