Trump & Netanyahu Press Conference: U.S. will "take over" and "own" the Gaza Strip.

[Patong2021]

17 hours ago, scottiejohn said:

Wouldn't occupying Gaza be exactly that?  

 

If you want to get technical  and be historically accurate,  much of the Gaza population are arab occupiers. The population prior to the collapse of the Ottoman Empire was small and there was a  jewish population. There were arabs, but they were mostly Bedouin.  The core arab population has no familial ties to the majority of arabs who now live in Gaza. 

During WWI the Turks expelled jews from Gaza,. After the collapse of the  Ottoman Empire, the jews returned. Much of their property had been looted or was occupied by Arabs.  With the partition of  British occuped  Israel, and Transjordan, and the custody  of Gaza assigned to Egypt, Gaza became  host to a large Arab population who were told by Arab  nations to leave the state of Israel as it would be destroyed. Many migrated to Gaza. The Bedouin were driven from their lands by occupying non resident arabs. The indigenous arab families saw their lands and properties seized by arab migrant squatters.

 

And now we come to great enlightened political pundits like you. Your position ignores the rights of the Bedouin, and the original arab clans, most of whom had no problem with their  Israeli neighbors. Your position dipossesses these arabs in favour of a large and dominating group of arabs who are foreign to Gaza. If you were to say, that Bedouin grazing rights, and the original Gaza tribal clan property claims  must be respected and their lands reurned then you would be arguing from a position of moral integrity. Unfortunately, you are not.

[NanLaew]

9 hours ago, Patong2021 said:

Criticize him all you want, but at least Trump has tried to come up with an option that will treat the arabs  humanely, and to faciliate and support peace and prosperity. The current methods don't work.

 

Expropriation of land and forced exile is humane treatment?

 

You read it here first.

[MicroB]

17 hours ago, NanLaew said:

 

Expropriation of land and forced exile is humane treatment?

 

You read it here first.

 

 

Trumpf read about a version of this plan before, attempted by his people. Its was called Madagaskarplan. Following pogroms in  Russia, Zionist groups seriously debated the plan to resettle Russian Jews in Africa, but they rejected this as unworkable; I suppose some of Trumpf acolytes/apologists would applaud this and call it out of the box thinking.

 

By the 30s, British fascists picked up on this. At the time, there was a march of fascism across Europe, and various governments developed plans to resettle Jewish people in Africa. The Nazis developed a policy of increasing violence and discrmination to encourage Jews to self-deport.

 

In 1940, the Nazis cooked up an idea to deport all Jews to Madagascar. With the fall of France and the United Kingdom, the Germans would "persuade" France to give up Madagascar. They would then requisition the entire British Merchant Navy to conduct deportations. The whole operation would be financed through seized Jewish assets. At one point, the plans were so well advanced, that Hans Frank paused work on creating a Warsaw Ghetto.

 

But as said, it wasn't just the Germans thinking like this. World Jewish Relife has provided excerpts from Hansard, about debate in the British Partliament, between mainstream polititicians about resettlemen t of German Jews

 

https://www.worldjewishrelief.org/blog/2018/11/21/speeches-from-parliament-that-led-to-the-kindertransport/

 

The language used is fascinating. Its all about long term resettlement of Jews, as if that was the solution to Nazis going around beating them up, with one MP even asking if Germany had been asked if they could help out in the resettlement to various desolate parts of Africa and South America.

 

Obviously there are many many flaws in Trumpf's obnoxious and stupid plan. A major problem is Hamas and all the other armed groups/militias/terrorists. I can't see them willingly marching out to take their spots in some tented city in Sinai. Even if they did, I suspect Egypt would not let them retain their side arms. And in the last few days, they have resumed their displays of armed force.

 

So what to do with them. 2.5 years of aerial bombardments has not diminished their numbers, nor their resolve. Field Marshall Wavell observed that "all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman". Someone will have to occupy the ground, and will need to clear probably a fanatical resistance that has little lose. Estimates vary, but most give Hamas; strength as being about 25,000 left, I suppose best described as light infantrymen. While they may lack access to heavy munitions, they have the advantage of knowing the lay of the land. The IDF reports the area is extensively mined with communication tunnels and reinforced C&C bunkers. The IDF has about 170,000 activated troops, and about 300,000 reservists.

 

Currently the IDF has 3 divisions in Gaza, and 4 divisions in Lebonan/Golan Heights. They have ongoing operations againt Hezbollah remnants still, there is uncertaintly about the stability and intentions of the new Syrian government. The Syrian Army, constituting the former regime army that has pledged loyalty to the incoming government, plus the numerous previously anti-government militias, remain a formidable fighting force. The Lebanese Army is largely US equipped, and is of significance. Israel cannot afford to weaken its Northern Command, and it has to allow for troop rotations.

 

Without mobilising the Reserve, the IDF has a float of about 3 divisions, based on Israeli concepts of a reinforced division. Conventional doctrine says a 3:1 ration, at least, is needed to take land. Defenders facing a 6:1 disadvantage can likely succeed in a holding action. Israel would need to commit at least 2 extra divisions to Gaza if it expects to clear the ground for Trumps stupid idea. Leaving 1 division as a roving reserve. Unless it mobilises the reserves, it doesn't have enough troops.

 

I don't sense there is much enthusiasm for more Israeli blood to be expended to support what would be essentially an American Protectorate. There isn't enough IDF troops, without jeopardizing the safety of Israel. Israel still faces nominally unfriendly forces in Egypt and Jordan, that its obligated to defend against.  And this is based on a conservative estimate; if there was an evacuation of Gazans, expect Hamas could swell its ranks by 2x, through bringing other groups under a unified command, and through increased recruitment.

 

Edward De Bono, in his lateral thinking, proposed hsi solution, which Israeli partially tried. He said give Hamas $3 billion a year, which is reduced based on every rocket hitting Israel. For at least 5 years, Israel channeled about $15m of Qatari money a year for at least 5 years, probably more. This was supposedly to pay Hamas's  wages., with no provision for reduction in the case of attack.

 

The reason De Bono suggested a much larger amount was not based on any calculation what Gaza needed, but what sort of number is needed to transcend nationalistic urges; everyone can be brought.. Hamas really did need money to support public services. It needed a modicum of support on the street to claim legitimacy compared to the PLO and the numerous new militias emerging. The Qatari money probably covered that. $3bn into the pockets of some ex-jailbirds might have motivated them. Of course, some consider De Bono to be a charlatan.

[Bkk Brian]

22 minutes ago, MicroB said:

 

 

Trumpf read about a version of this plan before, attempted by his people. Its was called Madagaskarplan. Following pogroms in  Russia, Zionist groups seriously debated the plan to resettle Russian Jews in Africa, but they rejected this as unworkable; I suppose some of Trumpf acolytes/apologists would applaud this and call it out of the box thinking.

 

By the 30s, British fascists picked up on this. At the time, there was a march of fascism across Europe, and various governments developed plans to resettle Jewish people in Africa. The Nazis developed a policy of increasing violence and discrmination to encourage Jews to self-deport.

 

In 1940, the Nazis cooked up an idea to deport all Jews to Madagascar. With the fall of France and the United Kingdom, the Germans would "persuade" France to give up Madagascar. They would then requisition the entire British Merchant Navy to conduct deportations. The whole operation would be financed through seized Jewish assets. At one point, the plans were so well advanced, that Hans Frank paused work on creating a Warsaw Ghetto.

 

But as said, it wasn't just the Germans thinking like this. World Jewish Relife has provided excerpts from Hansard, about debate in the British Partliament, between mainstream polititicians about resettlemen t of German Jews

 

https://www.worldjewishrelief.org/blog/2018/11/21/speeches-from-parliament-that-led-to-the-kindertransport/

 

The language used is fascinating. Its all about long term resettlement of Jews, as if that was the solution to Nazis going around beating them up, with one MP even asking if Germany had been asked if they could help out in the resettlement to various desolate parts of Africa and South America.

 

Obviously there are many many flaws in Trumpf's obnoxious and stupid plan. A major problem is Hamas and all the other armed groups/militias/terrorists. I can't see them willingly marching out to take their spots in some tented city in Sinai. Even if they did, I suspect Egypt would not let them retain their side arms. And in the last few days, they have resumed their displays of armed force.

 

So what to do with them. 2.5 years of aerial bombardments has not diminished their numbers, nor their resolve. Field Marshall Wavell observed that "all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman". Someone will have to occupy the ground, and will need to clear probably a fanatical resistance that has little lose. Estimates vary, but most give Hamas; strength as being about 25,000 left, I suppose best described as light infantrymen. While they may lack access to heavy munitions, they have the advantage of knowing the lay of the land. The IDF reports the area is extensively mined with communication tunnels and reinforced C&C bunkers. The IDF has about 170,000 activated troops, and about 300,000 reservists.

 

Currently the IDF has 3 divisions in Gaza, and 4 divisions in Lebonan/Golan Heights. They have ongoing operations againt Hezbollah remnants still, there is uncertaintly about the stability and intentions of the new Syrian government. The Syrian Army, constituting the former regime army that has pledged loyalty to the incoming government, plus the numerous previously anti-government militias, remain a formidable fighting force. The Lebanese Army is largely US equipped, and is of significance. Israel cannot afford to weaken its Northern Command, and it has to allow for troop rotations.

 

Without mobilising the Reserve, the IDF has a float of about 3 divisions, based on Israeli concepts of a reinforced division. Conventional doctrine says a 3:1 ration, at least, is needed to take land. Defenders facing a 6:1 disadvantage can likely succeed in a holding action. Israel would need to commit at least 2 extra divisions to Gaza if it expects to clear the ground for Trumps stupid idea. Leaving 1 division as a roving reserve. Unless it mobilises the reserves, it doesn't have enough troops.

 

I don't sense there is much enthusiasm for more Israeli blood to be expended to support what would be essentially an American Protectorate. There isn't enough IDF troops, without jeopardizing the safety of Israel. Israel still faces nominally unfriendly forces in Egypt and Jordan, that its obligated to defend against.  And this is based on a conservative estimate; if there was an evacuation of Gazans, expect Hamas could swell its ranks by 2x, through bringing other groups under a unified command, and through increased recruitment.

 

Edward De Bono, in his lateral thinking, proposed hsi solution, which Israeli partially tried. He said give Hamas $3 billion a year, which is reduced based on every rocket hitting Israel. For at least 5 years, Israel channeled about $15m of Qatari money a year for at least 5 years, probably more. This was supposedly to pay Hamas's  wages., with no provision for reduction in the case of attack.

 

The reason De Bono suggested a much larger amount was not based on any calculation what Gaza needed, but what sort of number is needed to transcend nationalistic urges; everyone can be brought.. Hamas really did need money to support public services. It needed a modicum of support on the street to claim legitimacy compared to the PLO and the numerous new militias emerging. The Qatari money probably covered that. $3bn into the pockets of some ex-jailbirds might have motivated them. Of course, some consider De Bono to be a charlatan.

No Trump got it from Professor Joseph Pelzman

 

An Economic Plan for Rebuilding Gaza: A BOT Approach

The Hamas experiment, since Israel’s unilateral withdrawal from Gaza in 2005, has proven to be a complete failure. The reconstruction of Gaza after the October 7th Hamas invasion of Israel and year-long war between Israel and Hamas creates an opportunity to approach Gaza from a new paradigm based on a purely economic analysis. A computable general equilibrium (CGE) model presented in the paper is used to track a three-sector Gaza economy (tourism, agriculture and high tech) and will address alternative pathways for the development of this sovereign non-militarized green economy.  

https://www.skytopstrategies.com/capitalism-today-articles/an-economic-plan-for-rebuilding-gaza-a-bot-approach

 

Plan/Study download

https://ceesmena.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/An-Economic-Plan-for-Rebuilding-Gaza__A-BOT-Approach-_FINAL_July-21_2024.pdf

[NanLaew]

Thanks to both @MicroB and @Bkk Brian for references to insightful and enlightening plans, both historical and more recent. Both reference nation-forming and economic rationales as incentives for peace-making but hasn't Hamas and Hezbollah raison d'être been primarily couched in religious hegemony, cultural domination and the all-embracing intolerance that comes with it?

 

I broadly agree that any freedom fighter has a price and "everyone can be bought" but deep seated religious hatred and bigotry endures regardless of how much money is thrown at it. Look at Ireland for an example of a fragile and superficial peace where decades of financial boosters and incentives hasn't really cooled the core of an intense, mutual, cross-generational hatred and revulsion.