Unhungry Dog

[Slip]

I’m a bit concerned about my pooch and I’m hoping some of the experts on this board can offer some advice. He’s not eating properly. He’s a 9 month old pit-bull, the sweetest you’d ever hope to meet, if a bit boisterous. Here he is when we first got him.

He’s always had a bit of a strange relationship with food (for a dog anyway). He really isn’t bothered about it and never has been. For example, he is happy for another dog to eat his food, and will just wander off unconcernedly, even if the dog is plainly below him from a doggy society point of view.

When we first got him he was pretty sick with a blood parasite although after a few weeks and a stay in the vet he was OK. The times when he was sickest, perhaps unsurprisingly, he didn’t eat at all for days on end. Since he has recovered he seems almost scared of food. He sniffs anything he eats very carefully- I’m wondering if his (frozen) food might be going off in our icebox.

I’ve read all the highly informative food threads, and feel reasonably confident that I know what he should be eating if I only I can get him to eat it.

Anyway in the last week or so he has practically stopped eating- maybe about ¼ of everything. I have always wanted to give him a fairly controlled food regime, in so far as eating at a regular time, but now I often try to feed him by hand periodically as at least I know he eats that.

When we first got him he ate rice with, cooked egg or cooked liver. We switched to Royal Canine (sp?) and cooked liver, which he ate when encouraged. As he got older his appetite seemed to improve although his attitude was still pretty apathetic.

He seems pretty disinterested in raw chicken (with bones) and liver but loves to eat both cooked (along with pork ribs and other BBq’d (my) foods). I’m trying to feed him more meat and bones but conventional wisdom on the board seems to warn against cooking them, so that’s those out.

His standard diet up until he slashed his intake was Alpo mixer, with ‘Dr Dog’ frozen chicken carcass and liver (both micro-waved in water for gravy). Since then I’ve been trying to feed more raw meat and bones mixed with Alpo but reverting to the old feed occasionally in the hope of tempting him which doesn’t work. I bought some cheap(ish) stewing steak today and mixed (raw) with a little Dr Dog (Cooked) and alpo- he ignored it until I pilled out a couple of bits of the steak and hand fed him, then he picked out the steak, so I hand fed him some of the chicken carcass mince- he ate but lost interest when I wasn’t feeding him- the rest is still there now. I’m cooking now and he relished a little chunk of steak fed by hand.

We had a couple of huge beef bones, which our neighbour ‘kindly’ boiled without us asking, citing the risk of parasites. I’ve been watching tho’ and it doesn’t seem to have splintered. Before it was cooked he was very interested, after still pretty keen. The same neighbour sometimes feeds him in the early morning on rice and cooked liver which they tell me he always eats, but I don’t know how often they give him this food.

He eats most things I feed him by hand, but always sniffs very carefully first. (Have I been inadvertently feeding him off food)?

Anyway, I’m completely confused, and sorry to have gone on so long, but can any wise soul shed any light on my dog’s bizarre behaviour

I’m taking him to the vet next week as I think his general reluctance is not the same as his latest lack of appetite, but I’d still appreciate some advice.

[sbk]

Well, it sounds like you need to ask your neighbor to stop feeding your dog. It could be your dog is eating his fill over there.

There could be other medical reasons, which is what I was thinking until you wrote that your neighbor is feeding your dog.

[Slip]

Thanks for your reply SBK, but I think this is a very small amount very early in the morning. He doesn't then eat until 5 pm so I would expect him to be hungry again anyway.

[bina]

1.weigh him. he should be gaining nicely if eating properly.( and should have gained from when he was last weighed, a good amount since pit bulls are stocky animals)

2. how does he look? dry fur? bones sticking out? weak? want to play, or not? lethargic? does he want to eat 'junk food' that u eat (icecream etc) no problem? or is any food a problem (not just meat and dog food but people food).

3.how is his pee and poo? yes, that means u actually have to look at the stuff: is it wet, dry, small round balls, normal dog poo, dark, light?

4.is he peeing (i.e. is he drinking enough?) ... his pee should be yellow/clear... dark urine should be checked.

5.how is his breath? smelly? get teeth/gums checked... possiblely thoat also (bones or stuff scratched and caused infection hence reluctance to eat ...

6.worming? when was he last wormed? parasites cause appetite loss...

7.is he sneaking out and grazing in greener pastures therefore not hungry for his own food??

8.what blood parasite did he have and are u 100% sure its cured?? tick fever and other things come to mind...

obviously a blood test would be a good thing (anemia for one thing; liver problems that make an animal naeuseous but not enough to cause vomiting--some of the baddies i can think of)... worse comes to worse u find out it is behavioural and then u start all over again...

any fever? pitbulls are stoic so any problem might not be noticed until its a big problem for them.

bina

israel

[Royale]

I'm a bit concerned about my pooch and I'm hoping some of the experts on this board can offer some advice. He's not eating properly. He's a 9 month old pit-bull, the sweetest you'd ever hope to meet, if a bit boisterous. Here he is when we first got him.

He's always had a bit of a strange relationship with food (for a dog anyway). He really isn't bothered about it and never has been. For example, he is happy for another dog to eat his food, and will just wander off unconcernedly, even if the dog is plainly below him from a doggy society point of view.

When we first got him he was pretty sick with a blood parasite although after a few weeks and a stay in the vet he was OK. The times when he was sickest, perhaps unsurprisingly, he didn't eat at all for days on end. Since he has recovered he seems almost scared of food. He sniffs anything he eats very carefully- I'm wondering if his (frozen) food might be going off in our icebox.

I've read all the highly informative food threads, and feel reasonably confident that I know what he should be eating if I only I can get him to eat it.

Anyway in the last week or so he has practically stopped eating- maybe about ¼ of everything. I have always wanted to give him a fairly controlled food regime, in so far as eating at a regular time, but now I often try to feed him by hand periodically as at least I know he eats that.

When we first got him he ate rice with, cooked egg or cooked liver. We switched to Royal Canine (sp?) and cooked liver, which he ate when encouraged. As he got older his appetite seemed to improve although his attitude was still pretty apathetic.

He seems pretty disinterested in raw chicken (with bones) and liver but loves to eat both cooked (along with pork ribs and other BBq'd (my) foods). I'm trying to feed him more meat and bones but conventional wisdom on the board seems to warn against cooking them, so that's those out.

His standard diet up until he slashed his intake was Alpo mixer, with 'Dr Dog' frozen chicken carcass and liver (both micro-waved in water for gravy). Since then I've been trying to feed more raw meat and bones mixed with Alpo but reverting to the old feed occasionally in the hope of tempting him which doesn't work. I bought some cheap(ish) stewing steak today and mixed (raw) with a little Dr Dog (Cooked) and alpo- he ignored it until I pilled out a couple of bits of the steak and hand fed him, then he picked out the steak, so I hand fed him some of the chicken carcass mince- he ate but lost interest when I wasn't feeding him- the rest is still there now. I'm cooking now and he relished a little chunk of steak fed by hand.

We had a couple of huge beef bones, which our neighbour 'kindly' boiled without us asking, citing the risk of parasites. I've been watching tho' and it doesn't seem to have splintered. Before it was cooked he was very interested, after still pretty keen. The same neighbour sometimes feeds him in the early morning on rice and cooked liver which they tell me he always eats, but I don't know how often they give him this food.

He eats most things I feed him by hand, but always sniffs very carefully first. (Have I been inadvertently feeding him off food)?

Anyway, I'm completely confused, and sorry to have gone on so long, but can any wise soul shed any light on my dog's bizarre behaviour

I'm taking him to the vet next week as I think his general reluctance is not the same as his latest lack of appetite, but I'd still appreciate some advice.

You mention a blood parasite, have you had his blood checked again, was he totally cured that time?

I"d get it checked if i were you, could be ehrlichiosis (tick fever)

[lazeeboy]

take the dog to the vets and tell him the problem ,he will advise or cure in no time,if it were a child you wouldnt hesitate in taking the child to the doctors ,cost is small in thailand

[Cuban]

You question if you have been giving 'off' food, unlikely to put off all but the fussist eaters, I wonder if the clean food you are giving it too hygenic - not smelly enough to stimulate him.

We have been having raw mackrel here lately, the dogs adore it - chopped up finely, and yes that includes fins, bones, gills and head et al. I've mixed it into both rice and dry also semi soaked bog biscuits.

Are the dog's teeth / gums ok? Does it hurt to eat?

Does he walk, run, play?

Will he eat soups - one of mine suffered a bad day two months ago and only ate a watery rice soup of egg and mashed chicken. (He suffered a muzzle bite from his brother and was avoiding eating but could drink/lap it up.)

A few (5) seconds in boiling water for eggs - effectively enough to kill salmonella bacteria. Probably wise for all eggs in the house? Mine like raw eggs - they are allowed one or two a week, and yes they eat the shell too.

Dogs in the wild will fast to elliminate food posioning etc, same as a human that is off there food after an illness. How long has he been like this, I assume the blood problem is long in the past.

One other dog I am aware of within the 'family' with an eating problem is a small would-be poodle look alike that has been raised on sweetened milk since birth. It doesn't eat much meat - will not touch raw meat and has build ups of plaque on his teeth. The junk food question - is your dog getting 'treats' in the form of human sweets (biscuits) or junk food that puts him off dog friendly foods.

I am a raw food convert from well cooked meat & bones many years ago when I had other dogs, they survived 15 years on cooked chicken necks etc. But now raw is prefered.

[Slip]

Sorry so long to reply- had time to check responses but not type this am. Thanks for your replies Bina and Royale. There's a lot to think about there.

• He hasn't been weighed for a couple of months now but I can see that he is bulking up and filling out nicely. I'll get him weighed on Weds at the vet.
  

• His muscle tone and coat are good. About 3 months ago he had another infection that affected his skin and looked for all the world as if he was being eaten alive by mosquitoes- I was away at the time so my neighbour took him to his vet who treated this with antibiotics. This improved it but it returned about a month later. Another course of antibiotics seemed to shift it (At least the visible symptoms anyway). He's quite stocky and does not look overly thin. He loves to play and seems to have loads of energy. He spends most of his time chasing lizards, birds etc around the garden, however he does sleep quite a lot. He is interested in anything that humans are eating but we do not tend to let him eat junk food. Just about anything fed by hand he will eat.
  

[/size]

• Pee and poo look fine tho' I'm no expert. Pee is light in colour. He always has water on hand but often prefers to drink from the garden water plant bowls, unless the water in his bowl is chilled which he drinks at a frightening rate of knots. Poo looks normal to me, having checked this morning maybe a little lighter in colour than I would expect.
  

• I think he pees quite often but I haven't really monitored this, so will try to now.
  

• Breath seems no worse (or better) than other dogs I've had.
  

• I think he does need wormed. I usually mash meds into his food as it is nearly impossible to get him to swallow them otherwise and he sneaks off and spits them out. It occurred to me that this mixing of meds and food might put him off his food but he has not been on any medication for at least 6 weeks. I have a worming tablet for him but have not given it in his food as he hasn't been eating it. OK so that's going to be a force-feeding tonight then- just the pill on its own.
  

• He can't get out of our garden and the only food he can get comes from the neighbour when the dog visits at 8 am. (And anything he might catch in the garden I guess but that doesn't seem to happen often).
  

• I don't know the blood parasite name, only that the vet considered it very serious and quite possibly fatal. I will find out and ask the vet to re-check his blood on Wednesday.
  

No fever AFAIK, but I don't know how you would spot that in a dog. I will also specifically ask the vet about tick fever. He is treated with Frontline for ticks and has only ever had about 3-4 in his life. Presumably there is a link between ticks and tick-fever?

All in all he seems fit, vital and full of life, except he just isn't eating very much. Here's a couple more shots of him taken today to try to illustrate general physique (hunting lizards).

EDIT: Food in 30 mins- I'm going for raw steak with just a few Alpo biscuits. Wish us luck

Edited August 4, 2008 by Slip

[roygsd]

I’m a bit concerned about my pooch and I’m hoping some of the experts on this board can offer some advice. He’s not eating properly. He’s a 9 month old pit-bull, the sweetest you’d ever hope to meet, if a bit boisterous. Here he is when we first got him.

He’s always had a bit of a strange relationship with food (for a dog anyway). He really isn’t bothered about it and never has been. For example, he is happy for another dog to eat his food, and will just wander off unconcernedly, even if the dog is plainly below him from a doggy society point of view.

When we first got him he was pretty sick with a blood parasite although after a few weeks and a stay in the vet he was OK. The times when he was sickest, perhaps unsurprisingly, he didn’t eat at all for days on end. Since he has recovered he seems almost scared of food. He sniffs anything he eats very carefully- I’m wondering if his (frozen) food might be going off in our icebox.

I’ve read all the highly informative food threads, and feel reasonably confident that I know what he should be eating if I only I can get him to eat it.

Anyway in the last week or so he has practically stopped eating- maybe about ¼ of everything. I have always wanted to give him a fairly controlled food regime, in so far as eating at a regular time, but now I often try to feed him by hand periodically as at least I know he eats that.

When we first got him he ate rice with, cooked egg or cooked liver. We switched to Royal Canine (sp?) and cooked liver, which he ate when encouraged. As he got older his appetite seemed to improve although his attitude was still pretty apathetic.

He seems pretty disinterested in raw chicken (with bones) and liver but loves to eat both cooked (along with pork ribs and other BBq’d (my) foods). I’m trying to feed him more meat and bones but conventional wisdom on the board seems to warn against cooking them, so that’s those out.

His standard diet up until he slashed his intake was Alpo mixer, with ‘Dr Dog’ frozen chicken carcass and liver (both micro-waved in water for gravy). Since then I’ve been trying to feed more raw meat and bones mixed with Alpo but reverting to the old feed occasionally in the hope of tempting him which doesn’t work. I bought some cheap(ish) stewing steak today and mixed (raw) with a little Dr Dog (Cooked) and alpo- he ignored it until I pilled out a couple of bits of the steak and hand fed him, then he picked out the steak, so I hand fed him some of the chicken carcass mince- he ate but lost interest when I wasn’t feeding him- the rest is still there now. I’m cooking now and he relished a little chunk of steak fed by hand.

We had a couple of huge beef bones, which our neighbour ‘kindly’ boiled without us asking, citing the risk of parasites. I’ve been watching tho’ and it doesn’t seem to have splintered. Before it was cooked he was very interested, after still pretty keen. The same neighbour sometimes feeds him in the early morning on rice and cooked liver which they tell me he always eats, but I don’t know how often they give him this food.

He eats most things I feed him by hand, but always sniffs very carefully first. (Have I been inadvertently feeding him off food)?

Anyway, I’m completely confused, and sorry to have gone on so long, but can any wise soul shed any light on my dog’s bizarre behaviour

I’m taking him to the vet next week as I think his general reluctance is not the same as his latest lack of appetite, but I’d still appreciate some advice.

Hi,

Nice puppy you have there, dont forget he is still very much a puppy though.

How many times a day do you feed him now and what quantites?

How much exercise do you give the puppy and what sort of exercise is it? I hope you dont put him on a treadmill?

If you walk him twice a day for about a mile each time at the same time ( preferably not in midday heat!)he will soon get into a routine and look forward to those walks, with respect I think his loss of appitite could be partly down to boredom and depression.

I am sure there a a few dog training class's in the Pattaya area and regular visits for training will help him socialise with both other dogs and people and a well trained dog is a pleasure to be around.

Please dont feed him raw chicken, bird flu is not to be taken lightly, and the bones could stick in his throat.

If you feed him eggs make sure they are hard boiled and no more than two a week is sufficient.

You say you are feeding him frozen meat with Royal Canin ( presumably complete meal?), how long do you soak the complete dry food? Royal Canin can be a bit rich for some dogs.

If you want to use a complete dry dog food, use a coffee mug to measure it into his bowl and cover it in fresh cold water,

leave it to stand for about 5-7 minutes and you will then see that it has almost doubled in volume.

Consider this, if the food is not soaked for long enough and the dog eats it then it will likely double in volume inside the dogs stomach and that could lead to bloat/torsion.

Allways ensure there is plenty of FRESH water available for the puppy, particularly after feeding times.

Do not give the dog ice in his water.

I don' t know if you have an abbatoir nearby, but I would suggest you find one and ask them to sell you what we call Beef tripe which is actually the cows stomach, DO NOT BUY THE BLEACHED TRIPE, you need the stomach fresch form the cows carcass.

If you are squeemish then get them to flush the cows stomach(s) through THOROUGHLY severa/ times for obvious reasons!

If they have a mincer then get them to mince the cows stomach(s) for you and bag it into say half a pound bags for freezing.

It will be greenish in colour,dont buy the white tripe we get in the butchers shop in the uk a sthat has been bleached and all the gooness has been stripped from it in th process.

I would buy an old chest freezer ot keep the dogs food seperate for your own, tripe stinks to hel_l but it is full of goodness.

I know some people throw an entire ( clean) cows stomach to an adult GSD and its tough to chew but they love it.

Dont need to spend a fortune on the best beef but now and again a treat is fine.

I also suspect that being a puppy everone is giving him various leftovers and titbits, stop that now in order to estabish a routine and monitor his intake.

You might check his mouth/throat just incase he has scratched it on chicken bones or even got one stuck somewhere?

Sorry to ask but is he pooing regularly and are his motions consistent? Are they solid or watery?

Is it possible that the frozen chicken you have been feeding him on has not properly defrosted?

Also how long do you leave his food down for? Dont leave it down for too long otherwise he will eat when he wants to rather than when you want him to which could cause problems via flies etc, if you have to throw some of his food away for a few days dont worry about it, he will soon get the message.

I may be in error but I suspect the puppy is bored and needs more exercise, a ball can do wonders to stimulate a dogs appetite, more to the point to you will ikley benefit form the execrise as much as the puppy will!

No more than a mile please, he is still a growing baby, his bone growth is very important at this stage.

Do you evr feed the puppy vegatables? My 3 gsd's love raw carrots each day and raw cabbage leaves occasionally,( not too much though!

Liver can also upset a dogs stomach so cook a small bit and mix it in ocassionally.

If I were you I would stop feeding him on the complete meal for a few days and give him cooked rice and on the first day I would add about half a tin (185 gram) of tuna in sunflower oil for two meals and mix it well in.

I would stick to the rice for about a week and cook his meat and mix it in, a tiny bit of meat juice /gravy will help flavour it up for him.

I do hope you dont feed the dog any white bread, chocolate or grapes/raisins? Some do and these thngs are dangerous for dogs.

Sorry for the length of this response but ther are so many possibilities as to why he isnt eating but a healthy puppy doesnt stay off his food for more than a day usually.

The main secret to a happy dog is getting him into a regular routine, its not rocket science thankfully,

Love to hear how you and the puppy get on

All the best

Roy gsd

[Slip]

Guys, there's so many responses and questions here that I'm struggling to keep up. I really appreciate all your advice and some of it will take ages to implement/ see results, but I plan to keep the thread updated on his progress. Notwithstanding any political/ board netiquette issues I sincerely thank everyone who has contributed to ease my worries so far.

The story has become more weird (or not). Today I fed him about 250g of raw lowish grade beef (stewing) mixed with about 50g od the Alpo mixer (basically enough to stick on to the meat in occassional pieces if you mix it in a bowl) . He ignored it as usual, so I left it 15 mins then went to sit with him and fed by hand- He sniffed the hand offered food and refused it (which is a 1st), I offered a number of pieces which he ignored. Eventually one piece seemed to interest him (after offering to him and leaving him a number of times over several minutes), so I continued to feed by hand, which he ate happily, He would still not take food from the bowl. Then he took a piece and went away to hide it. He spent 10 minutes gathering up grass (with his nose not paws) to cover the illicit bit of meat. Then he pulled out a bit of bone he had (similarly) hidden earlier and proceeded to eat it in full view.

I have never eaten his food.honest.

RoyGsd your comments about exercise made me wince- he gets 2 walks a day 500m each if you're lucky, We walk round the block- there are no appropriate areas to exercise in my locality (and what we do drives the neighbours up the wall, I'm sure with their dogs going for it). I'm trying to think of a solution. Additinoally he eats a lot* of cooked liver- that's a staple for him. (or was), but no bread/ chocolate or owt like that ) Stools ....solid.

Thank you everyone who has taken the time to respond. There is so much information here I need to read it all again.

[F1fanatic]

I hate to admit it but all of my dogs have been fussy eaters. I excused my whippet on the basis that he's a pedigree and naturally thin, until I discovered that he eat any disgusting rubbish he found on the beach! I adopted a 'soi dog' who started off wolfing his food down but within a couple of months he too needed enticing to his food bowl! (I won't bore you with my last dog - a mongrel- who was just the same!)

Anyway, to cut a long story short, I've decided that it must be down to me spoiling them, trying desperately to give them just what they want.

Nowadays I've discovered that they both love chicken carcasses (yeuch - but I used to feed them chicken breast until they got bored!), which I cook for 20 mins or so, and mix with Pedigree Chum (which they don't like but I give 'cos I think it must have the vitamins, minerals etc. they must need), and biscuits. Tonight, I tried Hill's Prescription Diet, (with chicken carcass), and they eat it all! I substitue the chicken carcass with beef sometimes for variety.

My point is, unless the vet comes up with a good reason, there's probably not a problem other than that created by us.

[BigSnake]

Cute dog . Suggest a little visit to the Vet, couldn't hurt. Just to be safe. Looks like a wonderful animal, no harm in give it the best possible care.

[Nienke]

To me, from the pictures, your dog looks in top condition; not too fat not too thin, and with a beautiful shining coat.

Just gorgeous dog.

As others already suggest, I would take him to the vet for a full check-up. Although, from what you write it sounds very much that your dog has trained you.

[sbk]

Posts have been deleted. No bickering please. We all love our pets and only post out of concern for those who love theirs as well. Something to bear in mind when feeling grumpy

[bina]

hi,

he looks good; feeding animals is like feeding babies... in every country there is their own style, do's and dont's...

nienke is the expert on the raw food diets.... and raw chicken bones do not get stuck in dog's throats, cooked ones do get stuck...

eggs boiled for 5 seconds do not kill salomnella. as a matter of fact, salomanella survives pretty high temps and freezing temps.... but a good scrambled egg in oil once a week for coat can be good...

do not, NOT hand feed your dog... he isnt ill (weak, unable to eat physically, unable to swallow)... put the food in his bowl.

do NOT mix drugs in with his food in his bowl... if u have to give a pill, push it down his throat, OR give it in something like peanutbutter (most dogs cant resist peanutbutter ) or in a hot dog or, s our french vet says, in butter. u give a small piece, while he's chewing, u give him an other small piece with the pill in it, and then an other piece w/o pill... this is the 'bingo' method .... he never knows whether its worth it to eat the hot dog or not, so he does...

by mixing in with food, u make the food nasty tasting (bitter) and he associates food with nasty taste and secondly, u can never be sure that he got his meds, in which case he cant get better...

no need to moisten his dry food . i've noticed that the majority of dogs hate that. they like wet food from a can, and dry food,as dry food... and wet food spoils very very quickly in heat, and its not like natural meat spoiling . its nasty.

roy made some good points about routine, easily digested foods for a few days, and some foods are indeed too rich but that usually would cause stomach problems like vomiting. however, u mentioned itchy skin so that may be a point also.

worm him drontal forte and then two weeks later again , or ivomec oral twice, also two weeks apart...

the fact that he is burying his food and then eating it means that he has some stashes around, so is actually eating. just not when and what u give him.

roy, for twenty years people have been giving dry bread and raw meat to dogs, there is no problem with that. chocolate has chemicals that cause poisoning. raisins, not sure why poisonous same as grapes but have to be inquantity. onions are poisonous also. but dry bread or toast is fine.

these ae standard instuctions we give to new dog owners... of course we trim and change to fit the life style, wallet and breed of dog, age etc... but in general this is the info we give...

edit: roy, its raw bread dough , and maybe fresh bread, that causes problems, not so much poison as physical changes in the digestive system not unlike with goats or horses (fermenting and bloat, colic, obstruction, acidosis etc).

dry stale (not moldy) bread or toast, as a snack, is fine. dogs are sightly more omnivorous than felines, so cooked /raw veggies in small amounts is ok... cabbage may cause gas and is just roughage, but there are dogs that like cucubers, melons, bananas, pistachios, mangos.

bina

israel

ps. still wondering what the blood parasite was? bordella? erchilae (tick fever)?

Edited August 4, 2008 by bina

[roygsd]

hi,

he looks good; feeding animals is like feeding babies... in every country there is their own style, do's and dont's...

nienke is the expert on the raw food diets....

and raw chicken bones do not get stuck in dog's throats, cooked ones do get stuck...

***Absolute nonsense, a chicken bone is a chicken bone.

eggs boiled for 5 seconds do not kill salomnella. as a matter of fact, salomanella survives pretty high temps and freezing temps.... but a good scrambled egg in oil once a week for coat can be good...

***Agreed

do not, NOT hand feed your dog... he isnt ill (weak, unable to eat physically, unable to swallow)... put the food in his bowl.

***We dont know if he is ill or not at this point, but nothing wrong in hand feeding a puppy when he is off his food

do NOT mix drugs in with his food in his bowl...

***Reasonable,

if u have to give a pill, push it down his throat,

*** If you really want to distress the dog further that is !

How to loose the confidence of the dog in one easy lesson!

no need to moisten his dry food .

***Dangerous advice andout of step with accepted best practice and manufacturers advice,

i've noticed that the majority of dogs hate that. they like wet food from a can, and dry food,as dry food... and

wet food spoils very very quickly in heat,

***Then throw it away before it goes off like any responsible pet owner would do!

roy, for twenty years people have been giving dry bread and raw meat to dogs, there is no problem with that.

***Dont disagre about the raw meat ( other than to point out it goes off quicker) but some dogs fed with white bread in the uk during the food shortages of WW2 suffered from bouts of hysteria due to white bread, brown bread apparently does not cause this problem.

chocolate has chemicals that cause poisoning. raisins, not sure why poisonous same as grapes but have to be inquantity.

***Each dog's intolerance to certain foods is almost certainly going to be different from the next, some people die after just one peanut, others can eatthem by the kilo without any harm at all. We both appear to agree that rasins and grapes are poisonous but rather than risk the health of a dog by speculating as to what quantitly is safe for a dog to consume it is far better to avoid the risk entirely, it is a risk not worth taking in my view.

but dry bread or toast is fine.

***Brown bread/toast is fine.

these ae standard instuctions we give to new dog owners... of course we trim and change to fit the life style, wallet and breed of dog, age etc... but in general this is the info we give...

edit: roy, its raw bread dough , and maybe fresh bread, that causes problems, not so much poison as physical changes in the digestive system not unlike with goats or horses (fermenting and bloat, colic, obstruction, acidosis etc).

***Exactly! What you have discribed above is why you must ensure the complete dry dog food has been soaked in water before being consumed by the dog, only a complete idiot would feed a dog on uncoocked dough.

cooked /raw veggies in small amounts is ok...

***Personally I stick to green veg ans carrots, not sure that potatoes and some other veg do them much good.

cabbage may cause gas and is just roughage, but there are dogs that like cucubers, melons, bananas, pistachios, mangos.

bina

israel

ps. still wondering what the blood parasite was? bordella? erchilae (tick fever)?

See items marked *** above.

Roy gsd

Edited August 4, 2008 by roygsd

[Royale]

Posts have been deleted. No bickering please. We all love our pets and only post out of concern for those who love theirs as well. Something to bear in mind when feeling grumpy

why have posts been deleted, is it not possible for people to say "sorry" on this forum?

[bina]

well british white bread must be different than our white bread for it to cause probems when dry....

dont see that royal canine or science diet /hills recommends making their dry foods wet, to moisten is one thing, not wet soggy...

he's not a young pup he's 9 months old and looks and acts healthy other then eating.... obviously fever etc would make him a 'sick' dog but OP hasnt mentioned yet these things....

chicken bones when not cooked do not splinter, do not become hard, and do not become 'balls' stuck in the intenstines...

potatoes et al (tomatoes, eggplant) are often on the list of no no's to most mammals (why not us?) such as rabbits, goats/sheep, horses and donkeys although from personal experience if animals are used to eating thses things, they dont suffer adverse affects. most dogs in israel get leftover 'cholnt' which is meat and potatoe stew with beans some cant eat this others fart like he.. but thats it. food allergies and genetic predisposition to intestinal problems among purebred and mixed breeds seems to be on the rise.

giving a pill by openng a dog's mouth and pushing down his throat, if done properly, doesnt cause any problems. u get the dog to sit, stand from behind, open mouth, put pill on back of throat, close mouth, and offer treat. they swallow. no fuss, no muss. now get a cat to do that... ))

and roy, in my years -at least 30 in the animal professions-people are stupid. u cant even imagine what cases we get in the clinic due to stupidity or lack of knowlege or lack of care/concern from dog and cat owners, the same as folks raising children. who is stupid enough to leave a pup in a locked car in july in israel??? or a child? happens all the time. or the dog we had to put pins in to his leg as he jumped from his balcony two meters down and broke his leg above the knee (fireworks for a wedding frightened him and he jumped.) i should make a list of all the dumb things owners have done. u would be surprised.

as a side comment off topic:

who is stupid enough to buy a month old yorkshire pup from thailand from a 'breeder', travel thru to israel in august, with a stop in russia somewhere, and believe that the pup is three months old. the pup died yesterday after we gave fluids and dexamethsone. it ws already convulsing when they brought him in. i will make a separate thread cause i have the name of the 'breeder/supplier', but these poor dumb family just wanted a cute pet for their daughter and them. the pup had been 'vaccinated' but the vaccine book just had a rabies vaccine sticker in it. for a month old pup?!!! suckers every day ... but i digress and will make this a separate thread when i get the info about the breeder/supplier/and the vet that provided the vaccine........

roy, i appreciate your info, i take it u breed german shepherds??? as i stated, every country has its own style and laws and suggestions for breeding, diet, etc. among goats i noticed that also.

bina

israel

Edited August 5, 2008 by bina

[Slip]

... Although, from what you write it sounds very much that your dog has trained you.

Lol. I'm afraid you might be right there.

Thanks everyone for your kind comments. He is a handsome dog.

Bina- he's at the vet tomorrow so I'll know what the parasite was in about 24 hours.

[Nienke]

Hi,

Without strolling up and down all the time, and relying on my 'amazing' memory I understand that the dog was fed on rice etc when you got him. Then you switched to Royal canine mixed with liver which he ate but not gulped it down.

Then you switched to Alpo.

Your dog got sick. Not sure if he was on Alpo or RC at the time, but from your posts it sound to me that your dog associates his ill feelings with primarily the dry food while he already wasn't such a good eater in the first place. OR .... he wasn't a good eater from the moment he came to you as he ALREADY was suffering from the bloodparasite.

As he wasn't eating so well, or you think he is eating not well (from the pic's I get the impression that he eats just that what he needs as he looks good on there), you started to hand-feed him and feeding him whatever he wanted to eat.

You write that when your neighbor feeds him he always eats it all. Does your neighbor gives the food in a bowl or by hand? If it is a bowl, then you have part of your answer there.

As it is very possible that he associates the dryfood with his illness or the dryfood gives him a slight stomach upset, i would suggest to skip it all. The latter is very possible as he did have a sudden bumpy outbreak. Could have been an allergic reaction to something in the food (although this is plain guessing).

IME at the kennel, when dogs don't feel well the first thing they refuse is the commercial dog food, while they still might be tempted by cooked or raw. And vice versa, when getting better it is usually the commercial pet food that they accept at last resort. I've had several dogs already that really don't want to eat any of the low grade foods. They can't tell me why, but I assume they know/feel in one way or another that it makes them feel unwell.

If he does eat rice meals I would give him that or (as I'm a raw food fan) better to give it all raw (and no rice). If the dog doesn't take the raw immediately than you can dip it in boiled better for a split second so the outside will smell like cooked.

When the test results tell you there is nothing wrong, then I suggest to give your dog only 15 minutes to eat each meal. Then take it away. Do not stay with him, but leave immediately after you have put down the food bowl. He is 9 months old, he can do one day without food if he chooses to do so.

Make sure that in between meal time he does not receive any snacks or food from your neighbor. Ask him for his understanding.

I'll keep my fingers crossed that all test results will come back ok.

Nienke

[roygsd]

roy, i take it u breed german shepherds???

bina

israel

Hi.

I have always had an interest in dogs of all varieties, but the GSD has always been a fovourite, I used to show the in the the uk and germany until the penny dropped when I finally realised that many dog exhibitors/breeders dont seem to like dogs that much, money and ego's come before the dogs far too regularly for my liking.

There is a great deal of money to be mad at the top end of showing/breeding, in germany where most of the worlds current top dogs are located ( they sell the older winners when they have a replacement coming through) you are allowed to breed the stud dog a maximum of 90 times a year.

A top dog will always get more requests to use the dog than it is permited, a stud fee of anywhere between £ 500 - £1000

is the norm and obviously dependent upon which dog is flavor of the month so to speak.

As usual Politics and commercial interests often result in dubious decisions by the SV who regulate the GSd in Germany, sadly its a business, plain and simple.

As the SV in Germany also influence/control (one way or another) the WUSV ( wolrd union ) the gsd scene is under the influence of a very small number of individuals who have their own stock to promote.

I have owned gsds for over 30 years and have bred 4 litters in that time and have no intention to raise another litter, I have two female gsds aged 6 and 7 and a 5 year old son of one of the bitches who live in the house.

The dog is used for selective stud work on the odd occasion, if the bitch has bad hip scores then I refuse the request, I also get the pedigree checked out to minimse any potential problems that can rise from using dogs/bitches from lines that are atributed to many of the problems within the breed like epilepsy and other serious problems.

Having said that genetics is a gamble, all you can do is to do your best to avoid a potential situation arising.

I have no intention of replacing these dogs when they pass away, they are a fulll time commitment and I dont want ot snuff it and leave the fate of any of my dogs to someone else to decide.

Sometimes dog lovers should decline to own a dog, getting one is too easy in my view.

One of my daughters now has posession of a 10 year old chiauaua ( wrong spelling sorry) which I got for her and her sister as a 10 week old pup from aguy who had bought it and then he had been diagnosed with serious heart problems, she owns a big part of my heart as does a great dane bitch I once owned who sadly developedbone cancer at the young age of 4.

A dog doesnt know or care if its a big or small dog, the great dane was never happpier than when she way able to lie in my lap and arms like a baby ( not easy!) and the same goes for the chiauaua and one of my female gsds I have at home.

My male gsd has working qualifications including manwork ( as does his mother) but he is a big softy who cannot bear me to stoke the other dogs, not agressive with them he justs tries to push himself between myself and the others whenever he can get away with it.

Some people have signs that say Beware of the GSD on their Property, I have one that says Beware of the dog owner

rather than the dog.

A dog owners job is to protect their dogs rather than the other way around, for sure a dog will usually defend its owners if required to do so but I would avoid putting them in that situation at all costs.

Oh well best I go soak the dogs food now....................LOL

roy gsd

[roygsd]

Hi,

Without strolling up and down all the time, and relying on my 'amazing' memory I understand that the dog was fed on rice etc when you got him. Then you switched to Royal canine mixed with liver which he ate but not gulped it down.

Then you switched to Alpo.

Your dog got sick. Not sure if he was on Alpo or RC at the time, but from your posts it sound to me that your dog associates his ill feelings with primarily the dry food while he already wasn't such a good eater in the first place. OR .... he wasn't a good eater from the moment he came to you as he ALREADY was suffering from the bloodparasite.

As he wasn't eating so well, or you think he is eating not well (from the pic's I get the impression that he eats just that what he needs as he looks good on there), you started to hand-feed him and feeding him whatever he wanted to eat.

You write that when your neighbor feeds him he always eats it all. Does your neighbor gives the food in a bowl or by hand? If it is a bowl, then you have part of your answer there.

As it is very possible that he associates the dryfood with his illness or the dryfood gives him a slight stomach upset, i would suggest to skip it all. The latter is very possible as he did have a sudden bumpy outbreak. Could have been an allergic reaction to something in the food (although this is plain guessing).

IME at the kennel, when dogs don't feel well the first thing they refuse is the commercial dog food, while they still might be tempted by cooked or raw. And vice versa, when getting better it is usually the commercial pet food that they accept at last resort. I've had several dogs already that really don't want to eat any of the low grade foods. They can't tell me why, but I assume they know/feel in one way or another that it makes them feel unwell.

If he does eat rice meals I would give him that or (as I'm a raw food fan) better to give it all raw (and no rice). If the dog doesn't take the raw immediately than you can dip it in boiled better for a split second so the outside will smell like cooked.

When the test results tell you there is nothing wrong, then I suggest to give your dog only 15 minutes to eat each meal. Then take it away. Do not stay with him, but leave immediately after you have put down the food bowl. He is 9 months old, he can do one day without food if he chooses to do so.

Make sure that in between meal time he does not receive any snacks or food from your neighbor. Ask him for his understanding.

I'll keep my fingers crossed that all test results will come back ok.

Nienke

Sensible advice

Roy gsd

[Slip]

Hi,

Without strolling up and down all the time, and relying on my 'amazing' memory I understand that the dog was fed on rice etc when you got him. Then you switched to Royal canine mixed with liver which he ate but not gulped it down.

Then you switched to Alpo.

Your dog got sick. Not sure if he was on Alpo or RC at the time, but from your posts it sound to me that your dog associates his ill feelings with primarily the dry food while he already wasn't such a good eater in the first place. OR .... he wasn't a good eater from the moment he came to you as he ALREADY was suffering from the bloodparasite.

Your summary is right, yes he was sick when we got him. A Chatujak buy I'm afraid, but I couldn't leave him there- he was decidedly listless and the vendor kept poking him with a stick to make him get up, my immediate thought was he was very sick. He was long term in the vet within 2 days of us getting him. (Note he was given a clean bill of health by a vet in the market- I've at least learned something in the last 7 months or so re: where not to get a dog, but I'd buy him again without hesitation in the same circumstances). But after his week in the vet he ate his rice or Canin puppy mix with cooked liver (gradually weaning him off rice) fairly happily. He nearly always ate but we would have to call him to his food everytime.

We switched to Alpo feed with cooked liver when he reached 6 months or so (as advised by our vet i.e keep Royal C for the 1st 6 months at least). Shortly after I started buying commercial frozen chicken carcass 'Mr Dog'. He ate all his food but remained unexcited.

As he wasn't eating so well, or you think he is eating not well (from the pic's I get the impression that he eats just that what he needs as he looks good on there), you started to hand-feed him and feeding him whatever he wanted to eat.

You write that when your neighbor feeds him he always eats it all. Does your neighbor gives the food in a bowl or by hand? If it is a bowl, then you have part of your answer there.

About 6-9 days ago he changed his habbits- he would eat about 1/4 of his food and then completey lose interest. At this time we relaxed the rules a lot- dry food is available constantly (tho' I never see him it the dry), along with plenty of water; and now we leave his meat food down much longer than before- probaly too long at 2-3 hours. I've been feeding raw meat with a little meal the couple of days- today after tempting witha couple of pieces he ate from the bowl in one as I would expect.

The neighbour feeds him in a bowl. Last night I gave him (the dog, not the neighbour) stall cooked Khao Pad Moo in his bowl-he didn't need asking twice. Several people have suggested feeding rice but I'm concerned about nutritional value although he loves to eat rice.

As it is very possible that he associates the dryfood with his illness or the dryfood gives him a slight stomach upset, i would suggest to skip it all. The latter is very possible as he did have a sudden bumpy outbreak. Could have been an allergic reaction to something in the food (although this is plain guessing).

Another Thai friend ( who persuaded our neighbour to rush our boy to the doc when we were on hols) said the bumpy skin was a serious infection that would be fatal in 1-2 years.

If he does eat rice meals I would give him that or (as I'm a raw food fan) better to give it all raw (and no rice). If the dog doesn't take the raw immediately than you can dip it in boiled better for a split second so the outside will smell like cooked.

He reasonably happily will eat supermarket bought (read expensive) beef. Maybe I should just buy a cattle farm?

Nienke

Thank you very much for your suggestions and comments. There has been a lot of good advice on this thread.

I've been reading the excellent threads on training that have been running a while on this forum too (with many of the same expert contributors) and the 2 topics together have been a great help.

[Slip]

Hi all,

well we've been to the vet today and got blood tests done so 2 days wait for the results. The parasite he had originally is called 'Babesia canis' so I'm off to read up on that.

[bina]

so, its a protozoa, and i'm wondering if it is totally erradicated or if it does a cyclical type thing, which would maybe effect your dogs appetite (good periods and bad periods like lyme disease and mediterranean fever and such)...

[Slip]

It looks pretty nasty and also very hard to detect according to this site : http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_babes...on_in_dogs.html

If one is very lucky, the Babesia organisms can be seen on a blood smear. Babesia canis organisms are tear-shaped and occur in pairs. Other Babesia species have several forms in which they appear. Odds of finding the organism are improved by checking freshly drawn blood taken from a capillary source ( a small cut to an ear, for example) rather than from a blood vessel. If Babesia organisms are found, the patient is definitely infected but they are hard to find so an alternative method of diagnosis is needed.

Antibody testing has been problematic as infected animals may have circulating antibodies long after the organism is gone or may have no antibodies circulating while a few organisms remain hidden inside red blood cells.

Funnily enough, on this visit, before i found any info, I had a feeling that the vet was not being entirely clear whether he he had found Babesia or was simply treating for it just in case.

As you say Bina it seem it may be impossible to eradicate it fully:

Therapy for Babesia is not a benign under-taking. In fact, if a dog is asymptomatic with Babesia, treatment is not worth the side effects. Further, even with treatment Babesia gibsoni, and probably the other small Babesia species, cannot be fully cleared by any of the drugs listed.

[bina]

friday i will ask vet, since we have a tick fever case that came in today that isnt responding to treatment, so i might mention this one also, although in israel apparently rare , u never know...

but it is pravalent in s. east asia from what i read (the babesia that is, not the erlichaea)...

dont know what to advise in this case... ull just have to research it all out, how was his hgb (hemoglobn?) etc? maybe blood transfusion could help? try to get info from cornell vet site, or similar?

[Slip]

Hi all

Just a quick update- the vet said everything is fine. He also seems to be eating once more.

Thanks everyone for your help amd input.