Internet Business, Need Workpermit?

[CalicoConsulting]

Almost but not quite on topic, I "own" a Thai business that edits English writing, mostly for customers outside of Thailand. That gets me a one-year multi-entry Type B as a business owner, which in turns gets me a work permit allowing me to work for my company. A few locals hire my company, once in a blue moon, and I legally do the work under my permit.

{Own is in quotes for obvious reasons, I hope. I own 49% because I'm farang, but the Thai owners let me do whatever I want because it's easier for everyone that way.}

In practice, the only product I sell is what comes out of my brain, and I pay VAT and other Thai taxes on it, so it makes sense to let me keep on doing it. It's nice to see that making sense can work sometimes.

I have NO idea what would be involved in selling a product on the Internet. But in my case, I have business that I could very easily hide, but I choose not to because reporting everything is the easiest way for me to stay in this country.

If you go this route, for every farang worker, you've got to have at least 4 full-time Thais, and Immigration will come to your place at random intervals to see if they're there. I have paid people to watch TV, but later I found them real work to do. That can be tricky when your customers aren't in Thailand and you do everything in English and even if you could teach them how it'd take 100 times as long as doing it yourself and then you'd check behind them anyway, can't it?

[llothar]

It probably won't be prosecuted, but I can't see why this should be legal, according to the Thai law.

Because no money is made from "work" out of thailand. This is a different meaning of work as having

an immediate result. It is possible that you can't find a publisher and so it wasn't "work" at all.

This rules are also the same for Germany. An author who works on a script can get social wellfare

because he is not working (unless he has a fixed contract with some publisher).

In German we have different words for this two kinds of for work: "Arbeit" - with the meaning of

activity and "Erwerbsarbeit" to make money. Only the later is covered by law. Even if the first might

convert into an income.

It is just a definition problem.

[block2]

I have NO idea what would be involved in selling a product on the Internet. But in my case, I have business that I could very easily hide, but I choose not to because reporting everything is the easiest way for me to stay in this country.

If you go this route, for every farang worker, you've got to have at least 4 full-time Thais, and Immigration will come to your place at random intervals to see if they're there. I have paid people to watch TV, but later I found them real work to do. That can be tricky when your customers aren't in Thailand and you do everything in English and even if you could teach them how it'd take 100 times as long as doing it yourself and then you'd check behind them anyway, can't it?

I do web design for ticket agents in uk.....but the premier league as put a ban on selling football tickets in uk. Could we open up a website/ business in thailand selling tickets for bangkok shows and also sell premier league tickets through a website based in thailand. ????

All advice is greatly appriciated in advance.

Regards

Block

[Sunny Valentine]

It probably won't be prosecuted, but I can't see why this should be legal, according to the Thai law.

Because no money is made from "work" out of thailand. This is a different meaning of work as having

an immediate result. It is possible that you can't find a publisher and so it wasn't "work" at all.

This rules are also the same for Germany. An author who works on a script can get social wellfare

because he is not working (unless he has a fixed contract with some publisher).

In German we have different words for this two kinds of for work: "Arbeit" - with the meaning of

activity and "Erwerbsarbeit" to make money. Only the later is covered by law. Even if the first might

convert into an income.

It is just a definition problem.

Agreed. But this different view on work (Arbeit vs. Erwerbsarbeit) is not known in Thailand, at least not in the rules published here.

The term "work" is defined very broadly, covering both physical and mental activities, whether or not for wages or other remuneration. Working without a valid work permit even for a day is a criminal offense.

Sunny

[jstumbo]

It probably won't be prosecuted, but I can't see why this should be legal, according to the Thai law.

Because no money is made from "work" out of thailand. This is a different meaning of work as having

an immediate result. It is possible that you can't find a publisher and so it wasn't "work" at all.

This rules are also the same for Germany. An author who works on a script can get social wellfare

because he is not working (unless he has a fixed contract with some publisher).

In German we have different words for this two kinds of for work: "Arbeit" - with the meaning of

activity and "Erwerbsarbeit" to make money. Only the later is covered by law. Even if the first might

convert into an income.

It is just a definition problem.

Agreed. But this different view on work (Arbeit vs. Erwerbsarbeit) is not known in Thailand, at least not in the rules published here.

The term "work" is defined very broadly, covering both physical and mental activities, whether or not for wages or other remuneration. Working without a valid work permit even for a day is a criminal offense.

Sunny

What if you are having a house built and you spend each day watching over the builders? You come up with the design, get the materials, and do QC on the work that they are doing? This would sound like work to me. So I guess you are not allowed to do this?

People have drivers, which is a job. So if you drive your wife somewhere, or give someone a lift, are you working? After all you are taking away the business of the motosai, bus, tuk tuk or taxi.

People have maids. If you clean your house, are you working?

Your in-laws need some help moving something. You lend a hand, are you working?

[A_Traveller]

Allowing for the some what hysterical tone, let's be realistic.

1. 1. On the basis of the data provided you are in breach of the WP requirements. To be blunt I think you would be in many jurisdictions, though some would view it as a grey area.
   
2. 2. If you were in Thailand and you 'designed' your home, all architectural work must be undertaken by a licenced individual, whom, if memory serves must be a Thai.
   
3. 3. If you QC the materials for your personal property, it is unlikely that would be considered 'working' under the act, However, if you were doing this for a number of properties, you would need a WP. Note if you were the owner of multiple properties this would be grey, but if you were viewed as 'developing' then it's WP time again.
   
4. 4. If you drive your wife, or colleagues then, no you are not working.
   
5. 5. If you act in a personal capacity within your own property then no.
   
6. 6. Actions within the family as a good relative are not viewed as work.
   

However, the wording is very broad, again not just in Thailand, and was drafted to provide the authorities with the ability to deal with those who choose to flout the intention of the law. It can also get silly, as in after the Tsunami comments from senior officials about individuals, in many cases who were there a the time, staying {breaching their visas} and working voluntarily {breaching WP requirements}.

In short, Number 1 is true, accept it and decide if that is how your company wishes to continue its business. By the by I've been told that even consulates are being advised that B Visa issuance requires a level of supporting documentation, and in some locations they now insist on WP for repeat issuance.

On the conference point, again often arrangements are made for clearance, which speakers may not even be aware of, rather as in the golfers who were issued with WP's for tournaments. In closing a B visa actually means relatively little, one could view it as an interview visa, but without the formal WP from the Department of Labour, a single days 'work' can land you in a whole heap of trouble, even via the internet.

Regards

[Sunny Valentine]

Allowing for the some what hysterical tone, let's be realistic.

1. 1. On the basis of the data provided you are in breach of the WP requirements. To be blunt I think you would be in many jurisdictions, though some would view it as a grey area.
   
2. 2. If you were in Thailand and you 'designed' your home, all architectural work must be undertaken by a licenced individual, whom, if memory serves must be a Thai.
   
3. 3. If you QC the materials for your personal property, it is unlikely that would be considered 'working' under the act, However, if you were doing this for a number of properties, you would need a WP. Note if you were the owner of multiple properties this would be grey, but if you were viewed as 'developing' then it's WP time again.
   
4. 4. If you drive your wife, or colleagues then, no you are not working.
   
5. 5. If you act in a personal capacity within your own property then no.
   
6. 6. Actions within the family as a good relative are not viewed as work.
   

However, the wording is very broad, again not just in Thailand, and was drafted to provide the authorities with the ability to deal with those who choose to flout the intention of the law. It can also get silly, as in after the Tsunami comments from senior officials about individuals, in many cases who were there a the time, staying {breaching their visas} and working voluntarily {breaching WP requirements}.

In short, Number 1 is true, accept it and decide if that is how your company wishes to continue its business. By the by I've been told that even consulates are being advised that B Visa issuance requires a level of supporting documentation, and in some locations they now insist on WP for repeat issuance.

On the conference point, again often arrangements are made for clearance, which speakers may not even be aware of, rather as in the golfers who were issued with WP's for tournaments. In closing a B visa actually means relatively little, one could view it as an interview visa, but without the formal WP from the Department of Labour, a single days 'work' can land you in a whole heap of trouble, even via the internet.

Regards

The interpretations here seem reasonable and logic, but I have my doubt they are the official ones?

On the process of supplying Golfers a Work Permit, Sunbelt described the process here.

Can't see that happen without the person involved taking note of it.

Sunny

[junkofdavid2]

then I will just move the $1,200,000+ monthly business to Malaysia and Indonesia with the rest of our production.

From an economist's point of view, that may be damaging.

But you think the highly intelligent officer conducting the raid gives a hoot?

[LivinLOS]

in fact they are crazy and they give a sh*** whether you move your biz or not

alas if it was so much better in Malaysia or Indonesia you would have gone there in the first place

We already do business in many countries. One factory in Malaysia, two in Indonesia, one in Vietnam, one in Sri Lanka, two in Thailand, one in Kosovo, and two in China.

Another idea, if they are so strick on what is considered work and needing a WP, then what about the guys that supervise and check the quality when someone is buillding them a house? Would that be considered working when they check the progress of the house, when they check the quality of the house? If you look at the quality of a condo before you buy it, is that working?

This would be a very touch and go.. If you were building your house with resale in mind, then its probably 'work'.. Building your own residential home could well be considered under the 'managing your investment' which is tolerated.

The letter of the law would make it illegal tho and even the implementation and application of the law would be against you if they felt you were building the home to resell and not occupy.

[LivinLOS]

Export is not an Internet Business.

Having a website competition to thaivisa and living on ads might be one.

Or in my case i develop software that is sold over the internet. Everything is in Europe just sitting here and working (without client contacts). This seems to be legal in the same way as it is legal for an book writer to work on his manuscript in the holiday.

How do you equate this is legal ?? its clearly working within Thailand..

The fact your not caught does not make it legal.

Same again for a writer.. If hes writing for profit hes not 'on holiday' is he ?? If he is writing and is not a published / earning author there is the very grey area of is it work or is it a hobby.. Probably a possible argument iof he was unpublished and it was fiction, much harder if it was a factual / manual / non fiction work.

Either way as soon as any renumeration at all is involved (or the expectation of future renumeration) it is then work without much question.

[LivinLOS]

It probably won't be prosecuted, but I can't see why this should be legal, according to the Thai law.

Because no money is made from "work" out of thailand. This is a different meaning of work as having

an immediate result. It is possible that you can't find a publisher and so it wasn't "work" at all.

This rules are also the same for Germany. An author who works on a script can get social wellfare

because he is not working (unless he has a fixed contract with some publisher).

In German we have different words for this two kinds of for work: "Arbeit" - with the meaning of

activity and "Erwerbsarbeit" to make money. Only the later is covered by law. Even if the first might

convert into an income.

It is just a definition problem.

German law is quite irrelevant in Thailand..

Your working in Thailand. Your in Thailand when the action you perform for payment is done. End of.

[LivinLOS]

It probably won't be prosecuted, but I can't see why this should be legal, according to the Thai law.

Because no money is made from "work" out of thailand. This is a different meaning of work as having

an immediate result. It is possible that you can't find a publisher and so it wasn't "work" at all.

This rules are also the same for Germany. An author who works on a script can get social wellfare

because he is not working (unless he has a fixed contract with some publisher).

In German we have different words for this two kinds of for work: "Arbeit" - with the meaning of

activity and "Erwerbsarbeit" to make money. Only the later is covered by law. Even if the first might

convert into an income.

It is just a definition problem.

Agreed. But this different view on work (Arbeit vs. Erwerbsarbeit) is not known in Thailand, at least not in the rules published here.

The term "work" is defined very broadly, covering both physical and mental activities, whether or not for wages or other remuneration. Working without a valid work permit even for a day is a criminal offense.

Sunny

What if you are having a house built and you spend each day watching over the builders? You come up with the design, get the materials, and do QC on the work that they are doing? This would sound like work to me. So I guess you are not allowed to do this?

People have drivers, which is a job. So if you drive your wife somewhere, or give someone a lift, are you working? After all you are taking away the business of the motosai, bus, tuk tuk or taxi.

People have maids. If you clean your house, are you working?

Your in-laws need some help moving something. You lend a hand, are you working?

Yes that is the sum of Thai law !?!?

Stupid / Wide ranging / hard to stick to / can be applied in ridiculous cases.. All agreed.. But still work.

Secondly what you are doing is for payment which none of the above are and makes it a whole additional higher level of criminal activity.

people who work here remotely want to believe otherwise because it suits them, but that doesnt stop it breaking Thai laws.

[Mobi]

A good friend of mine who was running a small internet businesses here, exporting Thai produce, upped and left for a nearby country around 9 months ago, due to the work permit situation.

He was a one man band and kept very much under the radar, but decided it just wasn't worth living with the risk that one day someone might tip the police off.

Moving on, and I know it's been discussed here and on previous threads, but does anyone know of a clear ruling regarding authors who use Thailand as a base for their creative writing. This could also cover famous authors who come here to research novels and either write here or make notes for future novels.

The manuscripts would be emailed back to publishers, and the royalties etc would never come near Thailand.

I believe previous posters have indicated that strictly speaking such people require work permits , but I would be interested to hear if anyone has come across actual cases.

Would John Grisham or John Le Carre need work permits if they wrote a novel or a part thereof in Thailand?

[junkofdavid2]

Secondly what you are doing is for payment which none of the above are and makes it a whole additional higher level of criminal activity.

people who work here remotely want to believe otherwise because it suits them, but that doesnt stop it breaking Thai laws.

Actually, following Thai Law strictly... even volunteer work requires a work permit.

[astral]

May I just ask what language your website will be in ?

Naka.

It seems English is not a strong point here.

To sell over the net is difficult enough, so presentation is all important.

[LivinLOS]

Secondly what you are doing is for payment which none of the above are and makes it a whole additional higher level of criminal activity.

people who work here remotely want to believe otherwise because it suits them, but that doesnt stop it breaking Thai laws.

Actually, following Thai Law strictly... even volunteer work requires a work permit.

Yes thats well known and correct..

But my point was that many things in Thailand that are unpaid could be classed as 'work' but anything that is paid 'must' be classified as work.

By being paid for it, or expecting payment, makes it work for sure.

[llothar]

By being paid for it, or expecting payment, makes it work for sure.

Not when it is a hobby. Sometimes you don't know that you turn this into money.

Well and for a WP you must show financial transactions. Otherwise you have the same situation as with the

special investment companies that are only there for buying properties. The government just told us that they

are not businesses and you can not have a WP, B-Visa or any other benefits from it.

Fact is this point can't be covered by law. You simply can't do it without a contradiction.

Edited October 8, 2007 by llothar

[Sunny Valentine]

Fact is this point can't be covered by law. You simply can't do it without a contradiction.

I think you summarized the general Thai legal dilemma very well with these words!

Sunny

[A_Traveller]

Otherwise you have the same situation as with the special investment companies that are only there for buying properties. The government just told us that they are not businesses and you can not have a WP, B-Visa or any other benefits from it. [Logically, would this not be covered by a suitably capitalised Holding or OpCo?]

Regards

/edit remove unnecessary quote//

Edited October 8, 2007 by A_Traveller

[LivinLOS]

By being paid for it, or expecting payment, makes it work for sure.

Not when it is a hobby. Sometimes you don't know that you turn this into money.

Well and for a WP you must show financial transactions. Otherwise you have the same situation as with the

special investment companies that are only there for buying properties. The government just told us that they

are not businesses and you can not have a WP, B-Visa or any other benefits from it.

Fact is this point can't be covered by law. You simply can't do it without a contradiction.

When you get paid for work done (however much you enjoy it) it stops being a hobby and starts being work.

Secondly you say its not possible to be legal. What stops you forming a company, getting a B visa, getting a work permit ?? All these things are possible to anyone, people just dont like the idea as it costs money. Well thats what getting legal takes.