Question about family law re parental rights when marrying after the child is born

[tomster]

OK, so asking this for a friend.

 

He has a 4 year old daughter with a Thai woman that is his girlfriend, not wife. They have never been married and were just boyfriend and girlfriend when the child was born.

 

He is on the birth certificate.

 

His relationship with the Thai woman is quite stormy and this results in the kid sometimes having to go to Isaan to stay with the family, while things settle down.

 

He has been told that if he marries the mother of his child, he will gain the same parental rights immediately as he would have had if they were married when the child was born.

 

I was under the impression that he would need to go to court and get recognized as the father to get these rights (as I have had to do in the past with my son), but he is adamant that the same parental rights are instantly given if he marries her now.

 

Is he correct on this or will he still need to go to court to get recognized as the father legally in Thailand to get equal rights over the child (in the eyes of the courts)?

 

Thanks in advance.

[DrJack54]

OP, begs the question what's the reason behind idea of marriage? 

If it's to facilitate obtaining a Non O + extensions based on parent of Thai child then state that.

If your friend has idea of Non O marriage+ annual extensions then state that.

How is he currently living in Thailand 

Is friend's name on child's birth certificate.

Here is thread.

In thread I posted thread where ubonjoe posts some helpful links.

https://aseannow.com/topic/1327020-extension-of-stay-based-on-having-a-thai-child/

[tomster]

He is already on a non O extension based on the kid, but this is facilitated by the mother of the kid.

 

It's complicated but the question is the question, his visa status is not the issue.

[KhunLA]

He's on  the birth certificate, he IS the father, and has full parental rights.  Whether he'll be able to exercise them  may be a different story 

 

'Stormy' ... might want to advise him to pass on getting married, as no reason to.

[tomster]

2 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

He's on  the birth certificate, he IS the father, and has full parental rights.  Whether he'll be able to exercise them  may be a different story 

 

'Stormy' ... might want to advise him to pass on getting married, as no reason to.

That is incorrect, unless you are married when the child is born you are legally not recognized by the Thai courts as the father of the child regardless of being on the birth certificate. You can get a Non 0 extension as immigration will normally allow this, but that does not make you the legal guardian of the child.

 

This is something I dealt with myself several years ago, I am very familiar with this part of the law.

 

The question is and it's quite interesting - if you marry the mother of your child AFTER the child is born do you get the same rights as if you were married WHEN the child was born.

 

Visa status is not relevant here so maybe I have asked in the wrong forum, and it needs to the parenting forum?

 

https://aseannow.com/forum/96-family-and-children/

[DrJack54]

7 minutes ago, tomster said:

Visa status is not relevant here so maybe I have asked in the wrong forum, and it needs to the parenting forum?

Yes your alternative forum is 

https://aseannow.com/forum/193-marriage-and-family/ 

 

You state visa status not relevant.

There is more to being legal father to live in Thailand with extensions from a Non O. 

 

You also point out that you have personal experience in similar situation.

Currently your friend has cooperation from mother. That can change.

You state...."His relationship with the Thai woman is quite stormy and this results in the kid sometimes having to go to Isaan to stay with the family, while things settle down" 

 

Marriage is NOT an alternative many would suggest. 

 

[FritsSikkink]

6 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

You state...."His relationship with the Thai woman is quite stormy and this results in the kid sometimes having to go to Isaan to stay with the family, while things settle down" 

 

Marriage is NOT an alternative many would suggest. 

 

Agree, if they both can't take care of the child properly because of problems in the relationship, why marry?

[wombat]

Personally, I'd have nothing to do with this at all.

East meets West and never the twain shall meet.

[bradiston]

2 hours ago, tomster said:

OK, so asking this for a friend.

 

He has a 4 year old daughter with a Thai woman that is his girlfriend, not wife. They have never been married and were just boyfriend and girlfriend when the child was born.

 

He is on the birth certificate.

 

His relationship with the Thai woman is quite stormy and this results in the kid sometimes having to go to Isaan to stay with the family, while things settle down.

 

He has been told that if he marries the mother of his child, he will gain the same parental rights immediately as he would have had if they were married when the child was born.

 

I was under the impression that he would need to go to court and get recognized as the father to get these rights (as I have had to do in the past with my son), but he is adamant that the same parental rights are instantly given if he marries her now.

 

Is he correct on this or will he still need to go to court to get recognized as the father legally in Thailand to get equal rights over the child (in the eyes of the courts)?

 

Thanks in advance.

Sorry to butt in, but is said friend really going to rely on the replies on this forum to decide his future relationship with his child? Go see a lawyer, surely!

[Theforgotten1]

If the gf is friendly take her to the family court to legitimize your parenthood status, you don’t need solicitors they only translate for you , you will have a hearing which is simple , then a month for change of mind then given the papers. Costs about 1 thousand baht ish 

[tomster]

2 hours ago, bradiston said:

Sorry to butt in, but is said friend really going to rely on the replies on this forum to decide his future relationship with his child? Go see a lawyer, surely!

No, he is not, he does not know I have posted it - I am doing so because I am in a similar situation with my second child and was wondering if anybody on here had done something similar.

 

And as usual, he is asking different lawyers and getting different answers.

[tomster]

20 minutes ago, Theforgotten1 said:

If the gf is friendly take her to the family court to legitimize your parenthood status, you don’t need solicitors they only translate for you , you will have a hearing which is simple , then a month for change of mind then given the papers. Costs about 1 thousand baht ish 

With respect that is very bad advice, you should always, always, always have a good lawyer with you in court for anything important in Thailand unless you read and speak legal Thai as well as a Thai lawyer.

[thailand49]

Personally, tell your friend

get a DNA test unless the kid is a dead ringer to your friend🤣

[rattlesnake]

5 hours ago, tomster said:

The question is and it's quite interesting - if you marry the mother of your child AFTER the child is born do you get the same rights as if you were married WHEN the child was born.

 

I did this and in Thailand, in my experience, the answer is yes. In France, however, it wasn't the case and my wife and I had to submit a joint declaration to the family court in order for me to be given parental rights. We never even knew this for years, until I went to renew my son's passport in France and they told me I had no rights, much to my astonishment.

 

So your friend may want to check out the requirements in his own country in this respect, just out of anticipation for the future.

[Confuscious]

8 hours ago, tomster said:

OK, so asking this for a friend.

 

He has a 4 year old daughter with a Thai woman that is his girlfriend, not wife. They have never been married and were just boyfriend and girlfriend when the child was born.

 

He is on the birth certificate.

 

His relationship with the Thai woman is quite stormy and this results in the kid sometimes having to go to Isaan to stay with the family, while things settle down.

 

He has been told that if he marries the mother of his child, he will gain the same parental rights immediately as he would have had if they were married when the child was born.

 

I was under the impression that he would need to go to court and get recognized as the father to get these rights (as I have had to do in the past with my son), but he is adamant that the same parental rights are instantly given if he marries her now.

 

Is he correct on this or will he still need to go to court to get recognized as the father legally in Thailand to get equal rights over the child (in the eyes of the courts)?

 

Thanks in advance.

I was in the same situation and can relate my story:

1. I was on the birth certificate of the child, but being on the Birth Certificate DOES NOT gives you automatic parental rights.
     Parental rights, in some extent, have to been granted by a COURT ORDER.
2. Even with an court order, Issaan "laws" grant the mother FULL RIGHTS over the child until the age of 21 years.
     Example: if you would buy a house on the childs name, even with a court order that the child would be the only beneficiary of the house, the mother will have the FULL CUSTODY over the child and his/hers belongings.
     In 2011 I needed to go to the City hall to apply for a ID-Card for my child and, even while I had the FULL CUSTODY over my child on the divorce certificate, the clerck at the city hall wanted to see my wife to sign for the ID-Card of the child.

 

[khunPer]

8 hours ago, KhunLA said:

He's on  the birth certificate, he IS the father, and has full parental rights.  Whether he'll be able to exercise them  may be a different story 

Unfortunately not. Your need a DNA test and court approval if not married to the mother.

[khunPer]

3 hours ago, tomster said:

No, he is not, he does not know I have posted it - I am doing so because I am in a similar situation with my second child and was wondering if anybody on here had done something similar.

 

And as usual, he is asking different lawyers and getting different answers.

In reply to your situation.
I was not married to the Thai mother of my daughter. However, we had and still have an excellent relationship – we are living together as family – so nothing to worry about in my case, wherefore no DNA-test and court approval.

 

At the child's age of 7 years you can apply for a fathership certificate at the local amphor-district office. Child and mother needs to be present and both confirm the fathership. This certificate was in my case thereafter legalized and used for my daughter's citizenship in my European home country.

[Forseman]

4 hours ago, khunPer said:

Unfortunately not. Your need a DNA test and court approval if not married to the mother.

i have passed court and legalised my child in 2023, there was no a DNA test requirement (Bangkok)

[Forseman]

4 hours ago, khunPer said:

This certificate was in my case thereafter legalized and used for my daughter's citizenship in my European home country.

Due to my experience, birth certificate is enough for farang-country citizenship obtaining 

[tomster]

Thanks for all the replies.

 

However, it still leaves the original question unanswered.

 

If you are on the birth certificate but not married when the child is born, then marry afterwards do you get the same rights as you would get if you were married when the child was born, or do you need to either go to court or wait until they are 7 and do it at the local amphur.

 

This guy seems to imply that you do get full rights by marrying (the last sentence of the video), but I can't see where on the internet that backs this up:

 

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?extid=MSG-UNK-UNK-UNK-COM_GK0T-GK1C&v=395069283668798

 

There are a few people I know that are living with their girlfriend and kids but are not married (including myself), it would be interesting for them (and me) to know what the actual law is on this is.

 

Note this is not a visa related question, if you are living with the child and the mother and on the birth certificate immigration will give you a Non 0 extension.

 

This is about the legal status of guardianship and what happens if the marriage then goes South and you divorce - are you then the father in the eyes of the law or do you still need to go to court.

 

An example of how this might affect somebody in real life is putting a property in the child's name, if things went south and the relationship with the mother broke down after the remarry, if you were not registered properly as the father she could sell the property and you wouldn't be able to stop it, as far as I know.

Or applying for a passport for another country for the child would require documentation saying you are the legal father, but would you have it if you married after the child was born...?

[khunPer]

16 hours ago, Forseman said:

Due to my experience, birth certificate is enough for farang-country citizenship obtaining 

Might depend on country.

[khunPer]

16 hours ago, Forseman said:

i have passed court and legalised my child in 2023, there was no a DNA test requirement (Bangkok)

Sounds positive, normally DNA is always mentioned – how old was your child?

[khunPer]

7 hours ago, tomster said:

Thanks for all the replies.

 

However, it still leaves the original question unanswered.

 

If you are on the birth certificate but not married when the child is born, then marry afterwards do you get the same rights as you would get if you were married when the child was born, or do you need to either go to court or wait until they are 7 and do it at the local amphur.

 

This guy seems to imply that you do get full rights by marrying (the last sentence of the video), but I can't see where on the internet that backs this up:

 

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?extid=MSG-UNK-UNK-UNK-COM_GK0T-GK1C&v=395069283668798

 

There are a few people I know that are living with their girlfriend and kids but are not married (including myself), it would be interesting for them (and me) to know what the actual law is on this is.

 

Note this is not a visa related question, if you are living with the child and the mother and on the birth certificate immigration will give you a Non 0 extension.

 

This is about the legal status of guardianship and what happens if the marriage then goes South and you divorce - are you then the father in the eyes of the law or do you still need to go to court.

 

An example of how this might affect somebody in real life is putting a property in the child's name, if things went south and the relationship with the mother broke down after the remarry, if you were not registered properly as the father she could sell the property and you wouldn't be able to stop it, as far as I know.

Or applying for a passport for another country for the child would require documentation saying you are the legal father, but would you have it if you married after the child was born...?

If you have joint custody – as married or legalized parenthood – both parents need to be present in a number of cases, herunder obtaining or renewing a Thai passport for a minor (until 21 years old). Same might be the case with a foreign passport, my country (Denmark) require both parents to be present when applying for passport, both first time and renewing, as long as the child is minor (under 18 years in Denmark).

To my knowledge sole-custody is a family court matter.

 

When property is registered in the name of a minor, it is extremely difficult – if possible at all – to sell, transfer, morgate, or register any servitudes on the title deed. The common advise about using a minor as land holder is that ane registrations (loan, habitation rights etc.) shall be done before the land is transferred to a minor. It would be rare if a guardian can sell or transfer a minor's land.

 

For banks it was in my case the by bank registered guardian that could handle the account. Some were registered with my girlfriend – the mother – as guardian, and she needed to sign. Other accounts were registered with me as guardian, and I could dispose. Both my banks could only register one guardian. The minor can have his/her own ATM-card at a certain age.

 

A minor can hold shares – for example in a Thai company limited – but could in my case not get a trading account for SET equities; presumably because it a matter of buying and selling done by the guardian.

 

In reply to the legal rights, here is an English translation of the articles in question in the "Thailand Civil and Commercial Code (part III)", which also answers you OP-question...

 

Section 1546. A child born of a woman who is not married to a man is deemed to be the legitimate child of such woman.

 

Section 1547. A child born of the parents who are not married to each other is legitimate by the subsequent marriage of the parents, or by the registration made on application by the father, or by a judgment of the Court.

 

Section 1548. When legitimation is applied for by the father, the child and the mother must give consent to the applicant.

 

In case where the child and the mother do not appear before the Registrar for giving the consent, the Registrar shall notify the child and the mother of the father’s application for registration. If the child or the mother raises no objection or does not give the consent within sixty days after the acceptance of the notification by the child or mother, it is presumed that the child or the mother does not give consent. The period of time shall be extended to one hundred and eighty days in case where the child or the mother has been outside Thailand.

 

In case where the child or the mother raises an objection that the applicant is not the father, or does not give the consent, or is unable to give the consent, the registration for legitimation must be effected by a judgment of the Court.

 

After the Court had pronounced a judgment effecting the registration of the legitimation and the judgment has been produced to the registrar for registration, the Registrar shall effect the registration. 

 

Source link for English Translation of the full law (copy the URL-address):
https://www.samuiforsale.com/law-texts/thailand-civil-code-part-3.html#1535

[tomster]

4 hours ago, khunPer said:

Section 1547. A child born of the parents who are not married to each other is legitimate by the subsequent marriage of the parents, or by the registration made on application by the father, or by a judgment of the Court.

I researched this a bit further and it does seem that law recognizes marriage by the parents after birth date as the same as being married when the child is born.

 

Section 1547 addresses this.

 

So that is the new thing I learned today - there are 4 ways, not 3 ways of being registered as the father of a child under Thai law:

 

1. Being married to the mother of the child at the time of the birth of the child

2. Marrying the mother of the child at a later date (unspecified timeline and you will need to prove you are the biological father)

3, Court legitimized via legal process

4, Mutual agreement registration at the local Amphur after the the child is 7-8 years old (exact age of child not specified)