Chamlong Srimuang Arrested

[jdinasia]

Animatic --- you quoted me but seem to be addressing perm_dis in your above post.

[Johpa]

Chamlong's got the guns, Money, and right-wing ultra-nationalist Thai-Chinese PAD behind him and is undoubtedly being well taken care of at the moment. No need to shed tears for the man...

"Thai-Chinese PAD"? --- am I missing something? Wasn't it Thaksin that is Thai Chinese? Perhaps you mean urban,educated Thais

Sure, maybe about 10% of the urban educated Thais come from an ethnic Tai background. But the PAD is certainly adamant about not letting those vast rural masses, around 90% of them being of ethnic Tai background, counting their votes equally to the urban folks. So I believe one is justified to see a not so subtle ethnic undercurrent in these political feuds. And everyone misses the fact that most of the rural folks do have a decent secondary education, they are not uneducated, although most did not enjoy four years of young adult day care in college.

I see little difference between the PPP and the PAD although I might argue that the PPP is more of a traditional coalition between the older Sakdina families and the Sino-Thai Bangkok community. Amongst the minions of the old Sakdina families can be counted a large number of high ranking military officers. And we know that few countries have as many high ranking military officers on a percentage basis as does the Royal Thai Armed Forces.

But who knows what machinations and intrigues are taking place behind the walls as the potential power vacuum seems to increase as time progresses forward as the Thai political body continues to fester from a combination of age and disease. Best to go back to the Bard and re-read the tragedies for an improved understanding and insight of the current Thai political circus.

[h90]

Lots of good lively debate, quite inspiring! Keep thinking, keep reaching, undermine your own instincts, leave the rut you've been stuck in, explore a new tangent!

:D

[jdinasia]

ummm sorry Jopha, but where do you get the numbers you quote for urban educated people only being 10% ethnically Thai? (or Tai if you prefer)

You also seem to not take into account that the PAD has representation from ALL groups in its membership including from the South, from the North etc. You know better than to bandy about numbers like that! Look at the faces of the people that have been active in the PAD protests and then tell us again about the 10%!

[h90]

Am I the only one in thinking that this could have been decided upon at a meeting between 2 very high profile figures less than a week ago (can't remember what the date was)?

If this is the case it looks more like an exit strategy for Chamlong and would back up opinions I have heard that the PAD leadership had split into factions.

I agree : the whole operation looks strange. Maybe an exit strategy to save face indeed.

Look at some pictures of Chamlong's "arrest"... He doesn't look like someone under stress...

http://thaicrisis.wordpress.com/2008/10/05...rested-7-to-go/

I smell a deal too. A meeting between Prem and Somchai, then two PAD leaders arrested the same week seem a bit much for a coincidence. The PAD leaders get a promise of mild or no punishment assorted with a nice face-saving exit strategy, Somchai gets more stability for his government, what remains to see is what Prem will get out of it.

I don't see such a deal Somchais government and PPP will be soon past. So Somchai can't negotiate much.

For me it looks like the situation got boring. Normally Samak put some oil in the fire....but as Samak is history Chamlong did it.

Chamlong in jail is a martyr, specialy with his past.

Governments only way to prevent that is to take back the charge treason charge, which would make the PAD almost legal.

[h90]

ummm sorry Jopha, but where do you get the numbers you quote for urban educated people only being 10% ethnically Thai? (or Tai if you prefer)

You also seem to not take into account that the PAD has representation from ALL groups in its membership including from the South, from the North etc. You know better than to bandy about numbers like that! Look at the faces of the people that have been active in the PAD protests and then tell us again about the 10%!

There are a lot of 1/2, 1/4, 1/8 etc Chinese at the urban educated people. Even if you count a 1/16 Chinese as "not thai (tai)" it wouldn't be 90 %.

PAD is going stronger and stronger (which is surprising me) Samak did a good job telling about PAD and ASTV every Sunday. Now it is already a kind of fashion to support PAD.

[Johpa]

ummm sorry Jopha, but where do you get the numbers you quote for urban educated people only being 10% ethnically Thai? (or Tai if you prefer)

You also seem to not take into account that the PAD has representation from ALL groups in its membership including from the South, from the North etc. You know better than to bandy about numbers like that! Look at the faces of the people that have been active in the PAD protests and then tell us again about the 10%!

Yea sure, the PAD has support from the south and the PPP has some support from the north and my numbers were just guesses, perhaps exaggerated and more realistically the divide is 80/20 and not 90/10. But the power in Thailand is undeniable controlled by the Bangkok based Sino-Thai elite in coalition with the smaller yet still powerful old Sakdina families, and the two groups have experienced considerable intermarriage over the past several generations which of course obscures the ethnic issues, and they continue to morph into ever changing coalitions in order for one group to gain an upper hand. And no matter how you cut the cake and although the ethnic factor is not overt, it is as I stated, and always will be, an undercurrent to political events.

[animatic]

Animatic --- you quoted me but seem to be addressing perm_dis in your above post.

JD sadly unintentional,

I missed a quote tag and got called away while editing.

This 1/2 hour time lock on this BBS is annoying.

[jdinasia]

Sorry Jopha but I think the 80% number is purely fictional as well, in fact if that were accurate I think the numbers in today's BKK elections would have skewed far far far more towards Apirak.

I know many Sino-Thai people but I know far more that are ethnically 'Tai' in BKK and they are mostly not FOR the PAD but they are soundly anti-PPP (TRT/Thaksin). Though, like myself, they rather liked Thaksin at first.

[wrecker]

Absolutely disgusting that such a criminal was allowed to vote first before hauled off to prison!

I agree, a man who was with others in charge of an army which as involved in the massacre in the 70's a man who lead protestors to burn down the lottery building which lead to another mass murder and a man who tried to get the army or the policed involved again by attacking government house, airports and tv stations should never have been allowed to vote. If he and Sonthi believe that it is better in china they should go there. Do not talk about paying the motherland back as it is still not sure which motherland these Chinese protestors mean.

[permanent_disorder]

about the PAD, they are not a political party, they are a group focussed upon dealing with the corrupt government in place now (and the former TRT government). They do not need to have all the answers to be morally correct in standing up to corruption at the top levels of government.

about Chamlong, He is part of a small sect of Buddhists in Thailand that are not part of the Thai Sangha while he might enjoy the position to influence national political reform; he is never likely to be the guy in power. His vision of a moral Thailand does not seem to include shoving his morals down the throats of people that are not part of Santi Asoke or the Dharma Army. One could easily look back into the TRT regime and see far stronger attempts to control the moral climate of Thailand than anything Chamlong pushes.

i link the names Popper, Plato, Friedman as a label for broaden concepts and to point in the direction i am talking about.

about the PAD, they are not a political party, they are a group focussed upon dealing ..., they are muppets, puppets, proxies. puppet player is Chamlong, goal is to install "New Politics". his old pupil thaksin a scapegoat, blamed for so much things to make it easier for the new experiment "New Politics". overthrow the government is the first step.

Chamlong pushing, shoving his morals down the throats of people. ask the feminists about Abortion law in thailand.

remember 3 years ago, Thai Beverages was going to get listed at the countries stock exchange, BEER CHANG. but it didn't happen. bangkok have seen big protests against it. protests by monks, ascetic blue shirts and people from all walks of life, leads by Chamlong Srimuang. there are more examples how this moralist do-gooder try to dictate his definition of ethic and morals.

alcohol is the vice, did you recognize that in PAD propaganda the others always get blamed as drunk?

---------------------------

Chamlong tilts at liquor listing

The Nation February 12, 2005

Maj-Geneeral Chamlong Srimuang, the former leader of the now defunct Palang Dharma Party and also an adviser to Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra, is out to freeze Beer Chang’s stock listing, calling it a subversion of society.

“The fact that whiskey- or beer-producers want to mobilise funds on the stock exchange is a social vice. If they can do so, it will encourage companies to promote the production of alcohol,” Chamlong said yesterday. “Thais already drink more than enough. We are now the fifth biggest drinkers in the world.”

Chamlong, long known for his vaunted asceticism and highly conservative views, led an earlier successful campaign against Bangchak Petroleum Plc’s attempt to raise funds from overseas investors, saying it was like selling off the nation’s assets to foreigners.

This time he is taking on Thai Beverages Plc, the producer of Beer Chang, again on moral grounds. Chamlong said he had sent a protest letter to every member of the Stock Exchange of Thailand’s board, urging them to reject Thai Beverages’ listing proposal. “I believe that my protest will help prevent Beer Chang from raising money on the stock market,” he said. SET president Kittiratt Na Ranong earlier said the SET’s board of governors at next month’s meeting would discuss further whether to allow Thai Beverages to go public, following objections from some members to the float of liquor tycoon Charoen...

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/search/rea...p?newsid=112040

------------

[animatic]

Oh animatic, why are you posts all in verse ?

Many of us members find it quite perverse.

Still, as I read I begin to wonder

That with this reposte I might steal your thunder.

Now , I'm sure you are sincere in your belief

That its not PAD's intention to bring Thailand to grief

But if all of their leaders end up behind bars

Arrested while voting or driving their cars

Who will be left to run the big show ?

Panlop and who else we'd like to know ?

Is there anyone else who will pick up the chalice

Who could possibly be Sondhis equal in malice ?

If you have an opinion, we await your reply

But please not in verse , or grown men will cry

Cute.

I write in a fashion that allows me to see my thoughts clearly.

And express them with my intended meanings. And the fewest spelling mistakes.

All other considerations take a back seat. I have some form of dyslexia,

and rarely ever wrote prior to word processing machines.

My eyes can see more clearly for whatever reasons if I do NOT write in long blocks

with few spaces. You may note I rarely write in rhymes, though I can if called upon.

I look at long wide paragraphs as a horror of idea compression, that may contain pearls,

which can be lost in a swine pit of muddy confusion. I read 2-3 hours a day after a

21 day winter camping trip with no reading what so ever, several decades back.

I returned and found that a normally 30 minute trip through the local paper,

suddenly took 3 hours with reduced comprehension.

But this lost speed and understandingreturned after reading a lot for a week.

The same happened for sight reading symphonic level classical music. Use it or lose it.

If I chose, I likely could play in the Bangkok Symphony, but have not the time.

So I feel no compunction to change my style on this or an other BBS.

Clarity of thought trumps form of expression any day.

As to whom might be filling the PAD leader's shoes,

I can't hazard a guess I have not yet a clue,

Some one else will rise and speak up in time due

And some folks here will curse and hold noses anew

And yet many will like the new face and clear voice

Confirming for them now, that they may yet rejoice

They will not be silenced, gain a new standard to hoist

And can someday place a leader who's REALLY their choice

And those Phi Krasu demons living so far away

who would yet pull the strings and their puppets to sway

Shall see strings sliced thin, parsed and utterly debrayed

And no longer control Thialand from up Kensington way

A constitution stood firmly, unsullied from grievous hands

And the 1st through 4th strings will be banned and outmanned

The people will smile as new equal fairness will rise and expand,

With old interests wanning Nom jai will reign over their land

Edited October 5, 2008 by animatic

[CWMcMurray]

Here is a PAD leader making SURE he gets to vote at the risk of getting arrested.

Even making sure he can vote after taken into custody.

Sounds democratic to me.

I don't believe that the PAD think that they shouldn't have a vote... I think they are saying that the uneducated rural folks shouldn't have a vote

I remember reading an article that quoted on of the PAD members saying that, "The one person/one vote system does not work".

Maybe they believe it should be, PAD person = 1 vote, uneducated rural folks 3/5 of a vote. Of course if they still loose the election, I am sure that they reserve the right to reduce that to 2/5 or 1/5 and hold a new election.

[Colonel_Mustard]

Quality. Time for Sondhi to be brought in too.

[Ricardo]

Here is a PAD leader making SURE he gets to vote at the risk of getting arrested.

Even making sure he can vote after taken into custody.

Sounds democratic to me.

I don't believe that the PAD think that they shouldn't have a vote... I think they are saying that the uneducated rural folks shouldn't have a vote

I remember reading an article that quoted on of the PAD members saying that, "The one person/one vote system does not work".

Maybe they believe it should be, PAD person = 1 vote, uneducated rural folks 3/5 of a vote. Of course if they still loose the election, I am sure that they reserve the right to reduce that to 2/5 or 1/5 and hold a new election.

It is a valid point that, although many millions of voters are poor & grow rice for a living, not one of them is actually an MP, so perhaps in that sense the PAD have a valid point.

Although personally I view one-man/one-vote as a basic right, when it keeps delivering the same old elite to power, perhaps the system doesn't work, and it's right to seek an alternative way of selecting MP-candidates ?

And, let it be said yet another time, since it apparently still hasn't registered on some here, the PAD are not a political party and therefore cannot "loose the election", they are just a sometimes-useful fringe-group. who keep embarrassing the elite by trying to highlight corruption. A necessary part of the checks and balances, in fact.

[jumnien]

From today's Nation:

"Sarathoon served the standing warrant to arrest Chamlong on serious charges, including treason, relating to the PAD-led street protests and the August 26 raid of NBT station and the siege of Government House.

Chamlong's ally General Panlop Pinmanee said he suspected the PAD had plotted the arrest in a bid to fuel the opposition movement and gain leverage over the government.

"Another PAD leader Chaiwat Sinsuwong has been in police custody since Friday and it is impossible for the PAD to be blindsided and careless to let police arrest Chamlong without any forewarning," Panlop said.

He said he suspected the PAD had planned the arrest to happen in order to sway anti-government sentiment."

[didivolk]

My goodness.

What constitution??? A rewritten one to get away with treason and to weaken the political system. Whatever u think about Thaksin, that is a fact. The people just agreed (the stupid rural

people ) for not o get a worse one. I know that, been there seen it all (16 y between the stupid farmers ). And I tell u what, a hard working farmer anyday instead of the self proclaimed elite who know it all.

(mostly to fill their pockets ). But if your wisdom comes from the 'Nation or Bangkok Post', congratulations .

Well this is indeed interesting......and yet no one has even mentioned the underlying reason for the sudden arrests.

1. The PPP wishes to change the constitution to remove most of the Monarchy power....(a long time goal of Thaskin)

2. Once they have assumed the center of power, amnesty is a sure bet for Thaskin et al.

3. A new court verdict is due to be announced against Taskin et al on Oct 21 or 22. This will result in a long jail sentence being handed down, plus more time for his wife.

The PPP is about to have another ruling to outlaw this party, so time to get buisness finished before another reshuffle.

This is corruption running completly out of control.

Until the leaders of the past/present corrupt government are placed in jail for their criminal acts (which is currently unknown in Thailand), there is little hope of stopping buisness as ususal. As with the Samak case, as well as the previous case where senteces where handed down to Pojiman and her relitives, and the famous case of the chocate gift to sweeten the attitude of the judiciary that resulted in some more relitives and supporters of the Thaskin clan to be placed immedatly in jail, the court has finally found out what it means to have some power.

I wish them all the best. It is time for a house cleaning.

[animatic]

One must take Gen. Panlop's prognostications with a grain of salt.

Clearly Chamlong wasn't worried about this arrest.

He becomes a bigger symbol.

In a land of unbridled corruption,

having any voices fighting for a more moral stance is not a bad thing.

Yes, he may rail against booze and greed,

but really not listing Singha on SET is not a big loss

for Thailand or the Thai people, just for potential Boon Yawd investors.

If memory serves he and his sect left the larger official Buddhist group because

they didn't approve of IT'S greed hypocracy and corruption ih their opinions,

so they get labled as narrow minded nut cases. I can't tell from here.

But when you have people like Chutwit getting 300k votes,

it's good to have a countervaling social force such as Chamlong

pushing back the other way. If not you get what?

Just greed and evil and no elements being role models for a cleaner life.

[Considered Opinion]

Absolutely disgusting that such a criminal was allowed to vote first before hauled off to prison!

Guess you are now so happy - will be able to get your jollies now for a week or two.

Another Busch supporter perhaps?

[Considered Opinion]

Definitely there will be repercussions due to his arrest.

PAD will re-intensify their campaign.

Chamlong has many friends that are senior within the military and charging him with treason will ignite tempers. He's viewed as a patriot and a devout Buddhist (depite being a military man) and is well respected by many.

A bad tactical move by the PPP to allow this to happen.

I guess the question then begs, who will YOU report them to?

Edited October 6, 2008 by Considered Opinion

[Britannia]

Well one of the main anti PAD aruguments here is that they don't use the ballot box.

Here he is asking to USE the ballot box, and for the right reasons.

He is not convicted of anything, he still has the right to vote.

PAD has made arguments against the current corrupt remotely controlled government,

but hasn't said don't vote them out.

I am SURE someone will come in and say; yes they did.

But that will come across as propaganda talk twisting their aims to suit.

PAD has forced a dialog for the nation.

Some don't want dissenting opinions aired.

Regardless of the direction talking points take,

it is STILL a debate on where the country could go in the future.

Here is a PAD leader making SURE he gets to vote at the risk of getting arrested.

Even making sure he can vote after taken into custody.

Sounds democratic to me.

I dont think any of you understand the word or the definition of democracy. look it up in adictionary. I can just imagine what would happen if a crowed of protesters tried to take over the houses of Parliment or Chequers or the white house. See how fast the army would move then. Demodracy is not mob rule

[didivolk]

Nearly right my dear . But the so called 'PAD' is a forefront of the rich and powerful. And the rich and powerful want to stay rich and powerful . But they are stupid (not the rural population). They should look around the more 'democratic' a nation is the better off the people are (also the rich and powerfu ).

The PAD is neither for democracy nor good government; the PAD right-wing ultra-nationalist elitists are for themselves, it's fairly simple, really.

[didivolk]

What shall I say dear?

No complaints here. It should of been done a long time ago. Ex-generals who entice coups and want appointed governments dont deserve the right to be free. Let him rot in jail with the rest of the PAD hate provoking leadership, although I doubt he will ever stay there for long...

[didivolk]

Well done bit dry.

perm_dis ---

can you try that again? I couldn't make out what you were trying to say ... seriously!

regarding your final statement, when the politicians break down the checks and balances and change the laws and even the country's charter at will, well law has no value at all.

where to begin? what is your standard of knowledge? i will try PAD style education.

Chamlong Srimuang, the now arrested moralist is a former teacher and mentor of Thaksin. Chamlong has a vision full of highest moral and ethics, he want instill that to the people, or let's say dictate everybody the right and wrongs. chamlong dharma sect ideas include that do-good, all for the nation and strong leadership as role model with strong power to install the better morals. as good leader was thaksin choosen (chamlong proxy) dharma acts have been one tamboon - one product, the "social order" campaign, devotion to the nation, thaksin, the "good leader", ask his people to hold vegetarian diet weeks to clean the body. the propaganda, thaksin the family man, thaksin always smile, pictures of him everywhere, dharma brainwash of the "good leader". and all people together. all the grass root people have taken part.

but thaksin was also a business man, semi liberal. to liberal for chamlong. he change his horse and became PAD cult muppet player. the idea of the good is now called "New Politics" still irrational becaused the believe in "good leadership". such ideas will fail sooner or later, a ideal state ruled by philosophers, wise persons who accepts the power thrust upon him by the people who are wise enough to choose a good master (Plato) doesn't work. a unfree closed society that leads to totalitarianism (Popper).

"The ability to vote a bad government out of office is enough. That is democracy"(Popper) politicans can become corrupt. control them, don't give them to much power. minimize the state, privatisation, let the people the power of choice (Friedman) to choose by themself what is good for them. and not dictated by "Thinkers" like Chamlong. to cancel corruption the Milton Friedman motto: 'trying to do good with spending other people's money on other people doesn't work' fits here well. i am not recommending to install the whole "Friedman" here, but that is a direction to go and not the opposite way like "New Politics" is dreaming of.

do-gooders go home, if you come out with a mob, swinging clubs, disturb the urban peace, the political and social freedom, because you ego head think to know how to do-better - you go to jail.

anyway, thank you for the show.

about what point and paragraph of a junta constitution, the miitary the country's charter, you wanna nutpicking?

Topic is Chamlong, does he have any good offer?......seriously!

Well thanks for clearing that up for us then.

[hammered]

See we manage to link US politcs into this thread along with the other usual stuff.

Anyway back to business.

Lets just look at who this development favours:

Pro-negotiation people - er obviously No as the talks have collapsed as predicted

Thaksin - er definitely Yes as negotiations mean he aint coming back

PAD - er Yes and No. Yes as they get a sudden boost. No as one way to rid the country of Thaksin (negotiations) disappears

The bureaucracy - er No they want to avoid open conflict and the destruction of the negotiations increases the risk of this

The police - Yes and No. They have saved some recently lost face but they now look entirely like the political tool of Thaksin (well lest be honest they always were;))

The people - No. Chances of increased conflict doesnt actualy benfit ordinary people but then again this vicious little power struggle between elements of the elite isnt about the people anyway.

The courts - Yes and No. Their role as fair arbiters is again enhanced. The problem is the politcal charge of treason. Quite how they deal with will be interesting.

PM Somchai - Yes and No. His standing with the uber Thaksinistas will have risen with this little stunt. However, he is now analysed as playing a dangerous double game. His standing as any kind of honest broker has gone.

PPP - who knows. Some have this down as a power struggle in the PPP between hawks and doves. Anyway for now the hawks have the upper hand and full blown conflict can be returend to. Expect the constitution ammnedment to unfetter lord Thaksin and his servators to come next maybe hidden in some knid of politcal reform thingy

Edited to add: by the way guys interesting to see everything analysed in terms of western philosophy. Eastern philosophy tends to have taken a very different route to that in the west. Maybe someone would like to analyse with some oriental philosophical analysis. Anyway sorry to interject on the philosophy classes

Edited October 6, 2008 by hammered

[didivolk]

May I change that a little bit

There is just the educated greedy upper class against (a corrupt ?) legal government. 'PAD' Party of anti Democrats as a fore front. Vote buying my ass. The ' PAD' pays serious money for the sit in.

Chamlong's got the guns, Money, and right-wing ultra-nationalist Thai-Chinese PAD behind him and is undoubtedly being well taken care of at the moment. No need to shed tears for the man...

"Thai-Chinese PAD"? --- am I missing something? Wasn't it Thaksin that is Thai Chinese? Perhaps you mean urban,educated Thais

The "Sons of Chinese" have never been fans of Thaksin and have most recently aligned themselves with the right-wing ultra-nationalist PAD elitists.

Thaksin is Chinese, Samak is, Somchai is, have a look at PPP, many have chinese descent.

Chamlong, Sondhi as well.

There is no Chinese against Thais Nationalism. There is just the educated middle class against a corrupt illegal government. Meanwhile also joined by many other groups of the society, like most of the southern people, labor unions, academics farmers, etc etc.. Sure you'll also find there right wing, left wing, nationalists, monarchist, beside PPP fans you'll find almost everything there.

[toybits]

Why was Gen. Chamlong allowed to cast his vote when he has no respect for the electoral system???

[animatic]

Absolutely disgusting that such a criminal was allowed to vote first before hauled off to prison!

Guess you are now so happy - will be able to get your jollies now for a week or two.

Another Busch supporter perhaps?

So they like Busch Beer, is that a crime.

Not as good as Singha, but better than Bud.

If you mean GW Bush, that's a different kettle of squid.

[didivolk]

My ass millions of 'PAD' supporters . Where do u live ???? Millions of 'PPP' and still big T supporters yes.

Like it or not. All of the Farangs here are from 'democratic' countries. How you can write all this crap and clap hands for right wing thugs like 'PAD' . Watch 'Sonthis ATV'. Disgusting.

Pierrot,

Huh?

Where are you getting these ideas and opinions?

Why is it over for the PAD?

What makes you think Prem 'sanctioned' any deal?

What makes you think the current government is here to stay?

Though it does appear that the army did not follow Samak's orders, what makes you think the police are not doing as the current government asks?

etc etc etc

I can see several reasons for the most recent events and I have NO CLUE as to the validity of any of those thoughts.

1) This works to PAD's benefit to escalate things because since Samak's demise on the political scene things had stagnated.

2) The PPP thought that removing the bosses of the PAD from daily contact with the crowds that they would dissipate (truly silly thinking)

What a lot who support the government miss is that it is not really about the demo in GH but about the millions of sympathsiers all over the country that PAD has. How do the government bring these people back into the fold? Certainly the politcal charges like treason just work the other way. You can get away with politically intimidating opponents through charges but the charges must be criminal and not politcal in nature for this to work. Charges like treason just stir opponents up. It will be intereting to see how the courts handle this.

The other thing that a lot miss is that in a pluralistic democracy everybody including minorites need to accept the rules for the game to work. Pluralistic democracies virtually always return a government from a minority of the electorate (for example PPP gained 41% of the 70% turnout) for this to work the government once elcted has to accept that it now acts for all the people and not just those who voted for it and that they must protect minorities. In return those who voted for the losing side accepts the winning of a government elected by a minority of the electroate, and vice versa. Right now the problem is the government never accept that they represent anyone than those who voted for them and a lot of those that didnt vote for them wont accept them as the government. It is not helped by the truly horrible cabinets and utter ineptmness of the recent governments either, and of course the horribly low esteem in which politicans are held - somewhere under drug addicts, whores and thieves.

[animatic]

Absolutely disgusting that such a criminal was allowed to vote first before hauled off to prison!

Guess you are now so happy - will be able to get your jollies now for a week or two.

Another Busch supporter perhaps?

OBAMA in 2008!!!

Let the right-wing ultra-nationalist PAD generals support their crash and burn "fighter" pilot John McCain!

You clearly are making blanket assumptions.

Seems we have two more new posters with the same old arguments almost verbatim.

How anyone can support allowing Thaksin to jigger the constitution to avoid his crimes

and control the 'legitimate' government from abroad and call this acceptable democracy

beggers understanding.

I haven't found America to have a properly working democracy for some time now.

I dislike the kleptocracy there in the same way I dislike Thaksin's shenanagins here.

Edited October 6, 2008 by animatic