Farang Pretend-police

[Ajarn]

Even the regular Thai police buy own uniforms even their own guns,

You mean with money stolen from regular people.Lets tell the truth here.

I'd say no, that they used their own money, because an officer needs a gun and a uniform to be able to work

[Ajarn]

As a current Tourist Police Volunter I am a little surprised at the nastiness of my fellow boarders toward those TPV that give back to the community they live in by voluntering there time. We receive no payment for our time nor do we receeive any perks such as work permits etc (we do not require a work permit by the way)

Why do you not require work permits?

Every foreigner working in Thailand, paid or volunteer, requires a work permit or a work permit exemption letter granted by the Labour Ministry. There are no exceptions.

Another example of a Thai 'Law' that doesn't always get enforced...

[Maejo Man]

Every foreigner working in Thailand, paid or volunteer, requires a work permit or a work permit exemption letter granted by the Labour Ministry. There are no exceptions.

SRJ.....An exemption was applied for, and granted to Pol. Lt. Col Nutthawut Chotikanchanawat Chief Inspector of the Tourist Police Division for Chiangmai Province, for the operation of his volunteer scheme in late 2004. Thus exempting volunteers.

[JimsKnight]

Then the Pattaya police began using the volunteers as undercover agents. No training. No assistance. No back-up. No authority.

In your well written post, I noticed the part above. I believe in the west such people are referred to as snitches or informants. A sad but important part of policing. Something rather incongruous though using an informant when the intent of the program was as you described. I'd therefore be rather leery of such people and steer clear of the TP, rather than approaching if I had a problem.

I partly agree, the power trip dudes and bad cops are not a good thing. Not so sure I agree on undercover folk being snitches and informants per sa.

But if farang are sticking their neck out by helping bust up a paedo/trafficking ring (where thais could not get inside) then I think the term snitch or informant is a bit lop-sided and such a thing should be welcomed.

Looking at the bigger picture on the whole TPV:

Farangs have been coming to LOS for many years now and I think it's part of the natural state of things for us to be slightly more involved in thai affairs.

Afterall, most of us on this forum are expats, yet we don't have a single unified club or recognised body.

If the powers that be see 'Ahh look at how the farang are helping our police force in assistance and other ways.' It could go a long way to being recognised more by the authorities as being less of a tourist cum interloper to something approaching expat status.

Something to think on there...

[Ulysses G.]

Even the regular Thai police buy own uniforms even their own guns,

They are not unpaid volunteers.

[sriracha john]

Why do you not require work permits?

Every foreigner working in Thailand, paid or volunteer, requires a work permit or a work permit exemption letter granted by the Labour Ministry. There are no exceptions.

You are indeed correct however in a meeting between the TPD and the immigration department TPDV were not required to have a work permit, one of the requirements to become a TPDV is a O or B visa I had a work permit before but even then it specifys specifically the company you work for so if we did require a work permit it would have to be requested by the TPD to the immigration department.

The thing is...it is NOT Immigration that is responsible for work permits, it's the Labour Ministry. Thus, the Immigration Police or Tourist Police or any other Police are NOT in a legal position to say you are exempt from the requirement. If indeed, everything is on the up and up in this regard, it would seem blatantly obvious that it should be no big deal for the Police to request this work permit exemption letter from the Labor Ministry and then with that, you would be legal. It seems so simple and yet so patently necessary.... but yet, it's never been done. Why? Why has this never been done with any Foreign Volunteer Police unit in the entire country?

We've been around and around with this issue for several years in the Pattaya version of this outfit.

Additionally, in regards to volunteering in general and work permits, I've been involved in threads on this for nearly 4 years....

Here's a sampling...

Working without a work permit is illegal in Thailand. Wake-up before you end-up in the Immigration Detention Center

However you cut it, work is work, including voluntary work.

Thanks for your responses.

What happens if you get caught? Fine / deportation / prison / blacklisted for return to thailand?

If you get caught you may well have all four you mention thrown at you

I believe the prison term can be up to 3 years for the offense.

The penalty for working without a valid work permit in Thailand is basically the same as for overstay:

Jail, fine, deportation and possibly blacklisted from entering the Kingdom again. Read this info: http://www.thaivisa.com/303.0.html

I repeat, there are NO exceptions. All foreigners need a valid work permit. About 200 western foreigners per year are deported for illegal work. (Plus some 50,000++ migrant illegal workers from Burma, Cambodia, Laos etc., but that's another story...)

My memory served me correctly... Three years it is...

From the Phukette Gazette:

Tsunami volunteers warned: get work permits

PHUKET: Foreign volunteers assisting in tsunami-related charity work are required to hold work permits, regardless of whether they are being paid for their efforts or not.

Sayan Chuaiyjan, Head of the Phuket Provincial Employment Service Office [ESO], told the Gazette yesterday that there could be no exceptions and that his office would begin to enforce the regulations soon.

“There can be no exceptions. Work is work, even if it is for charity,” he said.

He pointed out that any foreigner caught working with out a work permit is liable to hefty punishment.

“If our officers, police officers or immigration police learn [of foreign volunteers] who don’t have work permits, the maximum penalty is three years in jail, a 30,000 baht fine [or both],” he warned.

and then... along come the Police volunteers... and they wonder why they catch flack for not complying?

Edited May 9, 2008 by sriracha john

[colonelsing]

Apparently as some people have pointed out in this forum there are people who cannot comprehend that someone would do anything for anybody else unless they were paid or had some mental disorder.I feel sorry for the people who think this way.First of all,if someone is on a power trip or is a wannabee cop,why volunteer for a job with no arrest powers and no gun.I have not seen any of these volunteers with batons but if they carry them so what.They deserve to have some protection.

Also Thailand is heavily into both volunteering and uniforms.So what is the problem?I happen to know Thai people who have told me they have alot of respect for farang police volunteers.And as far as wearing uniforms,the first person someone looks for when they are in trouble is a uniformed cop.

I have been in downtown Chiang Mai many times and I find it amusing that some drunken farang grabbing some Thai girls butt thinks they ares well respected by the Thai people while the farang volunteer policeman is not.

[sriracha john]

Every foreigner working in Thailand, paid or volunteer, requires a work permit or a work permit exemption letter granted by the Labour Ministry. There are no exceptions.

SRJ.....An exemption was applied for, and granted to Pol. Lt. Col Nutthawut Chotikanchanawat Chief Inspector of the Tourist Police Division for Chiangmai Province, for the operation of his volunteer scheme in late 2004. Thus exempting volunteers.

With respect... and as per the above post, I don't believe he's in a position to grant such exemption.

but....It's certainly not the first time a government official has over-stepped his legal authority.

However, as per above, the Labor Ministry IS in a position to grant such exemption. But, to the best of my knowledge and experience on the topic, that has never been done.

I, for one, wonder about that. It certainly does wash the real police hand's of any responsibility in the case of some untoward event involving one of these foreigners. It also certainly makes it easier for the real police to disavow any obligation to them if they haven't acted as "sponsors" for this work permit exemption letter.

*edit...

Just as an after thought, does this letter from the Police still exist? Is it possible for the the forum members who are police volunteers to see this letter and provide a scanned copy of it to this thread?

I'd be interested to see how it's worded and to the extent of its coverage, any limitations, and its longevity.

I look forward to hopefully a positive response on this from FarangCravings

Edited May 9, 2008 by sriracha john

[toptuan]

The only disrespect we receive is from people like you and those who have posted derogatory comments on this thread , you are very wrong about the local thai community I was very surprised when I first joined at how much respect we get from the local thai community.

In Thailand, as in Mexico, the police ARE the criminals--more akin to the Mafia. As you get closer to Thai people and as they start confiding in you, you'll discover the deep-seated fear and mistrust of the national police force because of the law-be-damned attitudes they carry. I wouldn't want to be associated with the organization for these reasons. I speak for myself and every farang/Thai person I know.

If Chiang Mai is an exception, you're d_mned lucky.

HUNT:

Speak for yourself. I've been here an appreciable lenghth of time and I certainly wouldn't dis-respect them. Good luck and a polite thank-you would be more my feelings. As for the Thais, let them speak for themselves too. I'd be very surprised if they would dis-respect them. They're too polite for that, I imagine.

I dare say you haven't gotten close enough to many Thais to hear what they really think about this issue. I speak for many Thais who've confided in me, but yes, would be too polite or publicly patriotic to post such a criticism on this public board.

[Ajarn]

The only disrespect we receive is from people like you and those who have posted derogatory comments on this thread , you are very wrong about the local thai community I was very surprised when I first joined at how much respect we get from the local thai community.

In Thailand, as in Mexico, the police ARE the criminals--more akin to the Mafia. As you get closer to Thai people and as they start confiding in you, you'll discover the deep-seated fear and mistrust of the national police force because of the law-be-damned attitudes they carry. I wouldn't want to be associated with the organization for these reasons. I speak for myself and every farang/Thai person I know.

If Chiang Mai is an exception, you're d_mned lucky.

HUNT:

Speak for yourself. I've been here an appreciable lenghth of time and I certainly wouldn't dis-respect them. Good luck and a polite thank-you would be more my feelings. As for the Thais, let them speak for themselves too. I'd be very surprised if they would dis-respect them. They're too polite for that, I imagine.

I dare say you haven't gotten close enough to many Thais to hear what they really think about this issue. I speak for many Thais who've confided in me, but yes, would be too polite or publicly patriotic to post such a criticism on this public board.

Edited May 9, 2008 by Ajarn

[colonelsing]

Does anyone really believe that the Thai police would recruit these guys to help them and to help Thailand and then put them in jail for not having a work permit? The whole idea of work permits is to prevent foreigners from taking jobs from natives. These people are recruited BECAUSE THEY ARE FOREIGNERS,doing something of no real benefit to themselves but for the benefit of Thailand.

As far as corruption goes there is corruption everywhere and I have never personally had a problem with any Thai police or witnessed any of this corruption.I think also the tourist police,which deals with tourists,may not suffer the same stigma as attached to regular police.

And finally,for those people who think there is no benefit to this volunteer job,I can imagine numerous scenarios where having a good working relationship and some official identification from the Royal Thai police might be a very valuable thing.

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

.

I dare say you haven't gotten close enough to many Thais to hear what they really think about this issue. I speak for many Thais who've confided in me, but yes, would be too polite or publicly patriotic to post such a criticism on this public board.

I have heard from a few Thais who work on Loy Kroh road and they say they don't like the falang police at all. I tried to probe a little but my Thai language is weak. I guess its the idea of Thai's losing control or something of the commerce battlefield. Loy Kroh merchants benefit from visitor ignorance and perhaps they see these information officers upsetting that advantage.

[Ajarn]

Does anyone really believe that the Thai police would recruit these guys to help them and to help Thailand and then put them in jail for not having a work permit? The whole idea of work permits is to prevent foreigners from taking jobs from natives. These people are recruited BECAUSE THEY ARE FOREIGNERS,doing something of no real benefit to themselves but for the benefit of Thailand. Thailand has some great laws, but due to many reasons, are rarley if ever enforced. Everything is allegedly responsive to the need, either internal within the PD. or external to the PD

As far as corruption goes there is corruption everywhere and I have never personally had a problem with any Thai police or witnessed any of this corruption.I think also the tourist police,which deals with tourists,may not suffer the same stigma as attached to regular police. I think the Tourist Police just has better P.R.. They are always checked when farangs are in Local Police custody, and when they are interested, act as 'middle men' in any financial negotiations

And finally,for those people who think there is no benefit to this volunteer job,I can imagine numerous scenarios where having a good working relationship and some official identification from the Royal Thai police might be a very valuable thing.

In your dream world, anything is possible.

[toptuan]

Letter in Today's (May 9) Bangkok Post. One of the hundreds of stories I've read or heard about since living in Thailand. Is THIS the organization our farang volunteers are proud to be working with??

There is a plague in Thai society and it is called corruption. Now I know this is no big surprise, but it is becoming more and more bold. Yesterday my friend was stopped by a policeman while just coming onto the expressway at Sukhumvit Soi 1. Having done nothing wrong (also not surprising) my friend knew it would probably cost him a bribe of about 100-200 baht.

When the policeman walked up to the window, my friend realised this was the same policeman that had pulled him over previously (also for no reason). The first time the policeman said he merged onto the expressway too quickly. This time he merged too slowly. The policeman said he wanted 1,600 baht because he wanted to go buy a bottle of Johnny Walker whiskey.

My friend refused. He then searched the car, taking his time looking through my friend's possessions. He saw a bottle of Rainex from America, started asking if it was a good product, and wanted that. He wanted my friend to give him a carton of cigarettes. In the end, and 500 baht poorer, my friend was able to drive away.

I understand that corruption is a deep-rooted problem in this country, but tell me, does it have to be so bold?

TIRED OF CORRUPTION

-----------

[Ajarn]

Letter in Today's (May 9) Bangkok Post. One of the hundreds of stories I've read or heard about since living in Thailand. Is THIS the organization our farang volunteers are proud to be working with??

There is a plague in Thai society and it is called corruption. Now I know this is no big surprise, but it is becoming more and more bold. Yesterday my friend was stopped by a policeman while just coming onto the expressway at Sukhumvit Soi 1. Having done nothing wrong (also not surprising) my friend knew it would probably cost him a bribe of about 100-200 baht.

When the policeman walked up to the window, my friend realised this was the same policeman that had pulled him over previously (also for no reason). The first time the policeman said he merged onto the expressway too quickly. This time he merged too slowly. The policeman said he wanted 1,600 baht because he wanted to go buy a bottle of Johnny Walker whiskey.

My friend refused. He then searched the car, taking his time looking through my friend's possessions. He saw a bottle of Rainex from America, started asking if it was a good product, and wanted that. He wanted my friend to give him a carton of cigarettes. In the end, and 500 baht poorer, my friend was able to drive away.

I understand that corruption is a deep-rooted problem in this country, but tell me, does it have to be so bold?

TIRED OF CORRUPTION

-----------

Shit Happens Dude

[toptuan]

Shit Happens Dude

...and when shit shows a discernible, predictable pattern, some have the god-given brains not to voluntarily step in it.

[uptheos]

Maybe we should make it reciprocal with our home countries Do we have uniforms that small?

[lannarebirth]

I don't understand why the volunteers are being tarred by their affiliation with the RTP. Presumably they joined these volunteer ranks to help tourists not the police. If volunteers were allowed access to Burma to help the victims of the devastation there, would you deride them also, as being in bed with the junta?

[toptuan]

I don't understand why the volunteers are being tarred by their affiliation with the RTP. Presumably they joined these volunteer ranks to help tourists not the police. If volunteers were allowed access to Burma to help the victims of the devastation there, would you deride them also, as being in bed with the junta?

If they had to wear uniforms identifying themselves as agents and representatives of the junta....YES.

Edited May 9, 2008 by toptuan

[Ajarn]

Shit Happens Dude

...and when shit shows a discernible, predictable pattern, some have the god-given brains not to voluntarily step in it.

I think you can hope for that here, but nothing is ever guaranteed here, either..

[lannarebirth]

I don't understand why the volunteers are being tarred by their affiliation with the RTP. Presumably they joined these volunteer ranks to help tourists not the police. If volunteers were allowed access to Burma to help the victims of the devastation there, would you deride them also, as being in bed with the junta?

If they had to wear uniforms identifying themselves as agents and representatives of the junta....YES.

Well, I guess your ego's bigger than mine.

[toptuan]

I don't understand why the volunteers are being tarred by their affiliation with the RTP. Presumably they joined these volunteer ranks to help tourists not the police. If volunteers were allowed access to Burma to help the victims of the devastation there, would you deride them also, as being in bed with the junta?

If they had to wear uniforms identifying themselves as agents and representatives of the junta....YES.

Well, I guess your ego's bigger than mine.

Not a matter of ego. Matter of principle.

[uptheos]

What's wrong with a Yellow T shirt and an ID badge. This country has enough uniforms.

[uptheos]

After all they are not policemen - they are lollipop men.

[sparrow]

What a great post by FolkGuitar..

So what to do with the remaining ones then who are in it for the power trip? Anyone ever get hassled by them?

I was once sat in a friends bar (an up standing establishment never involved in any thing dodgey of course) and this farang guy came in and asked for weed who was quite blatantly plainclothes, you could see it plainly by his manner, dress and approach. What kind of karma is this going to get if he succeded in his misplaced mission to put some hippy in the hilton, or whatever the CM equivillent is? This friend wasn't invloved in anything but probably fitted a certain steriotype. What bussiness do these people have trying to mess with peoples lives when its not even their laws or country?!?!

If they want to play police should send them to Yala or Patanni

The polo shirted tourist helpers would be good though.

[sparrow]

perhapse just parranoia?

to the guy who is actually on the force now- have you ever been asked or know anyone whos does undercover work? guess you wouldn't say to the positive if you did though eh, give the game away an all.

I don't think its a foriengers place to get involved in law and order of another nation. Its commendable that you may be willing to put yourselves in harms way to break up a bar fight and send people on their way so the local bobbys don't get involved an falang in more trouble but ultimately its not your country, local police should deal with such things. Act as an information point not a police man.

[sparrow]

If you want to help the community by volunteering your time i'm sure thier are many more worthwhile things to do than ponse about walking street telling tourists where they can take a piss!!! I'm certain a lot of why some one would do this is for the feeling of self importance. Reckon these types are the same types as back west who love to act the big man in little cercumstances. The good police are those out catching killers, rapists etc, this all just seems petty and self ego serving, like the guy who pulls you over for doing 64 in a 60 or searching you for no other reason that you've been stood in the same place for too long "loitering", its because every ones had run ins with these types that there's so much animosity towards these people who are pretend police. I've talked them before and they seem ok but its that same mental link with previous experience that says somewhere under that brief chat resides a right <deleted>*r.

Saying that a mate back London is normal plod and is quality, does it coz its pretty dam_n good pay, but these guys do it for free! Normally the small town police are the worsest coz they've got bugger all to do. When i was at college they used to role round the car park in their squad cars and send plain clothes through the smoking area. All that tax money being spent on trying to nick a few kids blazing a joint between lessons, some people got no place to sleep, hospitals closing, schools with not enough teachers, its sickinning! what kind of people are they too? think its doing a good thing, get some kid thrown out of school and screw up thier education and increase the chances of producing another dissaffected criminal, stupid. Got priorities all upside down. The biggest effects on crime are education, availabillity of employment and access to birth control.

wandered slighty off topic.....

bbq bobby, what you sayin to these people insulting your office? "come find me at the party and then we can step out side and settle this like men"? real upstanding citizen you sound like. just shows us exactly what kind of person you are. They can say thier view, i'll say mine and you can say yours, whats your problem? if your certain what your doing is totaly selfless and great for the community what you like this for? You should be content and happy to do a good thing and dismiss such comments as ignorrant. some one touch a flicker of truth you may not want to admit to yourself?

[FolkGuitar]

What's wrong with a Yellow T shirt and an ID badge. This country has enough uniforms.

That's right!

Just who do these Thais think they are? WE'RE here now! They should be made to change several hundred years of their culture because WE don't like it, and everyone knows THAT what we think is really correct! While we're at it, let's change these ridiculous holidays, and maybe the government. Our ways are much better. Everyone knows that. After all, our countries are soooo much better which is probably why we live here now....

Oh... wait a minute..... Maybe I need to rethink this.

Oops! Call for the 'Wrong Word Police.' I shouldn't have said 're-think.' I should have said 'think.'

[FolkGuitar]

What a great post by FolkGuitar..

So what to do with the remaining ones then who are in it for the power trip? Anyone ever get hassled by them?

I was once sat in a friends bar (an up standing establishment never involved in any thing dodgey of course) and this farang guy came in and asked for weed who was quite blatantly plainclothes, you could see it plainly by his manner, dress and approach.

I know a guy who has a friend who....

The check is in the mail.

I'll respect you in the morning.

..... and the farmer took another load away.

As a writer, I do love the phrase 'blatantly plainclothes.' I guess it must have been the belted leather trench coat, fedora pulled down low over his eyes, cigarette dangling from his lips, but spit shinned wing tip shoes.

I apologize to all the regulars. I know I shouldn't respond to a post like this, but this one was just one toke over the line. Sweet Jesus.....

[dr_Pat_Pong]

What a great post by FolkGuitar..

So what to do with the remaining ones then who are in it for the power trip? Anyone ever get hassled by them?

I was once sat in a friends bar (an up standing establishment never involved in any thing dodgey of course) and this farang guy came in and asked for weed who was quite blatantly plainclothes, you could see it plainly by his manner, dress and approach.

I know a guy who has a friend who....

The check is in the mail.

I'll respect you in the morning.

..... and the farmer took another load away.

As a writer, I do love the phrase 'blatantly plainclothes.' I guess it must have been the belted leather trench coat, fedora pulled down low over his eyes, cigarette dangling from his lips, but spit shinned wing tip shoes.

I apologize to all the regulars. I know I shouldn't respond to a post like this, but this one was just one toke over the line. Sweet Jesus.....