Discrimination And The Military

[PeaceBlondie]

Its not about "Transvestites don't make good soldiers, because men are men" Its not about the soldier it's about the UNIT. If I where a general in charge of these sort of things, I would have to ask myself, do I try and change the natural tendencies of 99% of my troops that for what ever irrelevant reason, to find trannies to be less of man then them, and there for untrustworthy and distracting? Or do I just drop that one percent and keep cohesiveness in the unit.

Open gayness in the military has never been a good thing, The Ottoman empire found that out the hard way when mid scale infighting broke out between officers over a who could screw some bath house boy who was good at pleasuring men.

Open gayness doesn't seem to be doing British or Israeli forces much harm.

cophen seems to be the first to answer my question about other military forces allowing openly gay soldiers. There are many more examples. Huey's absurd example is irrelevant, for nobody is trying to make the 90% or 95% straight soldiers to suddenly cross-dress like the malingering Corporal Klinger on M*A*S*H. The silly example from the Ottoman empire can be easily refuted as a bizzarre exception, overweighed by the Greek fighting forces who were gay and victorious in battle.

To the point, how does a military selection panel in Thailand determine between the various kinds of conscripted gay Thai men? Do they only discriminate against the worst caricature of the overwrought, high-voiced, overly theatric transvestite? As for the post-op transsexuals, they could be eliminated on physical (anatomical) grounds, not mental illness.

[PrBkkPr]

Hi Noticed many times that many TV members tend to associate transvestites and gays as one group. Please note that gays and transvestites are not the same and in most countries and even among the more affluent gays in Thailand, gays do not like being associated with transvestites. If you are a male and like females then you are straight, if you are male and like another male then you are gay......as for transvestites and people who go for them......I have no comments.

[the highlander]

Its not about "Transvestites don't make good soldiers, because men are men" Its not about the soldier it's about the UNIT. If I where a general in charge of these sort of things, I would have to ask myself, do I try and change the natural tendencies of 99% of my troops that for what ever irrelevant reason, to find trannies to be less of man then them, and there for untrustworthy and distracting? Or do I just drop that one percent and keep cohesiveness in the unit.

Open gayness in the military has never been a good thing, The Ottoman empire found that out the hard way when mid scale infighting broke out between officers over a who could screw some bath house boy who was good at pleasuring men.

Open gayness doesn't seem to be doing British or Israeli forces much harm.

cophen seems to be the first to answer my question about other military forces allowing openly gay soldiers. There are many more examples. Huey's absurd example is irrelevant, for nobody is trying to make the 90% or 95% straight soldiers to suddenly cross-dress like the malingering Corporal Klinger on M*A*S*H. The silly example from the Ottoman empire can be easily refuted as a bizzarre exception, overweighed by the Greek fighting forces who were gay and victorious in battle.

To the point, how does a military selection panel in Thailand determine between the various kinds of conscripted gay Thai men? Do they only discriminate against the worst caricature of the overwrought, high-voiced, overly theatric transvestite? As for the post-op transsexuals, they could be eliminated on physical (anatomical) grounds, not mental illness.

Maybe the Thais could do as the rest of the world does!!

Make them Submariners

[Misplaced]

I guess The United States policy of "don't ask don't tell" is superior policy

Every country in the world has the same basic issue with gays in the military. Personally, I think if you can/want to serve in the military, and if you are able to do so, than you should be able to join without prejudice. As long as you can count on them to stand behind you (no pundit intended) than I'm comfortable with it.

[endure]

But Gays do, and always have, served in the military. The only difference is whether they're allowed to be honest about it or whether they have to tell lies so as not to frighten the horses. What really makes me laugh is when all the rufty-tufty straight guys who are trained to kill before they blink and annihilate whole countries have a hissy fit at the thought that some gay bloke might accidentally catch a glimpse of their wiener in the showers

[Jai Dee]

What really makes me laugh is when all the rufty-tufty straight guys who are trained to kill before they blink and annihilate whole countries have a hissy fit at the thought that some gay bloke might accidentally catch a glimpse of their wiener in the showers

That made me spit my Jack Coke all over the telly... good one!!!

[Gravelrash]

Firstly gays in the military has always been and always will be regardless of the desires of generals. Recall a hard as nails Aussie fotbaler who came out of the closet, so that argument about not being tough enough is nonsense. Mind you, even as gays might admit, the raging queen type, even though unlikely to enlist anyway, may be out of his element?

Kateoys though, hmmm. Just can't see a bayonet charge by Thai troops in high heels and chest implants as likely to inject fear into any enemy, except perhaps a Muslim Kateoy splinter group.

Find the correct balance.

As to PC, it is true that in the west you can't advertise for who you actually wish to employ. It has to be open to one and all, with the person you actually want still probably getting the job and wasting everyone elses time. Except government of course who will always employ the most unsuitable to make quotas. I left PC or the merit of mediocrity behind, why would anyone want to bring it here? Doesn't this place have enough problems without adding to it?

[endure]

Kateoys though, hmmm. Just can't see a bayonet charge by Thai troops in high heels and chest implants as likely to inject fear into any enemy, except perhaps a Muslim Kateoy splinter group.

I don't know about that. A brigade of ladyboys would be a fairly scary sight.

[Johpa]

Kateoys though, hmmm. Just can't see a bayonet charge by Thai troops in high heels and chest implants as likely to inject fear into any enemy, except perhaps a Muslim Kateoy splinter group.

I don't know about that. A brigade of ladyboys would be a fairly scary sight.

We could dress them in kilts, and like the clansmen of yore they could line up and lift their kilts displaying their family jewels to show their contempt for the enemy all the while whooping and hollering. Certainly would add to the fog of war.

[PeaceBlondie]

I guess The United States policy of "don't ask don't tell" is superior policy

Every country in the world has the same basic issue with gays in the military. Personally, I think if you can/want to serve in the military, and if you are able to do so, than you should be able to join without prejudice. As long as you can count on them to stand behind you (no pundit intended) than I'm comfortable with it.

No, 'don't ask and don't tell is a failure, supported by insecure top sergeants and scared generals who are homophobic at heart, fearful men who would rather have their ranks partially filled by closeted gay men who are good soldiers, than to fail their enlistment quotas or face the reality that civilian managers face every day without overreacting like drama queens.

'Don't ask and don't tell' makes liars out of good men, so that the guy who gave me my first blow job in 1961 could retire as a lieutenant colonel. Twenty years of lying, and they put you on the retired shift.

No, not every country in the world has issues with gays in the military. Yes, gay men will stand beside or in front of the straight guys and protect them from enemy fire. Might even warm your bed on a cold winter's night.

[Ijustwannateach]

I think we're a bit off-topic here. The question is not about foreign gays in foreign military- or even about Thai gays in the Thai military- unlike many foreign militaries, it is my understanding there is nothing (even open admission) to STOP gays from being in the Thai military. It is the fact of being an active *TRANSVESTITE* or *TRANSEXUAL* that causes problems for entrance to the Thai military.

Furthermore, they are not simply barred from serving, but in the process of being barred- which is itself involuntary, as they are required to report for the lottery as citizens- are stigmatised with an unjustified psych evaluation by officers that I am sure do not have the medical right to make such an evaluation, which permanently brands them basically as crazy.

THAT is the discrimination being discussed here, and it has nothing to do either with homosexuality (in the strict sense) or with the right to serve.

I'd like to remind everyone that there is no open season on transvestites on Thaivisa, and inflammatory comments against them will be dealt with in the same manner as comments against other minorities.

[endure]

Returning to the OP I find it a bit strange that this hasn't yet been sorted out. There was quite a fuss about this in 2005 with 2 TV programmes devoted to it. (TV readers who are gay may remember it being mentioned on a popular gay blog). The military promised that they were going to change the wording on the discharge form. Seems it hasn't happened.

[Scott]

I've never understood how anyone who can face bullets, bombs and all the things that go with war, can be SO afraid and threatened by someone who simply wants their bag, bullets and belt to match!

[PeaceBlondie]

IJWT's reference back to the original post reminds me of the source: THE PATTAYA NEWS. I am no journalist, but isn't one or more of the Pattaya news sources only good for wrapping garbage? Anyway, even if this is reliable reporting, it quotes almost nobody. I do not wish to pee upon anybody, but the only attributed quote, which may not be accurate, comes from Piyapan, an apparent V conscriptee.

Of course, this does bring up the whole related questions about gays serving in the military. I know a couple of effeminate Thai gays who were drafted and served, but I do not know if they hid their preferences. Many of the gay Thais I have known were out of the closet as early as 9 years old, and have acquired social behaviors that almost any Thai can spot at two meters. My cardiologist had not walked out the door when my boyfriend gave me the sign that the good doctor was obviously a khatoey. Was he swinging a handbag, or a stethoscope?

[katana]

...Open gayness in the military has never been a good thing...

Spartan army...

[geriatrickid]

The job discrimination allowances that even mention one's complexion, just boggle me at times.

This happens in Thailand? They expressely ask for certain skin complexions?

Yes. I have seen adverts where only light skinned people need apply. (Have a look at the NokAir career section to see a more basic one, although no mention on skin tone.) Open the ads section of any Thai paper and you can usually find one.

[geriatrickid]

Thanks for that.

The issue for me was ok you don't want them, swell, just don't brand them as mentally unfit and destroy their futures. Give them an honourable pass by. They aren't the ones resisting and they are willing to serve. What the military stance is doing is removing any chance of leading a normal life (i.e. contributing to society, having a decent job etc.)

[mrtoad]

Returning to the OP I find it a bit strange that this hasn't yet been sorted out. There was quite a fuss about this in 2005 with 2 TV programmes devoted to it. (TV readers who are gay may remember it being mentioned on a popular gay blog). The military promised that they were going to change the wording on the discharge form. Seems it hasn't happened.

Didn't we here that time and again from the Junta. Full of promises and no action on all manner of things. I'm pretty certain that this issue was felt not to be to important to them, although as geriatrickid has said, it should be considering the potential damage it does to the future careers of those that are deemed not fit.