Australian Aged Pension

[4MyEgo]

15 hours ago, scorecard said:

"But hey, you believe what you want to believe, they are both law and they both apply to each respective pension, in layman's terms, once again, Article 18 for Age Pensions, taxable only in Thailand,"

 

The bold text above seems to have been confirmed several times.

 

So that leaves Oz citizens who receive OAP funds into their Thai bank accounts (specifically those who have no other income) and how will these funds be taxed by the Thai Revenue Department?'

 

There's been multiple postings re this very specific scenario but I'm still wondering what the answer is.

 

What's your thoughts? 

 

Thank you for your confirmation on the above.

 

I am not an expert in this or any matter when it comes to this stuff, that said, my thoughts would be to just keep enjoying life in Thailand, until you receive a letter from the Thai Revenue Department, if ever.

 

I say that because, they know Age Pensioners are small fry and just get by on their Age Pensions, month by month and also have the exchange rates to contend with.

 

On the other hand, if a "wealthy pensioner", not your typical Age Pensioner on 50,000 odd baht a month is bringing in big bucks, then I believe they will have to obtain a TFN and lodge a return, if tax hasn't been taken out in the country they sourced their funds from.

 

I note the key word being "wealthy", source Google, that said, I am of the opinion that they know the 50,000 baht goes straight into their economy, so why p-ss off Age Pensioners, who may return to their country where they get the pension from, it would be a loss/loss situation, but a realistic one IMO.

 

They are after the big fish, but have scared a lot of the little ones. 

 

 A wealthy pensioner residing in Thailand for at least 180 days is subject to a tax rate under the new tax law. Pensions brought from their country of origin may not be subject to the law if the person can prove that they have been taxed prior to being transferred to Thailand.

[georgegeorgia]

Ahhh your all up the Shxt  creek without a paddle 😂

[4MyEgo]

2 hours ago, LosLobo said:

I unreservedly apologise to @My Ego and this forum for unknowingly posting an incorrect viewpoint and the out of context information of ATO Blake.

 

No apology required.

 

Perhaps of some interest.

 

https://community.ato.gov.au/s/question/a0JRF000000iq692AA/p00272926

[4MyEgo]

6 hours ago, Lacessit said:

I don't block him. I enjoy watching his pathetic attempts at gaslighting.

@LosLobo @scorecard @Olmate @rhodie @norbra @Fat is a type of crazy

 

I believe I have provided enough information as others have to accept that the Age Pension is not taxable by Australia if residing in Thailand as a resident, that said, under the DTA, the Age Pension is taxable in Thailand, "if they so want to enforce it", however, as they haven't done so since 1989 when the DTA came into effect, I can't see them taxing Age Pensioners in Thailand, they are after the bigger fish IMO.

 

The above said, I will no longer respond to HK, yes, I know I said I wouldn't before, but whenever he tried to get up, I had to give him another, then another, then another, suffice to say, I am of the opinion that he is not well, mentally, so best I give up on him saying he was WRONG, we all know he is, and dare I say it, I will now let him sit in his sunken yellow submarine, because he has certainly taken a few missiles in my last posts.

 

Apologies for all the posts, but at the end of the day, we did get the information that we sought and are correct on it, team work - 1 

[Mike Lister]

Umm, do I sense that we have  a member with multiple accounts or is it just me? I think maybe some IP tests are in order.

[4MyEgo]

1 minute ago, Mike Lister said:

Umm, do I sense that we have  a member with multiple accounts or is it just me? I think maybe some IP tests are in order.

 

Only 1 here.

[Lacessit]

10 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Umm, do I sense that we have  a member with multiple accounts or is it just me? I think maybe some IP tests are in order.

IMO it would be more productive to concern yourself with multiple posts claiming the same thing, but that's just me. Unfortunately, ASEAN cannot test poster sanity.

Your check may find I had another account quite a few years ago under a different nom-de-plume. However, my two identities have not been used contemporaneously, different service provider.

[Olmate]

50 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

 

Only 1 here.

Only 1 poster on this topic has an identity crisis if that what mike is looking for!! 😂

[Olmate]

1 hour ago, georgegeorgia said:

Ahhh your all up the Shxt  creek without a paddle 😂

How is it up there George? 

[Lacessit]

Just now, Olmate said:

How is it up there George? 

He's probably in a barbed wire canoe as well.

[Olmate]

 And in another vein  altogether.... Dont rush to sign on for the OAP  +70day delay in processing your initial claim! 

[4MyEgo]

58 minutes ago, Olmate said:

 And in another vein  altogether.... Dont rush to sign on for the OAP  +70day delay in processing your initial claim! 

 

Fortunately they back date it when approved, that said, I have been told, but cannot confirm, that you can apply 13 weeks prior to pension age.

 

If the above is correct, one would only be 3 weeks out if they applied 13 weeks beforehand.

[Lacessit]

3 hours ago, 4MyEgo said:

 

 

 

 

 A wealthy pensioner residing in Thailand for at least 180 days is subject to a tax rate under the new tax law. Pensions brought from their country of origin may not be subject to the law if the person can prove that they have been taxed prior to being transferred to Thailand.

IMO if you are in Thailand more than 180 days ( FY? Calendar? ) you will be taxed by the Thai authorities on income.

Someone solely on the OAP in Australia has the pension to report as assessable. However, after thresholds and offsets are taken into account, no tax is payable anyway.

It's a moot point whether submitting a tax return in Australia means one has been taxed, even though they actually paid no tax.

I tend to agree the accent is on the word WEALTHY, although as yet that has not been defined by the Thai authorities.

It should be common sense government pensions are not taxable anywhere on the planet, but that would mean thousands if not hundreds of thousands of bureaucrats would be out of a job.

[4MyEgo]

5 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

IMO if you are in Thailand more than 180 days ( FY? Calendar? ) you will be taxed by the Thai authorities on income.

 

Fair call, it's merely differences of opinions. Personally I would change the word "you" with "could" be taxed by Thai authorities on income. Lets not forget the DTA has been in force since 1989, yet here we are in 2024, some 35 years on, and I haven't heard of one Australian Age Pensioner stating that the Thai authorities tax his Age Pension. Not saying that they are not within their rights. All countries have codes and regulations, yet seldom enforce them.

 

9 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

Someone solely on the OAP in Australia has the pension to report as assessable. However, after thresholds and offsets are taken into account, no tax is payable anyway.

It's a moot point whether submitting a tax return in Australia means one has been taxed, even though they actually paid no tax.

I tend to agree the accent is on the word WEALTHY, although as yet that has not been defined by the Thai authorities.

It should be common sense government pensions are not taxable anywhere on the planet, but that would mean thousands if not hundreds of thousands of bureaucrats would be out of a job.

 

Totally agree with you on that.

 

[Lacessit]

4 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

 

Fair call, it's merely differences of opinions. Personally I would change the word "you" with "could" be taxed by Thai authorities on income. Lets not forget the DTA has been in force since 1989, yet here we are in 2024, some 35 years on, and I haven't heard of one Australian Age Pensioner stating that the Thai authorities tax his Age Pension. Not saying that they are not within their rights. All countries have codes and regulations, yet seldom enforce them.

 

 

Totally agree with you on that.

 

I could equally replace "will" and "could" with "might".

 

It's very early days yet, IMO it will probably take one or two years for everything to shake out.

 

The most critical aspect appears to be whether Thai  Immigration will be demanding a tax number, or evidence of a tax return, when any foreigner fronts up for a retirement extension.

[4MyEgo]

10 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

The most critical aspect appears to be whether Thai  Immigration will be demanding a tax number, or evidence of a tax return, when any foreigner fronts up for a retirement extension.

 

I somehow can't see that happening, and the reason I say that is, because think how many expats here use an agent because they don't have the funds to put in the bank.

 

The above said, that would rattle a lot of people's extra cash flow, agent's, immigration officers and the like all the way to the top.

 

They might do that to those on Marriage extensions and Retirement extensions that show money in their accounts.

 

Now if they go down that avenue, I might just get me an agent as the interest you get from banks here is pitiful, and you pay 17% tax on that interest, so I am told.

 

If I left that money in the bank back home, even after paying 10% withholding tax, the interest would be more than enough to cover the agents costs + some left for me.

 

There's more than one way to skin a fat cat, just my opinion.

[LosLobo]

21 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

I could equally replace "will" and "could" with "might".

 

It's very early days yet, IMO it will probably take one or two years for everything to shake out.

 

The most critical aspect appears to be whether Thai  Immigration will be demanding a tax number, or evidence of a tax return, when any foreigner fronts up for a retirement extension.

FYI :

Tax ID Required For Thai Retirement Visa Extension? - Integrity Legal - Law Firm in Bangkok | Bangkok Lawyer | Legal Services Thailand

[4MyEgo]

8 minutes ago, LosLobo said:

FYI :

Tax ID Required For Thai Retirement Visa Extension? - Integrity Legal - Law Firm in Bangkok | Bangkok Lawyer | Legal Services Thailand

 

Might be time to see an agent, come next retirement extension ?

 

I say that because, immigration won't allow their piece of cake to be taken away from them, all the way to the top IMO. Talking about all of those expats that don't have the funds to put in the bank and use agents for a fee which is also split with you know who.

 

As mentioned, more than one way to skin a fat cat oi.

 

 

[Lacessit]

13 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

 

Might be time to see an agent, come next retirement extension ?

 

I say that because, immigration won't allow their piece of cake to be taken away from them, all the way to the top IMO. Talking about all of those expats that don't have the funds to put in the bank and use agents for a fee which is also split with you know who.

 

As mentioned, more than one way to skin a fat cat oi.

 

 

I must admit it does grate somewhat keeping 800K baht in a savings account when it could be out there working for me.

 

Having said that, I have a few concerns about the route you describe. The first is whether the other shoe drops, and thousands of extensions suddenly become illegal as a new broom sweeps through.

The second is I don't know if my local office is corrupt or straight arrow.

The third is picking an effective and honest agent, which is an oxymoron, given what they are doing. There are stories of agents losing or stealing passports, none of us need that hassle.

Perhaps an agent just to negotiate the tax component with Immigration?

 

 

[4MyEgo]

9 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

I must admit it does grate somewhat keeping 800K baht in a savings account when it could be out there working for me.

 

I feel you, same, same here.

 

9 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

Having said that, I have a few concerns about the route you describe. The first is whether the other shoe drops, and thousands of extensions suddenly become illegal as a new broom sweeps through.

 

Agree, however the trough is where they all eat out from, and if you know pigs, just try and take away their meals and you could lose a hand quite easily, that or end up as their meal.

 

12 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

The second is I don't know if my local office is corrupt or straight arrow.

 

IMO i believe they all are, it's part and parcel of the system, this is Thailand remember, even though they might look clean, any opportunity they have, they will look for that extra baht, even happens with street vendors, e.g. standing in line to buy some fruit, farang (tourist) in front of me, I will have some pineapple, melon and watermelon, 300 baht, ok, thanks, me next, speaking in Thai, pineapple, melon and watermelon 120 baht.

 

16 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

The third is picking an effective and honest agent, which is an oxymoron, given what they are doing. There are stories of agents losing or stealing passports, none of us need that hassle.

Perhaps an agent just to negotiate the tax component with Immigration?

 

I don't know of any, and agree with what you are saying as I use and have always used the money in the bank route, one will have to address it when and if the time comes, and I decide to use that route, via expats that have used the same agent for years.

 

[Lacessit]

7 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

 

I feel you, same, same here.

 

 

Agree, however the trough is where they all eat out from, and if you know pigs, just try and take away their meals and you could lose a hand quite easily, that or end up as their meal.

 

 

IMO i believe they all are, it's part and parcel of the system, this is Thailand remember, even though they might look clean, any opportunity they have, they will look for that extra baht, even happens with street vendors, e.g. standing in line to buy some fruit, farang (tourist) in front of me, I will have some pineapple, melon and watermelon, 300 baht, ok, thanks, me next, speaking in Thai, pineapple, melon and watermelon 120 baht.

 

 

I don't know of any, and agree with what you are saying as I use and have always used the money in the bank route, one will have to address it when and if the time comes, and I decide to use that route, via expats that have used the same agent for years.

 

Off topic,speaking Thai can be very useful. I was recently at a food court when a young Thai pushed in front of me. Gave him my best death stare, and said "mai supap" ( disrespectful ). He backed off, sheepishly.

 

On topic, I agree word of mouth from foreigners who are using the illegal agent route sounds best.

[Lacessit]

7 minutes ago, norbra said:

Just received a quote (new customer )from TVC agency 25k for a funded retirement extension only, no non imm O visa included.

Sounds about 10k overcharge to me.

Just looking at options,at this price it's a no go

Getting a non-O visa is a different process.

As I understand it, 25 - 35K baht for an extension obtained by bribery is the going rate.

For 15K, what you are supposed to get is rapid service at Immigration, and all your paperwork ducks in a row, assembled for you by the agent. Including a legit 800 K baht in the bank.

[georgegeorgia]

7 hours ago, Lacessit said:

Off topic,speaking Thai can be very useful. I was recently at a food court when a young Thai pushed in front of me. Gave him my best death stare, and said "mai supap" ( disrespectful ). He backed off, sheepishly.

 

On topic, I agree word of mouth from foreigners who are using the illegal agent route sounds best.

I don't want to spoil the main topic but I wouldn't recommend you keep doing that , sometimes it's better to let people "win" rather than confronting them

Your 80 what if this young guy turns on you , sometimes better to turn the other cheek 

[Olmate]

9 hours ago, Lacessit said:

Getting a non-O visa is a different process.

As I understand it, 25 - 35K baht for an extension obtained by bribery is the going rate.

For 15K, what you are supposed to get is rapid service at Immigration, and all your paperwork ducks in a row, assembled for you by the agent. Including a legit 800 K baht in the bank.

No, 12/15k will get you O, OA ext good agent using their 800k, higher amount is initial conversion 15mths.

[Lacessit]

3 hours ago, georgegeorgia said:

I don't want to spoil the main topic but I wouldn't recommend you keep doing that , sometimes it's better to let people "win" rather than confronting them

Your 80 what if this young guy turns on you , sometimes better to turn the other cheek 

The probability of someone turning on me in such a public place would be rather low.

I might be 80. However, I do keep myself in good shape, and I am bigger than most Thais.

I'd agree I should pick my battles. That does not mean I become a doormat for everybody.

[LosLobo]

12 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

The probability of someone turning on me in such a public place would be rather low.

I might be 80. However, I do keep myself in good shape, and I am bigger than most Thais.

I'd agree I should pick my battles. That does not mean I become a doormat for everybody.

Ergo.....
 

Nemo me impune lacessit.

[Lacessit]

1 hour ago, LosLobo said:

Ergo.....
 

Nemo me impune lacessit.

Latin was part of my education, way back when. I have always admired the ability of the language to express concepts in simple and sometimes brutal terms.

[Artisi]

17 hours ago, Olmate said:

 And in another vein  altogether.... Dont rush to sign on for the OAP  +70day delay in processing your initial claim! 

Why not apply if eligible, any claim will be backdated to the day you applied.

[Olmate]

2 hours ago, Artisi said:

Why not apply if eligible, any claim will be backdated to the day you applied.

I guess going back from here with few resources (accom etc)may be uneasy.. if needing that income rent and other benefits, it may be a concern to somefolk.

[4MyEgo]

An article of the new tax in Thailand that I found interesting today, here on AseanNow with my comments below.

 

https://www.huahintoday.com/local-news/expat-tax-twists-in-thailand-navigating-the-new-landscape-in-2024/

 

I would suggest when the article is talking about pensions below, inverted commas, they are not talking about Age Pensions, however, they can tax Age Pensions if they decide to under Article 18 of the DTA for Aussies, but can't see this happening personally as they could have done this from 1989 when the DTA was agreed upon, so why bother now ?

 

I believe this is more so aimed at the "Wealthy Pensioners" drawing down from sourced funds like superannuation schemes and other investment vehicle's that will be taxed in Thailand, and those individuals being taxed here in Thailand can apply for credits back in their country, where the funds came from.

 

Makes sense to me as Age Pensions do not get taxed in Australia if they are a resident of Thailand, therefore there would be no credits applicable for Age Pensioners.

 

Copy and pasted from the article below.

 

"Pensions, while taxed in Thailand, may find some relief through double taxation agreements with the home country".

 

"Wealthy Pensioners":

• Minimum age: 50 years old.
• Minimum annual pension or passive income: US$80,000.
• Alternative option: If your income falls between US$40,000 and US$80,000, you can compensate with a minimum investment of US$250,000 in Thai government bonds, foreign direct investment, or Thai property.