Thailand Yet to Finalise Policy on Taxing Expats’ Overseas Income

[Jingthing]

2 minutes ago, Mr Meeseeks said:

 

I'm not confused at all. It seems to be you that is confused over the scope and definition of the Common Reporting Standard.

 

They have no ability of tracing foreign ATM transactions back to the foreign parent account nor does that fall within the scope of the CRS.

 

The CRS is to share account information i.e. balances of reportable accounts so they can see if taxable income is being hidden.

 

If you remit money into a Thai bank account then of course they can see the money coming in and if it is a significant amount, and you are a tax resident they may question the source of the funds as it may be taxable income.

 

I cannot really see this affecting any of us unless you are transferring in large sums from overseas into your bank account, you are a tax resident, and you get flagged accordingly if you haven't declared it on your tax return.

We're talking about different things and I'm finding your line of posting tedious. 

Wait and see how TRD treats such withdrawals.

If they include them, then the question will be about the specific source of the withdrawals (accessable or not).

Thailand will definitely be able to see those transactions.

No, they won't know whether the source is accessable or not.

Pretty much the same as wire transfers.

It's up to the tax resident to report accessable remittances.

[Espanol]

5 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

Apparently, "Generalissimo Francisco Franco is still dead."

 

 

Francisco Franco was an amateur, compared to the socialist dictator we are currently enduring in Spain.

 

 

[khunPer]

2 hours ago, Mr Meeseeks said:

ATM withdrawals are impossible to tax.

 

Also, I was informed by my Thai tax accountant that ATM withdrawals from foreign accounts are not considered remittance and thus not taxable.

"ATM Withdrawals and Payments

Expats often ask if withdrawing cash in Thailand from an overseas account or paying a third party, like school fees with a foreign credit card, counts as a remittance taxable in Thailand. The answer is yes. Both types of transactions are seen as remittances into Thailand and are taxable. Under the CRS, these transactions are automatically reported to the Revenue Department, making them aware of these financial activities."

Source link: https://www.expattaxthailand.com/how-crs-enables-thailands-tax-authorities-to-track-your-finances/

[Jingthing]

2 minutes ago, khunPer said:

"ATM Withdrawals and Payments

Expats often ask if withdrawing cash in Thailand from an overseas account or paying a third party, like school fees with a foreign credit card, counts as a remittance taxable in Thailand. The answer is yes. Both types of transactions are seen as remittances into Thailand and are taxable. Under the CRS, these transactions are automatically reported to the Revenue Department, making them aware of these financial activities."

Source link: https://www.expattaxthailand.com/how-crs-enables-thailands-tax-authorities-to-track-your-finances/

But that is incomplete.

If the withdraw was from a fund composed on non-accessable money, then it would not be a tax event to withdraw it in Thailand. But there would need to be records showing that in case of audit.

[Ben Zioner]

2 hours ago, Felton Jarvis said:

Benjamin Hart with Integrity Legal says Thai taxation will not likely be an issue for most expats. I trust his knowledge.

I don't.

[Jingthing]

4 minutes ago, Ben Zioner said:

I don't.

He does seem overly obsessed with bizarro world rants about stamp pimps.

[Ben Zioner]

1 hour ago, Bruce Aussie said:

I think the  sales tax they receive from us should be enough. 

Permanent residents and anyone working here should pay tax. But IMHO everyone else, including tourists should pay a "per day" tourist tax. 200 Baht a day would make sense I reckon. Would be so easy to collect too, pay when you leave or extend. And no DTA, no LTR, etc.. Isn't TRD rather dumb?

[anrcaccount]

19 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

23 minutes ago, khunPer said:

"ATM Withdrawals and Payments

Expats often ask if withdrawing cash in Thailand from an overseas account or paying a third party, like school fees with a foreign credit card, counts as a remittance taxable in Thailand. The answer is yes. Both types of transactions are seen as remittances into Thailand and are taxable. Under the CRS, these transactions are automatically reported to the Revenue Department, making them aware of these financial activities."

Source link: https://www.expattaxthailand.com/how-crs-enables-thailands-tax-authorities-to-track-your-finances/

But that is incomplete.

If the withdraw was from a fund composed on non-accessable money, then it would not be a tax event to withdraw it in Thailand. But there would need to be records showing that in case of audit.

 

It's more than incomplete, it's also incorrect, and deliberately misleading / non factual.

 

One of many examples of the dishonest marketing used by this firm, specifically designed to create FUD ( fear, uncertainty, doubt) in the minds of expats in order to drive them to use their  services. It's quite sickening really , IMO. 

Lets be clear:

 

The CRS only reports aggregate account balances and not individual transactions with a few specific exceptions ( types of income).  ATM withdrawals are not included, nor any transactions that pay to a third party , like 'paying school fees'.

 

So, no, the TRD are not 'aware of these financial activities'

 

Let's also be clear:

 

No significant tax has ever been paid on foreign remittances to Thailand.

No one has ever paid tax on a foreign ATM withdrawal or credit card transaction.

The law hasn't changed, the only official change is 2 internal interpretative directives, posted nearly 18 months ago. 

 

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, anrcaccount said:

 

It's more than incomplete, it's also incorrect, and deliberately misleading / non factual.

 

One of many examples of the dishonest marketing used by this firm, specifically designed to create FUD ( fear, uncertainty, doubt) in the minds of expats in order to drive them to use their  services. It's quite sickening really , IMO. 

Lets be clear:

 

The CRS only reports aggregate account balances and not individual transactions with a few specific exceptions ( types of income).  ATM withdrawals are not included, nor any transactions that pay to a third party , like 'paying school fees'.

 

So, no, the TRD are not 'aware of these financial activities'

 

Let's also be clear:

 

No significant tax has ever been paid on foreign remittances to Thailand.

No one has ever paid tax on a foreign ATM withdrawal or credit card transaction.

The law hasn't changed, the only official change is 2 internal interpretative directives, posted nearly 18 months ago. 

 

This has nothing to do with CRS.

It's up to tax residents to report accessable income whether the TRD knows about the sources or not.

It's easy to demonize firms trying to provide information.

It's up to us of course to filter the information and decide what actions to take or not to take as we're all adults.

[Mr Meeseeks]

27 minutes ago, khunPer said:

"ATM Withdrawals and Payments

Expats often ask if withdrawing cash in Thailand from an overseas account or paying a third party, like school fees with a foreign credit card, counts as a remittance taxable in Thailand. The answer is yes. Both types of transactions are seen as remittances into Thailand and are taxable. Under the CRS, these transactions are automatically reported to the Revenue Department, making them aware of these financial activities."

Source link: https://www.expattaxthailand.com/how-crs-enables-thailands-tax-authorities-to-track-your-finances/

 

The CRS states no such thing.

 

You can read the content of the actual CRS which is here: https://www.oecd.org/en/topics/tax-transparency-and-international-co-operation.html

 

[Mr Meeseeks]

3 minutes ago, anrcaccount said:

 

It's more than incomplete, it's also incorrect, and deliberately misleading / non factual.

 

One of many examples of the dishonest marketing used by this firm, specifically designed to create FUD ( fear, uncertainty, doubt) in the minds of expats in order to drive them to use their  services. It's quite sickening really , IMO. 

Lets be clear:

 

The CRS only reports aggregate account balances and not individual transactions with a few specific exceptions ( types of income).  ATM withdrawals are not included, nor any transactions that pay to a third party , like 'paying school fees'.

 

So, no, the TRD are not 'aware of these financial activities'

 

Let's also be clear:

 

No significant tax has ever been paid on foreign remittances to Thailand.

No one has ever paid tax on a foreign ATM withdrawal or credit card transaction.

The law hasn't changed, the only official change is 2 internal interpretative directives, posted nearly 18 months ago. 

 

 

Correct.

[redwood1]

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

We're talking about different things and I'm finding your line of posting tedious. 

Wait and see how TRD treats such withdrawals.

If they include them, then the question will be about the specific source of the withdrawals (accessable or not).

Thailand will definitely be able to see those transactions.

No, they won't know whether the source is accessable or not.

Pretty much the same as wire transfers.

It's up to the tax resident to report accessable remittances.

 

Have you filed?.....I very seriously doubt you have, or you have any plans to file....

 

Maybe you should wait till you file before you start telling people what they can or can not do which you seem to be doing pretty often these day.....It gets real tiring after a while....

 

[anrcaccount]

7 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

This has nothing to do with CRS.

 

CRS is just one of many "pieces of information'  used selectively ( misleading) by this firm to scare expats into using their services. 

 

7 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

It's up to tax residents to report accessable income whether the TRD knows about the sources or not.

 

This is why remittance taxation is completely flawed, and almost nowhere in the world uses it. It's wildly impractical.

 

It's unreasonable to expect self declarations to be accurate, when so many scenarios and exceptions / exemptions exist, and the official tax authority is mute, a complete absence of clarity.

 

Remember, 95%++ of foreign expats have never had anything to do with the TRD. If the TRD want that to change, they need to do more than release 2 internal directives and publish 1 infographic. 

 

 

7 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

It's easy to demonize firms trying to provide information.

It's up to us of course to filter the information and decide what actions to take or not to take as we're all adults.

 

'Just trying to provide information" ? Are you really that gullible?

 

This firm sprung up in October 2023, riding the coat tails of the media reporting on the internal POR/PAW directives, to see if they could make a business out if it. 

 

If they were 'just trying to provide information' , why weren't they doing it before then? 

 

Yes, filter the information very carefully. 

 

 

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, redwood1 said:

 

Have you filed?.....I very seriously doubt you have, or you have any plans to file....

 

Maybe you should wait till you file before you start telling people what they can or can not do which you seem to be doing pretty often these day.....It gets real tiring after a while....

 

Why would I file?

I remitted zero baht last year.

This year I will remit but it will be zero baht accessable income so again won't file.

I'll file when required. Duh.

[ronnie50]

12 minutes ago, anrcaccount said:

Remember, 95%++ of foreign expats have never had anything to do with the TRD. If the TRD want that to change, they need to do more than release 2 internal directives and publish 1 infographic. 

Persoanlly, I think the TRD infographic is quite clear and straightforward. Most of us here 180 days+ would not need to file or pay tax, as long as the remittances (and it seems to stick with remittances as the main funding, not global income) is from resources/funds we had nested in our home country's bank (or other countries' bank) prior to 1 Jan 2024. If you are business person who rents out condos or other profit making ventures in Thailand that's clear - you will/should be taxed (if you honestly report it). The infographic was published just last year. Unless they come out with something else, this seems clear enough (at least for me). This could also explain the blanc looks some are getting at the Thai tax offices (why are you here?)

[hereforgood]

I don't think this is ever going to happen and here's why. For them to make this run smoothly you have to have the revenue department working with the banks as well as immigration all three organizations will definitely need to work together. This is Thailand and I just do not see that happening. I may be wrong I've been wrong before but that's my opinion on this

[offset]

5 hours ago, khunPer said:

At the beginning of the change of the savings-taxation and demand for foreigners' taxation, we were told that details would come later.

 

Deadline is 31st March for 2024-tax year. Due to the official postings, tax-resident foreigners need to declare taxable income – i.e., anything earned after 1st January 2024 and transferred into Thailand, including ATM withdrawals on foreign cards – but can be credited already paid foreign income tax for those amounts that has already been taxed abroad and is covered by a DTA (Double Taxation Agreement). Bear in mind that DTAs are slightly different from country to country, so you need to check you own home country's DTA.

 

 

A had a meeting – actually two, see more below – with the local revenue office director, who insisted that foreign already taxed income – for example retirement pension – shall be registered in the tax return form. However, income tax covered by a DTA shall be credited. Easy to be done online with E-filing...

 

 

However, there seems to be a system-error. You can only mark "Overseas payers" if "Withholding tax" is 0.00. And if you place any amount in the "Withholding tax"-field, a Thai "Payer number for you" is needed. I've set my browser to translate the Thai characters in E-filling to English, which is why you see English in my screen dump.

 

A second meeting with Big Boss in revenue department unveiled that it was impossible to credit foreign paid tax. The staff tried with access to my E-filling profile, and even a call to "someone important" up in Bangkok didn't solve the problem. If you need to deduct foreign withheld tax in accordance with a DTA, you need to fill in a paper P.N.D.90 tax return form – which has to be the one in Thai language and you name and address in with Thai characters; perhaps your local tax department in the Aphor-office might do it for you. You need to attach proof of paid tax in English or preferably Thai language.

Now, your deductions are:

60,000 baht personal deduction

100,000 baht maximum deduction, taken as 50% of your income

190,000 baht if you are a 60 years or elder retiree

150,000 baht untaxed base

-----------

600,000 baht total; but can be little more if you are married and spouse no income, and have minor children with your spouse.

 

The below screen dump shows the deductions in my E-filing-attempt...

 

If you are 65 year or elder, and total taxable foreign transferred income is not more than around 600,000 baht, just fill in the tax return on E-filing and avoid any problems.

 

Thai income tax begins with 5% of the first taxable 150,000 baht, so even if you taxable income is a little more than the tax free base, it might be worth just paying a few baht instead of making a P.N.D.90-paper tax return form; especially if you need paid help from an accountant of tax service agent.

 

And remember that savings from before 1st January can be transferred free of tax. It might be a good idea to keep a home country tax office-statement of your savings by 31st December 2023.

 

 

I think you have got your sums wrong your figures for Thai tax relief is only 500,000bhat

People also need to know the tax relief in their own country is taxable in Thailand (in the UK it is £12570) 

In the UK it is possible to get some interest tax free that is also taxable in Thailand 

[khunPer]

17 minutes ago, offset said:

 

I think you have got your sums wrong your figures for Thai tax relief is only 500,000bhat

People also need to know the tax relief in their own country is taxable in Thailand (in the UK it is £12570) 

In the UK it is possible to get some interest tax free that is also taxable in Thailand 

Yes, thanks, that correct, it's 500,000 baht.

[BusyB]

10 hours ago, pomchop said:

Listen to the age old advice from thai gals:

 

why u worry too mutt?

 

That is precisely what we're all here to learn and this tax fiasco is just another lesson in the course book.

 

Keep smiling 555

 

[VBF]

4 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

Your advice is to do nothing until you know you have to, which is a valid opinion.

 

Other poster is proclaiming the law states that once you file, you MUST file every year thereafter, and that it appears on the TRD website.

 

Not same-same.

Not really advice, just my thought on the matter as it doesn't affect me anyway. I'm a sort of interested bystander 

[freedomnow]

Thailand Yet to Finalise Policy on Taxing Expats’ Overseas Income

 

 

Thailand Yet to FURTHER AMEND Final Policy on Taxing Expats’ Overseas Income

 

Thailand Yet to FURTHER AMEND AGAIN Policy on Taxing Expats’ Overseas Income

 

Thailand TO COMPLETELY REVERSE Policy on Taxing Expats’ Overseas Income

 

 

 

 

[JJ-Thailand]

16 hours ago, webfact said:

Feedback from various provinces highlights inconsistency in TRD office approaches

 

Inconsistency? It is a fu**ing mess.

[riclag]

17 hours ago, webfact said:

 

Despite ongoing debates, a significant number of expats remain reluctant to engage with the system, banking on double taxation treaties for protection

Yup thats me.Push to Shove , I’ll take the latter and wait for the dust to settle.

But 

 

Without mentioning names,  Nationality  or province. There are some who dive right in wanting to become the first civic minded falang to oblige the “tax stamp pimps”.

 

The civic minded are so enthusiastic to

File, they go beyond the pale

and translate the words from the Thai tax format to English.

End result they had enough deductions and escaped having to pay taxes .

 They fulfilled their world civic duty and filed , getting  a warm fuzzy feeling of satisfaction similar to changing the oil in your car yourself imop.

 

The story is based about one individual who was the first to file in their perspective 

province ( according to what the Thai tax office said to the individual ).

 

 

[offset]

10 minutes ago, riclag said:

Yup thats me.Push to Shove , I’ll take the latter and wait for the dust to settle.

But 

 

Without mentioning names,  Nationality  or province. There are some who dive right in wanting to become the first civic minded falang to oblige the “tax stamp pimps”.

 

The civic minded are so enthusiastic to

File, they go beyond the pale

and translate the words from the Thai tax format to English.

End result they had enough deductions and escaped having to pay taxes .

 They fulfilled their world civic duty and filed , getting  a warm fuzzy feeling of satisfaction similar to changing the oil in your car yourself imop.

 

The story is based about one individual who was the first to file in their perspective 

province ( according to what the Thai tax office said to the individual ).

 

 

 

Some people file for peace of mind and some will even get a tax rebate are you saying they are silly to file

[riclag]

1 minute ago, offset said:

 

Some people file for peace of mind and some will even get a tax rebate are you saying they are silly to file

Have you read most of the consensus 

on this thread?

[rattlesnake]

I am almost certain it is never going to happen. If it does, I will gladly pay the money just to see how they pull it off.

[offset]

22 minutes ago, riclag said:

Have you read most of the consensus 

on this thread?

Yes but I was only quoting 1 person and I am waiting for him to answer

[Robert Tyrrell]

Good morning,  

No double Taxation approval from my country !! THAILAND DOUBLE TAXATION OR DTA IS ILLEGAL AND CRIMINAL THAILAND!!

[riclag]

10 hours ago, Felton Jarvis said:

Benjamin Hart with Integrity Legal says Thai taxation will not likely be an issue for most expats. I trust his knowledge.

I’ve followed his YT channel!

He talks about countries that want to

ignore current tax treaties & the OECD and many topics related Thailand!

It is my opinion he is very skeptical of the OECD countries wanting to push their agenda on global taxation!

 

That being said , He’s opinionated ,well versed and knowledgeable .

 

 

 

[ukrules]

10 hours ago, Mr Meeseeks said:

 

I don't see how as the Common Reporting Standards (CRS) do not report on transactions, only on accounts and balances. 

People don't seem to understand that CRS is useless to the Thais unless they enact global taxation.

It's a tool for use by the west to keep tabs on your foreign accounts.

Most of us are non resident 'back home' and as Thailand only taxes remitted income for 180+ day residents then CRS does literally nothing useful for them at all - they can already see remittances should they request information from Thai bank accounts.

So CRS for Thailand only makes sense in the scenario where taxation on global income is in place, even if it's not remitted.

We know some people who work in the Revenue Department want this - but they're not in a position to do it - only government can do that and it would be a contentious issue - many would leave. Not just foreigners - I would expect a mass exodus of wealthy Thais as well.