Mr Ed Balls - the Schools Secretary (whatever that position is) - today announced that students on suspension / exclusion orders must stay in their homes and work.

What if the parents are working? How to control a kid that the school authorities cannot control?

So there will be fines every time the kid is caught outside his house - this could be ten, twenty times in one day.

Excerpt from todays Guardian :-

Introduced under the Education and Inspection Act 2006, the powers reinforce the government's "respect" agenda and reflect its determination to improve classroom discipline.

Announcing the changes, the schools secretary, Ed Balls, said: "It is important that parents take a central role when a child is excluded - making sure they are at home working, rather than treating the exclusion as a holiday or an excuse to wander the streets."

Parents will face a £50 fixed penalty every time an excluded pupil is found in a public place without justification. If the fine is not paid within 42 days, parents could face prosecution and a fine of up to £1,000.

The regulations also require parents to attend "reintegration interviews" with a headteacher where they will discuss strategies for improving the child's behaviour. Pupils will have to be given full-time schooling after the first five days of any exclusion; previous rules required this only after 15 days.

Mr Balls also urged more schools to begin teaching children about emotional wellbeing, social interaction and how to be graceful losers.

I have never been a 'graceful loser' and my emotional wellbeing has been fine. My social interaction on the rugby field has always been positive - same in the bar afterwards.

What are these prissy civil servants in the Education Ministry doing to the UK?

I went to an all-boys school, where the masters came back from WWII with a determination to educate and make the country a far better place. I received a fine education, which included the occasional clip round the ear, belting with a gym-shoe, regular detentions and a degree in Civil Engineering. Also the army cadet corps, the first XV in rugby and a few seasons with Wasps.

Did me no harm. But I could never "lose gracefully"

I think its good that parents are being slapped with fines for failing to control wayward kids and frankly I think they should take this even further.

But fully agree with you on the losing gracefully part. I definitely doesn't need to be taught, all one has to do is watch England play any sport over the course of a decade and accepting defeat becomes second nature!

I think its good that parents are being slapped with fines for failing to control wayward kids and frankly I think they should take this even further.

Do you mean..... invest in decent public education and career prospects to give real aspirations to the bottom end of society?

Never! Never I tell you. Thrash the ungrateful scum, bring back the workhouse, throw their useless parents in prison, exterminate the poor, exterminate the poor.....

They are evil..

seig heil, sieg heil...

Hey Robski, maybe a smilie or two at the end of your post would have helped.

Re the op, education in gereral is balls! How can the grades be increasing every single year? Are A level students getting brighter? Of course what this causes is a distrust of educational standards across the board. As an employer I don't rate someone who's cv says 4 A levels all at grade 'A'! That was impossible to achieve when I did my A levels! Now kids, who can barely scratch their name in the dirt with a stick, tell you they have 4 A levels, ha!

Further to the op, and addding to the above, the education system has lost a lot of respect because of these sorts of things, it's a vicious circle. The parents (not all!) don't care, the kids don't care - their kids in the future won't care. The government is in a 'no-win' situation.

I think that the people being targeted are from the lower end of the social spectrum, two reasons;

Gerald and Gemma who go to schools paid for by their parents never take days off and if they did they certainly wouldn't hang around a shopping centre with common people.

British politicions like to flex their right wing credentials now and then, it takes the public eye off the bigger picture using the lower classes as the whipping horse for societies problems.

Parents will face a £50 fixed penalty every time an excluded pupil is found in a public place without justification. If the fine is not paid within 42 days, parents could face prosecution and a fine of up to £1,000.

How would a poor family pay these fines?

It's impossible and the final outcome would mean further exclusion and alienation for those on the bottom rung of the ladder.

Disingenious.... or is it?

I'm all for parents having to accept responsibility for their off-spring. My parents did, I do and so do most people I know, whichever country and culture they are in.

I believe that this is also a problem of one-parent families; whether the single girl who has a kid or two to get a council flat (was a UK system) or a couple married and divorced too young. And as the previous poster has pointed out - how will such a person find the money to pay the fines?

I do not have a solution for the present education system - either the UK system or the Thai system. But I have seen serious shortcomings in both. I had a good education, but that was partly due to starting Grammar School just before the end of WWII, just as RA Butler's education act of 1944 came in. The men who came back from the war were both inspired and inspirational. The UK schooling was undoubtedly the best in the world at that time.

What does it need now to get the same level of dedication in the teachers, the same level of eagerness in the pupils?

We had no TV - well, our family did 'coz my father came out of the RAF and started a TV manufacturer - but the radio gave us Paul Temple, Dick Barton and other such heroes to follow. Sports were encouraged at all levels - I watched the '48 Olympics at Wembley - once with my father, a couple of times going on my own. Chered athletes such as Zatopek and Fanny Blankers-Coen. E McDonald Bailey was a local hero.

I'd better shut up now, because I'm drifting far off my own topic!!!

You were drifting off your topic, but it was very interesting.

I believe that this is also a problem of one-parent families; whether the single girl who has a kid or two to get a council flat (was a UK system) or a couple married and divorced too young.

I think when we look at a subject like this we have to look beyond the rhetoric of short term policy announcements and newspaper headlines.

Britain is a two tier society, many people in it are socially and economically excluded and have been for many generations.

What these people need are prospects not punishments.

I believe that this is also a problem of one-parent families; whether the single girl who has a kid or two to get a council flat (was a UK system) or a couple married and divorced too young.

I think when we look at a subject like this we have to look beyond the rhetoric of short term policy announcements and newspaper headlines.

Britain is a two tier society, many people in it are socially and economically excluded and have been for many generations.

What these people need are prospects not punishments.

Agreed, whole-heartedly. First my parents, and then me, have done just that.

My grandparents were servants in large houses at the end of the 1800s - my parents pushed their way up and I have done the same. Now my grown-up daughter is definitely middle-class.

But there was encouragement of a sort. My parents came to maturity after the First World War. Struggled through the depression and only made good after WWII. I saw the results of WWII and was determined to make a better life (bombed out in 1941, living six months here, six months there).

I do not see such determination nowadays, nor do I see how this could be triggered.

Much of the immigrant population of the sixties and seventies had it, but neither their children nor the new immigrants seem to do so, nor a vast proportion of the indiginous population.

Is it just that I am getting old and saying "Fings ain't what they used ter be"; is it a new ethos in society that curtails small ambitions or is it just plain failure to instil such get-ahead values in the up and coming generations? Should they all be 'gracious losers'?

I remember some years ago in America, New Jersey I think, schools having similar problems. It was traced back to rewarding single mothers for having more children. Every time they had a child, they were effectively giving themselves a raise in "salary". Anyhow, the government cut off additional stipends for over 3 children and miraculously the situation began to slowly improve. They seemed to reach the conclusion that when bad social trends are rewarded, you will get more of it.

But this isn't all of it - or even a major part.

As Robski was saying, there is a large underclass that has been screwed for generations - held down and blocked from progress.

After some major upheaval, such as the two world wars, the mechanism for maintaining the 'Us' and 'Them' strata was not working properly - so there were windows of opportunity.

In the present day, where all the political pundits seem to be pushing for more egalitarian treatment of minorities, women, so on, there should be a heavy emphasis on improving society, but the education that I see in schools now is not one half of the 'go for it' encouragement that I had as a kid.

These 'little monsters' that are served with exclusion orders and suspensions need to be helped and integrated into society. The current attitude will not do that, will only create the gangsters of the next generation.

I think 'fings definately ain't what vey used ter be'.

I think as well as genuine career and social opportunities, people need a sense of self worth.

I've been reading about the lack of virtue in the modern world, not just the victorian dad stiff upper lip type ,

but values that form the basis of cultures throughout history,

it would seem they have been considered redundant in the modern age with visible consequences.

But this isn't all of it - or even a major part.

As Robski was saying, there is a large underclass that has been screwed for generations - held down and blocked from progress.

After some major upheaval, such as the two world wars, the mechanism for maintaining the 'Us' and 'Them' strata was not working properly - so there were windows of opportunity.

In the present day, where all the political pundits seem to be pushing for more egalitarian treatment of minorities, women, so on, there should be a heavy emphasis on improving society, but the education that I see in schools now is not one half of the 'go for it' encouragement that I had as a kid.

These 'little monsters' that are served with exclusion orders and suspensions need to be helped and integrated into society. The current attitude will not do that, will only create the gangsters of the next generation.

Well, I don't know as much about the UK as I do the US, except that it's a class based society. Only judging from what I 've observed, those class strata seem to be self imposed, rather than rigid or imposed by government. Is not pulic education (public in the US sense), available to all at no cost? Are not students who excell academically, regardless of class, granted admission to higher level institutions of learning? Are not scholarships, grants and loans available to those who are academically successful, but finacially challanged? What are the real impediments that thwart talented and academically succedful students from rising as high as their abilities can carry them?

There is free education for all, some of it is good, mostly it underfunded. Some students do excel and go on to higher education.

If you have money and you want the best for your child you would pay for private schooling. There is generally a vast difference between the quality of education and the resultant career prospects.

In many ways there are regional diferences too, Central, Southern and Home (London) counties are more affluent and have opportunities for productive careers and social inclusion for virtually all that want it,

the North, Northeast, Northwest and Southwest counties, as well as many city areas are considerably less affluent and offer far fewer opportunites for productive careers and social inclusion.

These differences are not just studies in sociology and statistics books, they are real, they are the enviroments in which people live, form their opinions and find their direction. For better or worse.

Here is something from the book I've been reading. Regarding the lack of 'reference' for want of a better word;

You can't just invent a good ritual through reasoning about symbolism.

You need tradition within which the symbols are embedded, and you need to invoke bodily feelings that have some appropriate associations.

Then you need a community to endorse and practice it over time. To the extent that a community has many rituals that cohere across the three levels, (closeness, hierachy and divinity) people in the community are likely to feel themselves connected to the community and it's traditions.

If the community also offers guidance on how to live and what is of value, then people are unlikely to wonder about the question of purpose within life. Meaning and purpose simply emerge from the coherence, and people can get on with the business of living.

But conflict, paralysis and anomie are likely when a community fails to provide coherence, or worse, when it's practices contradict people's gut feelings or their shared mythology and ideology.

I agree totally with everything you say Robski, but jeez it wears me down repeating it. I think that's where the bad guys are going to win, you get this constant right wing propaganda from all forms of media and the chickens keep rushing off to vote for Colonel Sanders. I've got to the stage where I just can't be bothered any more.

Here is something from the book I've been reading. Regarding the lack of 'reference' for want of a better word;

You can't just invent a good ritual through reasoning about symbolism.

You need tradition within which the symbols are embedded, and you need to invoke bodily feelings that have some appropriate associations.

Then you need a community to endorse and practice it over time. To the extent that a community has many rituals that cohere across the three levels, (closeness, hierachy and divinity) people in the community are likely to feel themselves connected to the community and it's traditions.

If the community also offers guidance on how to live and what is of value, then people are unlikely to wonder about the question of purpose within life. Meaning and purpose simply emerge from the coherence, and people can get on with the business of living.

But conflict, paralysis and anomie are likely when a community fails to provide coherence, or worse, when it's practices contradict people's gut feelings or their shared mythology and ideology.

I think that's all true, but the world is undergoing rapid and accelerating change. Change that's not good for everyone but is good for many peoples who have never had the opprtunities you and I have had and may have taken for granted. What's happening now is certainly disturbing for those who cannot adapt to new realities, but it can also bring opportunities and personal growth if one approaches it on that basis. Remember, a lot of that "coherence" we seem to miss, was all bullshit anyway.

But conflict, paralysis and anomie are likely when a community fails to provide coherence, or worse, when it's practices contradict people's gut feelings or their shared mythology and ideology.

Are you talking about the gut feelings that every teacher must have when faced with an undisciplined child.

Are you talking about the gut feelings that every copper walking the street must feel when they see an unruly gang chastising a granny or smashing up a bus stop.

Hang the PC brigade from the nearest lamp post, let the teachers practice some chastisement (no cruelty, obviously) let Constable Fred deliver the odd clip around the ears to those whose parents either don't know or don't care about how to raise children.

I didn't grow up in a tough environment, it was quite easy going in fact, but I learned how to respect at a very early age (mainly from witnessing others who found the lesson a little harder to learn)

Sorry .... that was a little rant..... a rantette if you like.

Back to one part of the OP..... the losing gracefully part.

I think I know where the chap is coming from.

When we had sports days, there was always a 1st, 2nd, 3rd for every event, any other place you were a loser..... that's how it should be.

The last time I went to a sports day at a school in the UK was not that long ago (long story, but it involves me, an old school-friend, and her kids that went to the same school that we attended many years prior)....... they were handing out awards for coming twelfth out of a field of twelve.... what sort of crap is that... it only promotes mediocrity...... in everything attempted.

The bloke in question has got half way out of breaking the PC mould...... the whole hog is not teaching people how to lose gracefully.... it's being able to say "sorry son, you're <deleted> at this, try something else"

Please bring those days back before the kid that comes twelfth out of a field of ten throws a hissy fit for not getting a special award.

But conflict, paralysis and anomie are likely when a community fails to provide coherence, or worse, when it's practices contradict people's gut feelings or their shared mythology and ideology.

Are you talking about the gut feelings that every teacher must have when faced with an undisciplined child.

Are you talking about the gut feelings that every copper walking the street must feel when they see an unruly gang chastising a granny or smashing up a bus stop.

Hang the PC brigade from the nearest lamp post, let the teachers practice some chastisement (no cruelty, obviously) let Constable Fred deliver the odd clip around the ears to those whose parents either don't know or don't care about how to raise children.

No I'm not talking about any of those things, neither am I talking about being politically correct. But I am talking about a society where respect is valued.

Those people, teachers and policemen are also part of the community, but the community is lacking in values.

They are left to clear up or deal with the problems from a society in which values and 'coherence' that are apparantly overated.

Do you think punishment is the ONLY answer?

Don't jump to conclusions and try thinking outside the box or at least try reading the post properly.

I think 'fings definately ain't what vey used ter be'.

I think as well as genuine career and social opportunities, people need a sense of self worth.

I've been reading about the lack of virtue in the modern world, not just the victorian dad stiff upper lip type ,

but values that form the basis of cultures throughout history,

it would seem they have been considered redundant in the modern age with visible consequences.

This sounds almost exactly like one of those press releases that comes out every month or so from the Thai Ministry Of Culture. They continue to fail to see that what they view as coherence and cohesion (often a whole pack of lies widely believed) is really a set of shackles for Thai youth. All the worst elements in this society have huge vested interests in remaining "old school". Maybe it's the same where you come from too.

You also want to jump to conclusions instead of actually thinking about what I've said.

Moral values, virtues and social cohesion are the basis of civilized society, I'm not talking about a conservative utopia, I'm talking about all civilization.

There is no utopian ideal, but we live in a modern age where problems should and could be dealt with using reasoning to find a long term solution,

rather than knee jerk reactions.

I'm far from being pro authoritarian or even conservative and the OP is about what I consider to be a rather disingenious solution to a social problem.

I'm just trying to look at the bigger picture.

You are only judging by your own standards and experience so I'm not trying to argue with you about a matter of perception.

I'm just saying;

People need prospects rather than punishments

If society was more inclusive and structured we wouldn't have so many social problems

Bottom line is; it's all about money.

Do you think punishment is the ONLY answer?

Don't jump to conclusions and try thinking outside the box or at least try reading the post properly.

Of course not and don't make assumptions in future. Did you manage to extrapolate my entire feelings on this subject based solely on my comments on one aspect of it, well done.

Additional.

I really can't stand that phrase 'thinking outside the box' ....... it is normally used as a substitute for 'no, I don't know either' ..... a better idea is to make sure that the box contents are working correctly first.

Additional.

I really can't stand that phrase 'thinking outside the box' ....... it is normally used as a substitute for 'no, I don't know either' ..... a better idea is to make sure that the box contents are working correctly first.

It comes from the puzzle using 9 dots

* * *

* * *

* * *

The instructions are to join up all 9 dots using 4 straight lines without taking your pen off the paper or retracing any of the lines. If you know it, fine, if you don't have a go and I'll post again tomorrow.

Edit - sorry I can't post he nine dots!?! They are supposed to be arranged into an equal distance square.

*----------*----------*

*----------*----------*

*----------*----------*

more like this...

I really can't stand that phrase 'thinking outside the box' ....... it is normally used as a substitute for 'no, I don't know either'

Really!?

I've just manage to extrapolate your entire feelings on this subject based solely on your comment on one aspect of it.

I've got better things to do.

I've just manage to extrapolate your entire feelings on this subject based solely on your comment on one aspect of it.

Mimicry is usually the last refuge.

I've got better things to do.

Please, go do them then.

You are just an angry young man aren't you Rob.

Most of you that know me, know that I'm sort of the last of an old(er) fashioned generation in many aspects, especially relating to social cohesion. ie: the current trend of regulation every breath we take doesn't agree with me.

I haven't read the whole thread, so 4give me if this has already been mentioned:

Following on from fairly recent developments that teachers aren't even allowed to help a child up after an accidental fall, which followed on from teachers not being allowed to give even a disciplinarian smack,

In the news (UK) just today:

Teachers should not tick pupils off.

Telling a student off may "make the student feel bad".

They should also encourage students to speak among themselves during class, not sit in silence and pay attention.

(so-and-so) is a "highly educated" education therapist and has aided the (some university of london) in a two year long research study.

In other news, King's College Cambridge, arguably the most respected education institution in Britain has been found to have the highest percentage of gay students. One female student even complained about this officialy.

The same college has, again arguably, produced a report following a two year study that Jessica Alba has the sexiest "sway" of the hips. This is the most significant study to come out of a once respected college that today can boast only of this study and the fact that it houses the largest male homosexual population of Britain.

Yeah, I don't think I need to elaborate my take on the topic. I like HUmphrey bear, so I felt I should contribute something.

BTW, all this is true.

You also want to jump to conclusions instead of actually thinking about what I've said.

Moral values, virtues and social cohesion are the basis of civilized society, I'm not talking about a conservative utopia, I'm talking about all civilization.

There is no utopian ideal, but we live in a modern age where problems should and could be dealt with using reasoning to find a long term solution,

rather than knee jerk reactions.

I'm far from being pro authoritarian or even conservative and the OP is about what I consider to be a rather disingenious solution to a social problem.

I'm just trying to look at the bigger picture.

You are only judging by your own standards and experience so I'm not trying to argue with you about a matter of perception.

I'm just saying;

People need prospects rather than punishments

If society was more inclusive and structured we wouldn't have so many social problems

Bottom line is; it's all about money.

It sounds like you can't decide if you want to be an anarchist or on the dole in a nanny society.

You should have been able to see this coming for decades now. You and your countrymen have allowed yourselves to be divided into self imposed classes. Didn't matter which government you chose, from which side of the political spectrum, you seemed to like identifying yourselves by your class. Indeed, were proud of "your working class roots/credentials".

When you should have been fighting for equal opportunity for all, huge portions of your population were content to get cheap government subsidised housing and a check every week. Let me tell you something, a culture that centers around sitting in a pub is not cohesive. Now, your government IS becoming inclusive, which you say you want, but that's not the way it looks from here. Now those in the lowest strata of society who never sought to improve themselves or their society will have no advantage over the huge influx of immigrants that WILL shape what the future structure of your society looks like. You want the structure and cohesion, but what are you willing to do to get it? Will you participate in shaping the change, or just bitch about it?

I've just manage to extrapolate your entire feelings on this subject based solely on your comment on one aspect of it.

Mimicry is usually the last refuge.

I've got better things to do.

Please, go do them then.

You are just an angry young man aren't you Rob.

The last refuge of what Thaddeus? I'm surprised at you, your normally capable of more intelligent posts than this.

Angry young man? Is that supposed to be an insult or is it a touch of resentment?

You also want to jump to conclusions instead of actually thinking about what I've said.

Moral values, virtues and social cohesion are the basis of civilized society, I'm not talking about a conservative utopia, I'm talking about all civilization.

There is no utopian ideal, but we live in a modern age where problems should and could be dealt with using reasoning to find a long term solution,

rather than knee jerk reactions.

I'm far from being pro authoritarian or even conservative and the OP is about what I consider to be a rather disingenious solution to a social problem.

I'm just trying to look at the bigger picture.

You are only judging by your own standards and experience so I'm not trying to argue with you about a matter of perception.

I'm just saying;

People need prospects rather than punishments

If society was more inclusive and structured we wouldn't have so many social problems

Bottom line is; it's all about money.

It sounds like you can't decide if you want to be an anarchist or on the dole in a nanny society.

You should have been able to see this coming for decades now. You and your countrymen have allowed yourselves to be divided into self imposed classes. Didn't matter which government you chose, from which side of the political spectrum, you seemed to like identifying yourselves by your class. Indeed, were proud of "your working class roots/credentials".

When you should have been fighting for equal opportunity for all, huge portions of your population were content to get cheap government subsidised housing and a check every week. Let me tell you something, a culture that centers around sitting in a pub is not cohesive. Now, your government IS becoming inclusive, which you say you want, but that's not the way it looks from here. Now those in the lowest strata of society who never sought to improve themselves or their society will have no advantage over the huge influx of immigrants that WILL shape what the future structure of your society looks like. You want the structure and cohesion, but what are you willing to do to get it? Will you participate in shaping the change, or just bitch about it?

Not a bad post there lannebirth,

I wonder though if you have ever been to the UK, it's a very nice country overall, but it does obviously have areas that need improvement.

I am an Anarchist and I'm not asking for a nanny state, I work hard, I'm self employed.

Anarchism and social structure are not mutually exclusive.

I've never drawn the dole nor am I advocating that for anyone in society.

I'm saying (again) that people need prospects not punishments.

I can see that you are more liberal, that people should be responsible for their own actions and I'm not disagreeing with that, but I do think that people need tradition and structure (yes even such as being proud of working class roots)in order to understand their responsibilies, and that is something that is missing in many parts of society.