Us Embassy Is Enough To Make A Grown Man Cry!

[koheesti]

In about 2000 an American friend of mine movedback to the States with his pregnant French lawyer wife. When they arrived at the border she was asked how long she planned to stay in America. When she answered, "Forever, I'm married" they deported her back to Europe. She didn't yet have a "stay forever" visa. It was a few months before she got to go join her husband (went for a new job so had to stay).

[way2muchcoffee]

Your assertion is flawed. Simple numbers of immigrants has little bearing on the fairness of the immigration process. A more accurate way of determining immigration fairness would be done in either one of two ways.

1) Number of Immigrants divided by the the population of the country. This would account for the fact that larger more populous countries can 'carry' more immigrants.

Sounds good but that would be saying that if Estonia with a population of 1.4 million took in 1000 immigrants (0.071%) they would be more "immigrant friendly" than the US if the US with a population of 300 million took in 200,000 immigrants (0.067%). It's a nice statistic but rates don't always tell the story.

2) Number of Visa Applications accepted divided by number of Visa Applications denied. This would point directly to the fairness question.

Not necessarily. Some countries with more benefits etc are more attractive to "less desirable" immigrants than others. It has nothing to do with how fair the procedure is.

Agreed. It would be difficult to find a true measure of the fairness of immigration policy. Some measures are better than others and speak to different aspects of the issue.

[thaihome]

Perhaps the US Embassy would pass out VISAs more easily if tens of thousands of Thais did not lie on previous applications and then stay illegally in the States.

Tens of thousands of Thais are NOT my legal wife. You obviously think that all situations are the same. Do you work at the embassy?

A better system needs to be out in place, I agree.

Gary, what do you want them to do?

Believe everybody after being lied to over and over and over....?

It's a shame that you can't get your wife a VISA but the Thai travelers that preceeded you have not fullfilled their obligations and are now illegal. Not just a few but thousands and thousands.

If you contact your Congressmans office, they usually have full time staff working on immigration issues and may help you.

The first place to start would be to have someone to talk to. Failing that a human answering an email would help. I paid $20 for a phone call to talk to a guy who didn't know ANYTHING. The system stinks, that's a fact. I have no doubt that my wife can get a visa, BUT, I only have the need to go in an emergency. I have no plans for a stateside holiday.

ADDED - To take five minutes to talk to a citizen shouldn't be too much to ask of our public servants..

The conversation could go like this; Here is our marriage certificate, as you can see we have been legally married and living together in Thailand for five years. Here is her passport, yes she has taken my last name. Here are her five chanotes and here is her bankbook. The reason for a visa is if/when an emergency occurs we want to be able to go straight to the airport.

Why do I need to take a batch of sh!t for a simple matter?

I have not finished the entire thread, but I wonder why you refuse to listen to the several posters that have told you how to get a visa, probably a 10 year multi entry one at that. What you need to do is show YOUR ties to Thailand and then your wife’s ties to you. That will convince the consulate officer to give her the visa. I know this because my wife has one and I know at a dozen other guys that live in Thailand and all their wive’s have visas. You don’t need to speak to some one in person, you do not fall is some sort of crack in the system. The system fits you perfectly.

Now shut up your whining and just go do it.

TH

[dingdongrb]

The fiance visa was a real pain to put together, but I had done a lot of research and had more than enough evidence to provide. I made sure everything was neatly filed and in the proper order (there is a proper order).

I was still very nervous....and then read about the requirement that ECCO certified paper clips (no kidding) must be used.....no staples. I had no idea what a ECCO certified paper clip was.

I decided to get a lawyer.

I paid 3000 dollars for them to make copies of the work I had already done, and attach an official looking cover letter with the firms name boldly displayed.

We got the visa first try.

I try to tell myself that the cover letter helped (so I don't think about blowing 3 grand on 3 dollars worth of copies)

The lawyer never heard of an ECCO certified paper clip either.....then I noticed the box on the secretary's desk.....ECCO BRAND PAPER CLIPS!!

It truly is a requirement. Whether or not it is enforced, I don't know....

But it could drive anyone to tears

Getting a lawyer is a waste of $$$$. That is unless you have less than a HS education and are stupid. I did the K-1 Fiance visa for my Thai wife and had no problems getting the visa issued the first time submitted. Grant you, it took many hours of filling out and organizing the proper paperwork. The directions are pretty straight-forward and it is no more difficult then doing your yearly taxes times 4 (Long form that is.)... But then again that is why H&R Block is so successful, too many morans that can't read and write...

Here's what I think of lawyers:

A guy walks into a bar and yells out, "All laywers are a$$-holes."... A man at the end of the bar yells back to the first guy, "I resent that!"... The original guy asks, "Why are you a lawyer?" The man at the bar says, 'No, I'm an a$$-hole!"

[dingdongrb]

The fiance visa was a real pain to put together, but I had done a lot of research and had more than enough evidence to provide. I made sure everything was neatly filed and in the proper order (there is a proper order).

I was still very nervous....and then read about the requirement that ECCO certified paper clips (no kidding) must be used.....no staples. I had no idea what a ECCO certified paper clip was.

I decided to get a lawyer.

I paid 3000 dollars for them to make copies of the work I had already done, and attach an official looking cover letter with the firms name boldly displayed.

We got the visa first try.

I try to tell myself that the cover letter helped (so I don't think about blowing 3 grand on 3 dollars worth of copies)

The lawyer never heard of an ECCO certified paper clip either.....then I noticed the box on the secretary's desk.....ECCO BRAND PAPER CLIPS!!

It truly is a requirement. Whether or not it is enforced, I don't know....

But it could drive anyone to tears

Getting a lawyer is a waste of $$$$. That is unless you have less than a HS education and are stupid. I did the K-1 Fiance visa for my Thai wife and had no problems getting the visa issued the first time submitted. Grant you, it took many hours of filling out and organizing the proper paperwork. The directions are pretty straight-forward and it is no more difficult then doing your yearly taxes times 4 (Long form that is.)... But then again that is why H&R Block is so successful, too many morans that can't read and write...

Here's what I think of lawyers:

A guy walks into a bar and yells out, "All laywers are ace-wholes."... A man at the end of the bar yells back to the first guy, "I resent that!"... The original guy asks, "Why are you a lawyer?" The man at the bar says, 'No, I'm an ace-whole!"

[Schooner]

I believe that I read somewhere that the majority of visa applications are turned down for inadequate paperwork. I also read that the console's have about 10 mins to review and decide each persons application and that the decision is made before the interview. the interview is only a formality in 99% of cases because the decision was already made during the review. I also read that they could care less about the way you are dressed or age differences.

There are ample warnings about the need to supply the required information and there even are instructions on how to orgainize and present it. I had to read over and over the instructions and check and recheck the paperwork for the two visas that I got approved. In one case I happen to catch a change in a form the day before I mailed it. It is not that difficult but you have to be careful. All total I maybe had 15 - 20 hours tied up in the process. It took about 7 months start to finish and after we were married we had to go through the whole process again for the green card. That process takes about the same length of time and she cannot work, drive or go to school during that time. We both now have to report any address changes within 10 days...forever

I know people who are not detail orentiated and would have a struggle with the paper work. There are no second chances you have to get it right the first time and they do not have time to help or coach people. Sad as that is I guess I can understand it.

Having said all that there are veterans orgainizations that will go the extra mile to help vets with stuff like this.

I also submitted a couple of questions to the staff (after recieving the standard reply) and they were answered politly and in a friendly manner.

From the news I read that the National Visa Center (which does the name checks and the preliminary stuff before sending it on to the BKK Embassy) they were looking to hire 1500 people because of the huge influx (3 million) of applications for citizenship last year due to the consideration of changing immigration laws.

[Mike45]

The problem as I see it is:

1. The governments inability to lower the bar for spouses of US citizens is not in line with the administrations "family values" platform. A spouse should never be denied to come and stay with there spouse in the USA. Put all kinds of restrictions on them if you want to... but let them come.

2. From reading other post's apparently you can appeal to a judge if you are denied in other countries. I do not believe that is possible here in the US. It should be.

3. Complaining to your Congressional Rep. They are required to get an answer to the rep but they do not have to accommodate his request.

[MyFriend You]

The bottom line in the OP's story appears to be that the guy did not have adequate money. Living in USA as a married couple with inadequate money & probably no health care is no picnic. He is likely better off in Thailand.

If you read between the first and "bottom line", you might chance a few guesses:

1 - With 25 years of Army service .. and discharged honorably .. he should be entitled to a military pension ..

2 - He will have full VA medical benefits

3 - If that pension does not allow him to live above the poverty line in the US, there is much more wrong with our (USA) system than the attitudes of low-level bureaucrats.

Being " .. better off in Thailand" is not a decision that should be made on behalf of a man who spent 25 years defending his country.

I retired US Army in 1992 after 24 years service, 3 wars, and my pension is a grand total of $22,000 a year before taxes, so if the OP only has his Military retirement, he is considered below poverty level. He & she can live quite comfortably in Thailand on that, they'd have to go on welfare and State Aid to survive anywhere in the US................

[klikster]

The bottom line in the OP's story appears to be that the guy did not have adequate money. Living in USA as a married couple with inadequate money & probably no health care is no picnic. He is likely better off in Thailand.

If you read between the first and "bottom line", you might chance a few guesses:

1 - With 25 years of Army service .. and discharged honorably .. he should be entitled to a military pension ..

2 - He will have full VA medical benefits

3 - If that pension does not allow him to live above the poverty line in the US, there is much more wrong with our (USA) system than the attitudes of low-level bureaucrats.

Being " .. better off in Thailand" is not a decision that should be made on behalf of a man who spent 25 years defending his country.

I retired US Army in 1992 after 24 years service, 3 wars, and my pension is a grand total of $22,000 a year before taxes, so if the OP only has his Military retirement, he is considered below poverty level. He & she can live quite comfortably in Thailand on that, they'd have to go on welfare and State Aid to survive anywhere in the US................

First, thank you for your service.

Second, it's a dam_n shame that nothing ever seems to change. I wonder what a California Highway Patrol officer retires on?

[way2muchcoffee]

$22k before taxes is ridiculous for 24 yrs of service. Would that be E6, E7, or E8? Which branch? At least you get some medical benefits too, but it is shameful how low that pension amount is....

[jstumbo]

$22k before taxes is ridiculous for 24 yrs of service. Would that be E6, E7, or E8? Which branch? At least you get some medical benefits too, but it is shameful how low that pension amount is....

I have never worked for a company that gives me a pension. Only 401Ks, where I contribute. And no one is going to give me any money when I retire, probably wont even have Social Security by that time. Why should a company be responsible for me after I quit working for them. I work, they pay me. We both get something. Why should they pay me even when I have stopped working? Planning and saving for my retirement is my responsibility, not the company I work for. That is why many large corporations in the US are in financial trouble because they have too many responsibilities for people that no longer work for the company.

I have two Uncles that both retired from the Marines. They joined when they were 18, finished when they were around my age. At my age, they were collecting a pension and a paycheck from their new jobs.

Edited April 23, 2008 by jstumbo

[way2muchcoffee]

$22k before taxes is ridiculous for 24 yrs of service. Would that be E6, E7, or E8? Which branch? At least you get some medical benefits too, but it is shameful how low that pension amount is....

I have never worked for a company that gives me a pension. Only 401Ks, where I contribute. And no one is going to give me any money when I retire, probably wont even have Social Security by that time. Why should a company be responsible for me after I quit working for them. I work, they pay me. We both get something. Why should they pay me even when I have stopped working? Planning and saving for my retirement is my responsibility, not the company I work for. That is why many large corporations in the US are in financial trouble because they have too many responsibilities for people that no longer work for the company.

I have two Uncles that both retired from the Marines. They joined when they were 18, finished when they were around my age. At my age, they were collecting a pension and a paycheck from their new jobs.

1) Military personnel work in jobs that serve their country directly

2) Military personnel may be asked to go to war and die for their country

3) Military personnel work for wages well below what private companies pay

4) Military personnel work much longer hours than private employees - for no overtime

5) Military personnel often have troubled family lives as they are often away for extended periods

6) Military personnel do all these things out of a sense of duty, while the rest of the country sits on their butts watching events unfold on Fox News.

[jstumbo]

$22k before taxes is ridiculous for 24 yrs of service. Would that be E6, E7, or E8? Which branch? At least you get some medical benefits too, but it is shameful how low that pension amount is....

I have never worked for a company that gives me a pension. Only 401Ks, where I contribute. And no one is going to give me any money when I retire, probably wont even have Social Security by that time. Why should a company be responsible for me after I quit working for them. I work, they pay me. We both get something. Why should they pay me even when I have stopped working? Planning and saving for my retirement is my responsibility, not the company I work for. That is why many large corporations in the US are in financial trouble because they have too many responsibilities for people that no longer work for the company.

I have two Uncles that both retired from the Marines. They joined when they were 18, finished when they were around my age. At my age, they were collecting a pension and a paycheck from their new jobs.

1) Military personnel work in jobs that serve their country directly

2) Military personnel may be asked to go to war and die for their country

3) Military personnel work for wages well below what private companies pay

4) Military personnel work much longer hours than private employees - for no overtime

5) Military personnel often have troubled family lives as they are often away for extended periods

6) Military personnel do all these things out of a sense of duty, while the rest of the country sits on their butts watching events unfold on Fox News.

7) Military personnel choose to do this knowing all the risks and benefits and no one makes them do it.

I appreciate what they do. I think they should be paid more. But it is a choice they make to join up with the current benefits. I was not really meaning that they specifically should not get a pension, I just do not understand pensions in the first place. Why is it the responsibility of an employer, whoever they are, to pay you after you quit working for them?

[way2muchcoffee]

Fair point I guess.

[lomatopo]

I don't fall into any of the regular situations. By that I mean that we have no intention of EVER living in the US. My parents are both still alive and are 87 years old. All I want is in the event of an emergency, to be able to take my wife, get on a plane and go. Why is that so difficult and why can't anyone tell me why it is a problem? It REALLY stinks that there is no one at the US embassy who has time to listen to their citizens needs. Emails are referred to other email addresses and NONE are answered by live breathing people.

You should try contacting the office of the Congressman who represents the district in which your parents live. If you still pay any State taxes, then contact your Rep.

[noise]

$22k before taxes is ridiculous for 24 yrs of service. Would that be E6, E7, or E8? Which branch? At least you get some medical benefits too, but it is shameful how low that pension amount is....

I have never worked for a company that gives me a pension. .... Why should a company be responsible for me after I quit working for them. I work, they pay me. ..... Why should they pay me even when I have stopped working? Planning and saving for my retirement is my responsibility, not the company I work for. That is why many large corporations in the US are in financial trouble because they have too many responsibilities for people that no longer work for the company.

I have two Uncles that both retired from the Marines. They joined when they were 18, finished when they were around my age. At my age, they were collecting a pension and a paycheck from their new jobs.

1. Money corporations put into your pension fund is actually part of your salary. That is why job shoppers get paid so much more; they pay for everything out of your own pocket. If you negotiated your salary correctly, you should be getting more working for a company with no retirement plan than for a company that does provide one.

2. I couldn't tell: were you complaing about your uncles collecting a pension when they shouldn't because they no longer are active duty Marines doing that job? And complaining they were drawing a pension and a salary?

[klikster]

3) Military personnel work for wages well below what private companies pay

If my memory serves me correctly, my first monthly pay ('62) was under US$ 80. My base pay grade after 3 years was $124.50.

I wonder what a combat SFC makes (including overseas and hazard duty pay) in IRAQ today .. compared to a Blackwater security guy?

[Gary A]

I don't fall into any of the regular situations. By that I mean that we have no intention of EVER living in the US. My parents are both still alive and are 87 years old. All I want is in the event of an emergency, to be able to take my wife, get on a plane and go. Why is that so difficult and why can't anyone tell me why it is a problem? It REALLY stinks that there is no one at the US embassy who has time to listen to their citizens needs. Emails are referred to other email addresses and NONE are answered by live breathing people.

You should try contacting the office of the Congressman who represents the district in which your parents live. If you still pay any State taxes, then contact your Rep.

Actually I have also gone that route and all I get are canned messages telling me how valuable my opinion is. I think politicians and the embassy people have the same computer programmers. I don't know of any US government agency that has real live people answering email. It only amounts to more frustration. I have given up and refuse to jump through their silly hoops for what should be a simple thing.

[PeaceBlondie]

GaryA, it is a shame that govt.'s and Congressional staffs cannot answer emails or even phone calls directly and personally. Sometimes, it is because they represent so many constituents (between 30 million and half a million per senator or congressperson) they cannot possibly respond to all of them. Often your complaint isn't listed on their checklist. Often they do not have the funds to do it (I wonder if Congressmen spend their campaign funds on regular office staff).

I collect pensions which my employers say I earned when I worked. Fair enough. Often, many freelancers do not want to pay into their pensions until it's too late. Such as the ordained ministers who take the SS exclusion until they realize they won't have a home or decent pension when they stop preaching. My two oldest kids look forward to the pensions they have already half earned. The younger kids do not have a clue about old age.

[Gary A]

GaryA, it is a shame that govt.'s and Congressional staffs cannot answer emails or even phone calls directly and personally. Sometimes, it is because they represent so many constituents (between 30 million and half a million per senator or congressperson) they cannot possibly respond to all of them. Often your complaint isn't listed on their checklist. Often they do not have the funds to do it (I wonder if Congressmen spend their campaign funds on regular office staff).

I collect pensions which my employers say I earned when I worked. Fair enough. Often, many freelancers do not want to pay into their pensions until it's too late. Such as the ordained ministers who take the SS exclusion until they realize they won't have a home or decent pension when they stop preaching. My two oldest kids look forward to the pensions they have already half earned. The younger kids do not have a clue about old age.

I can understand why politicians representing many thousands of people cannot answer emails. There are most likely MANY cranks and crazies writing letters and emails.

The US embassy is a different situation. There is absolutely no reason that they cannot take a logical approach. I worked as a process engineer for many years. That's a fancy term for a trouble shooter. If I had taken all my requests, given them a number and processed them one by one I would have NEVER gotten through them. Each request was prioritized. Easily solved problems went into one file and more complicated problems were sorted into different priorities from there. Easy problems were solved within a few days and sometimes just a few hours. Some problems were never totally solved.

This is my second marriage here in Thailand. In 1994, I wanted to attend my parent's fiftieth wedding anniversary. I took my Thai wife to the embassy and stood in a long line of Thai people waiting to see the visa people. An embassy guy came up to me within a few minutes and asked if he could help me. He took me out of line and said that as a US citizen that I didn't have to wait in line with the Thai people. I was taken inside the embassy and was interviewed within a few minutes. After explaining the situation (I was working in Thailand), I was told to leave my wife's passport there and come to pick it up the next day. The next day I picked up her passport complete with the visa. What ever happened that it has gone from that kind of excellent service to the point that no one will talk to you?

[TokyoT]

I retired US Army in 1992 after 24 years service, 3 wars, and my pension is a grand total of $22,000 a year before taxes, so if the OP only has his Military retirement, he is considered below poverty level. He & she can live quite comfortably in Thailand on that, they'd have to go on welfare and State Aid to survive anywhere in the US................

According to the 2008 numbers used by immigration to qualify as being 125% above the poverty line for a couple the amount would be $17,500 USD.

So even with just the military pension if the guy did have at least 25 years of service and had obtained at least an E-5 pay grade (would be near impossible to not obtain over an E-5 in 25 years unless one got in some serious trouble late in their career and suffer a significant drop in pay grade). He would be making enough (over $17,500) to financially qualify to bring his spouse.

[dumspero]

And a more reasonable rank of E8 after 24 years would put him closer to $30,000 a year with no need for medical insurance, a major expense to many retirees.

[jstumbo]

Actually I have also gone that route and all I get are canned messages telling me how valuable my opinion is. I think politicians and the embassy people have the same computer programmers. I don't know of any US government agency that has real live people answering email. It only amounts to more frustration. I have given up and refuse to jump through their silly hoops for what should be a simple thing.

Call their office on the phone. I had some problems with my wife's K1 Visa application getting lost and called my congress members staff and they got it figured out and back to me quickly.

[PeaceBlondie]

A little advice based on thirty years government service: any decent bureaucrat or trouble shooter or process engineer has their customized list of questions that they want answered quickly, to the point, without long explanations. Before you call, write out a very short list of the main points, such as I am American citizen married to Thai citizen, we just want to get a one-year or ten-year visa; your income levels, her brief background; etc. Give the trouble shooter the info they want, and take it from there (but represent your position, while understanding theirs). If their answers are that they cannot help you, ask where else you can call, your appeal rights, etc.

[a2396]

$22k before taxes is ridiculous for 24 yrs of service. Would that be E6, E7, or E8? Which branch? At least you get some medical benefits too, but it is shameful how low that pension amount is....

I have never worked for a company that gives me a pension. Only 401Ks, where I contribute. And no one is going to give me any money when I retire, probably wont even have Social Security by that time. Why should a company be responsible for me after I quit working for them. I work, they pay me. We both get something. Why should they pay me even when I have stopped working? Planning and saving for my retirement is my responsibility, not the company I work for. That is why many large corporations in the US are in financial trouble because they have too many responsibilities for people that no longer work for the company.

I have two Uncles that both retired from the Marines. They joined when they were 18, finished when they were around my age. At my age, they were collecting a pension and a paycheck from their new jobs.

So, maybe they should not get any military pension either. After all, they aren't in the Marines any more. So, why not do away with everyones retirement & get rid of all the social welfare programs, as well & medicare & the dam_n school taxes are to high also. Make them all pay tuition. If they can't afford it.Tough. Every man. woman & child for themselves. Sounds like the good old days from the 18th century or before. You're welcome to such a society.

[klikster]

So, maybe they should not get any military pension either. After all, they aren't in the Marines any more. So, why not do away with everyones retirement & get rid of all the social welfare programs, as well & medicare & the dam_n school taxes are to high also. Make them all pay tuition. If they can't afford it.Tough. Every man. woman & child for themselves. Sounds like the good old days from the 18th century or before. You're welcome to such a society.

You have it all figured out, don't you?

Then the next step would be to put that on recruiting posters. And regressing into the stone age would be a wonderful experience in total self reliance for your children .. as some 'power' on the globe waltzes in to take over ..

.. then *they* can levy taxes .. oops?

[a2396]

So, maybe they should not get any military pension either. After all, they aren't in the Marines any more. So, why not do away with everyones retirement & get rid of all the social welfare programs, as well & medicare & the dam_n school taxes are to high also. Make them all pay tuition. If they can't afford it.Tough. Every man. woman & child for themselves. Sounds like the good old days from the 18th century or before. You're welcome to such a society.

You have it all figured out, don't you?

Then the next step would be to put that on recruiting posters. And regressing into the stone age would be a wonderful experience in total self reliance for your children .. as some 'power' on the globe waltzes in to take over ..

.. then *they* can levy taxes .. oops?

Tell this to the poster I was replying to, not me. My comments were in response to his idiotic remarks.

[nohave]

The story by the OP is nothing in comaprison to the stories I heard from Dutch nationals who tried unsuccessfully to obtain their tilak a visa at the most notorious of all Embassies in Bangkok: the Embassy of the Netherlands.

Edited April 29, 2008 by nohave

[klikster]

So, maybe they should not get any military pension either. After all, they aren't in the Marines any more. So, why not do away with everyones retirement & get rid of all the social welfare programs, as well & medicare & the dam_n school taxes are to high also. Make them all pay tuition. If they can't afford it.Tough. Every man. woman & child for themselves. Sounds like the good old days from the 18th century or before. You're welcome to such a society.

You have it all figured out, don't you?

Then the next step would be to put that on recruiting posters. And regressing into the stone age would be a wonderful experience in total self reliance for your children .. as some 'power' on the globe waltzes in to take over ..

.. then *they* can levy taxes .. oops?

Tell this to the poster I was replying to, not me. My comments were in response to his idiotic remarks.

Looks like I misread your post. Apologies.