Just Immigration Questions

[harrry]

As under the 1999 law regarding disabilities all Government offices should be accessible to people with disabilities what arangements are made for extensions reporting etc if the buildings are not and people have difficulty accessing them.

[mcgriffith]

Moved back to CM forum per member's request.

Please keep comments specific to the OP's question.

General visa issues/questions, please see the Visa subforum.

McG

[pwp]

A couple points the folks here are trying to point out here "quietly" are these, which don't seem to be getting through to you:

We have no way to ascertain who may be reading this forum at any given time. May happen that sometimes immigration employees read this and come up with new nightmares for us to deal with. Nightmares that they weren't aware of YET.I am referencing the whole IRS can of worms.

Another subtle point is that myself or other posters responding here have never had to come up with more extemporaneous "proof". Although "it could happen" as you say....no one in living memory has ever had to do so while re-newing a retirement ext. Another reason to not bring it up. I am certain of that. I could though be wrong on the "No one in living memory" thing.

Long story ...short is that it is commendable that you would never produce these documents unless asked, the mention of them here on this forum is bad form.

I am posting this while trying to be helpful and not cynical at all. Really is directed at future posts. Good luck

Many posts are going off the point and some are just going to create problems. I wonder about the motivation of some posters who must know this forum is public and is quite properly read by immigration officials. They want to know farang concerns I am sure in order to help and I have never had anything but help from Thai Immigration. The forum should be for genuine expats who want member advice and not have to put up with non relevant posts and unhelpful sarcasm. We live in Thailand and we have no right to change their way of doing things - often their way is better anyway. Do this the Thai way. Meet the Pol Col in the open meeting that has been set up. The alternative is to keep getting advice from unofficial sources - much of which is incorrect. Carpediem. seize this opportunity to get the right answers from the right quarters

And please please keep on message. Be cautious on some of these posts. Beware of Greeks bearing gifts.

[Greenside]

ADVANCE NOTICE:

I'm going to summarise the questions that have been posted on this thread on Monday morning (that's September 1st) so if you still want to submit one for inclusion under the banner of "Questions from Chiang Mai Expats" please do so before then. Thanks.

[Steve2UK]

Well, although I am not a Thai immigration law expert, nor an attorney, etc. I will weigh in in this topic, before I move it to where it properly resides in the Thai Visa & Immigration sub forum.

2 salient points- the first one is a positive for vagabond48.

How Thai immigration laws are applied by different offices, and immigration officers, varies across the Kingdom. What works in Phuket might not work in Jomtien. Read the above mentioned sub forum for a while and you will get a sense of this.

The bad news is: if you are going the "pension" route, ie using a consular notary statement that says you swear under penalty of perjury (USA legal terms; different terms for UK, EU, etc.) that you have a minimum of 65K B in monthly income, or more.....no, they don't want to see a jumble of 2 or 5 or 7 financial statements from various banks (interest income), insurance companies (annuities), brokerage accounts (sale of equities, bond income, etc.)

They are looking for a clear-cut simple easy-to-comprehend pension statement from:

Your home country government, or

Your previous corporate employer,

or something similar.

It is not an amalgam of multiple sources of income from various investments, rental properties, brokerage accounts, etc.

Not to diminish or disagree with other poster's advice....but there is a 3rd factor here. I call it the "grandfather factor" (no pun intended).

Those who were here many years ago, have been able to successively renew (I believe) under parameters that would not be accepted should they be new applicants today. They have been issued extensions for years; the officers know them and recognize that the extensions have been issued by the self same office.

The rules have have changed as of Oct 2006. Some say it is just an enforcement of existing rules which were ignored previously. Who knows.

My advice is that if you don't have the 800K in a Thai bank account to qualify for the "#2 option", that you contact a Thai attorney or similar specialist to help you out in this process, as it appears your documentation of income falls into a somewhat gray area. Not to say that it won't all work out perfectly.

Best wishes and good luck!

Topic moved to Visa forum.

McG, I'm not at all clear if you are talking about only the US consulate's requirements or more generally about all consulate's requirements. If "generally", then I have to disagree with your comment about what a consulate wants to see. Just last week, for the second year running, I provided the British Consulate with exactly what you say they don't want - i.e. "an amalgam of multiple sources of income from various investments, rental properties" in the form of downloaded online statements from UK savings accounts and the most recent printed monthly statements of rental income from my London property agent. Given that I am providing evidence, with the British consulate there is no swearing of any oath involved. The next day I was able to pick up the British consulate letter confirming that I had shown satisfactory evidence of x sterling income. As previously, the CM Immigration officer did his own calculation of the current baht value of that income and annotated the consulate letter accordingly - and, of course, did not ask to see the evidence of income I had provided to the consulate (though, naturally, I had it with me in case he did).

One other point that seems to be often overlooked - CM Immigration (not sure about other jurisdictions) do want to see evidence of some funds in a Thai account - in the form of signed photocopies of the bank book pages and a letter from the bank confirming the balance - even if your extension application is 100% the "income route". I've never seen the required amount specified, but I got the strong impression that it should be reasonably substantial and not token - e.g. 20,000+ baht seems to fit. Last year, I had about 70,000 baht showing and this year 35,000 baht - accepted both times with just a nod of approval.

In passing, I've always found it misleading to refer to the income route as the "pension route". Not everyone understands (I didn't at first) that the monthly income can be pension partly/fully - or it may contain no pension element (as in my case). Under UK rules, at least, plenty of people aged 50 and over are still years away from drawing any kind of pension - corporate or government.

[Bill97]

One other point that seems to be often overlooked - CM Immigration (not sure about other jurisdictions) do want to see evidence of some funds in a Thai account - in the form of signed photocopies of the bank book pages and a letter from the bank confirming the balance - even if your extension application is 100% the "income route".

That is not always true. I was told that they did not want to see any banking information when I got my extension two months ago (the consul letter was all they wanted and no backup documents or questions).

Nothing about immigration is always true. Every time can and very probably will be different. Policy is what they want to do at the time. Challenge them and you are most likely to loose. So all this shit about trying to know exactly what is/will be required is absurd. The variations are large. Be flexible and enjoy it or have a bad day, it is your choice.

[Priceless]

Well, although I am not a Thai immigration law expert, nor an attorney, etc. I will weigh in in this topic, before I move it to where it properly resides in the Thai Visa & Immigration sub forum.

2 salient points- the first one is a positive for vagabond48.

How Thai immigration laws are applied by different offices, and immigration officers, varies across the Kingdom. What works in Phuket might not work in Jomtien. Read the above mentioned sub forum for a while and you will get a sense of this.

The bad news is: if you are going the "pension" route, ie using a consular notary statement that says you swear under penalty of perjury (USA legal terms; different terms for UK, EU, etc.) that you have a minimum of 65K B in monthly income, or more.....no, they don't want to see a jumble of 2 or 5 or 7 financial statements from various banks (interest income), insurance companies (annuities), brokerage accounts (sale of equities, bond income, etc.)

They are looking for a clear-cut simple easy-to-comprehend pension statement from:

Your home country government, or

Your previous corporate employer,

or something similar.

It is not an amalgam of multiple sources of income from various investments, rental properties, brokerage accounts, etc.

Not to diminish or disagree with other poster's advice....but there is a 3rd factor here. I call it the "grandfather factor" (no pun intended).

Those who were here many years ago, have been able to successively renew (I believe) under parameters that would not be accepted should they be new applicants today. They have been issued extensions for years; the officers know them and recognize that the extensions have been issued by the self same office.

The rules have have changed as of Oct 2006. Some say it is just an enforcement of existing rules which were ignored previously. Who knows.

My advice is that if you don't have the 800K in a Thai bank account to qualify for the "#2 option", that you contact a Thai attorney or similar specialist to help you out in this process, as it appears your documentation of income falls into a somewhat gray area. Not to say that it won't all work out perfectly.

Best wishes and good luck!

Topic moved to Visa forum.

McG, I'm not at all clear if you are talking about only the US consulate's requirements or more generally about all consulate's requirements. If "generally", then I have to disagree with your comment about what a consulate wants to see. Just last week, for the second year running, I provided the British Consulate with exactly what you say they don't want - i.e. "an amalgam of multiple sources of income from various investments, rental properties" in the form of downloaded online statements from UK savings accounts and the most recent printed monthly statements of rental income from my London property agent. Given that I am providing evidence, with the British consulate there is no swearing of any oath involved. The next day I was able to pick up the British consulate letter confirming that I had shown satisfactory evidence of x sterling income. As previously, the CM Immigration officer did his own calculation of the current baht value of that income and annotated the consulate letter accordingly - and, of course, did not ask to see the evidence of income I had provided to the consulate (though, naturally, I had it with me in case he did).

One other point that seems to be often overlooked - CM Immigration (not sure about other jurisdictions) do want to see evidence of some funds in a Thai account - in the form of signed photocopies of the bank book pages and a letter from the bank confirming the balance - even if your extension application is 100% the "income route". I've never seen the required amount specified, but I got the strong impression that it should be reasonably substantial and not token - e.g. 20,000+ baht seems to fit. Last year, I had about 70,000 baht showing and this year 35,000 baht - accepted both times with just a nod of approval.

In passing, I've always found it misleading to refer to the income route as the "pension route". Not everyone understands (I didn't at first) that the monthly income can be pension partly/fully - or it may contain no pension element (as in my case). Under UK rules, at least, plenty of people aged 50 and over are still years away from drawing any kind of pension - corporate or government.

I'm sure McG is quite capable of answering for himself, but the way I read his comment he is not talking about the US consulate or the UK consulate, or any other consulate for that matter, but rather about the Thai immigration authorities. They are (normally) quite happy with you presenting a consular letter. They don't really worry about what underlying documentation the letter is based on.

CM immigration do not always require evidence of you having money in a Thai account, they certainly didn't when I extended my permission to stay last Monday (25 August).

/ Priceless

[gpdjohn]

Thai Bank account.

That is what I don't understand.

I have been told from different sources that yes,a bank book ( copies ) are required.

I have my extension in January 09 and had planned on only going the pension route. I make more than enough to qualify for the 65k monthly.

Do they require money in a Thai bank? or can I just use my monthly govt pension?

So confusing or is it just becuse I'm just a confused person...

[Bill97]

Thai Bank account.

That is what I don't understand.

I have been told from different sources that yes,a bank book ( copies ) are required.

I have my extension in January 09 and had planned on only going the pension route. I make more than enough to qualify for the 65k monthly.

Do they require money in a Thai bank? or can I just use my monthly govt pension?

So confusing or is it just becuse I'm just a confused person...

The two posts above yours say no bank information required if you have pension/income. Just go for your extension 2 weeks early, then if they want something else, you have comfortable time to get it. The whole deal may change between now and then so do not bother with it now.

[Steve2UK]

So, it seems that the questions about the need for a Thai bank account, funds in it and how much would be usefully added to the list for putting to Police Colonel Prayut Chomalee. Bile97 makes one good point when he says "Nothing about immigration is always true". As it happens, I extended my permission to stay on the same day as Priceless; I had 2 weeks previously asked what they would require - e.g. new income letter from consulate, bank letter etc - and was told (by a senior officer) "Yes - everything same as last year". So, I included the bank letter and signed copies of the bank book pages - which the officer duly checked through and noted. Plainly, he didn't ask me for them as they were already in the sheaf of paperwork I presented to him.

Perhaps I did provide more than was necessary this time? Better that way than the reverse and flexibility comes from having what you (may?) need. Result - smooth process completed in about half an hour. And actually quite enjoyable.

[Bill97]

So, it seems that the questions about the need for a Thai bank account, funds in it and how much would be usefully added to the list for putting to Police Colonel Prayut Chomalee.

There nothing positive to be gained from asking that question and potentially losses from doing so. All this concern to know exactly what immigration is going to require next is misguided. It is not the same for all people and they are not going to make it that way. So they can only answer the question for each individual case, not in general.

"flexibility comes from having what you (may?) need."

Really?

[Mapguy]

Just to note that only six people have bothered to download the police order from October 2006 that covers all this and more that I posted in #22 above.

The Immigration Office also has a telephone number: 053277510, 201756 (last time I looked)

[Steve2UK]

So, it seems that the questions about the need for a Thai bank account, funds in it and how much would be usefully added to the list for putting to Police Colonel Prayut Chomalee.

There nothing positive to be gained from asking that question and potentially losses from doing so. All this concern to know exactly what immigration is going to require next is misguided. It is not the same for all people and they are not going to make it that way. So they can only answer the question for each individual case, not in general.

"flexibility comes from having what you (may?) need."

Really?

"nothing positive to be gained from asking that question and potentially losses from doing so". How so? What losses?

Are you now suggesting that the requirements are totally arbitrary? No categories? That's news to me.............

[Bill97]

No. I never suggested that the requirements are totally arbitrary or that there were no catigories. There is however significant variation in practice and rather fantastic variation in people's assumptions and speculations about it as clearly demonstrated by the posts on this thread including your imaginative "news".

What losses? Read the thread and you just might get some ideas since some of the posts address a few of the issues.

[papajohn]

Well, although I am not a Thai immigration law expert, nor an attorney, etc. I will weigh in in this topic, before I move it to where it properly resides in the Thai Visa & Immigration sub forum.

2 salient points- the first one is a positive for vagabond48.

How Thai immigration laws are applied by different offices, and immigration officers, varies across the Kingdom. What works in Phuket might not work in Jomtien. Read the above mentioned sub forum for a while and you will get a sense of this.

The bad news is: if you are going the "pension" route, ie using a consular notary statement that says you swear under penalty of perjury (USA legal terms; different terms for UK, EU, etc.) that you have a minimum of 65K B in monthly income, or more.....no, they don't want to see a jumble of 2 or 5 or 7 financial statements from various banks (interest income), insurance companies (annuities), brokerage accounts (sale of equities, bond income, etc.)

They are looking for a clear-cut simple easy-to-comprehend pension statement from:

Your home country government, or

Your previous corporate employer,

or something similar.

It is not an amalgam of multiple sources of income from various investments, rental properties, brokerage accounts, etc.

Not to diminish or disagree with other poster's advice....but there is a 3rd factor here. I call it the "grandfather factor" (no pun intended).

Those who were here many years ago, have been able to successively renew (I believe) under parameters that would not be accepted should they be new applicants today. They have been issued extensions for years; the officers know them and recognize that the extensions have been issued by the self same office.

The rules have have changed as of Oct 2006. Some say it is just an enforcement of existing rules which were ignored previously. Who knows.

My advice is that if you don't have the 800K in a Thai bank account to qualify for the "#2 option", that you contact a Thai attorney or similar specialist to help you out in this process, as it appears your documentation of income falls into a somewhat gray area. Not to say that it won't all work out perfectly.

Best wishes and good luck!

Topic moved to Visa forum.

McG, I'm not at all clear if you are talking about only the US consulate's requirements or more generally about all consulate's requirements. If "generally", then I have to disagree with your comment about what a consulate wants to see. Just last week, for the second year running, I provided the British Consulate with exactly what you say they don't want - i.e. "an amalgam of multiple sources of income from various investments, rental properties" in the form of downloaded online statements from UK savings accounts and the most recent printed monthly statements of rental income from my London property agent. Given that I am providing evidence, with the British consulate there is no swearing of any oath involved. The next day I was able to pick up the British consulate letter confirming that I had shown satisfactory evidence of x sterling income. As previously, the CM Immigration officer did his own calculation of the current baht value of that income and annotated the consulate letter accordingly - and, of course, did not ask to see the evidence of income I had provided to the consulate (though, naturally, I had it with me in case he did).

One other point that seems to be often overlooked - CM Immigration (not sure about other jurisdictions) do want to see evidence of some funds in a Thai account - in the form of signed photocopies of the bank book pages and a letter from the bank confirming the balance - even if your extension application is 100% the "income route". I've never seen the required amount specified, but I got the strong impression that it should be reasonably substantial and not token - e.g. 20,000+ baht seems to fit. Last year, I had about 70,000 baht showing and this year 35,000 baht - accepted both times with just a nod of approval.

In passing, I've always found it misleading to refer to the income route as the "pension route". Not everyone understands (I didn't at first) that the monthly income can be pension partly/fully - or it may contain no pension element (as in my case). Under UK rules, at least, plenty of people aged 50 and over are still years away from drawing any kind of pension - corporate or government.

Thanks for your insight and comments. Especially about the bank statement and letter. We all get a little aprehensive at renewal time. My experience

was in Bangkok for my first 1 year visa. The officer

said I must get " The lettter from the US Embassy"

I got the sworn letter, 1000 BT, and I get the same person at the Thai Imm. She said " we do not believe the letter". <deleted>, She made me go to her computer and call up my bank account in the US so she could see my bank statement and how much income I had each month. <deleted>, is this.I got my non-imm-o stamp. CM for my 2nd renewal was fast and easy. They have a handout , brochure,which tells you what to do and what to bring with you. Painless if you prepare and

it helps if you have a pleasent attitude. I guess what I am saying is the system here is erratic at best.

Keep your wits and pray a lot : -) Sawadee Kup

[Steve2UK]

Well, although I am not a Thai immigration law expert, nor an attorney, etc. I will weigh in in this topic, before I move it to where it properly resides in the Thai Visa & Immigration sub forum.

2 salient points- the first one is a positive for vagabond48.

How Thai immigration laws are applied by different offices, and immigration officers, varies across the Kingdom. What works in Phuket might not work in Jomtien. Read the above mentioned sub forum for a while and you will get a sense of this.

The bad news is: if you are going the "pension" route, ie using a consular notary statement that says you swear under penalty of perjury (USA legal terms; different terms for UK, EU, etc.) that you have a minimum of 65K B in monthly income, or more.....no, they don't want to see a jumble of 2 or 5 or 7 financial statements from various banks (interest income), insurance companies (annuities), brokerage accounts (sale of equities, bond income, etc.)

They are looking for a clear-cut simple easy-to-comprehend pension statement from:

Your home country government, or

Your previous corporate employer,

or something similar.

It is not an amalgam of multiple sources of income from various investments, rental properties, brokerage accounts, etc.

Not to diminish or disagree with other poster's advice....but there is a 3rd factor here. I call it the "grandfather factor" (no pun intended).

Those who were here many years ago, have been able to successively renew (I believe) under parameters that would not be accepted should they be new applicants today. They have been issued extensions for years; the officers know them and recognize that the extensions have been issued by the self same office.

The rules have have changed as of Oct 2006. Some say it is just an enforcement of existing rules which were ignored previously. Who knows.

My advice is that if you don't have the 800K in a Thai bank account to qualify for the "#2 option", that you contact a Thai attorney or similar specialist to help you out in this process, as it appears your documentation of income falls into a somewhat gray area. Not to say that it won't all work out perfectly.

Best wishes and good luck!

Topic moved to Visa forum.

McG, I'm not at all clear if you are talking about only the US consulate's requirements or more generally about all consulate's requirements. If "generally", then I have to disagree with your comment about what a consulate wants to see. Just last week, for the second year running, I provided the British Consulate with exactly what you say they don't want - i.e. "an amalgam of multiple sources of income from various investments, rental properties" in the form of downloaded online statements from UK savings accounts and the most recent printed monthly statements of rental income from my London property agent. Given that I am providing evidence, with the British consulate there is no swearing of any oath involved. The next day I was able to pick up the British consulate letter confirming that I had shown satisfactory evidence of x sterling income. As previously, the CM Immigration officer did his own calculation of the current baht value of that income and annotated the consulate letter accordingly - and, of course, did not ask to see the evidence of income I had provided to the consulate (though, naturally, I had it with me in case he did).

One other point that seems to be often overlooked - CM Immigration (not sure about other jurisdictions) do want to see evidence of some funds in a Thai account - in the form of signed photocopies of the bank book pages and a letter from the bank confirming the balance - even if your extension application is 100% the "income route". I've never seen the required amount specified, but I got the strong impression that it should be reasonably substantial and not token - e.g. 20,000+ baht seems to fit. Last year, I had about 70,000 baht showing and this year 35,000 baht - accepted both times with just a nod of approval.

In passing, I've always found it misleading to refer to the income route as the "pension route". Not everyone understands (I didn't at first) that the monthly income can be pension partly/fully - or it may contain no pension element (as in my case). Under UK rules, at least, plenty of people aged 50 and over are still years away from drawing any kind of pension - corporate or government.

Thanks for your insight and comments. Especially about the bank statement and letter. We all get a little aprehensive at renewal time. My experience

was in Bangkok for my first 1 year visa. The officer

said I must get " The lettter from the US Embassy"

I got the sworn letter, 1000 BT, and I get the same person at the Thai Imm. She said " we do not believe the letter". <deleted>, She made me go to her computer and call up my bank account in the US so she could see my bank statement and how much income I had each month. <deleted>, is this.I got my non-imm-o stamp. CM for my 2nd renewal was fast and easy. They have a handout , brochure,which tells you what to do and what to bring with you. Painless if you prepare and

it helps if you have a pleasent attitude. I guess what I am saying is the system here is erratic at best.

Keep your wits and pray a lot : -) Sawadee Kup

Happy to have helped fill out the picture - like (some) others I just try to report my experience in the hope that it helps others with theirs. Your experience with the Bangkok officer absolutely reinforces my view that it makes sense to do your reasonable best to have your bases covered by having supporting information available that could well be required - and yes, painless if you prepare........ as compared to a "do I feel lucky?" approach. For myself, I can't see the point in trying the "what's the least I can get away with?" line when dealing with a bureaucracy - it's just asking to get the officers irritated. As you say, "it helps if you have a pleasant attitude" - along with being appropriately dressed for the process. As with other factors, this shouldn't be "news" - but I was again amazed at the appearance of some of the other applicants inside the office while I was there last Monday and it wasn't hard to read the negative reaction of the Thai staff to them.

[T_Dog]

Greenside: Thanks for collecting these. Here are TWO QUESTIONS TO ADD:

1.) The law states that foreigners must carry their passport at ALL times in Thailand. Passports get frayed and are prone to loss and damage for long term residents if indeed carried all the time. Are there any acceptable alternatives (drivers license, copy of passport) that are acceptable to Immigration?

2.) Being able to stay in a country like Thailand long term is a rare privilege in the world. What can foreigners do to show their appreciation to the Immigration Department and the Kingdom of Thailand?

Thanks again! T_Dog

[Bill97]

I just try to report my experience in the hope that it helps others with theirs.

Your experience with the Bangkok officer absolutely reinforces my view that it makes sense to do your reasonable best to have your bases covered by having supporting information available that could well be required - and yes, painless if you prepare........ as compared to a "do I feel lucky?" approach. For myself, I can't see the point in trying the "what's the least I can get away with?" line when dealing with a bureaucracy - it's just asking to get the officers irritated. As you say, "it helps if you have a pleasant attitude" - along with being appropriately dressed for the process. As with other factors, this shouldn't be "news" - but I was again amazed at the appearance of some of the other applicants inside the office while I was there last Monday and it wasn't hard to read the negative reaction of the Thai staff to them.

Thank you for the examples showing that what you call your "experience" includes a your opinions about your experience and more. Much easier to understand your posts now.

[bunta71]

Please bear with the boring text and lengthy dissertation...

I agree with Steve when it comes to getting your ducks all lined up before attempting to interact with immigration.The problem is that this can be accomplished for some things and NOT possible for other immigration needs.

When needing to ascertain what documents are necessary for immigration requirements , I turn to what would seem to be the most credible means of getting these requirements spelled out . These two sources are:

The actual Thailand Immigration website, and

The English translation of Police Order #606/2549

UNFORTUNATELY.... neither one of these is complete!! On the immigration website, when one clicks on the "Required Documents" and then chooses the pertenant category, nothing shows up. So the immigration website needs updating.

The next tool we have, the Police order, translated into English by Sunbelt, is fairly comprehensive and if Immigration officials could all get on the same page and follow the police order as written, would suffice. We all know the problem is that Immigration picks and chooses what parts to apply and THEN, adds their own "requirements" and apply these whimsically one time and not the next. This creates confusion and animosity among everyone. A case in point is the "requirement" someone out of the blue made up to show a local bank account when applying for the pension method of acquiring a retirement extention.

Another example that I have recently had first hand experience is dealing with section 7.19 of the Police Order #606. In my particular case, this pertains to visa extentions for my Philippina wife and my 5 year old American daughter,piggy backing onto my retirement visa ext.

The documents required to prove valid relationships with them are spelled out quite well, but after our nightmare with this I wonder if maybe something was lost in Sunbelts translation. The simple requirements read as follows:

4. Proof of family relationship, e.g., marriage certificate, birth certificate, registration of legitimate child, household registration certificate, proof of child adoption, OR ANY other evidence issued by the authority or agency concerned.

I have all originals, certified copies, and other documents (proof of American citizen born abroad for my daughter). Seems simple enough. I can read English, and have EVERYTHING mentioned as required by law. Silly , stupid me!!!

When we arrived and presented ALL required documents to the lady at the appropriate window, she literally began screaming at me " You falangs NEVER arrive with the required documents!" She was having a mental meltdown and of course this was not a good sign. I was brought in to listen to a gentleman who explained to me that what was needed was for me to get from the Philippine government certified copies of my marriage certificate and also the same certified documents from the U.S. government pertaining to my daughter's birth. I explained that I had all he was requiring right there in my hand. To shorten this story up, what he really wanted but could not communicate to me was the sworn statement only from our consulate attesting to the validity of our documents...both Philippine and American. We are all familiar with this charade. The actual originals and certified copies meant nothing.

Fix the website and/or stick to what the laws are and stop making things up. Get some people who can not only speak English but can UNDERSTAND English working there, or utilize the falang community to help smooth these simply resolved issues. Falangs and the folks working at Immigration could overcome the animosity that occurs and the Immigration Department would gain some face while becoming known as a proffesional, modern entity.

[Steve2UK]

I just try to report my experience in the hope that it helps others with theirs.

Your experience with the Bangkok officer absolutely reinforces my view that it makes sense to do your reasonable best to have your bases covered by having supporting information available that could well be required - and yes, painless if you prepare........ as compared to a "do I feel lucky?" approach. For myself, I can't see the point in trying the "what's the least I can get away with?" line when dealing with a bureaucracy - it's just asking to get the officers irritated. As you say, "it helps if you have a pleasant attitude" - along with being appropriately dressed for the process. As with other factors, this shouldn't be "news" - but I was again amazed at the appearance of some of the other applicants inside the office while I was there last Monday and it wasn't hard to read the negative reaction of the Thai staff to them.

Thank you for the examples showing that what you call your "experience" includes a your opinions about your experience and more. Much easier to understand your posts now.

Leaving aside your apparent need to pepper so many of your posts here with gratuitous snide and unhelpful comments, maybe you're confusing "experience" with "expertise" - which I don't and never will claim. Yes, I report my experience of a process as a fact - and yes, I might express an opinion based on that; I try to word both elements as clearly as I can so that the two are not likely to be confused with each other.

Back to the topic, given that people seem to have had different experiences of whether the Thai bank account letter & bank book photocopies are required for the O-A extension, it seems to me entirely logical to ask the Colonel whether it is or isn't currently a standard requirement for a 100% income-based application - together with what constitutes a reasonable/acceptable amount of funds to be in that account. That is a "significant variation in practice" and, IMO, a simple point for the Colonel to clarify - thereby dealing with at least one aspect of the "rather fantastic variation in people's assumptions and speculations". I see no connection between that and the question of US applicants' need or not for documentary evidence of income beyond the letter they get from their consulate.

For the record, I always read all of a topic before I post in it. IMO it would be discourteous to other TV members not to do so.

[vagabond48]

Just to note that only six people have bothered to download the police order from October 2006 that covers all this and more that I posted in #22 above.

The Immigration Office also has a telephone number: 053277510, 201756 (last time I looked)

I missed it at the bottom of your post.

Make that 11 people.

Thanks.

Edited August 30, 2008 by vagabond48

[Bill97]

Please bear with the boring text and lengthy dissertation...

I agree with Steve when it comes to getting your ducks all lined up before attempting to interact with immigration.The problem is that this can be accomplished for some things and NOT possible for other immigration needs.

When needing to ascertain what documents are necessary for immigration requirements , I turn to what would seem to be the most credible means of getting these requirements spelled out . These two sources are:

The actual Thailand Immigration website, and

The English translation of Police Order #606/2549

UNFORTUNATELY.... neither one of these is complete!! On the immigration website, when one clicks on the "Required Documents" and then chooses the pertenant category, nothing shows up. So the immigration website needs updating.

The next tool we have, the Police order, translated into English by Sunbelt, is fairly comprehensive and if Immigration officials could all get on the same page and follow the police order as written, would suffice. We all know the problem is that Immigration picks and chooses what parts to apply and THEN, adds their own "requirements" and apply these whimsically one time and not the next. This creates confusion and animosity among everyone. A case in point is the "requirement" someone out of the blue made up to show a local bank account when applying for the pension method of acquiring a retirement extention.

Another example that I have recently had first hand experience is dealing with section 7.19 of the Police Order #606. In my particular case, this pertains to visa extentions for my Philippina wife and my 5 year old American daughter,piggy backing onto my retirement visa ext.

The documents required to prove valid relationships with them are spelled out quite well, but after our nightmare with this I wonder if maybe something was lost in Sunbelts translation. The simple requirements read as follows:

4. Proof of family relationship, e.g., marriage certificate, birth certificate, registration of legitimate child, household registration certificate, proof of child adoption, OR ANY other evidence issued by the authority or agency concerned.

I have all originals, certified copies, and other documents (proof of American citizen born abroad for my daughter). Seems simple enough. I can read English, and have EVERYTHING mentioned as required by law. Silly , stupid me!!!

When we arrived and presented ALL required documents to the lady at the appropriate window, she literally began screaming at me " You falangs NEVER arrive with the required documents!" She was having a mental meltdown and of course this was not a good sign. I was brought in to listen to a gentleman who explained to me that what was needed was for me to get from the Philippine government certified copies of my marriage certificate and also the same certified documents from the U.S. government pertaining to my daughter's birth. I explained that I had all he was requiring right there in my hand. To shorten this story up, what he really wanted but could not communicate to me was the sworn statement only from our consulate attesting to the validity of our documents...both Philippine and American. We are all familiar with this charade. The actual originals and certified copies meant nothing.

Fix the website and/or stick to what the laws are and stop making things up. Get some people who can not only speak English but can UNDERSTAND English working there, or utilize the falang community to help smooth these simply resolved issues. Falangs and the folks working at Immigration could overcome the animosity that occurs and the Immigration Department would gain some face while becoming known as a proffesional, modern entity.

Bunta, Take it easy. By your own admission you do not know what the law is and that it is not possible to anticipate immigration's needs. Given those two facts you have no basis to get upset. Accept those two facts, do your best to prepare for your immigration visit but go knowing that you may not be prepared and that you may have to politely get them whatever else they request. Then there is no animosity, confusion or problem.

The immigration police, like most police in Thailand can pretty much do what ever they want. Since it would be impossible for the law to cover every possible situation, it is quite probable that it states that the immigration officer has discretion to decide so it is not just a case of papers. Even if the law does not state that, it is true.

[Steve2UK]

Please bear with the boring text and lengthy dissertation...

I agree with Steve when it comes to getting your ducks all lined up before attempting to interact with immigration.The problem is that this can be accomplished for some things and NOT possible for other immigration needs.

When needing to ascertain what documents are necessary for immigration requirements , I turn to what would seem to be the most credible means of getting these requirements spelled out . These two sources are:

The actual Thailand Immigration website, and

The English translation of Police Order #606/2549

UNFORTUNATELY.... neither one of these is complete!! On the immigration website, when one clicks on the "Required Documents" and then chooses the pertenant category, nothing shows up. So the immigration website needs updating.

The next tool we have, the Police order, translated into English by Sunbelt, is fairly comprehensive and if Immigration officials could all get on the same page and follow the police order as written, would suffice. We all know the problem is that Immigration picks and chooses what parts to apply and THEN, adds their own "requirements" and apply these whimsically one time and not the next. This creates confusion and animosity among everyone. A case in point is the "requirement" someone out of the blue made up to show a local bank account when applying for the pension method of acquiring a retirement extention.

Another example that I have recently had first hand experience is dealing with section 7.19 of the Police Order #606. In my particular case, this pertains to visa extentions for my Philippina wife and my 5 year old American daughter,piggy backing onto my retirement visa ext.

The documents required to prove valid relationships with them are spelled out quite well, but after our nightmare with this I wonder if maybe something was lost in Sunbelts translation. The simple requirements read as follows:

4. Proof of family relationship, e.g., marriage certificate, birth certificate, registration of legitimate child, household registration certificate, proof of child adoption, OR ANY other evidence issued by the authority or agency concerned.

I have all originals, certified copies, and other documents (proof of American citizen born abroad for my daughter). Seems simple enough. I can read English, and have EVERYTHING mentioned as required by law. Silly , stupid me!!!

When we arrived and presented ALL required documents to the lady at the appropriate window, she literally began screaming at me " You falangs NEVER arrive with the required documents!" She was having a mental meltdown and of course this was not a good sign. I was brought in to listen to a gentleman who explained to me that what was needed was for me to get from the Philippine government certified copies of my marriage certificate and also the same certified documents from the U.S. government pertaining to my daughter's birth. I explained that I had all he was requiring right there in my hand. To shorten this story up, what he really wanted but could not communicate to me was the sworn statement only from our consulate attesting to the validity of our documents...both Philippine and American. We are all familiar with this charade. The actual originals and certified copies meant nothing.

Fix the website and/or stick to what the laws are and stop making things up. Get some people who can not only speak English but can UNDERSTAND English working there, or utilize the falang community to help smooth these simply resolved issues. Falangs and the folks working at Immigration could overcome the animosity that occurs and the Immigration Department would gain some face while becoming known as a proffesional, modern entity.

I had the same experience when checking the Immigration website for "documents required" i.e. nothing shows when you click the link - not good. In the case of the Sunbelt translation, I found it somewhat ambiguously worded in terms of whether the Thai bank account (plus bank letter and bank book photocopies) are required for both 100% income-based applications and partial/full Thai bank deposit-based applications. Hence, I made a point of asking at Immigration what would be required for my extension a couple of weeks beforehand - while doing my 90-day address notification.

Plainly, the lady officer you encountered was having what could most charitably be called a "difficult day" - again not good. But, if it needs saying again - TIT and we know it happens. What she said to you just reinforces my view that it's not generally productive to turn up with what may be less than all the ducks lined up - as best as you have been able to establish you will need. It looks like you did just about all you reasonably could to facilitate that - and her reaction was undeniably OTT. From what you say of the second (male) officer's input, the problem was more about terminology. What he said also gives me the impression that Thai Immigration's is a fairly typical bureaucratic approach, given the many nationalities/languages/types of document they have to deal with, i.e. that they are much happier when they see the foreigner's embassy/consulate vouching for and thus effectively taking responsibility for the authenticity of the documents presented. Simpler all round for them

Not to criticise, but the only other thing I can think of that maybe you could have done would have been to visit CM Immigration first to check whether anything further was required - but in your situation and after your research efforts, I would have thought the same as you i.e. that's all my ducks lined up. That said, I've made it a point to check online and then sometimes double-check things in advance with a ranking officer with good English - e.g. I asked the Police Major at the end of my recent extension process whether I would need a new passport before applying for the extension next year as my current one will then have only 6 months to run. She took time to explain the process to me very clearly - and finished by complimenting me for thinking ahead.

One final thought - just an opinion. English is your first language and the Thai officers' second. Many times when I have been at Immigration, I have heard various nationalities having communication problems when they were struggling with their limited English to understand the officers' pronounciation. Now imagine these officers dealing with that day in and day out. Not a job I'd ever want - or you, I suspect? I doubt it pays very well and I suspect that fluent speakers of English are mostly going to look elsewhere to benefit from their language skill. In other words, I don't see this situation changing. As for farang helpers - wouldn't they need fluent Thai? Not many of those around either. But - maybe it's another good question for the good Colonel. If nothing else, it might raise his awareness of the day-to-day problems experienced by both his staff and their farang "clients".

[bunta71]

OK I am taking several deep breaths. I am not actually upset. The lady behind the counter sure was.The animosity I speak of is not mine but clearly does exist and my point is that the underlying causes are so simple to fix. That is what I find astounding. I realize I don't know the laws, and the point is that all I have to go by is incomplete or applied haphazardly. Thought I had a couple constructive points but others always see things differently. To me my thinking is logical, but what do I know,huh?

[Mapguy]

Recently received email:

Dear CEC Members,

I thought I would write a short message with regards to the immigration meeting being held on the 10th September. I for one will certainly be attending as not only do I want to hear what the immigration superintendent and his staff have to say but more importantly, I want to show the immigration authorities that I am interested in meeting them and listening to what they have to say. We are all guests here in Thailand and I think very privileged to be able to live in such a great country, so we should show our support to the one department that basically makes that possible.

My staff have been helping out down at immigration for the last 18 months and although this obviously had a cost to it, I felt that the goodwill generated for CEC members (and other expats too) by this was well worth it.

So, to the cost of this immigration lunch. 450bht is probably more than most of us pay for lunch in normal circumstances, but for the above figure attendees will get tea and coffee on arrival, they will get to hear what the superintendent and his staff have to say and they will get the opportunity to show they support for what the immigration department are doing here in Chiang Mai. In addition they will then get a superb buffet lunch in 5 star surroundings, which having just experienced this at the rooftop fashion show, I can tell you it is fantastic. On offer will be salad and sushi bar, pizza and pasta, main meal station which includes all meats and fish as well as an extensive range of sweets.

Certain people have made comments about this being a profit making event. I can assure you that no profit will be made from this event whatsoever and the only reason it is more expensive than the coming Expat Club Birthday Brunch is that CEC are subsidising the Birthday Brunch tickets.

Please, if you are available on the 10th, support this event.

Regards,

Alan Hall (President CEC)

[pwp]

Everyone should be asking what and who is behind setting up this 450 baht meeting. The lunch as described would not cost 450 baht. The question is what is this hotel charging and who gets the rest of the money. This is Thailand so we know where some money will go.

Posts have already shown the regulations are on line and members experiences have been well documented. Dealing with immigration directly and politely is the answer.

I recently saw a farang hand over 5000 baht to a thai lawyer for filling in a 90 day notice. I know there is one born every minute but this is outrageous exploitation.

Edited August 31, 2008 by pwp

[vagabond48]

Everyone should be asking what and who is behind setting up this 450 baht meeting. The lunch as described would not cost 450 baht. The question is what is this hotel charging and who gets the rest of the money. This is Thailand so we know where some money will go.

Posts have already shown the regulations are on line and members experiences have been well documented. Dealing with immigration directly and politely is the answer.

If you read the fine print, the document that can be downloaded is an English translation of the regulations, by a helpful TV member, hopefully it is an accurate one. I am not aware that he was hired by Thai Immigration to provide an official translation.

Member requirements and experiences vary greatly. From what I have read, how I plan to get my 1st extension appears to be doable but I have yet to read a member sharing similar experiences.

[pwp]

Everyone should be asking what and who is behind setting up this 450 baht meeting. The lunch as described would not cost 450 baht. The question is what is this hotel charging and who gets the rest of the money. This is Thailand so we know where some money will go.

Posts have already shown the regulations are on line and members experiences have been well documented. Dealing with immigration directly and politely is the answer.

If you read the fine print, the document that can be downloaded is an English translation of the regulations, by a helpful TV member, hopefully it is an accurate one. I am not aware that he was hired by Thai Immigration to provide an official translation.

Member requirements and experiences vary greatly. From what I have read, how I plan to get my 1st extension appears to be doable but I have yet to read a member sharing similar experiences.

[pwp]

Everyone should be asking what and who is behind setting up this 450 baht meeting. The lunch as described would not cost 450 baht. The question is what is this hotel charging and who gets the rest of the money. This is Thailand so we know where some money will go.

Posts have already shown the regulations are on line and members experiences have been well documented. Dealing with immigration directly and politely is the answer.

If you read the fine print, the document that can be downloaded is an English translation of the regulations, by a helpful TV member, hopefully it is an accurate one. I am not aware that he was hired by Thai Immigration to provide an official translation.

Member requirements and experiences vary greatly. From what I have read, how I plan to get my 1st extension appears to be doable but I have yet to read a member sharing similar experiences.

The translation was probably not by Immigration but that is not the point I am making

Going to Immigration or using the internet to get the facts is the way to go. Paying 450 baht won't get you any further than eating a lunch which I suspect is not being charged t 450 baht in the first place. TIT

[Rotweiler]

I am fairly certain there will be some responders who will complain about this post (me shrugs.....)

But I feel I must address both this topic and others on this site and others that display the comments and attitudes of many of the foreign "guests" here in Chiang Mai (and probably applicable to most other locations in Thailand....)

We Farang are all guests of Thailand here. We (for the most part) understood the rules of, our rights within, and our obligations to the country we decided to live in, whether for a short time or permanently.

Having at least a rudimentary knowledge of the rules before we came here and hopefully developed some comprehension thereof after we arrived here, many of us, as evidenced here time and time again, forgot that we are guests of a foreign country. We bitch and complain about the Thai, their authorities, and the very rules and regulations we should have understood before we made the leap. We heap abuse upon their authorities (and some of us even forget that Immigration Officers, as they are in most of our original home countries - endowed with the powers of and ARE Police Officers!). We complain bitterly about the Immigration Officers who don't speak the level of English (or French, German, etc etc) we want then to, yet we given them little or no credit when they DO made the effort to speak to us in our language, a VERY foreign language to them. Many of us expect for some reason that the Police and Immigration Officials to treat us as visiting gods, bowing and scraping in from of us, for after all, we ARE better than them and they should just be bloody thankful that we are here!

Some of us are bitter about the fact that even though we are guilty as hel_l of transgressions against rules, regulations and even laws, we get caught and fined or given warnings. We even complain that the Policeman involved refused some tea-money (doode, it's an attempted bribe in ANY country of the world!!). But the stupid Thai Officer gave us a ticket/forced us to get another document/asked us to get a different stamp/made us go to the Police Station/gave us a warning (pick one or add one of your own to the overly short list)! Imagine the audacity of the pompous idiot!

Reality check, lads and lassies. We ARE aliens here, we know it now and we knew it before we arrived.

Can you just imagine what the authorities in our home countries would do to us if we tried the same level of dis-respect and even tricks on them as we attempt on the Authorities in our adopted home here? Whether it be US of A, UK, Au, Fr, Ca, etc etc... Well, just imagine what would happen to you if you didn't have every single required item on an obscure list that could change at any time (and probably has many times) while waiting in an immigration line in New York (or didn't have your Visa papers absolutely correct!)and you tried to pull the same dissing of them that you tried here in CM? In post 9-11 USA? Think about prison or fines if you are a citizen. Arrest and deportation if you are not. Try asking - no, perhaps telling the Immigration Office he SHOULD at least be able to speak to you in Estonian/Punjabi/(pick your language and insert here), and then dissing him when he refuses to speak any language except ENGLISH!

Yes, I understand the forum is a place for us to blow off steam at times; to share issues we have; opportunities we have found; joys and the lack hereof we wish to share with our fellow aliens. But this never-ending tirade against the Country we have either adopted or decided to live in for awhile is really beyond all reason.

RT Weiler

Proud Resident of Chiang Mai, Thailand