No Sails

[brooklynbridge]

Does anybody know what happened to "The Sails" condominium project on Na Jomtien? There is a letter in Pattaya Mail stating that construction has halted. The building was purported to have been 90% sold. Will construction resume? Will investors see their money?

[jbaldwin]

I believe the the developer has only said that the stop on work is because of "construction problems" but has given no details of the nature of the problem. I have been told that the "construction problem" is that the contractor will do no further work until they have been paid but I have no way of confirming whether this is true

[expatgaz]

Struggling to sell units 100% true, don't listen to the Agents who still say things are selling.View Talay are on the bring of going the same way.

EPG.

[Basil B]

I know they said it was 90% sold, but then again this is Thailand.

But maybe it is a case of;

No Sales = No Sails

(sorry about the pun but I just could not resist that one ).

BB

[Pushit]

Does anybody know what happened to "The Sails" condominium project on Na Jomtien? There is a letter in Pattaya Mail stating that construction has halted. The building was purported to have been 90% sold. Will construction resume? Will investors see their money?

"Caveat Emptor" Buyer Beware!! Never ever finance a Thai property developers' operations by purchasing non existing estate you will Not get what you will be obliged to pay for.

[Basil B]

To be serious.

As I understand it with these projects normally the developer has to get some backers and deposits in before the banks will start to lend on these projects.

With the happenings in the banking industry of the last few weeks due to the American financial institutes giving mortgages to American who just could not afford them has put the whole banking world into a spin.

It was only last year that a Pattay Real Estate Manager was telling me how easy it was to get a loan from Northern Rock to buy a condo in Pattaya, yesterday and today Northern Rock has had it's investors queuing to get all their money out.

All banks at this time are re-evaluating their position and this is going to hit the building industry hard, expect to see many more projects canceled.

BB

[Rimmer]

I think I am right in saying that this is the second time work has stopped on this project and the sales office at the front closed up. This time however the cranes have been taken down and shipped out and the workers have left, leaving an empty deserted shell up to about 6 or 8 floors.

Sign of things to come maybe.

[basjke]

Grande Asset plans B6.7bn Pattaya project

KANANA KATHARANGSIPORN

After selling his shares in the listed property firm Grande Asset Development, former major shareholder Pongphan Sampawakoop has revived his property venture with a backdoor listing through Sun Tech Group and is preparing to launch a development worth 6.7 billion baht in Pattaya.

He said White Sand Beach would be located on a 56-rai site, comprising a hotel worth 1.6 billion baht and residential projects worth 5.14 billion baht, which would be launched for sale in mid-September.

The residential component involves 320 units of The Spinnaker high-rise condominium with prices starting at 85,000 per square metre and 250 units of The Island Lagoon low-rise condo starting at 60,000 baht per sq m.

A hotel chain to operate the hotel part with 350 rooms will be finalised within a month. Hilton, Movenpick and Raffles were candidates, said Mr Pongphan, chairman of Apex Development Plc (APX).

Last week APX became the new name for Sun Tech Group, a listed steel manufacturing firm owned by industrialist Sawasdi Horrungruang and just exiting its rehabilitation plan.

''Sun Tech is a clean company so we acquired it and changed its business direction to property development and hotels. This is an easy way for us to raise funds,'' said Mr Pongphan who has 30 years' experience in real estate.

The company is also in talks with financial supporters for White Sand Beach and is choosing a construction package offered by the Chinese government.

Since mid-last year Mr Pongphan had sold one-third of his shares in Grande Asset to the US-based investment group Lehman Brothers but they had conflicts about management and financial policy.

As a result, construction of ongoing projects including The Trendy and The Regent had been delayed and construction of The Sails in Pattaya, located near White Sand Beach, was frozen due to an end to financial support.

Mr Pongphan admitted that the construction freeze of the over-40-storey The Sails, which was 90% sold since last year, might harm the company's image. However, he said only The Sails had problems in construction and that no other projects developed under his management faced such difficulties.

Currently, Mr Pongphan and his family hold 45% of APX while Mr Sawasdi still has 20%.

Earlier, Sun Tech Group reported to the Stock Exchange of Thailand that its shareholders on July 31 approved a capital increase to 13 billion baht from 2.14 billion by issuing 1,085,500,064 new shares at 10-baht par value.

Source: skyscraper city Aug 27, 2007

Isn't this amazing news,come on lets all buy a condo in white sands beach.This is thailand on its best again.

[DonTron]

All banks at this time are re-evaluating their position and this is going to hit the building industry hard, expect to see many more projects canceled

I am not sure Raimon Land would agree with you with their 2 new projects. Neither do I think Ananya or Ocean 1 Tower would agree. (I hope not, cause I invested there )

As long as Pattaya is within few hours reach of China and India (2.4 billion people) then I feel pretty safe investing here in sin city and I don’t expect Pattayas property marked to ever crash. (actually I silently hope for a crash to we can buy some cheap sea front condos )

[naka]

Buying off the plan is illegal in China. There, the developer must complete

the entire project and have it inspected/licensed before they can make a single sale.

Pity the laws are not the same here

Naka.

[torrenova]

All banks at this time are re-evaluating their position and this is going to hit the building industry hard, expect to see many more projects canceled

I am not sure Raimon Land would agree with you with their 2 new projects. Neither do I think Ananya or Ocean 1 Tower would agree. (I hope not, cause I invested there )

As long as Pattaya is within few hours reach of China and India (2.4 billion people) then I feel pretty safe investing here in sin city and I don’t expect Pattayas property marked to ever crash. (actually I silently hope for a crash to we can buy some cheap sea front condos )

Which year is the "excuse" clause that allows the developers of Ocean 1 to give you your deposits back with no interest ? How much will they have made just lending your cash out on the overnight markets for all that time ? Do you still reckon they are going to build 91 floors next to Jomtien Beach with that tiny access road etc.

[Rimmer]

Is that right they changed the name from the Sails to the SNAILS on account of the stop start slow progress

[think_too_mut]

As long as Pattaya is within few hours reach of China and India (2.4 billion people) then I feel pretty safe investing here in sin city and I don’t expect Pattayas property marked to ever crash.

Yes, it's easy now.

If only China and India were there back in 1997, there would have been no crash.

[brooklynbridge]

As long as Pattaya is within few hours reach of China and India (2.4 billion people) then I feel pretty safe investing here in sin city and I don't expect Pattayas property marked to ever crash.

Yes, it's easy now.

If only China and India were there back in 1997, there would have been no crash.

I'm not sure how much proximity to China and India is going to help Pattaya's property market. The Chinese don't think Pattaya is very clean. For quality of life and stability, Singapore is a better option; value for money, Malaysia; hanky-panky, well, Macao, Shanghai, and many other Chinese cities have brothels galore. As for the Indians, there is plenty of everything including lovely beaches along the Indian Coast. Thailand has too many problems right now to attract investment from other Asian countries.

Edited September 22, 2007 by brooklynbridge

[Humphrey Bear]

Buying off the plan is illegal in China. There, the developer must complete

the entire project and have it inspected/licensed before they can make a single sale.

Pity the laws are not the same here

Naka.

That was not the case in HK when I was working there (nineties).

There was a lot of building of commercial high-rises where the developer pre-let office and shop space to finance his building and we had to complete on time. One day late for moving-in and there was hel_l to pay,

When the HK Gov't put all the colony's asstes into the airport it sent a lot of developers to the wall.

Of course, being Hong Kong, more people came along, picked up the pieces and made a fortune.

But all we built in China proper was the Beijing Radisson, which gives me no knowledge of the rest of the construction market.

[think_too_mut]

Sails.

When I remember all the glossies and all the billboards telling us where we should live if we esteem ourselves.

Sails stopped? Bankrupt? People lost their money?

My heart is bleeding.

[JR Texas]

Sails.

When I remember all the glossies and all the billboards telling us where we should live if we esteem ourselves.

Sails stopped? Bankrupt? People lost their money?

My heart is bleeding.

With the possible exception of the top floor, ocean-front coffin-condos, the market has been going downhill for several years now. Hype has kept a lot of it afloat....but the forces bringing it down have not gone away and have grown. When the market crash is officially recognized and shops close down, I will shed no tears for the real estate hounds that have ruined Pattaya-Jomtien. Too bad as it used to be a fairly nice retirement haven.......no more. The ship is sinking.

[Manchester]

The ship is sinking.

Same as Texas then

[Goldbug]

Investors should not be alarmed at the current slow progress with The Sails in Jomtien. Lehman Bros has taken the project from Grande Asset and provided all the funds needed to complete the work by the end of next year. A world class, reputable project management team is now in charge of the project and they are currently selecting a highly respected general contractor to complete the work under a new accelerated project schedule. Expect to see the cranes back on site next month and construction proceeding urgently.

[farangfool]

Investors should not be alarmed at the current slow progress with The Sails in Jomtien. Lehman Bros has taken the project from Grande Asset and provided all the funds needed to complete the work by the end of next year. A world class, reputable project management team is now in charge of the project and they are currently selecting a highly respected general contractor to complete the work under a new accelerated project schedule. Expect to see the cranes back on site next month and construction proceeding urgently.

Sounds like an ad from the company. Could you identify the source of your information and also state your own interest? How do you define world class, reputable etc. in connection with the previous arrangements. Do you imply that they were not reputable?

Selecting a new contractor and "cranes back on site next month" signify not slow progress but standstill, right? So are you using misleading language on purpose?

[Jai Dee]

Just a word of warning to those participating in this discussion... please post in accordance with the forum rules.

That means no slanderous our libellious remarks, as well as no advertising or spam.

I just thought I'd remind members of this now... before it's too late.

[suiging]

No matter what we may think about what has gone on before. If we care about Patters, this project must succeed. It has been hyped all over the world and would be a PR disaster for a great many people( including non-investors ) if it went tits up.

Bar owners, restaurateurs, are all hoping for better days. Projects which put Patters in the international media are a necessary evil.

[farangfool]

No matter what we may think about what has gone on before. If we care about Patters, this project must succeed. It has been hyped all over the world and would be a PR disaster for a great many people( including non-investors ) if it went tits up.

Bar owners, restaurateurs, are all hoping for better days. Projects which put Patters in the international media are a necessary evil.

I do not see the logic of your post. Are you implying that the bar owners depend on success of this real estate project for their livelihood. How do you make up that connection? As far as I can see the bars and hotels depend on tourists. They are hurt by increasing prices which are a result of, among other reasons, real estate speculations. I have seen several places getting torn down. People might also get tired of walking along construction sites and the increasing traffic hassle which is a result of unplanned development and NOT of the tourists in the first place.

The PR disaster will hurt speculators for sure, I do not pity them for 1 second. Pattaya had or has a prett bad image. I did not see the local people suffer from it too much in the past. What I see that lots of Thai people have simply no more space in this town and are getting pushed out. Please, dont make appeals with such cheap 'we all sit in one boat' slogans. We do not and you wont be the captain.

You are trying to project your worries for your portfolio on others. This sale/sail wont work as well. Almost 6 pm time for a 25 baht rice with chicken sweet/sour. My thai restaurant is not even close to the non-sales, sorry sails.

[suiging]

I was trying to say that a project with great international exposure was goog for Patters in the long run. Deserted construction sites with more "Thai construction company rips off clients" press coverage, does nothing for local business on any level. You alluded to that in your reply.

[farangfool]

I was trying to say that a project with great international exposure was goog for Patters in the long run. Deserted construction sites with more "Thai construction company rips off clients" press coverage, does nothing for local business on any level. You alluded to that in your reply.

Which local business are you talking of? I remember quite some green spots on beach road with some bars closeby. These are all gone. So the real estate business benefits the real estate sales persons and the developers plus advertizing. I think we all agree on that. That the upcountr lost her job, no problem she can go next door. The process is repeating itself, just look around.

I amazed by hypocrisy in Pattaya. You have a local tv channel propagizing the "new pattaya" just to promote "the old pattaya" 5 seconds later in the ad and info-advertizing sections. Then next the owner goes on to put his action to his mouth and rounds up beach road "workers" (no problem for him, those ladies do not advertize or buy condos.....).

I doubt that Pattaya needs more condos at 80.000 baht per sqm or more. And the failed construction site here and there did not stop Pattaya after 1997. Please provide evidence. Most people in Pattaya just see how big money is rolling into town and pushing people aside. The small shops go, malls come in. Remember 2nd road?

And do these condos have an impact on the general population? Yes, they do. The water shortages are nothing new but the condos can buy while the others, the small Thai guys cant. Thai neighborhoods dont get street paving or services while the municipality is going ahead with the new sites. No surprise, the services go where the money is.

The idea that bar owners will gain from a new condo is either naive or you are simply trying to fool us. The bars live because tourism and not long term residence of the upper classes (maybe 2-3 places do, no need for names here).

So what remains? Conflicting interests and maybe a full disaster at the Sails is good. It might stop other projects, hurt some flippers and cool the market.

[OneMikeInBangkok]

New Project scheduled to start Janyuary 2008 The Spinnaker Condominiums - Part of The White Sand Beach Residential Complex.

Location right next door to the Sails and a similar nautical design. They gonna have egg on their face if The Sails is left flapping in the wind.

[lotus eater]

Investors should not be alarmed at the current slow progress with The Sails in Jomtien. Lehman Bros has taken the project from Grande Asset and provided all the funds needed to complete the work by the end of next year. A world class, reputable project management team is now in charge of the project and they are currently selecting a highly respected general contractor to complete the work under a new accelerated project schedule. Expect to see the cranes back on site next month and construction proceeding urgently.

This does rather read like a posting by the developer. However a search on the internet does confirm that a subsidiary company of Lehman Bros has bought Grande Asset. There is no doubting the reputation and financial clout of Lehman Bros. The other companies involved are not named above, so one cannot verify their worth.

Perhaps someone in Jomtien will report next month if the construction etc has indeed restarted, and thus prove/disprove the above.

I was trying to say that a project with great international exposure was goog for Patters in the long run. Deserted construction sites with more "Thai construction company rips off clients" press coverage, does nothing for local business on any level. You alluded to that in your reply.

I agree. It's obvious if Pattaya moves upscale in property prices, everyone with property or business in Pattaya (including of course those in the property business) benefits from the 'trickle down effect'. Many such beneficiaries will be local, not necessarily rich, thais. If someone does not see the economics as obvious, he only has to look at the consequences in other towns which develop similarly.

[suiging]

The thing with Patters is that it will NEVER be the sleepy backwater it once was. There is no way back from development, the best we can hope for is that when these things start, they deliver what they promise to the buyers whoever they may be. In addition, the place is in desperate need of funds to boost the infra-structure as just too many folk are here and the majority are here for the duration, again sad reality.

You need water, sanitation and all the other basics of life to enjoy your twenty five baht bowl of noodles. Income gained from that bowl simply doesn't cut it any more. I have a house way out in the sticks because I choose not to live in the major development zone. However, the city, Na Jomtien and a great slice of the coast will develop whether we like it or not. Better such projects are finished, than leave holes in the ground with squatter camps of bored workers waiting for the next one.

[farangfool]

The question is not being ignorant of economics. It is easy to look simply at the so-called and often referred to "larger picture." Problem is, there is no such thing. It is a rhetoric construct. The trickle down effects and their impact are a theory that does not work. What I see in Pattaya is developers pushing out locals. It trickles down on them big time. Stating the obvious, increasing real estates prices is simplistic. The cost of life for the average person will further increase and the lack of adequate services is already just too apparent. The wish list of not to do things of the municipality is clear testimony. It is an alliance of developers with local politicians and that sets the standards. To call this development is one way of putting it. Developing the coast line is another expression to the same effect. The developers challenge even those limited zoning regulations that do exist (see VT 7 and the other projects).

I do agree that the average income in Pattaya will increase over the years, the population, however, wont be the same. So there is no need to worry or pity a project that goes down the drains. If the sails are not built it wont hurt the local people. It will hurt flippers and other speculators and will provide new takeover opportunities. Remember the larger picture? - it is called market correction.

Once a large scale project goes south, it might serve as a reminder to over zealous investors and perhaps buy us some time until the pending legal actions come to fruition. The destruction of capital in such ventures and bubbles is nothing new, like stock market bubbles are not either. Perhaps we will get more balanced development out of it like in Europe were building regulations, zoning etc have provided for liveable cities in some countries. If not, Pattaya will end up like BKK and whether that is the "new" high class Pattaya I do doubt.

There can't be an agreement for sure. Those who have their vested interests in this building "boom" (?) will make any claim to heat it up further. Is simply a question of different positioning in relation to these activities. People without stakes are free to talk about social and enviromental costs - although others might not like it. So dont lecture me, I have my degrees and they are surely good ones.

[ThaiBob]

All banks at this time are re-evaluating their position and this is going to hit the building industry hard, expect to see many more projects canceled

I am not sure Raimon Land would agree with you with their 2 new projects. Neither do I think Ananya or Ocean 1 Tower would agree. (I hope not, cause I invested there )

As long as Pattaya is within few hours reach of China and India (2.4 billion people) then I feel pretty safe investing here in sin city and I don’t expect Pattayas property marked to ever crash. (actually I silently hope for a crash to we can buy some cheap sea front condos )

Which year is the "excuse" clause that allows the developers of Ocean 1 to give you your deposits back with no interest ? How much will they have made just lending your cash out on the overnight markets for all that time ? Do you still reckon they are going to build 91 floors next to Jomtien Beach with that tiny access road etc.

Ocean Tower 1 got final approval.

http://www.pattayacitynews.net/news_01_10_50_2.htm