17 minutes ago, atpeace said:

We disagree and I don't think Thailand going after pre 2024 savings.  They like the rest of the world is grappling with tax residents using their country as a tax haven.  Many people are living here in Thailand earning income and not paying taxes to any country.  Many on this forum feel this is justifiable and I'm not one of them. 

 

"If" Thailand does enforce new taxes on expats, it will be an attempt to tax the freeloaders and their own citizens earning income outside of Thailand. I'm not concerned at this point but it is getting interesting 🙂

Pensions aren't savings.

 

15 minutes ago, JimGant said:

This is an on-going argument -- especially by jingling. Yes, prior to Por 162 -- which exempts all pre 2024 income -- private pension remittances were taxable by Thailand. But Por 162 exempted pre 2024 income, which both traditional and Roth IRAs consist of. Thus, Por 162 'trumps' the DTA language that, otherwise, would make IRA remittances to Thailand taxable.

 

Is that the entire remittance, or only the portion declared as original capital, with capital gains being assessable?

 

If that be the case, what is the cost basis?  Purchase or Dec 31 2023 NAV?

 

 

Just now, Jingthing said:

Pensions aren't savings.

 

OK but they are and you're stuck on it isn't covered by a DTA.  Please show any document that stipulates pensions aren't savings.  We get it - private pensions aren't covered by the DTA and I understand why they aren't covered. 

 

2025 private pensions (saving/investment/whatever) will be assessable but I'm not even sure this will be enforced.

7 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

Is that the entire remittance, or only the portion declared as original capital, with capital gains being assessable?

 

If that be the case, what is the cost basis?  Purchase or Dec 31 2023 NAV?

 

 

Your guess is as good as anyone's.  Is Thailand going to get a forensic tax unit to analyze what portion of 2024 saving are based on cost basis.  I seriously doubt it and hence the pre 2024 exemption.  In the future theoretically earning realized or unrealized will be taxable.  

29 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Pensions aren't savings.

Yes, but IRAs are.

8 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Yes, but IRAs are.

IRAs are pensions according to TRD.

I've documented this before.

30 minutes ago, atpeace said:

OK but they are and you're stuck on it isn't covered by a DTA.  Please show any document that stipulates pensions aren't savings.  We get it - private pensions aren't covered by the DTA and I understand why they aren't covered. 

 

2025 private pensions (saving/investment/whatever) will be assessable but I'm not even sure this will be enforced.

They are.

Remittances taxable only by Thailand.

 

13 minutes ago, atpeace said:

Your guess is as good as anyone's.  Is Thailand going to get a forensic tax unit to analyze what portion of 2024 saving are based on cost basis.  I seriously doubt it and hence the pre 2024 exemption.  In the future theoretically earning realized or unrealized will be taxable.  

As of Dec 31, 2023, my IRA consisted of stock mutual funds. All originally funded with pre 2024 wage income, then every year subsequently, these mutual funds declared dividends and cap gains -- thus more tax deferred INCOME reinvested in the fund. So, by Dec 31, 2023, my IRA was ALL pre 2024 income. That is was ALL tax deferred income, by US tax standards, is a no never mind in the eyes of Por 162. Thus, my IRA balance on Dec 31, 2023 is non assessable income, as far as Thai taxes are concerned. Again, as previously said, Por 162 overrides the DTA language saying this remitted income is primarily taxable by Thailand.

My reading reflects a consensus of tax advisor advice confirmed by TRD.

.

 

2 minutes ago, JimGant said:

As of Dec 31, 2023, my IRA consisted of stock mutual funds. All originally funded with pre 2024 wage income, then every year subsequently, these mutual funds declared dividends and cap gains -- thus more tax deferred INCOME reinvested in the fund. So, by Dec 31, 2023, my IRA was ALL pre 2024 income. That is was ALL tax deferred income, by US tax standards, is a no never mind in the eyes of Por 162. Thus, my IRA balance on Dec 31, 2023 is non assessable income, as far as Thai taxes are concerned. Again, as previously said, Por 162 overrides the DTA language saying this remitted income is primarily taxable by Thailand.

I agree and how some are confused is beyond my understanding.  I think it is the DTA that trips them up but not sure.  Will they go after future earning in private pensions? Maybe...

10 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

My reading reflects a consensus of tax advisor advice confirmed by TRD.

.

 

This thread is going nowhere as all "new Thai tax threads".  It has been anything but interesting... Adios!

33 minutes ago, atpeace said:

We get it - private pensions aren't covered by the DTA and I understand why they aren't covered. 

Actually, they are covered. And the DTA gives not only primary taxation of such pensions to Thailand, but "exclusive" taxation rights. However, the US "saving clause" reduces this to only "primary" taxation rights, meaning, the US has secondary rights -- so can also tax these pensions, but has to absorb a tax credit for the Thai taxes paid.

 

Now, the DTA treats IRA payouts as "pensions," for DTA purposes -- but since IRAs are really tax deferred income/savings -- this is where Por 162 comes into play, and exempts all those pre 2024 IRA savings/income from Thai taxation.

13 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

My reading reflects a consensus of tax advisor advice confirmed by TRD

Sadly, much of this advice is questionable, no doubt due to the lack of any definitive/consistent language out of TRD. A situation where ones own reasoning can make more sense.

1 hour ago, NoDisplayName said:

Is that the entire remittance, or only the portion declared as original capital, with capital gains being assessable?

 

If that be the case, what is the cost basis?  Purchase or Dec 31 2023 NAV?

The annual reinvested cap gains of my stock mutual fund have now become "tax deferred income," same as the original wage that established that stock mutual fund. Thus, Dec 31 2023 value of my IRA is all covered by Por 162 edict -- i.e., it's non assessable savings.

55 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Actually, they are covered. And the DTA gives not only primary taxation of such pensions to Thailand, but "exclusive" taxation rights. However, the US "saving clause" reduces this to only "primary" taxation rights, meaning, the US has secondary rights -- so can also tax these pensions, but has to absorb a tax credit for the Thai taxes paid.

 

Now, the DTA treats IRA payouts as "pensions," for DTA purposes -- but since IRAs are really tax deferred income/savings -- this is where Por 162 comes into play, and exempts all those pre 2024 IRA savings/income from Thai taxation.

Yet other than your opinion about Por 162, I doubt you will be able to cite one Thai tax advisor that supports your reading of that. But I would be happy to be proven wrong about that.

People should realize the mainstream reading at this time is that disbursements from IRAs Roth and Trad, and 401Ks are fully accessable if remitted (but under the DTA not subject to U.S. tax). Nothing about reading them as pre 2024 "savings" and nothing about considering the underlying investments WITHIN them as if they were regular investments outside of retirement account/pensions.

9 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

but under the DTA not subject to U.S. tax

Traditional IRAs and 401ks are certainly subject to US tax, per the saving clause found in all DTAs. So, all this argument about IRAs not being taxable by Thailand, per Por 162, is only a matter of interest, but certainly not one of tax savings -- since either Thailand or the US, or both, will collect your taxes (subject to credit relieve, of course).

8 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Traditional IRAs and 401ks are certainly subject to US tax, per the saving clause found in all DTAs. So, all this argument about IRAs not being taxable by Thailand, per Por 162, is only a matter of interest, but certainly not one of tax savings -- since either Thailand or the US, or both, will collect your taxes (subject to credit relieve, of course).

Again, not savings. Pensions.

We're on different planets on this.

I'm going with the at least current MAINSTREAM interpretation.

Your theory though you back it up, in my curent understanding, lacks mainstream Thai tax advisor agreement.

Again happy to be corrected.

I will be starting a dedicated thread about U.S. private pensions (IRAs and 401ks) based on a PCEC video but it won't be about your theory. It will be about further questions about the mainstream reading which I have been merely repeating. 

You know, you may indeed be "right" but if TRD doesn't think you are, what difference does it make?

6 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Again, not savings. Pensions.

We're on different planets on this.

I'm going with the at least current MAINSTREAM interpretation.

Your theory though you back it up, in my curent understanding, lacks mainstream Thai tax advisor agreement.

Again happy to be corrected.

I will be starting a dedicated thread about U.S. private pensions (IRAs and 401ks) based on a PCEC video but it won't be about your theory. It will be about further questions about the mainstream reading which I have been merely repeating. 

You know, you may indeed be "right" but if TRD doesn't think you are, what difference does it make?

 

There is no consensus by anyone on any tax matters, that has been proven very very clear from day one.....Even after 1,000s of pages of endless boring bla bla bla

 

Just interpret the rules how ever you like and go with that...

16 minutes ago, redwood1 said:

 

There is no consensus by anyone on any tax matters, that has been proven very very clear from day one.....Even after 1,000s of pages of endless boring bla bla bla

 

Just interpret the rules how ever you like and go with that...

Nope.

On social security income there is strong consensus that it is not accassable in Thailand.

If you happen upon a provincial TRD clerk saying it is, you can know they are wrong.

On IRAs and 401ks with Thai tax advisors that back up their assertions with evidence of discussions with credible TRD staff, I have found a consensus.

Withdrawals from such retirement accounts are viewed as private pensions in Thailand if remitted.

If you're a tax resident of Thailand such remittances are accessable in Thailand.

As a Thai tax resident, only Thailand has a right to tax those, not the U.S.

For one example, 

you withdraw 10K USD from a Roth IRA (already not taxed in the US). That 10K if remitted while a tax resident of Thailand is fully accessable.

There is no relevance to the balance of that IRA account before 2024.

There is no relevance if that 10K came from selling one stock in the IRA with basis of 8k with a 2k profit.

It's about the FULL 10K.

There actually is a consensus on that as far as Thai taxation advisors.

Yes there is at least one forum member voice here saying differently, but so far no reports of any Thai tax advisors countering the consensus position I have described.

I would welcome that consensus to be credibly challenged with backup from TRD but unless and until that happens, I think the most sensible position for the typical retired American expat is to take the consensus view as the one to act upon. 

On 3/12/2025 at 3:22 PM, Presnock said:

You can contact expattaxesthailand.com and since you just have a basic question, they advertise a 15-minute free consultation and also say that they have an online self check on assessability of incomes.  Not sure if that will work, but it will only cost you a couple of minutes and no money.

 

Sir quit pumping/ pimping for these slimy, self serving, money grubbing, tax adviser services.......There must be at least be a dozen of these shady places around now...

18 minutes ago, redwood1 said:

 

Sir quit pumping/ pimping for these slimy, self serving, money grubbing, tax adviser services.......There must be at least be a dozen of these shady places around now...

Other than seeking profits like any business, I have not seen any evidence that expat tax thailand is what you describe. On the contrary, I think they are trying to communicate accurate and helpful information. Some of that information points to some people needing to get a TIN and to file, and some of it points to no need to get a TIN and no need to file. Depending on the specifics of your case. There is no one size fits all with this stuff. Another example while they sell a get a TIN service they very openly explain that you can usually do that yourself. 
Keeping this objective, I think their service prices after the free short session teaser are high, so that's an incentive for people to try to do things themselves, and I also think it opens a space for a "discount" expat tax services (which I have yet to notice yet). Offering such specialized services in English which claims to be able to navigate both Thai and foreign tax systems is actually a type of thing that has pricing power. 

For example in my case assuming I will eventually need to file in Thailand. I expect the service fee if I get help to be higher than the tax owed. That sucks but taxes in general suck, so what are you gonna do? Some people say leave Thailand. For most people, that's extreme. 

38 minutes ago, redwood1 said:

 

There is no consensus by anyone on any tax matters, that has been proven very very clear from day one.....Even after 1,000s of pages of endless boring bla bla bla

 

Just interpret the rules how ever you like and go with that...

 

There is a LOT of consensus on many details ... and no consensus on some others. 

 

Some examples of consensus:

 

1.  For example the Canadian-Thai DTA states Canadian pensions and similar remunerations are only taxable in Canada (and not in Thailand).  This has been agreed with all tax advisors, who have gone a step further and also agreed such Canadian pension (and similar remunerations) are not to be included in a tax form. This is also consistent with Royal Decree-18.

 

2.  Also, per por.161/162, there is agreement (tax advisors and Thai RD)  that pre-1-Jan-2024 money in foreign bank accounts, if remitted to Thailand, is exempt Thai taxation, and not to be included in a Thai tax form.

 

3.  Also per Royal Decree 743 and RD Ministerial Instruction 427 those on an LTR-WP and LTR-WGC have their remitted foreign income tax exempt.  A forum member in a call to the Thai RD tax help line confirmed such income is not to be included in a Thai tax form.

 

Any who dispute the above, are going against both the Thai RD and against different Tax advisors.

 

I suspect there is also agreement in other country sourced income as well ...

 

There are of course, some areas where it is not so clear yet, but I believe with time there will be more clarification. 

 

To think thou that there is "no consensus by anyone on tax matters" is not universally correct in regards to Thai taxation.

 

On 3/11/2025 at 9:56 PM, NoDisplayName said:

 

This is still unclear.

 

"Cash in the bank" prior to 2024 is definitely exempt.  As to other forms of savings, CD's, brokerage accounts.........no guidance has been given.

 

We would hope an account balance or NAV on Dec 31, 2023 would be the valuation, but nobody knows yet. 

 

If cost basis for the sold/remitted funds is purchase price, some of the paid services are advising that any remittances are a percentage of exempt original capital and a percentage taxable capital gains.

 

But no case on this here forum of anyone paying tax on remitted stock sales.  Not yet.

What's a Compact Disc got to do with taxes?  Similarly what's a NAVigation got to do with it? Will people please stop using terms others can't understand?

On 3/12/2025 at 11:02 PM, NoDisplayName said:

 

Rouge office.  Banking statements are not required to obtain a TIN.

 

You have no assessable remittances, and all your Thai income has had tax withheld at source.  You don't have to enter any of those numbers on a tax filing, which would leave nothing but your name and TIN.

 

You 'probably' don't even need to obtain a TIN or file, but you could to calm your nerves and to apply for a rather substantial refund.

 

What is your agent charging for that service?

 

At this point, since your rouge office is being particularly snotty, I'd consider filing this year, AND late filings for the past two years for those refunds as well.

 

 

What's a ROUGE office, please?

20 minutes ago, thoengthaied said:

What's a ROUGE office, please?

ROGUE office

1 hour ago, oldcpu said:

 

There is a LOT of consensus on many details ... and no consensus on some others. 

 

Some examples of consensus:

 

1.  For example the Canadian-Thai DTA states Canadian pensions and similar remunerations are only taxable in Canada (and not in Thailand).  This has been agreed with all tax advisors, who have gone a step further and also agreed such Canadian pension (and similar remunerations) are not to be included in a tax form. This is also consistent with Royal Decree-18.

 

2.  Also, per por.161/162, there is agreement (tax advisors and Thai RD)  that pre-1-Jan-2024 money in foreign bank accounts, if remitted to Thailand, is exempt Thai taxation, and not to be included in a Thai tax form.

 

3.  Also per Royal Decree 743 and RD Ministerial Instruction 427 those on an LTR-WP and LTR-WGC have their remitted foreign income tax exempt.  A forum member in a call to the Thai RD tax help line confirmed such income is not to be included in a Thai tax form.

 

Any who dispute the above, are going against both the Thai RD and against different Tax advisors.

 

I suspect there is also agreement in other country sourced income as well ...

 

There are of course, some areas where it is not so clear yet, but I believe with time there will be more clarification. 

 

To think thou that there is "no consensus by anyone on tax matters" is not universally correct in regards to Thai taxation.

 

 

Ok I should have said SOME/ or MANY tax matters.....But I do stand by people need to interpret for them-self........And not eat up all the expensive $$$ nonsense from the  shady tax adviser services.. 

2 hours ago, redwood1 said:

 

Sir quit pumping/ pimping for these slimy, self serving, money grubbing, tax adviser services.......There must be at least be a dozen of these shady places around now...

well, if note what I write about them, it is the "freebies" that I emphasize,  I have asked some info from them which I received free, but basically they just send me emails whenever th RD or finance ministry put out anything on the taxes.  I realize that there are and are probably going to be even more as further taxation schemes to attack expats surface.  Unless some major change to benefits of the LTR, I am not concerned with taxes for the next 9 years.  In any case, just hope all the expats come out of these schemes without having to shell out any funds.

13 hours ago, atpeace said:

It is a combination of earning money and not spending all of it. .  Do this for a decade or two and you end up in most cases with a big sum.

If life was that simple and straightforward everyone would end up millionaire.

Good that recipe worked for you, however you do realize that unexpected events happen in most people's life achieving partly and often annihilating any long-term plan.

5 hours ago, thoengthaied said:

What's a ROUGE office, please?

 

An office at the back o' Bourke staffed by ladyboys.

13 hours ago, JimGant said:

Traditional IRAs and 401ks are certainly subject to US tax, per the saving clause found in all DTAs. So, all this argument about IRAs not being taxable by Thailand, per Por 162, is only a matter of interest, but certainly not one of tax savings -- since either Thailand or the US, or both, will collect your taxes (subject to credit relieve, of course).

 

Unless you've converted your pre-tax contribution traditional IRA to a tax-free withdrawal Roth.