Benjamin arrives at the logical conclusion regarding taxes

[NorthernRyland]

After a fiery battle Benjamin of "Integrity Legal" seems to have finally been beaten down by the tax debate and came the final conclusion. If Thailand won't enforce laws regarding foreigners operating in restricted occupations why are they going to enforce these tax laws? Exactly.

 

He's rightly pointed out many times that no new laws have been passed and they've merely closed a loop hole on an existing law that wasn't being enforced anyways but now he goes one step further and accepts they don't enforce other equally important laws either.

 

This is 100% correct in my opinion. Thailand doesn't enforce laws. They simply don't. It seems beyond them quite honestly so I have zero faith they will embark on enforcing an extremely difficult and costly tax enforcement scheme which targets expats, most of which aren't liable for any significant amount of tax anyways. Not to mention how harmful this would be for foreign investment. 

 

Conclusion is, now is not the time to go home and go crazy. Best advice in my opinion is to sit tight, ignore the fear mongering and wait to see what happens in the coming years.

 

 

 

[KhunHeineken]

As I posted in another thread touting the same youtube video, what he doesn't understand is, detecting and arresting foreigners for breaching Thai labor laws costs money.  Taxing foreigners makes money.  Big difference. 

[NorthernRyland]

14 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

As I posted in another thread touting the same youtube video, what he doesn't understand is, detecting and arresting foreigners for breaching Thai labor laws costs money.  Taxing foreigners makes money.  Big difference. 

 

indeed if they were to enforce any law this would be the one, yet in all these years they haven't. Add this to the long list of laws they don't enforce.

[KhunHeineken]

2 minutes ago, NorthernRyland said:

 

indeed if they were to enforce any law this would be the one, yet in all these years they haven't. Add this to the long list of laws they don't enforce.

Many countries are broke, including mine.  Thailand is no different. 

 

All of these countries are chasing every bit of of revenue they can get, from everywhere, and from everyone.  

 

This is an easy money earner for them, especially if the simple pathway of enforcement is attaching it to the annual extension, and no votes lost at election time.  

 

You are asking, "Why would they chase it?"  Perhaps you should be asking, "Why wouldn't they chase it?"    

[NorthernRyland]

4 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

You are asking, "Why would they chase it?"  Perhaps you should be asking, "Why wouldn't they chase it?"    

Yes but this is Thailand. They struggle immensely when enforcing laws and implementing systems. Look, anything is possible I'm just saying now is not the time to panic.

 

Just wait until they make actual moves towards implementing a system to collect taxes and they will notify us in advance. 

[Phulublub]

1 hour ago, NorthernRyland said:

It seems beyond them quite honestly so I have zero faith they will embark on enforcing an extremely difficult and costly tax enforcement scheme which targets expats,

How many times will this falsehood be trotted out?  It is NOT targetted at expats.

 

PH

[KhunHeineken]

6 minutes ago, NorthernRyland said:

Yes but this is Thailand. They struggle immensely when enforcing laws and implementing systems.

They seem to enforce overstay quiet well.  Have YOU ever overstayed?  If not, why not, enforcement being a problem for them here and all? 

 

7 minutes ago, NorthernRyland said:

Look, anything is possible I'm just saying now is not the time to panic.

Yes, anything is possible. 

 

Who's panicking?  If you have to pay, you have to pay.  Or, leave for 6 months and give them nothing. 

 

9 minutes ago, NorthernRyland said:

ust wait until they make actual moves towards implementing a system to collect taxes and they will notify us in advance. 

Yes, I am waiting until the 11th Hour.  If it's all a non event, great.  If not, they will get me this year, but not again.

 

I have a Plan B, but strangely enough, for many here, their Plan A seems to be it will just ll go away. 

[KhunHeineken]

8 minutes ago, Phulublub said:

How many times will this falsehood be trotted out?  It is NOT targetted at expats.

 

PH

Correct.  It targets "tax residents" and foreigners staying over 180 days are tax residents.  That's most of us. 

[Phulublub]

2 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Correct.  It targets "tax residents" and foreigners staying over 180 days are tax residents.  That's most of us. 

And while we are caught up in this change, we are not the targets.  There is a huge difference and I truly wish tax resident expats would realise that they are actually not that high on the agenda of the Thai authorities.  We are incidental to the scheme of things.

 

PH

[rattlesnake]

Yep.

[KhunHeineken]

1 minute ago, Phulublub said:

We are incidental to the scheme of things.

Link please?

 

They'll take every baht from everyone from everywhere, and why, because they can, and in relation to foreigners, it's because it's easy for them to do so.

[rattlesnake]

Just now, KhunHeineken said:

Link please?

 

They'll take every baht from everyone from everywhere, and why, because they can, and in relation to foreigners, it's because it's easy for them to do so.

 

They will not do it if it is complicated to do. At the first difficulty, they will prefer to drop everything than spend one second struggling, it's a cultural thing.

[Celsius]

1 hour ago, NorthernRyland said:

Conclusion is, now is not the time to go home and go crazy. Best advice in my opinion is to sit tight, ignore the fear mongering and wait to see what happens in the coming years.

 

After this post 14 AseanNow members will go to revenue to beg to be taxed.

[NorthernRyland]

4 minutes ago, Celsius said:

After this post 14 AseanNow members will go to revenue to beg to be taxed.

"I went to my local district office requesting a TIN and they turned me away because they didn't understand why I needed one"

[connda]

1 hour ago, KhunHeineken said:

As I posted in another thread touting the same youtube video, what he doesn't understand is, detecting and arresting foreigners for breaching Thai labor laws costs money.  Taxing foreigners makes money.  Big difference. 

"Taxing foreigners" who don't owe Thailand any money accomplishes two things:  The expense Thailand incurs when, 1) they have to fund a new bureaucracy to seek, find, and force the foreigners who don't owe them money to file tax returns, and 2) when the find them and force them to file tax returns, the foreigner will simple collect all the withholding taxes Thailand has collected over the years on their Thai bank deposits.

Trust me - if Thailand goes that route, it will be an "own goal."  And it will cost them more money than they make in return.

[KhunHeineken]

13 minutes ago, connda said:

"Taxing foreigners" who don't owe Thailand any money accomplishes two things:  The expense Thailand incurs when, 1) they have to fund a new bureaucracy to seek, find, and force the foreigners who don't owe them money to file tax returns, and 2) when the find them and force them to file tax returns, the foreigner will simple collect all the withholding taxes Thailand has collected over the years on their Thai bank deposits.

Trust me - if Thailand goes that route, it will be an "own goal."  And it will cost them more money than they make in return.

Some members have crunched the numbers for pensions, from different countries around the world.   Basically, most pensions, if all of that pension is remitted each month, goes over the tax free threshold.  

 

As for "seek and find" make having a Clearance Certificate part of the documents required at extension time.  No seeking, no finding.  Farang go to the TRD like sheep.  Yes, I know, rocket science for the Thai government.   I'm sure there's no way they would have thought about it.  

 

You are forgetting there are some foreign high wealth individuals in Thailand.  Not every expat retiree is a pensioner living on nothing. 

 

I don't trust you, because you are like the many that think this will all go away, and whilst I hope it does, I don't think it will. 

 

Time will tell. 

[scottiejohn]

7 hours ago, connda said:

the foreigner will simple collect all the withholding taxes Thailand has collected over the years on their Thai bank deposits.

 According to my BKK branch you can only claim back 3 years of withholding tax!

They may of course be wrong T.I.T!

[motdaeng]

10 minutes ago, scottiejohn said:

 According to my BKK branch you can only claim back 3 years of withholding tax!

They may of course be wrong T.I.T!

 

that's correct! 

 

on the other hand, if you don't file the tax return, the trd can review up to 10 years of your financial records ...

wait and see seems to be for most foreigner here a cleaver way out ... 

[connda]

11 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

As for "seek and find" make having a Clearance Certificate part of the documents required at extension time.  No seeking, no finding.  Farang go to the TRD like sheep.  Yes, I know, rocket science for the Thai government.   I'm sure there's no way they would have thought about it.  

 

You are forgetting there are some foreign high wealth individuals in Thailand.  Not every expat retiree is a pensioner living on nothing. 

 

I don't trust you, because you are like the many that think this will all go away, and whilst I hope it does, I don't think it will. 

".... think this all goes away"? <laughs>   

Nothing has changed other than 1) closing a loophole for the time periods for remittances that is aimed more at Thai citizens than anyone else, and 2) people like yourself who are freaking out because some savvy tax consultants stoked the fires of fear in the expat community with ฿฿฿฿฿฿ THB-signs in their eyes.

"Clearance Certificate part of the documents required at extension time..."  😱 Eek! OMG!

Good lord...I'll worry about it IF it happens.  And then I won't worry about it.  My country's DTA drops me below any tax threshold.  But hey!  Feel free to shake in you boots flip-flops. Or maybe your a wearer of Berluti or Christian Louboutin luxury shoes, in which case, maybe you have something to worry about tax-wise.  In that case?  Pay up rich man! 

[connda]

5 hours ago, scottiejohn said:

 According to my BKK branch you can only claim back 3 years of withholding tax!

They may of course be wrong T.I.T!

That is correct.

[newbee2022]

13 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

Many countries are broke, including mine.  Thailand is no different. 

 

All of these countries are chasing every bit of of revenue they can get, from everywhere, and from everyone.  

 

This is an easy money earner for them, especially if the simple pathway of enforcement is attaching it to the annual extension, and no votes lost at election time.  

 

You are asking, "Why would they chase it?"  Perhaps you should be asking, "Why wouldn't they chase it?"    

I agree with 100%. The Damocles sword would be to combine the tax form with visa extension. And yes, why the govt shouldn't do it?

[CallumWK]

Just now, newbee2022 said:

I agree with 100%. The Damocles sword would be to combine the tax form with visa extension. And yes, why the govt shouldn't do it?

 

Because you don't have to be a tax resident to get a 1 year extension.

You can have 1 year extensions and stay less 180 days in Thailand

[BritManToo]

The time to worry is when you need a visa extension, and not before enforcement is implemented. Then they would need to include visas issued by consulates.

And even then you could select another Asian country in which to live.

 

The sky ain't falling .......... Yet!

[newbee2022]

Just now, CallumWK said:

 

Because you don't have to be a tax resident to get a 1 year extension.

You can have 1 year extensions and stay less 180 days in Thailand

Ok so far. It's only a small step to the 90 days report. Then you can see, how many days someone stays in the country. And if you connect your passport stamps with the revenue department the there are no loop hole left 

[oldcpu]

4 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

The time to worry is when you need a visa extension, and not before enforcement is implemented. Then they would need to include visas issued by consulates.

 

In the past - this certificate was only enforced for those entering or leaving Thailand.  It was not enforced for extensions.

 

After a while, the need for the certificate was dropped and ignored by immigration.

 

Sure, this could happen - and this would be a way to try and enforce taxation , ... but will it happen?  Who knows.  For certain I don't know (where I am skeptical that it will happen).

 

 

4 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

The sky ain't falling .......... Yet!

 Agree.

[CallumWK]

8 minutes ago, newbee2022 said:

Ok so far. It's only a small step to the 90 days report. Then you can see, how many days someone stays in the country. And if you connect your passport stamps with the revenue department the there are no loop hole left 

 

It are not just small steps. They are complicated for the conditions the Thai bureaucracy is in. They can't even link traffic fines to the car registration renewals.

Yes of course, they have scare mongered about that in the press as well, but obviously from the reports on this forum, it isn't happening.

Lastly, I stay in Thailand 365 days, but haven't remitted any money in the last 3 years, so I don't need to file a tax return. I can't get an extension because I don't remit any money??

[dinga]

What an extraordinary video [and admission] by Hart.  The OP's correct summation that 'After a fiery battle Benjamin of "Integrity Legal" seems to have finally been beaten down by the tax debate and came the final conclusion. If Thailand won't enforce laws regarding foreigners operating in restricted occupations why are they going to enforce these tax laws?'

 

I'm flabbergasted that any advisor with years of experience in Thailand can provide professional advice without regard to/understanding of the local - including enforcement - environment.

 

There's a very important takeaway here, folks.      

[Presnock]

14 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

Many countries are broke, including mine.  Thailand is no different. 

 

All of these countries are chasing every bit of of revenue they can get, from everywhere, and from everyone.  

 

This is an easy money earner for them, especially if the simple pathway of enforcement is attaching it to the annual extension, and no votes lost at election time.  

 

You are asking, "Why would they chase it?"  Perhaps you should be asking, "Why wouldn't they chase it?"    

well, 136 countries signed on to the OECD agreement so I have notice some other countries too making tax chnges...latest being Spain which announced that they would charge a 100% tax on houses sold to anyone other than the EU including those from the UK that purchases houses in Spain.  Thailand will continue debating on the announced draft tax bill and who knows how long that will take to come to fruition and in addition, we are now in the file your 2024 taxes so that should be interesting too to see any numbers of foreigners filing and amounts the revenue dept have been able to get from expats.  Best of luck to all.

[Ben Zioner]

Dunno, but we might well see a stream of  "Bad Falang not Pay tax" headlines in the Bangkok Post, or other garbage outlets.

 

TRD might set up a team to come up with one public flogging a week to scare foreigners into paying their taxes. That's the Thai way isn't.

[newbee2022]

5 minutes ago, CallumWK said:

 

It are not just small steps. They are complicated for the conditions the Thai bureaucracy is in. They can't even link traffic fines to the car registration renewals.

Yes of course, they have scare mongered about that in the press as well, but obviously from the reports on this forum, it isn't happening.

Lastly, I stay in Thailand 365 days, but haven't remitted any money in the last 3 years, so I don't need to file a tax return. I can't get an extension because I don't remit any money??

Yes, that's what I am thinking about. You have to fill in the PND 90 and go to the Revenue to let it be stamped "No taxes". That is what the office in CM told me in person. So to do nothing but ignore the law doesn't seem acceptable for me