Atm Fees Increased By 50%

[jfchandler]

Naam, to answer your question earlier...

I was talking about U.S. credit cards that DO NOT charge foreign currency transaction fees for purchases - not talking about cash advances... For all the reasons mentioned above, I never use credit cards for cash advances.

Most of my U.S. credit cards will charge somewhere between 1 and 3% extra (beyond the purchase amount) via a "foreign transaction fee."

However, as I said, when in Thailand, those sit in the safe box... And I only use one U.S. credit card I have that has ZERO foreign currency transaction fees. The amount of my purchase is all that I am charged...nothing extra.

[jfchandler]

The link JimGant provided above, I think, provides an excellent summary of the lay of the land for U.S. credit card usage and fees abroad...

This summary below is particularly apt... And if you read it, you'll see which U.S. CC company I'm using that charge NO foreign currency transaction fees.... The major retail banks, as recounted below, are reaming folks with extra fees.

Credit/charge cards

Traditional credit/charge cards are cards that are NOT linked to a bank account, but that instead charge against a credit line.

• For most transactions in foreign currency on a US-issued card, the network (i.e. Visa/MC) will tack on a 1% charge. A few banks/card-issuers "eat" the fee (notably CapitalOne). Most pass it on either as a line item on your statement or "built in" to the exchange rate. Discover and JCB do not charge a fee, and American Express card fees depend on who issues the card. In some cases, Visa/MC will even charge 1% for overseas transactions that are denominated in US$. See the charts below for details.
  
• In addition, most big issuing banks (Citi, Chase, Bank of America, etc.) will tack on an additional 2% on top of whatever the network charges (for a total fee of 3%). AmEx cards issued directly by American Express have a 2% to 2.5% total fee for US-issued cards. AmEx cards issued by other banks (Bank of America, USAA, Citi, etc.) work according to that bank's policies. A few card issuers do not tack on this additional fee, and a very few (notably CapitalOne) even eat the Visa/MC 1% for a total fee of 0%. See the charts below for details.
  
• Last, there is the issue of the exchange rate itself. In general Visa/MC cards seem to get slightly better exchange rates than AmEx, although the difference is not material.
  

[lifemagic]

I just noticed charges on my account. I've been here three months using a UK debit card, getting occasional 6000B from Siam commerical banks, 100% free. No UK fee, no thai fee.

Just looked at my statement, and 6000 is now 20B since July 16.

It's a Thai charge though. My bank is free for overseas withdrawels (Nationwide bs).

[jfchandler]

Just fyi, as promised, I did this test the other day...involving ATM withdrawals within minutes of each other on the same day, same amounts of 1000 baht, from both SCB and BKK Bank ATMs in BKK...using the same U.S. bank Visa debit card.

Net charge to my bank from the SCB withdrawal: $30.30

included 20 baht transaction fee.

Net exchange rate without the fee: 33.66

Real exchange rate including the fee: 33.0

Net charge to my bank from the BKK Bank withdrawal: $29.70

no ATM fee assessed by BKK Bank

Real exchange rate: 33.67

ThaiVisa U.S. $-Thai midday baht exchange rate posted for the Aug. 12 transaction date: 33.67

Bottom line... no reason to use SCB whether other better options are available...

PS - And of course, I know (so no one needs to post to point this out here)... the 20 baht SCB fee has less of an impact on one's real net exchange rate as the individual amount you withdraw becomes larger. But, at the same time, using SCB for any amount will never give you a better rate... it can only be worse.

[novice]

Mr. Brahmburgers, I agree with you that visa/cirrus(scb bank) changes 3% for every international transaction, that what i'm wondering. Thus, I have further question about bangkok bank that how many percent does bangkok bank charge us when we withdraw in foreign country. Due to my friend ,using bangkok bank atm, told me it doesn't charge us, but I don't believe so.

[Melpomene]

Considering the thousands of banks worldwide and huge variation in the fees charged by them, programming that in and keeping it current would be a nightmare. I just don't see that happening.

Maybe you're right. Having to pay $35 to wire money internationally, in what seems like a Western Union era, says these financial giants aren't as real-time as one would want. So, real-time data bases may also be an illusion.

Actually most bank's authorisation and posting systems are real time - even though many are still running on legacy mainframes. Except in certain unusual situations where the banks middleware applications (slow response from the mainframe) or Visa (slow reponse from the issuing bank) may make a stand in decision on whether to approve or decline the authorisation request.

In terms of the fees charged this is a bit of a minefield but i can confirm its your card issuing bank and NOT Visa who are levying the charges. You are a customer of your bank not Visa. It is your bank who is Visa's customer and your bank has the right to issue Visa (or Maestro/Cirrus or whatever scheme they sign up to) branded debit and credit cards. In effect the bank charges you and then some of this will passed onto Visa or Maestro as per the banks agreement with that scheme.

Note there are exceptions in terms of this charging eg Nationwide.

Edited August 14, 2008 by Melpomene

[JimGant]

Net charge to my bank from the BKK Bank withdrawal: $29.70

no ATM fee assessed by BKK Bank

Real exchange rate: 33.67

JFC, Who's your issuing bank/financial institution? It appears they're reimbursing you the 1% Visa foreign exchange fee (since you received the advertised exchange rate of 33.67 without discount). I'd like some of that action

[JimGant]

In some cases, Visa/MC will even charge 1% for overseas transactions that are denominated in US$

In all cases, I'm afraid. When DCC (Dynamic Currency Conversion) is used, where the merchant and his servicing bank do the currency conversion (not Visa/MC), Visa/MC nevertheless take their 1% cut. This 1% used to be called 'foreign conversion fee.' Now, with DCC, it's called 'foreign transaction fee.' That Visa/MC even allow DCC, let alone add 1% to this thievery, puts bankers right up there with lawyers....

[Gary A]

In some cases, Visa/MC will even charge 1% for overseas transactions that are denominated in US$

In all cases, I'm afraid. When DCC (Dynamic Currency Conversion) is used, where the merchant and his servicing bank do the currency conversion (not Visa/MC), Visa/MC nevertheless take their 1% cut. This 1% used to be called 'foreign conversion fee.' Now, with DCC, it's called 'foreign transaction fee.' That Visa/MC even allow DCC, let alone add 1% to this thievery, puts bankers right up there with lawyers....

Banks provide a service. I don't mind paying a reasonable fee for a service. Lawyers prey on your misery and often create more misery.

[PaulAllen]

I withdrew $300 from an ATM machine with my Wells Fargo (US) card in Phenom Phen in Cambodia one time (it was paid in American dollars of course). And exactly $300 dollars was taken out of my American account.

Absolutely zero charge for that. I was very surprised and impressed!

[thaihome]

Never been to Cambodia, the ATM issue USD?

TH

[vagabond48]

Never been to Cambodia, the ATM issue USD?

TH

yep.

[Pakboong]

This link will give most of the US bank rates and some others for both Debit and Credit

Cards. This is a moving target and expect them to increase with the current bank crisis.

http://flyerguide.com/wiki/index.php/Credi...8used_at_ATM.29

[brahmburgers]

I withdrew $300 from an ATM machine with my Wells Fargo (US) card in Phenom Phen in Cambodia one time (it was paid in American dollars of course). And exactly $300 dollars was taken out of my American account.

Absolutely zero charge for that. I was very surprised and impressed!

Impressive indeed - though I wonder if that's the final assessment of your account balance. In other words, there may be added fees tacked on later.

I just rec'd my Citibank (US) account statement in the mail. I admit there were a flurry of withdrawals (33). Earlier, I had been told by an officer at my Thai bank (Siam Comm) that there were "no fees for ATM withdrawals." I asked her pointedly whether that included ATM withdrawals from overseas accounts, she said 'yes.' I found out later she was mistaken.

How many more Thai bank officials give faulty info (to farang and others)? I'm not saying it was intentional, I'm saying lots of 'professionals' give outmoded info which they think is correct. Another case in point: a phone support worker with Citibank recently told me there was a flat 2% charge on ATM withdrawals. I countered, saying it's now 3%. He went to talk to his managers and found I was correct.

So, taking earlier assurance (from my SCB official) that ATM withdrawals had no fees, I did the 33 withdrawals. Turns out, each one had $1.50 fee from my US bank, ( = $48.50 ) and each had an additional 2% by visa/cirrus (or whatever corp is siphoning off money in the shadows without plainly informing customers). That 2% has since become 3%, as mentioned in my OP.

Just as cigarette packs are required to have printed warnings, I think bank receipts should have a mention, something like, "it is likely that there are added-on fees from your bank - above the amount you're withdrawing." Similarly, there should be a message on the screen before withdrawing.

2% on the withdrawal amount plus the Citibanks's $1.50/each added up to $281.70 for my one month's activity. If it had all happened the following month, the fees would have been 50% higher because of the 1% rate hike. Add to that the $49.50 for 33 transactions, and it's quite a chunk.

The basic point here is for ATM users to get informed - so they're not paying more than they need to pay in fees (hidden and otherwise).

I've recently gone to using SWIFT via online banking - for transferring from my US bank to my Thai bank. It's a flat $30 per transaction - plus there may be something added for converting dollars to baht. Then my withdrawals from SCB ATMs are indeed fee-free.

Edited September 10, 2008 by brahmburgers

[rcys]

If it had all happened the following month, the fees would have been 50% higher because of the 1% rate hike.

Hello, I noticed in Aug 2008 that there was a 1% PLUS(Visa) charge on all my ATM withdrawals where none existed before. You mentioned that there was a 1% rate hike? I have not been able to find any information about that at all. Can you please tell me how and where you found out about this 1% rate hike? Is it only on PLUS or is it on Cirrus as well?

Has anyone found a way to get around this 1% fee?

Thanks,

Ray

[Gumballl]

...

2% on the withdrawal amount plus the Citibanks's $1.50/each added up to $281.70 for my one month's activity. If it had all happened the following month, the fees would have been 50% higher because of the 1% rate hike. Add to that the $49.50 for 33 transactions, and it's quite a chunk.

...

So now that you are aware of the fees, what do you plan to do to mitigate the excessive banking fees you are amassing each month? Perhaps withdraw monies less frequently and perhaps in greater quantity?

When I withdraw money from my Bank of America account, the service fee is $5 plus 1% of the dollar amount of the transaction. For a 20K Baht withdrawal, that amounts to about $10.81 ($5 + $5.81). This amount of money generally lasts me for 9-12 days. As for the fee, well I can live with it. I pay more to hire a private taxi to take me and my family into town where I can find an ATM and perhaps a decent meal to eat.

P.S. 20K Baht = $580.61 ---> 34.4465 Baht/$1

[jfchandler]

It's up to your U.S. bank about whether they want to charge the foreign transaction fees or not.

For ATM withdrawals in Thailand, I only use U.S. bank accounts that either a) don't charge any foreign transaction/currency fees or charge and then refund those fees every month because of the details of my account.

If you do some checking and research, you will find there are a variety of regular U.S. bank ATM and credit cards that are fee-free even when used abroad.

I was a longtime BofA customer in the U.S., but I NEVER use my BofA cards here in Thailand. Their fees are excessive, and you're basically throwing your money away.

[Gumballl]

It's up to your U.S. bank about whether they want to charge the foreign transaction fees or not.

For ATM withdrawals in Thailand, I only use U.S. bank accounts that either a) don't charge any foreign transaction/currency fees or charge and then refund those fees every month because of the details of my account.

If you do some checking and research, you will find there are a variety of regular U.S. bank ATM and credit cards that are fee-free even when used abroad.

I was a longtime BofA customer in the U.S., but I NEVER use my BofA cards here in Thailand. Their fees are excessive, and you're basically throwing your money away.

You're right... I am throwing my money away. Am I happy about it?... not at all. I will heed your suggestion upon my return to LOF (Land of Frowns); but for now I'm stuck with BofA. For grins, maybe I should try exercising my HSBC account. I've never done that before, thus I don't know what to expect.

[jfchandler]

HSBC, their U.S. account, is almost as bad as BofA in terms of charging various fees when used abroad. It might be a bit better, but not by much...

The answer here is...you don't need to give up or stop using BofA or HSBC accounts that you may use while living in the U.S. The answer is just, find and open a U.S. bank account with ATM/debit card that has no foreign currency fees... And then, when you travel abroad, simply ACH transfer your travel funds into that account and use that account abroad.

U.S. banks rarely if ever give you any advantage in Thailand. BofA has one office here in BKK, but it's not for retail customers at all. HSBC also has one office in BKK, near the Saladaeng BTS station and they have HSBC ATMs there... But they operate as a separate location from the U.S. bank, so going there offers little advantage.

You're best bet is simply using various Thai bank ATMs with your no-fee U.S. ATM/debit card. But, right now, I would avoid Siam Commercial Bank, which I used to use almost exclusively, because they recently have begun charging a 20 baht per transaction fee when non-Thai ATM cards are used in their ATMs. Most other Thai banks, at present, are not charging such fees.

[brahmburgers]

So now that you are aware of the fees, what do you plan to do to mitigate the excessive banking fees you are amassing each month? Perhaps withdraw monies less frequently and perhaps in greater quantity?

admittedly, I had a flurry of small scale bank activity that month, though my multi-entry visits to the Thai ATM's were partially based on false info rec'd from Thai bank officers ("no fees for any ATM withdrawals"). My harebrained ATM activity also didn't know about hidden fees and clandestine rate hikes by US financial institutions - some of which were hiked up during that same month. I'm now more wary of banks in general. Reading all the small print might get you abreast of most of their fees - but they still have tricks up their sleeves for milking more money from customers.

I am now searching for a comparatively decent place to bank with. Am considering PayPal. Any suggestions are appreciated.

Some considerations are: the bank having decent ATM fees, and also not spooked by a customer with a Thai address.