Visit to tax office, Koh Samui,(today)

[crazykopite]

If they want money off me they know where I live until

that happens I will sit back and chill at 74 and on a frozen pension since 65 I’m not going to lose any sleep if they tell me any different I will

divide my time between Thailand and the Philippines 

[newbee2022]

On 2/11/2025 at 5:22 PM, CFCol said:

I visited the Nathon branch office today and although they were very friendly and eager to help, they had no English so conversations were held through Google translate. Eventually, after 1 hour they told me I didn't have to fill in a return. Being cautious of this, I asked for the decision in writing. They escorted me to the headquarters of the Revenue Department on Samui and into the office of the director himself.

He was very friendly and helpful,(even offered coffee). His English was perfect.

Results as follows,(this applies to UK pensions)

1. UK old age pensions ARE TAXABLE in Thailand , if remitted, and are part of your total assessable income.

2. Government service pensions are not assessable and do not have to be declared,

even if remitted, but proof of source may be required if audited.

3. Allowable deductions for the year:

a) B60k personal allowance.

b) B100k for expenses,(this is a blanket allowance and does not require any proof of expenditure).

c) B190k if you are over 65yrs. of age

Once you have deducted these from your assessable income you then get the 1st B150k at zero rate of tax. If after that you still have a positive balance you MUST file a return. If there is no balance left, you do not have to file a return but can if you wish.

If. You wish to offset UK tax already paid, this should be filed along with your return, enclosing proof from the relevant authority. There is no space on the tax forms specific to this.

Hope that makes things clearer.

Yes, same my experience when I opened my thread (#tax files) 4 weeks ago. 👍🤗

[ChaiyaTH]

Once again a misleading and inaccurate detailled post of someone their fk'ed up decision to go there and do it wrong... So now people think they found the truth or reality or solution, by just filing randomly taxes, at random locations in Thailand, with random employees saying Yes or No.

This changes like zero to the reality, in case of enforcement, checks, audits etc. It also tells others zero about what is now really going on.

[anrcaccount]

Thanks for your report.

 

However, yet again, we have another report of someone who conveniently, owes no Thai tax.

 

Wake me up when someone pays Thai tax on their 30M THB remitted for a villa purchase, or even the 2M THB they remitted last year to buy a car.

 

It's telling that we have not seen a single report, of anyone actually paying any significant amount of tax.

 

 

[TheAppletons]

5 minutes ago, anrcaccount said:

Thanks for your report.

 

However, yet again, we have another report of someone who conveniently, owes no Thai tax.

 

Wake me up when someone pays Thai tax on their 30M THB remitted for a villa purchase, or even the 2M THB they remitted last year to buy a car.

 

It's telling that we have not seen a single report, of anyone actually paying any significant amount of tax.

 

 

 

  True.  We have, however, seen that the TRD officers in the Hua Hin/PKK region are attempting to levy tax against non-assessable income, e.g., US Social Security.  That's a bit unsettling.

 

  

[Moonlover]

12 hours ago, Sheryl said:

 

If that is a UK military pension it is non-assesssble in Thailand,  period. So specified in the UK-Thai DTA. 

 

The UK State OAP on the other hand IS assessable.

 

Non-assessable income does not get declared even if you do file.  Only assessable income is to be reported. 

I'd ascertained that quite a long time ago Sheryl, but it's really good to read that it came out of the mouth of a senior TRD official.

 

It's my assertion now that those that are quite sure that they are NOT liable for tax in Thailand to keep well away from the revenue offices. I see absolutely no point in pointing oneself in the spotlight unnecessarily.

 

But keep a good record of ones income, just in case.

[connda]

1 hour ago, TheAppletons said:

 

  True.  We have, however, seen that the TRD officers in the Hua Hin/PKK region are attempting to levy tax against non-assessable income, e.g., US Social Security.  That's a bit unsettling.

 

  

Because the OP was silly enough to bring it to their attention when he in reality owns no taxes.

"I need to file my taxes."
"You no owe money. No need tax paper.  We busy with people who owe money."
"I NEED TO FILE MY TAXES!!!"
"Ok, you owe us tax on your social security!"
"BUT BUT BUT - My social security is exempt!!!"
"You want file taxes.  Ok.  Pay up Farang!"

They ain't gonna learn are they. 

[PJUK88]

Thanks CF col

I was going into the Samui tax office later today but after reading your excellent post I I'm not going to bother now.

[potless]

On 2/12/2025 at 1:36 AM, Presnock said:

IMHO too many foreigners continue to visit local rd offices in which those employees have absolutely less information on non-assessable reporting but in some cases just blatantly lie.

However, I see no harm in putting a spotlight on the incompetence of the TRD chiefs. They have had well over a year to get their regional offices up to speed but have just sat on their hands. Their approach has been to shake the tree to see what falls out. 

In various threads, members of this forum were encouraged to report their experiences at tax offices. Some of these reports have been met with derision and will only deter others from doing the same. IMHO.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[connda]

29 minutes ago, potless said:

However, I see no harm in putting a spotlight on the incompetence of the TRD chiefs. They have had well over a year to get their regional offices up to speed but have just sat on their hands.

Why?  So they can appease overly-paranoid farangs who don't owe the TRD any taxes, but who have been scared s***less by this continued scary-talk on AN forums over the last year about "New Tax Rules" that aren't even new? They tweaked a regulation to close a loop-hole kids, the laws aren't new.

Most expats who have done their homework, have done a dry-run on their tax assessments, and own nothing should just keep their records in a file box and then take a huge Chill-Pill and relax.  Trust me, the Thai government doesn't want to spend money to process paperwork for paranoid farangs who don't owe the Thai government any tax money.

[potless]

9 minutes ago, connda said:

Why?  So they can appease overly-paranoid farangs who don't owe the TRD any taxes, but who have been scared s***less by this continued scary-talk on AN forums over the last year about "New Tax Rules" that aren't even new?

Nothing to do with appeasement. People should be able to have confidence that the information they receive any tax office is correct. 

 

13 minutes ago, connda said:

"New Tax Rules" that aren't even new? They tweaked a regulation to close a loop-hole kids, the laws aren't new.

The laws are not new yet there are tax officials that dont know how to apply them. DTAs for example. Is that the fault of the expat? 

[Presnock]

19 minutes ago, connda said:

Why?  So they can appease overly-paranoid farangs who don't owe the TRD any taxes, but who have been scared s***less by this continued scary-talk on AN forums over the last year about "New Tax Rules" that aren't even new? They tweaked a regulation to close a loop-hole kids, the laws aren't new.

Most expats who have done their homework, have done a dry-run on their tax assessments, and own nothing should just keep their records in a file box and then take a huge Chill-Pill and relax.  Trust me, the Thai government doesn't want to spend money to process paperwork for paranoid farangs who don't owe the Thai government any tax money.

Unless some farang feels like paying any amount whether correct or not just so he can feel ??SAFE??

[samtam]

On 2/11/2025 at 5:22 PM, CFCol said:

Once you have deducted these from your assessable income you then get the 1st B150k at zero rate of tax. If after that you still have a positive balance you MUST file a return. If there is no balance left, you do not have to file a return but can if you wish.

 

Thanks for your report. Unfortunately it varies from other responses, in that your TRD officer says if there are no taxes due, you do not have to file, "but can if you wish". There seems to be a strong indication that you have to file whether it's a null return or not, if I have read the many thousands of words on the subject, and listened correctly to legit tax experts.

 

As I've said previously, I think this year's filing is a test run, to see if TRD can cope with the additional filings, null or otherwise, and indeed whether this exercise raises any additional tax revenue for the state.

 

Unfortunately Thai bureaucracy will just wait to see how it turns out, as it is reactive, rather than proactive in policy making, and it is the Thai way of market research and assessment.

[NorthernRyland]

3 hours ago, potless said:

However, I see no harm in putting a spotlight on the incompetence of the TRD chiefs. They have had well over a year to get their regional offices up to speed but have just sat on their hands.

 

Up to speed on what? When did the Thai government officially come out and say "we are now assessing all groups residing in Thailand over 6 months per year"?

 

You could have gone to your local tax office 5 years ago and told them you remitted money within the same year it was earned and you're residing in Thailand over 6 months per year.  The only thing changed now is the current year loop hole.

[NorthernRyland]

2 hours ago, samtam said:

As I've said previously, I think this year's filing is a test run, to see if TRD can cope with the additional filings, null or otherwise, and indeed whether this exercise raises any additional tax revenue for the state.

 

You mean it's a test run to see if people were stupid enough to fall for the stories in the media and hand over their money?

[potless]

20 minutes ago, NorthernRyland said:

Up to speed on what?

On how to apply a D.T.A. for one. 

 

29 minutes ago, NorthernRyland said:

When did the Thai government officially come out and say "we are now assessing all groups residing in Thailand over 6 months per year"?

Whats that got to do with the fact that there are tax officials who dont know how to assess.

 

30 minutes ago, NorthernRyland said:

You could have gone to your local tax office 5 years ago and told them you remitted money within the same year it was earned and you're residing in Thailand over 6 months per year.

How many expats 5 years ago went to their tax office waving a DTA? According to some reports, at this point in time, their local office still does not  know what a DTA is, let alone 5 years ago.

[samtam]

1 hour ago, NorthernRyland said:

You mean it's a test run to see if people were stupid enough to fall for the stories in the media and hand over their money?

 

No. I'm not handing over any money, as I have none due on tax. What I am unclear about as I've heard it every which way, is whether anyone who is over the threshhold of THB60k, but has no money to pay after assessable income is (way) below a taxable amount, is required to file a null return.

 

Some, including the the Thai RD officer on Carl Turner's webinar, and from reports of visits by expats to RD, have been told "yes". Some, after reports of their visits, have been told "no". 

 

A definitive answer on that, in the official RD guide states:

 

Quote

1. Residents of Thailand If you stay in Thailand for the total of at least 180 days in the tax year, you are considered a “resident of Thailand” for tax purposes. You have to file a return on the income that you received if you meet one of the following conditions: (1) Your total income exceeded 60,000 baht in the tax year. 

 

This seems unequivocal. Why then are RD (apparently) equivocating?

 

 

[NorthernRyland]

58 minutes ago, potless said:

How many expats 5 years ago went to their tax office waving a DTA? According to some reports, at this point in time, their local office still does not  know what a DTA is, let alone 5 years ago.

you're missing the point. The point is you've ALWAYS been liable for taxes but never paid them or even went in to ask. Why is that?

[scottiejohn]

4 minutes ago, NorthernRyland said:

you're missing the point. The point is you've ALWAYS been liable for taxes but never paid them or even went in to ask. Why is that?

Well said!

[samtam]

27 minutes ago, NorthernRyland said:

you're missing the point. The point is you've ALWAYS been liable for taxes but never paid them or even went in to ask. Why is that?

 

Because the Revenue Department didn't issue Por 161 & Por 162.

[anrcaccount]

2 hours ago, samtam said:

2 hours ago, NorthernRyland said:

you're missing the point. The point is you've ALWAYS been liable for taxes but never paid them or even went in to ask. Why is that?

 

Because the Revenue Department didn't issue Por 161 & Por 162.

 

He's correct - You're missing the point. 

 

Foreign remitted income has been taxable in theory for many years, in practice this has never been filed, or been enforced. 

 

The issuance of internal directives Por 161/2 has only changed the theory, it has not changed the practice. 

 

[potless]

3 hours ago, NorthernRyland said:

you're missing the point. The point is you've ALWAYS been liable for taxes but never paid them or even went in to ask. Why is that?

I am not disputing that I may have been liable for taxes in the past. I dont know why you even brought that up. You had previously gone off on a tangent saying "you could have gone to your local tax office 5 years ago....." What relevance does that have to my post where I gave an opinion that there are tax officials that dont know their own rules in the here and now.

You either can agree or disagree with that opinion. It makes no difference to me.

[samtam]

1 hour ago, anrcaccount said:

 

He's correct - You're missing the point. 

 

Foreign remitted income has been taxable in theory for many years, in practice this has never been filed, or been enforced. 

 

The issuance of internal directives Por 161/2 has only changed the theory, it has not changed the practice. 

 

 

And so is a "POR" something one should "ignore"?

 

Obviously, "in your opinion"....

And does your opinion count more than that of say, I dunno, the TRD officer telling me otherwise.

 

🤔

 

I am not suggesting you are right, or that you are wrong. But unfortunately, it's where we are.

 

We all have to decide whether WE are right or the variations on a theme are worthy, or not.

 

Let the chips fall, where they may.

[anrcaccount]

7 minutes ago, samtam said:

 

And so is a "POR" something one should "ignore"?

 

Yes, unless "one" works for the TRD, being the audience the internal directive was written for. 

 

 

 

 

 

[samtam]

7 minutes ago, anrcaccount said:

 

Yes, unless "one" works for the TRD, being the audience the internal directive was written for. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you. But I wish you were running the Thai Revenue Department, with such clarity for its customers. Unfortunately you are not.

And imprecision is an art form in Thailand.

It opens up major "opportunities".

[It's all a misunderstanding....]

[NorthernRyland]

51 minutes ago, potless said:

I am not disputing that I may have been liable for taxes in the past. I dont know why you even brought that up. You had previously gone off on a tangent saying "you could have gone to your local tax office 5 years ago....." What relevance does that have to my post where I gave an opinion that there are tax officials that dont know their own rules in the here and now.

 

 

this has always been the case though. My point was that this is still as of today an imaginary problem you're creating by poking your noise around to see how you can get taxed. The one thing that is going to prevent us from getting taxed for real is the lack of coordination you're observing and this is a GOOD thing.

[potless]

12 hours ago, NorthernRyland said:

 

this has always been the case though. My point was that this is still as of today an imaginary problem you're creating by poking your noise around to see how you can get taxed. The one thing that is going to prevent us from getting taxed for real is the lack of coordination you're observing and this is a GOOD thing.

Thanks for the reply. I am trying to establish where I stand if the day comes when being taxed becomes unavoidable.  My thinking is partly due to problems I have had with the UK tax office in the past and their blunders claiming I owed tax when I clearly didnt. I really want to avoid a similar scenario here, especially as I dont speak Thai, so for me, other members experiences are useful. 

I take your point about the lack of coordination maybe being a good thing but I wouldnt want to rely on that. 

 

[NorthernRyland]

26 minutes ago, potless said:

Thanks for the reply. I am trying to establish where I stand if the day comes when being taxed becomes unavoidable.

I'm pretty sure this will be impossible. Thai people simply do not coordinate and communicate with each other well enough. I wouldn't even trust information from officials as they are often wrong or acting illegally themselves.

 

The only thing you can trust is when they come to you personally and ask for X baht or you need to leave the country. That's always how they've operated here. Sadly certainty is not something they do so you need to work around this.

[potless]

15 minutes ago, NorthernRyland said:

I'm pretty sure this will be impossible. Thai people simply do not coordinate and communicate with each other well enough. I wouldn't even trust information from officials as they are often wrong or acting illegally themselves.

It is proving to be difficult to get clarifications. Examples of misinformation from officials for sure. It has been said  that pre 2024 cash in bank will be exempt but not  investment portfolios according to Expattax and their TRD official. In another thread, tallguyinbangkok gets the opposite advice from an official. Obviously they cant both be right so I may as well toss a coin.

 

28 minutes ago, NorthernRyland said:

 Sadly certainty is not something they do so you need to work around this.

Too true. 

[loslover]

On 2/13/2025 at 11:44 AM, connda said:

Why?  So they can appease overly-paranoid farangs who don't owe the TRD any taxes, but who have been scared s***less by this continued scary-talk on AN forums over the last year about "New Tax Rules" that aren't even new? They tweaked a regulation to close a loop-hole kids, the laws aren't new.

Most expats who have done their homework, have done a dry-run on their tax assessments, and own nothing should just keep their records in a file box and then take a huge Chill-Pill and relax.  Trust me, the Thai government doesn't want to spend money to process paperwork for paranoid farangs who don't owe the Thai government any tax money.

This was my expierence when I was at the Revenue Department in Pak Chong, Nakhon Ratchasima last Tuesday. The officer, a polite lady with decent english, checked my wise transfer of 2024. After I told her, that I dont get any pension from Germany (I am still too young, have to wait 2 years for retirement). she asked where is the money from. I replied thats my savings (most of selling my house in Germany in 2022), I showed her my bank statement from 2022. 

The officer asked me why are you here? You dont owe any taxes. Keep your recordings from 2022 and do nothing else. Only thing I have to do is to translate the bank statement in english, because it is in german. Finally I asked if I could use google translate. The answer was yes, why not.

 

So I took all my papers and left the department.