Very good point.

Just getting wise to his trolling. How about 15 and 50.

My friend,

as for the first part, Trolls are best left under bridges, where like Sirens, they only have power over those that respond and I think I will hazard a guess that the second part was rhetorical?

Moss

Well, anyway....

I have one question for those who are following this. He was watching (and paying for) videos of children being sexually abused (the one little girl was tied up and blindfolded) for research purposes. Did he report these videos to the authorities as any right thinking person would do?

I haven't really followed this case, although I am aware of it, but ,' tied up and blindfolded', what do reckon, room for reasonable doubt! Is it true that he only got 10 Months and will likely be out in 5!!!?

Moss

I will hazard a guess that the second part was rhetorical?

Is it true that he only got 10 Months and will likely be out in 5!!!?

Moss

Yes and most unfortunately yes.

suiging>> If you where paying attention the only thing UG did was point out that not all sexual encounters below 18 is abuse. In fact often it's very much the opposite.

If the young woman I had a crush on would have allowed me to when I was the age of 12 I wouldn't have held it against her. But some of you would have put her in jail.

I guess you also have a problem with animals having sex directly after reaching sexual maturity.

Defining mental maturity is so much harder. Heck, some of you should be allowed to have sex even now if I could define it to a standard...

Without resorting to silly gibes, I think I was paying attention at nasty little hooks being left on a topic that has become something " General " would be proud off.

Take the time to see the wood for the trees, and all may not be what it seems.

I've never actually accessed pornography on the 'net. Years ago one of my ex wives was partial to it and we used to watch a blue movie occasionally, but lets face it, the scripts are monotonous and the acting poor so eventually we tired of it. In those days and in that country it was readily available over the counter, and it seems to be the same with 'net porn. What I'm referring to here is sexual activity between consenting adults and anything else would result in vigorous prosecution by the police so it was hard to come by. I certainly never saw any or was ever offered any.

So my point is (finally, they say)... it must take a considerable amount of effort to find it. Accidental viewing is virtually impossible. If you don't want to take the consequences of your actions, don't look for this stuff is my advice.

I find this fencing offensive

The trivialization of child exploitation is beyond the people on here I have come to respect.

Grow up.

You can hide behind clever words. but trying to rationalize abuse needs to stop

I don't see much "trivialization" or "rationalization" going on here. As far as I am concerned, for once we were having had a serious, intelligent discussion about the whole issue of child abuse without calling anyone names until - of course - good ole' Robski joined the conversation.

Despite his jeers, I have no sexual interest in children, but I freely admit to finding girls in their late teens to be absolutely lovely. As far as I am concerned, it is part of the burden of being a heterosexual.

As I said, I do like to play Devil's Advocate on controversial issues, but I also have real questions about what we are told over and over by the media and religious groups. Questions about things we have talked about here like one women admitting that her first boyfriend was 6 years older than her and would be considered a pedophile by some of the posters on this thread, even though she loved him dearly.

I wonder why there is a double standard as far as women who have sex with children as opposed to men - adult women. Many are not prosecuted and the ones that are receive very little jail time. However, many boys who are only a year or two older than their girlfriends are prosecuted for having sex with them and end up with ruined lives.

As far as I'm concerned, intelligent questions need to be answered, not ignored, and we are coming up with some intelligent questions here.

Slightly digressing from the main topic, but relevant to the last few posts.

A man dating a women young enough to be his daughter or even grandaughter may raise a few eyebrows and snide remarks, but seeing an older woman with a MUCH younger man i believe will still shock.

How about 44 and 29?

I also think that any person male or female who has a sexual relationship with a person albeit of consenting age but less than half their own age has personal issues that need addressing. I am specifically talking about men in their late fifties and sixties who use men and/or women in their twenties.

If you are talking about sex-workers and clients, I guess it is a matter of what turns you on. Personally, I would choose the most attractive lady that would have me and hope for the best. They can and do turn clients down if they desire to.

When I go to the Duke's Steak House, I don't ask for an old, tough, piece of steak because the taste buds aren't so good anymore, I go for the young, tender stuff because it is so much easier to chew.

The Thais have a couple of exprssions for old(er) men who chase after young girls they call them snakeheads and use the phrase "old bulls like new grass"

CB

I personally think that anyone who willingly and intentionally has a sexual relationship with any child below the age of consent should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

child ? ur getting ur words mixed up and unintentionally makes it misleading. all children are below the age of consent.

you are correct and it was unintentionally misleading - I should have written it as "I personally thing that anyone who willingly and intentionally has a sexual relationship with anyone under the ager of consent should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law"

unless you think 15 or 16 year olds are still children... I prefer a more promising term like "young adult" ... or at least teenager, or in this case the generic "person".

It is irrelevant whether I think 15 and 16 year olds are still children or if you prefer to call them "young adult". Under the law of the land having a sexual relationship with any person under the age of consent is illegal. The law has different codes depending on the actutual age of the person and also the reletive ages of the two. This means the law views and treats two "young adults" say for example female 15 and male 17 differently from a female 16 and male 55. It also takes the point of view that a person of 6 and an adult of 40 is totally unacceptable. There have been cases tried and prosecuted where one was a very young child (correction - person below the age of consent) and an older boy about the actual age of consent.

I repeat my comment from an earlier post "I personally thing that anyone who willingly and intentionally has a sexual relationship with anyone under the ager of consent should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law"

I also accept that it is legal for older men to have sexual relationships with very young women who are legally consenting but I don't have to agree with the practice. I also refer back to my previous post where I wrote that I can accept a relationship between an older man and a younger woman where they are in a mutually loving and caring relationship. I know and am friends with some very good men who have remarkably young wives. The men are financially secure and care for their young wife but the wife is also deeply in love and caring for the husbands. If it works for them then I am not in a position to criticise it. That is a very different proposition to a "rent wife" available almost anywhere alcohol is served. Yes she can reject the offer, but if she needs the money to pay room rent/eat/send back to the parents or if she has rejected too many that month and coming under pressure from the boss lady then that is not a freely given consent. It is also illegal in Thailand and btw the age of consent for a bar worker is not the same as the age of consent for a girl.

I think I will stop my involvement in this conversation from this point - I can see that it will become a discussion about "sex workers" and that is of course not an allowable topic on Thai Visa.

CB

It is irrelevant whether I think 15 and 16 year olds are still children or if you prefer to call them "young adult". Under the law of the land having a sexual relationship with any person under the age of consent is illegal. The law has different codes depending on the actutual age of the person and also the reletive ages of the two. This means the law views and treats two "young adults" say for example female 15 and male 17 differently from a female 16 and male 55. It also takes the point of view that a person of 6 and an adult of 40 is totally unacceptable. There have been cases tried and prosecuted where one was a very young child (correction - person below the age of consent) and an older boy about the actual age of consent.

This seems a quite uniformly accepted view.

I also accept that it is legal for older men to have sexual relationships with very young women who are legally consenting but I don't have to agree with the practice.

In most cases, it's simply taking advantage of economic disparities. Not much point trying to discuss this as we all know the course the discussion will take.

That is a very different proposition to a "rent wife" available almost anywhere alcohol is served. Yes she can reject the offer, but if she needs the money to pay room rent/eat/send back to the parents or if she has rejected too many that month and coming under pressure from the boss lady then that is not a freely given consent.

Agree totally. If this was sex he or she wanted, nobody would be paying.

...

Ephebophilic relationships are against the law in many countries and jurisdictions depending on the location's age of consent legislation, which typically asserts that a person below a certain age is not legally capable of consenting to a sexual act. In the US, for example, the adult in such a relationship may be subject to charges of statutory rape, regardless of whether the younger partner agrees to - or even initiates - the sexual activity.

Reasons given for this legal distinction include:

Some adolescents are unable to understand the physical, emotional, and social consequences of sexual activity. According to the August 2006 issue of Scientific American, the neurological development of late adolescents is not yet complete, leading to deficits in their higher cognitive functions including judgment, attention, and response to crisis situations. However, late adolescence also includes people over 18, since neurological development is still not complete at this age.

Adult sexual relations with adolescents can be an abuse of power, using psychological coercion.

Sexual relations with adolescents can lead to pregnancy and parenthood, for which adolescents may not be prepared emotionally and/or financially.

Relationships between adults and adolescents that do not include sexual activity are generally legal, assuming no other laws regarding child welfare are violated. For example, a romantic relationship with an adolescent below the age of consent is generally legal, especially when the adolescent's age is above the age at which their parents could consent to marriage. In other jurisdictions, this may be illegal.

That's quite gently worded, too ...

Look at statistics for pregnancy as a significant cause of death for girls in poor countries, amongst the numerous other ill effects of sexual activity in adolescence. In "richer" countries, it's often linked with family breakdown & psychological instabilty.

What is it in some people that wants to damage the normal processes of growing up ?

Well, anyway....

I have one question for those who are following this. He was watching (and paying for) videos of children being sexually abused (the one little girl was tied up and blindfolded) for research purposes. Did he report these videos to the authorities as any right thinking person would do?

I haven't been following, i have to say. These things make me feel a bit sick, so tend not to follow in any depth. (although of course if I were to see/know of something that required me taking action, then i would)

BUT, regarding him not reporting to the authorities...in addition, two things i wonder about. One: if he was doing research, who was it for? Was he personally requested, or is he saying its some kind of personal project (i am guessing the latter is the case). Either way, you think he would have some paperwork/notes etc on the subject. Two: personally, if I were to embark on research on a such a serious and delicate subject as child abuse, i would get in touch with an organisation such as childline and ask for advice. I would at least log my intentions with the police, to ensure they are informed about what i am doing and why, and that if I find something that requires reporting, i will do so.

The way he went about his "research" just doesnt make sense imo.

BUT, regarding him not reporting to the authorities...in addition, two things i wonder about. One: if he was doing research, who was it for? Was he personally requested, or is he saying its some kind of personal project (i am guessing the latter is the case). Either way, you think he would have some paperwork/notes etc on the subject. Two: personally, if I were to embark on research on a such a serious and delicate subject as child abuse, i would get in touch with an organisation such as childline and ask for advice. I would at least log my intentions with the police, to ensure they are informed about what i am doing and why, and that if I find something that requires reporting, i will do so.

The way he went about his "research" just doesnt make sense imo.

I am not sure how he was found (but good to know he was; perhaps in that fairly recent big operation ? ) but it seems more than clear that this was no "research". His writer colleague's court evidence just did not support that possibility.

It seems quite certain he's not in the best of mental health and best kept out of the way of kids and the internet.

I really don't know what is the best way to deal with such people; in my view they are f***ed up in the way kleptomanics (for example) are, but their actions affect others far more severely. Obviously, these people need to be

kept under strict observation. I don't know if treatment can help .

There is more than one instance I can recall where you have claimed to be knowledgable on an issue or author,

and when pressed the only source turned out to be, not study or informed opinion, but your own predjudices.

Why don't you produce such a post, instead of just imagining it out of thin air?

Robski's got a bad habit of taking threads into a tailspin, at the expense of someone else... and in his words "as a little pop for my own amusement" ...

and then got the cheek to accuse other of baiting,

I also think that any person male or female who has a sexual relationship with a person albeit of consenting age but less than half their own age has personal issues that need addressing. I am specifically talking about men in their late fifties and sixties who use men and/or women in their twenties.

If you are talking about sex-workers and clients, I guess it is a matter of what turns you on. Personally, I would choose the most attractive lady that would have me and hope for the best. They can and do turn clients down if they desire to.

When I go to the Duke's Steak House, I don't ask for an old, tough, piece of steak because the taste buds aren't so good anymore, I go for the young, tender stuff because it is so much easier to chew.

The Thais have a couple of exprssions for old(er) men who chase after young girls they call them snakeheads and use the phrase "old bulls like new grass"

CB

I dont think there is anything snakey about UG, for good or bad he is just too upfront, positive and honest about it.

hi UG

this thread has been very interesting. I had decided to pull out of the discussion because I am concerned it will descend into a flame war about Old Men Young Women. I am not sure if you took my comments as being a criticism of you or had any inference that I thought you are a pedophile or pederast. Nothing of the sort was intended. I think in the world of reality there are many young women of legal age willing to consent to sex with any man irrespective of age,with the money to pay for it. I think this is a huge difference though to adults having sex with young children as I know you will agree.

One thing I have been thinking about is your comments re older women and young males ie less than the legal age for consent. I can understand your position and it is is many ways a strong fantasy for many men. The Mrs Robinson syndrome. I think that the point I am concerned about is where is the dividing line between a young mans adult response (physical and psychological) and a young child who is doing what he is told. I think in the cases of a physically and psychologically mature young man who is on the cusp of becoming legal there is some scope for him being able to deal with the situation. If nothing else he would be a schoolyard hero to his friends and envy of all around him. However if he was a psychologically and physically immature young adult or child then the law has to be there to protect him.

In the cases of adult men having sex with girls or boys I think the issue is much less fantasy and much more physical and mental abuse. The reality is that many children have had severe trauma as a result of the physical penetration of an adult penis into a physically undeveloped rectum or vagina. The mental trauma that these children endure is not something that can be dismissed as "a victimless crime".

My other comment is that this thread has been derailed by a personal battle between you and Robski. I think that Robski has very serious concerns about child abuse and anyone he perceives as condoning it will become a target. I have met you and know you fairly well. I know that you do enjoy posting contentious comments but I think this is a very serious discussion that if it is to continue must be done of very clear guidelines of keeping personal abuse out of the thread.

Robski I think you make many very insightfull posts but I think that this personality conflict between you and UG is clouding your judgement. To be blunt I think that unless you have evidence that can be substantiated then you should be very careful of making any inference about others. In the case of pedophilia it is such an abhorent crime to most people that merely mentioning it will cause substantional damage to the persons credibility and reputation. UG is well known in Chiang Mai - he does not make secret who he is nor what he does for a living. I think you need to be very careful about potentially damaging his life in this town. On the other hand if you do have any evidence that anyone, irrespective of who they are is involved in pedophilia I urge you to contact your local police force for it to be investigated.

I am not a moderator and make no claims towards it. I think that a subject of this importance should be allowed to continue but it must be in overwatch now and if anyone crosses any lines it will be closed.

CB

Robski I think you make many very insightfull posts but I think that this personality conflict between you and UG is clouding your judgement. To be blunt I think that unless you have evidence that can be substantiated then you should be very careful of making any inference about others. CB

It's a thin line and he takes great pleasure in tiptoeing along it,

I don't think I have to be careful about making inferences as I have pointed out he he makes all the inferences by himself,

and there is nothing intelligent about his reply to critisism.

I'm not trying to justify myself, I don't have to nor am I trying to defend the indefensible.

QUOTE(Ulysses G. @ 2007-09-16 19:08:20)

What I wonder is, who is responsible when a () child has these kinds of desires for older men and ends up getting poked in the fanny? Should the guy who does it go to jail for life and become a despised outcast from society?

QUOTE(Ulysses G. @ 2007-09-16 20:40:34)

Actually, I am mostly in agreement with you when it comes to very young children - under the age of puberty - but when it comes to teenagers, things get a lot more complicated.

QUOTE(Ulysses G. @ 2007-09-16 21:00:10)

I have a problem with laws that can ruin someone's whole life for giving in to natural sexual urges that hurt no one and both parties agree to.

QUOTE(Ulysses G. @ 2007-09-17 08:51:48)

Who cares if society condones it, or not?

That is love as far as I am concerned and none of society's business.

QUOTE(Ulysses G. @ 2007-09-17 12:15:52)

I go for the young, tender stuff because it is so much easier to chew.

Enough said.

I was trying to think of a way of addressing the way this thread has been going also CB.. however I was hoping it would pitter out on its own.

I understand the things said on this thread can cause heated discussion, but can we please keep it relevant, rather than any deliberate bating and personal attacks against other member(s).

I would also like to say that if a person takes on a role of 'devils advocate' for arguments sake, i agree that can be useful for considering other sides of the picture. However, if one were playing the role for provocations sake, it only serves as a lack of respect for the subject matter and the people involved in discussing it.

I believe if taking on this role one must still carefully consider what their point is and why they are making it. I am not suggesting that comments have been made purely for provocations sake. ..but at times there seems to have been a tongue in cheek playful attitude that imo seems inappropriate for the comments it relates to.

I suppose possibly some of us take the subject of child abuse more serious than others, that we cannot have a sense of humour about it. As this is such a delicate topic I think it is important that one should still remember to post with a certain degree of diplomacy and consideration for others, and out of respect for the subject matter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_conse...n_Asia#Thailand

Hmmmmmm.....

I think you guys are all wet (pun intended). I agree with CB; seeing 68 yr old wizened age-spotted farang with a little girl is more than a little off-putting.

But back to the TOPIC. Yeah, the topic.

I don't ever go to porno sites. When I got my 1st laptop, decades ago, I made the mistake, once. Had so many pop-ups, spam and cr_p that I resolved to never again.

I really do hate to sound like a fuzzy-minded liberal/libertarian, but why is this guy being sent to prison, at state expense? Yeah, he downloaded and watched sh_t, that he really shouldn't have. He broke the law. Agreed. And I guess one can make the arguement (tenuous at best) that downloading and viewing these reprehensible images supports, foments and perpetuates violent and predatory behavior against innocents.

I don't buy it.

I say find the guy who MADE that video, and put him in a pillory stock, and let every victim of child sexual abuse come forward, and abuse him....pull his fingernails out with pliers, blow-torch his nether regions, etc. Oh, but NO, we can't do that, we're too civilized, now. So let us flail about, and find other people to blame....you watched, so you support, so you are the new guilty one.

This whole case reminds me of the famous McMartin Nursery School case in the US years ago. A witch-hunt.

Just my 2 satangs worth....

I have to admit, I am bugged by the age of consent concept.

I understand its legal value, but I don't buy it because it's artificial and seems arbitrary. We all mature in the same season but at different times.

I like the way when fruit knows it is ripe because it simply falls off the tree, why cant we have a single, precise and unique moment like that for humans ?

I have to admit, I am bugged by the age of consent concept.

I understand its legal value, but I don't buy it because it's artificial and seems arbitrary. We all mature in the same season but at different times.

That is correct we do mature at different rates. Different people from different racial backgrounds mature at different rates. I have friends back in Australia who have 13 year old daughters who physically look like they are 18 but emotionally aren't. It scares the parents who all say "girls did not look like that when I was the same age. I guess I am hoping that by protecting the majority we also care for the minority, some of whom are ahead of the pack and others left behind.

I like the way when fruit knows it is ripe because it simply falls off the tree, why cant we have a single, precise and unique moment like that for humans ?/quote]

Nice analogy but most fruit is removed from the tree before it is ripe and placed onto the market early. It is then artificially ripened or genetically modify to mature early but consistently.

My second point to your fruit analogy is that sometimes an unforseen event comes along and causes a lot of windfalls. These moulder and are disposed of as recycled refuse.

CB

CrowBoy's right when he says Ulysses G is high profile in Chiang Mai, he can be found any day sitting behind his desk in an area readily available to the public. I'm sure that if he had anything to hide in his personal life he wouldn't be broadcasting it on a public forum, particularly one filled with people with their heads firmly in the sand, determined to ignore the fact that the vast majority of middle aged men who come to Thailand do so for legal sexual activity with younger women.

What is it about this that drives people into a frenzy? I'm 15 years older than my wife, who happens to be 44, but never mind that, it still puts me in the same category as other abusive scumbags like Mick Jagger and Rupert Murdoch.

Or is this alright? Are younger Western women better qualified to make a decision to marry an older, wealthier man? Some sort of reverse racism here? Our little brown sisters must be protected from the nasty, horny old western men?

Unfortunately the afore mentioned sisters have been getting married to older men for centuries in their own society, and they personally can't see what's wrong with.

Listen up people, I've lived or spent time in some of the worlds more serious brothel towns, including Angeles City in the Philippines and I would like nothing better to see all those beautiful young women go home, start college and go out with men their own age. But it's not going to happen, their only escape is to marry one of the punters. The problem isn't with the girls or their customers, it's the western economic policies that keep those countries poor; and nothings gonna be done about that for a loooong time.

Thanks for the good words guys, and you are right, I am not a stupid person. If I had the slightest interest in abusing children, I would never mention anything to do with the subject, ANYWHERE, but I would never hurt a child, my sex partners are all of legal age and I have done nothing wrong and I feel that I can discuss whatever I want honestly.

Actually, I live in a hotel with 24 hour surveillance videos so one could look back and see all of my sex partners over a long period of time and it would be difficult to find one under 25. That means I'm OK, even under Crowboy's rules!

Robski is a mudslinger and just grasping for straws and doesn't care what he does to another person's reputation as long as it suits his ends. Look at every one of his posts. He accuses me of a long list of silly things - too many to answer one by one -and never bothers to show any proof at all. Where are all the posts proving how ill-read I am for example? He has claimed that I wrote them over and over again.

The truth is that I shouldn't have revealed the fact that he sent me childish PMs in another thread about stalkers, which is what set him off. He was completely ignoring this thread until then.

It really is too bad that you can't have a serious discussion here without people of such ilk interfering.

Actually, I live in a hotel with 24 hour surveillance videos so one could look back and see all of my sex partners over a long period of time and it would be difficult to find one under 25. That means I'm OK, even under Crowboy's rules!

I am not the arbiter of morals or good taste. I have my own code of conduct that works for me. I think that as a responsible adult I am capable of making the decisions needed to conduct my life accordingly.

Throughout this discussion I have made use of "I my personal view I believe/think that ........." and "the law says" The first is exactly that, my personal opinion. It doesn't mean it is the same as everyone else. It doesn't make my opinion superior to anyone else it is simply what I believe to be correct accoding to my experience and beliefs.

Where I have written "the law is .............." that is probably less accurate. I am not a lawer nor profess any deep understanding of the law. Laws change between countries and even within those countries. What may be legal in one is not in another. We may agree or disagree about a law but choosing to ignore it does not make it disappear from the statute books. There are many laws that appear to be out of date or not in accordance to commonly held beliefs but until they are either removed or superceded they are still a law and have penalties for breaking them.

The rules and laws we were discussing were pertaining to a mature (age wise at least) man in the UK who had in his possession a number of files with ILLEGAL sexual activity involving children. It is not a borderline case of a young man having sex with a girlfriend who is under the age of consent. It is a clear violation of the LAW and for most people their sense of personal morals. To the majority of people it is a reprehensible crime against a small child. It is not about a boy who has sexual stimulation when seeing a woman or touching her breast it is about a man who is looking at these images. As far as I am aware there has been nothing to imply he was involved in the manufacture of the images nor that he has ever had a physical sexual relationship with a child. It has always been about the images.

The conversation has speared away, as it is want to do into a discussion about older men ie well beyond the age of consent and women either below or around the age. Age of consent is not the same for males as for females, it is not the same in different countries, nor within different racial groups. The age of consent here in Thailand differs if the girl and boy are both Thai or if one (normally the boy) is a farung.

In my personal view it is the responsibilty of all others to make their own decisions. I left Australia for many reasons, one of which was the persistent tendency of the government to remove the onus of responsibilty from people plus the abrogation of the right of responsibility by the same adults. If I as an adult wish to smoke or drink alcohol it is my right to do so. If I wish to drink and then drive home it is not my right because I have a diminished level of awareness and could kill or injure others. The government has stepped in and now says I am NOT allowed to walk into my local bar and get totally wasted or even mildly drunk. The reason being is that I may injure myself or others. The bar and the bar staff are now obliged to prevent me from getting drunk or even mildly intoxicated. If I object to that I can be banned from the bar without the right of appeal and I can be charged by the police for my determination to have a drink in a public bar.

This to my thinking is a foolish law aimed at the lowest common denominator but irrespective of my belief it is still the law and has serious consequences. However in the case of having sex with a woman who is under the age of consent it could be argued and has by some members as being a stupid law but if you are willing to take the risk for the pleasure of her body be very aware of the attendant risk of going to jail for the offence.

In my little world which is just me - I do not believe it is right for a grown man to have a sexual relationship with a woman under the age of consent irrespective whether she is willing or not, irrespective if she is being paid or not, irrespective of the duration of the relationship or not.

Any man who wishes to have a sexual relationship with a young woman older than the age of consent is certainly permitted by the law to do so. If it involves payment then there are additional complications depending on the rules of prostitution. However within those boundaries he is allowed to do it, what remains is if it is right to do it, and that is purely personal.

I know we are not allowed to discuss prostituion on this forum. When I had my bar in Samuii I made my own rule that NO female worker either paid or frelance was allowed to be there unless I had in my possession a photocopy of her ID card which showed she was older than 26 years of age. Each photocopy had the date of birth clearly highlighted and were kept in my office files in case they were needed. The reason for this was my personal view that any girl younger than that was not capable of dealing with it. There were any number of bars on the island where they could work but not in mine. I had enough moral problems with having working bar girls as it was, irrespective that prostitution is illegal in the kingdom of Thailand. The fact that it is openly available and the law "appears" to be ignored does not make it legal. Whether it is acceptable is purely a personal decision that each of us has the right to decide. I make no moral high stance nor do I believe it is the right of anyone else to do so.

I do hope this topic can continue because I am interested in the views and opinions of other members of Bedlam. I do however ask that we all behave in a civil manner and avoid personal abuse.

CB

Actually, I live in a hotel with 24 hour surveillance videos so one could look back and see all of my sex partners over a long period of time and it would be difficult to find one under 25. That means I'm OK, even under Crowboy's rules!

I am not the arbiter of morals or good taste.

Crowboy, I was just joshing you about the "going with a girl under half your age means you have issues" statement you made earlier in the thread, but no harm meant and none taken. It is always better to express how you really feel.

I think everyone should promise to avoid metaphors in this thread.

Time of emotional maturity & readiness obviously will vary between individuals so it would seem wise for social attitudes & laws to err on the side of caution. Some situations appear definitely wrong to a majority of people, but as certain factors such as age, relative strength/other power vary, there may be less consensus. I tend to think most people have an instinctive idea of what's OK and what's not, and some need to be kept in check by others' disapproval and, of course, laws.

And I guess one can make the arguement (tenuous at best) that downloading and viewing these reprehensible images supports, foments and perpetuates violent and predatory behavior against innocents.

I don't buy it.

Why not ? The images reportedly showed kids being sexually abused & tortured by adults. He must have paid for them, or supported the sites by visiting them. It was reported that one of the little girls was tracked down and removed from harm and I think we could be quite certain the UK police did their best to find the people making & selling the stuff.

There's a story in Australian papers today which is creating some discusion. The "ring leader" would seem to be a rather disturbed kid; one has to wonder what's going on in his home life.

Boy, 6, accused of sex abuse

Bridie Smith | September 19, 2007

THE Education Department has investigated claims a six-year-old student ran a "sex club" at an eastern suburban primary school, involving up to up to half a dozen grade 1 students.

One mother said her son, also six, was asked to perform a sex act, and that the alleged perpetrator also exposed his genitals to students.

Following an investigation, the department has admitted that the student exposed students to sexual conversations and proposed activities, but denied the existence of a "sex club". The alleged perpetrator received counselling.

The mother has been unable to make a police report because the law states sexual assault by a child under 10 cannot be prosecuted.

"Victims of a perpetrator who is under the age of 10 should still have the same rights as any other victim of a sexual crime," she said.

The case puts the Brumby Government under pressure to address the problem, barely two months after releasing new procedures guiding parents, teachers and schools on how to respond to allegations of student sexual assault.

The woman is critical of the department's investigation of sexual assault and bullying in schools and has united with parents from four other state schools to form SWAG, the Student Welfare Action Group.

The group will lobby to have the department's Student Critical Incident Advisory Unit removed from the department and established as an independent body, such as the ombudsman's office.

Parents Victoria executive officer Gail McHardy said the case raised concerns about the ability of the current legislation to protect young children. "There's a whole lot of questions around the children who are under 10. If the police can't take a statement, then how can they report their incident and then who takes carriage of it?"

Shadow education minister Martin Dixon, who will meet SWAG next month, said that, while he did not think the critical incident unit should be removed from the department, any investigation should be fair and open.

"The culture (in the department) seems to be one of hiding the problem instead of fixing the problem," he said. There was a "gaping hole" in the regulations, which needed to be re-written.

But consulting psychologist John Cheetham said six-year-olds did not have a developed sense of right and wrong. "They are too young to put themselves into someone else's shoes," he said. "We've got to be very careful about putting an adult take on it, it's all about context."

A department spokeswoman said the school acted appropriately, and "counselling had been offered to the students".

Oh my, oh my! This thread is going to get shut down!

Let's all try to cool down and maybe visit the 'Bedlam Cliquey' thread...

I'm shutting this topic down for the moment in order to 'clean' it up some. Things have gotten way too aggressive.

//Edit - decided to not re-open due to the subject matter and that had to remove nearly half the posts here. Always a contentious subject and don't wish to give out any more warnings.