Applying For Thai Citizenship

[Arkady]

One thing that might put off some PR holders is that you have to apply for citizenship to Special Branch and be investigated by them for subversive political or criminal activities. This sounds somewhat more intimidating than applying for PR to the Immigration Bureau, even though it is also a part of the police. Is it possible that the police will try to find something in an applicant's background, in order to shake them down and make them end up worse off than if they had just been content to remain a PR? One story I heard was about a guy in the hotel trade in Phuket who had stopped working for a couple of years after getting PR. Then he went back to work and collected his three years tax receipts and submitted his citizenship application in Phuket. The police there apparently checked his employment record since his arrival in Thailand and tried to make out that he must have been working illegally during his unemployed period and he was forced to pay tax on a notional salary that he had not earned. The alleged non-payment of tax would no doubt have condemned his application to be permanently under review. Other PRs may have bought a house through their companies or wives or girlfriends and may be concerned that will be investigated, maybe resulting in cancellation of their PR or worse. How aggressive is the Special Branch investigation in Bangkok? Are they normally on the applicant's side or do they look for trouble?

Another question that occurs to me is how high a salary they are really looking for and what size company do they think an applicant should be working for? In the earlier thread, dbrenn said he thought they were looking for salaries above the minimum which is B80k or B40k for those with a Thai wife which I agree makes sense. They may have a cut off point i.e. reject anyone under B150k or B200k, unless there are other mitigating circumstances, without publicly announcing that. Thai government departments like to issue internal guidelines that are stricter than the actual law to avoid having to consider any border line cases. Regarding company size an Immigration general told me in the 90s that they routinely rejected all PR applicants working for companies with the minimum capital of B2 million required for a work permit as they had quietly set an internal minimum of B5 million. Apparently those applying from B2 million companies were never told the reason for their rejection and many applied again with the same result. Maybe this also applies to citizenship applications.

Re documentation. How hard it is to get all of this? I heard that Immigration has got much tougher on PR applicants e.g. they now require Por Ngor Dor 91 or 90 notarized by the Revenue Dept and educational certficates notarized by embassies etc. The language test for PR has got harder too and now includes a panel interview with questions like "Describe your contribution to Thai society", whereas it was previously just a simple multiple choice test that applicants with little or no knowledge of Thai could pass. Does all of this now apply to citizenship applications too?

[dbrenn]

One thing that might put off some PR holders is that you have to apply for citizenship to Special Branch and be investigated by them for subversive political or criminal activities.

They do check you out, but at no time did I ever get the impression that they were trying to catch me out. I'm not sure how your friend got all three years' tax receipts, given that he had not been working for two years. It seems to me that he was not eligible to apply and got caught out, and that he may have been at fault for claiming to have an unbroken employement record. I would not recommend applying for citizenship for anyone who has to misrepresent his past - like you say, they do check.

Another question that occurs to me is how high a salary they are really looking for and what size company do they think an applicant should be working for?

I did get the impression that they were looking for more than the minimum here. When I asked them how likely my application was to be successful, they did highlight the fact that I was on a good salary as something that would work in my favour. I think the same unwritten rule applies here as in PR - you should be comfortably over the minimum salary requirements. I was working for a large company at the time too, but I do know of people who got citizenship who were working for small companies,

Re documentation. How hard it is to get all of this? I heard that Immigration has got much tougher on PR applicants e.g. they now require Por Ngor Dor 91 or 90 notarized by the Revenue Dept and educational certficates notarized by embassies etc. The language test for PR has got harder too and now includes a panel interview with questions like "Describe your contribution to Thai society", whereas it was previously just a simple multiple choice test that applicants with little or no knowledge of Thai could pass. Does all of this now apply to citizenship applications too?

I did not have to get anything notarised - all I had to do was produce the originals for verification against the copies. Maybe they do the checks themselves. As in PR, they will only accept applications that are complete againt every point of the checklist with not a single item missing.

[dbrenn]

Thai Royal Anthem

http://www.nationalanthems.us/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1096011874

That's the one - practice it in the cinema. The hardest part about applying for Thai citizenship is keeping a straight face when you are in front of the very sombre selection commitee, clutching a microphone and trying to sing in tune ...

[TheChiefJustice]

When I did my citizenship interview last July there was no microphone for the singing part of the interview. I was simply asked to sing both songs in front of the four members of the interview panel. Other people awaiting their interviews were also present in the room but luckily were sitting behind me so I could not see their faces as I hit one wrong key after the next!

[samran]

When I did my citizenship interview last July there was no microphone for the singing part of the interview. I was simply asked to sing both songs in front of the four members of the interview panel. Other people awaiting their interviews were also present in the room but luckily were sitting behind me so I could not see their faces as I hit one wrong key after the next!

Hi- How long was it between your application at special branch and your interview. Have you been approved?

[TheChiefJustice]

Applied Special Branch - May 2007

Papers Submitted by Special Branch to Interior Ministry - August 2007

Interior Ministry Interview - July 2008

Approval - Pending

[samran]

Applied Special Branch - May 2007

Papers Submitted by Special Branch to Interior Ministry - August 2007

Interior Ministry Interview - July 2008

Approval - Pending

Many thanks. I think we submitted my wifes application about April/May 08. We had an almost imediate informal (and I suspect screening) interview with Interior Ministry officals in about July 08 (at KFC Victory Monument of all places). And then silence.

If there is any rhyme or reason to the process, we might be lucky and hear something by mid year.

Did they give you much notice about the interview?

Edited February 11, 2009 by samran

[TheChiefJustice]

I'm afraid there is neither rhyme nor reason involved in the process. I received the Ministry of Interior letter on July 7th. The interview was the next day at 9am. I was very lucky I check my mail every day - otherwise I would have missed the interview.

Complete silence since July 8, 2008.

Edited February 11, 2009 by TheChiefJustice

[samran]

I'm afraid there is neither rhyme nor reason involved in the process. I received the Ministry of Interior letter on July 7th. The interview was the next day at 9am. I was very lucky I check my mail every day - otherwise I would have missed the interview.

Complete silence since July 8, 2008.

Our being told about the screening interview was a phone call the day before on my mobile, and I thought they were having us on to report to KFC at the Victory monument. We almost didn't go and thought it was a scam for some under the table payments.

Fortunately I had to go to special branch the same day and the guy who processed our application told me they did this to do the informal interviews in a 'relaxed surrounding'. Totally off the wall...

Edited February 11, 2009 by samran

[sabaijai]

[...] he may have been at fault for claiming to have an unbroken employement record. I would not recommend applying for citizenship for anyone who has to misrepresent his past - like you say, they do check.

That makes sense. Other than making a false statement, though, does the application for citizenship have anything to with one's work record? In other words is a retired foreigner with PR still eligible to apply?

[Arkady]

Thanks for your replies dbrenn. Apparently the guy in Phuket did have the genuine tax receipts from working for the three years before applying but had been unemployed in Phuket for a spell before that and after becoming a PR. I think the law just states that five years residence, as evidenced by the red book, and three years' tax receipts are required, not that applicants should have worked and paid tax continuously since coming to Thailand. Actually on a smaller scale something like this happened to me in Bangkok when I applied for my tax ID to get my first work permit. The Revenue Dept official looked through my passport and argued that I had visited Thailand rather frequently in the year before moving here and on the basis of those passport stamps she decided on her own authority and with no genuine evidence that I had been working here and charged me personal income tax as if I had been working in Thailand full time for a year, whereas I had actually spent just a few days a month in Thailand and half the trips were in fact holidays. I was told I had the right to appeal but was advised by a lawyer that I would waste a lot of time and it might get worse, if I tried to fight it. Knowing what they are capable of doing on a whim has made me rather wary of the Revenue Dept.

In another thread Chatette said that Special Branch sent under cover officers to investigate her which sounded rather intimidating but she didn't report any problems from them except that the guy set all the dogs in her soi off barking.

Documentation doesn't sound too much of a problem, if they just want copies certified by the applicant and sight of the original. At least I suppose you can go back again, if something is missing as there always is. Immigration now sounds more demanding of PR applicants.

Calling for interview with one day's notice could be a problem for many people, particularly, if the notice is sent by snail mail which many no longer check every day as it is now mainly bills and statements.

Long periods of silence with no news must be rather depressing.

Undoubtedly the thing that I would most enjoy about the process would be singing the national and royal anthems. It must really be an effort to do so while keeping a straight face and not hamming up the unaccompanied vocals. I knew one guy who was virtually tone deaf and could hardly sing a note who actually failed the singing test and was told to go away and practice and wait for another interview. The next time he pleaded to bring his own backing music which they allowed and he passed and eventually got his nationalilty about eight years after his initial application but sadly died a few months later.

Do most naturalized Thais get visas when flying direct to countries Thai passports need visas for but their other passports don't? Not getting a visa means disclosing your other passport to immigration when you leave Thailand and making use of another nationality is grounds for revocation of Thai nationality for naturalized Thais. The process of getting visas for Thai passports in many Western embassies is extremely offputting to say the least but I know one at least naturalized Thai who does just that to keep his use of his other nationality away from prying eyes. Some may see this as overkill as the authorities don't seem interested in enforcing that part of the act in run of the mill cases. The only case of nationality revocation I can remember in recent years was the Burmese associate of Khun Sa who jumped bail on a drugs charge a few years ago. In that case Special Branch could find no trace of his original application for nationality and but said he might have applied outside Bangkok. There was no comment from the Interior Ministry which presumably would have known but, in any event it seemed that he might have obtained a Thai ID card fraudulently as well as jumped bail which is fair enough. On the other hand I can understand that some might not want to put their trust in the authorities not suddenly deciding to enforce pieces of obscure legislation e.g. Thaksin's revival of the revolutionary decree that prohibits women from going out after dark without a male chaperone that bit the dust rapidly under heavy fire from womens' and gay rights groups.

[cushendall]

I will be applying for PR soon. Eventually, if it makes sense, for TC aswell.

Could anyone tell me if there are any major 'western' countires that do not allow dual citizenship for people not living in their home country?

I know that the UK and Australia allows dual nationality. Not sure about the others though - you should check

Germany, does not alloy dual nationally, most of the rest of the world does.

[Maestro]

...use of another nationality is grounds for revocation of Thai nationality for naturalized Thais...

What makes you say that? Which Section of the Thai Nationality Act are you referring to?

www.burmalibrary.org/docs3/THAILAND%27s_Nationality_Act.htm

--

Maestro

[samran]

Section 19. The Minister is empowered to revoke Thai nationality of a person who acquires Thai nationality by naturalisation if it appears that:

(1) The naturalisation was effected by concealment of facts or making any statement false in material particular;

(2) There is evidence to show that he still makes use of his former nationality;

(3) He commits any act prejudicial to the security or conflicting the interests of the State, or amounting to an insult to the nation;

(4) He commits any act contrary to public order or good morals;

(5) He has resided abroad without having a domicile in Thailand for more than five years;

(6) He still retains the nationality of the country at war with Thailand.

The revocation of Thai nationality under this section may extend to children of a person whose Thai nationality is revoked in case such children are not sui juris and acquire Thai nationality under Section 12, paragraph two and the Minister shall, after the order for revocation of Thai nationality has been given, shall submit the matter to the King for information.

I guess the minister really has to have it in for you though. Given that (I assume) that there is no other government officer who is entitled to strip you of your citizenship (in thailand it appears it really has to be the minister himself who makes the final call on granting/stripping of citizenship) then it is an unlikey occurance. I suspect this section of the act was put in as a potential 'gotcha' put there to get rid of really bad apples who managed to get Thai citizenship.

[dbrenn]

Applied Special Branch - May 2007

Papers Submitted by Special Branch to Interior Ministry - August 2007

Interior Ministry Interview - July 2008

Approval - Pending

The long wait is the most frustrating part. For a while it looks like things are progressing, then, after the Interior Ministry visit, everything just seems to stop while your aplication sits in the Interior Minister's inbox. Nothing you can do but wait - you will get a letter once he signs it, then another wait for His Majesty to sanction your application, and finally another wait for the Interior Minister to publish the results in the Interior Ministry notices (a book that is released from time to time, containing among other enacted laws a list of citizenship applicants including you). Then the special branch give you your certificate of naturalsation.

Rather frustrating, but all worth it in the end and you don't have to do anything more. The whole process took up about one working week of my time, so not too bad over three years.

[dbrenn]

[...] he may have been at fault for claiming to have an unbroken employement record. I would not recommend applying for citizenship for anyone who has to misrepresent his past - like you say, they do check.

That makes sense. Other than making a false statement, though, does the application for citizenship have anything to with one's work record? In other words is a retired foreigner with PR still eligible to apply?

You do need to be working with tax receipts over three consecutive years running up to your application. Not necessary to be in thr same job - only that you have pais the tax and have a work permit both at the time of applying and when you appear at the Interior Ministry.

[dbrenn]

Section 19. The Minister is empowered to revoke Thai nationality of a person who acquires Thai nationality by naturalisation if it appears that:

(2) There is evidence to show that he still makes use of his former nationality;

The revocation of Thai nationality under this section may extend to children of a person whose Thai nationality is revoked in case such children are not sui juris and acquire Thai nationality under Section 12, paragraph two and the Minister shall, after the order for revocation of Thai nationality has been given, shall submit the matter to the King for information.

I guess the minister really has to have it in for you though. Given that (I assume) that there is no other government officer who is entitled to strip you of your citizenship (in thailand it appears it really has to be the minister himself who makes the final call on granting/stripping of citizenship) then it is an unlikey occurance. I suspect this section of the act was put in as a potential 'gotcha' put there to get rid of really bad apples who managed to get Thai citizenship.

Right - they are never going to go to all that trouble. Besides, if you travel to Thailand on your Thai passport you are not 'making use of your former nationality' while in Thailand and under the juristiction of the Thai Nationality Act.

[dbrenn]

the law just states that five years residence, as evidenced by the red book, and three years' tax receipts are required, not that applicants should have worked and paid tax continuously since coming to Thailand.

a few days a month in Thailand and half the trips were in fact holidays. I was told I had the right to appeal but was advised by a lawyer that I would waste a lot of time and it might get worse, if I tried to fight it. Knowing what they are capable of doing on a whim has made me rather wary of the Revenue Dept.

There is no requirement to have a continuous unbroken employment record when applying for citizenship - I had changed jobs but I did have the three years' tax returns and a current work permit when I applied for citizenship.

Regards your tax assessment, your lawyer was wrong - I once had an unfair assessment, appealed it, and it was immediately reduced. The tax office tries it on sometimes, and what they are usually looking for is a bribe to reduce the amount ....

In another thread Chatette said that Special Branch sent under cover officers to investigate her which sounded rather intimidating but she didn't report any problems from them except that the guy set all the dogs in her soi off barking.

The Interior Ministry sent three people to my house. They were very nice and I took them to lunch.

Calling for interview with one day's notice could be a problem for many people, particularly, if the notice is sent by snail mail which many no longer check every day as it is now mainly bills and statements.

I had a couple of weeks' notice - agreed that one day would be rather inconvenient. The best way to communicate with the officials is to get a cell phone number and regularly call to follow up. They then stary calling you immediately they are aware of any news. It could be that they were doing the person who had a days notice a favour by making up the numbers at the last minute.

Do most naturalized Thais get visas when flying direct to countries Thai passports need visas for but their other passports don't?

You don't need visas. When travelling by air you swap passports in mid flight, leaving Thailand on your Thai passport and then using the passport of your original country to enter a country (that would normally impose visa restrictions on Thais) visa free. You show both passports when checking in so that the airline knows that you have a right to enter your destination country with no visa.

At land borders you use your Thai passport to enjoy visa free travel to places like Laos and Vietnam - you get a lot of funny looks, but I've never had a problem.

Edited February 11, 2009 by dbrenn

[dbrenn]

When I did my citizenship interview last July there was no microphone for the singing part of the interview. I was simply asked to sing both songs in front of the four members of the interview panel. Other people awaiting their interviews were also present in the room but luckily were sitting behind me so I could not see their faces as I hit one wrong key after the next!

You got off lightly! When I did mine we were taken one by one into a small lecture theatre. There were two rows of seats around a large horeshoe shaped table, with the big guy sat at the back facing me, with a row all to hiimself. All his minions were seated along the two sides of the room and I was stood at the front.

Upon entering, I had to show my work permit, certificate of residence and alien registration book to the clerk on the door. Then they gave me a microphone so that the people at the back could hear. They asked me a few questions, then I sang the songs (rather out of tune), then the big guy thanked me and I left.

There were no other candidates watching me though ...

[skippybangkok]

Regards your tax assessment, your lawyer was wrong - I once had an unfair assessment, appealed it, and it was immediately reduced. The tax office tries it on sometimes, and what they are usually looking for is a bribe to reduce the amount ....

Would be my take on it. Stand your ground with the Revenue department, they are good at bluffs to extort $$.

[Arkady]

[...] he may have been at fault for claiming to have an unbroken employement record. I would not recommend applying for citizenship for anyone who has to misrepresent his past - like you say, they do check.

That makes sense. Other than making a false statement, though, does the application for citizenship have anything to with one's work record? In other words is a retired foreigner with PR still eligible to apply?

The answer to Sabaijai's question is no, a retired foreigner with PR is not eligible to apply. The Nationality Act stipulates in Section 10.3 that applicants must "have a regular occupation". Interior Ministry regulations further define this to mean a specific minimum remuneration which was Baht 7,000 a month when I first looked at it (even though at the time this wasn't enough to get a work permit) and is now Baht 80,000 for those not married to Thais. I suppose they are concerned that new citizens should be able to support themselves through employment in Thailand which they can easily verify. In theory a retired billionaire PR would have to set up a business and employ himself in it for at least three years, if he wanted to apply.

[TheChiefJustice]

The best way to communicate with the officials is to get a cell phone number and regularly call to follow up. They then stary calling you immediately they are aware of any news. It could be that they were doing the person who had a days notice a favour by making up the numbers at the last minute.

Dbrenn, I have been thinking about contacting the Interior Ministry to find out the status of my application but I do not want to be seen as a "pest". Did you contact the Interior Ministry people directly or was it your Special Branch contacts with whom you were liaising during the long wait?

[dbrenn]

The best way to communicate with the officials is to get a cell phone number and regularly call to follow up. They then stary calling you immediately they are aware of any news. It could be that they were doing the person who had a days notice a favour by making up the numbers at the last minute.

Dbrenn, I have been thinking about contacting the Interior Ministry to find out the status of my application but I do not want to be seen as a "pest". Did you contact the Interior Ministry people directly or was it your Special Branch contacts with whom you were liaising during the long wait?

Hi CJ. The most annoying aspect about the whole Thai citizenship application process is that the Interior Ministry is a black hole. Even the nice people at the Special Branch have no idea when an application will be signed by the Interior Minister, and I did not have any contacts that high up in the Interior ministry to help me out. The people at Special Branch did say that there is a degree of queue jumping at the Interior Ministry by those in the know, but that such people would have to have connections to the Interior minister himself or a similar level. Special Branch, it seems, have no influence over this, and are not able to lobby at this level.

It's very unsettling to not know if and when your application will progress through the Interior Minister, His Majesty, and back through the Interior Minister, but all you can do is sit it out. You are still a PR in the process.

Edited February 12, 2009 by dbrenn

[Arkady]

Regards your tax assessment, your lawyer was wrong - I once had an unfair assessment, appealed it, and it was immediately reduced. The tax office tries it on sometimes, and what they are usually looking for is a bribe to reduce the amount ....

Would be my take on it. Stand your ground with the Revenue department, they are good at bluffs to extort $$.

You are probably both right and I am sure I would not just pay up if it happened today. They probably would have dropped it as they had absolutely no evidence and I was genuinely working and paying tax elsewhere. The Revenue Dept official actually claimed that Thailand had no double taxation treaties with any country, so it probably was a low level scam. At the time my company was getting fed up with the delays of Thai officialdom as we needed an alien business licence which the Commerce Ministry had made us wait five months for, even though our paperwork was perfectly in order. The last thing they wanted was for me to get bogged down in a case against corrupt government officials, so they just told me to pay the tax and reimbursed me.

[Arkady]

Do most naturalized Thais get visas when flying direct to countries Thai passports need visas for but their other passports don't?

You don't need visas. When travelling by air you swap passports in mid flight, leaving Thailand on your Thai passport and then using the passport of your original country to enter a country (that would normally impose visa restrictions on Thais) visa free. You show both passports when checking in so that the airline knows that you have a right to enter your destination country with no visa.

At land borders you use your Thai passport to enjoy visa free travel to places like Laos and Vietnam - you get a lot of funny looks, but I've never had a problem.

So I guess you have to show your foreign passport to Thai Immigration on the way out as well as to the airline, if you are going to a country that Thais need a visa to. Don't they usually check that?

Re the provision to revoke nationality of naturalised Thais making use of their former nationality, it is hard to know what this really means or why it is in the Act. The Act is rather ambivalent about dual nationality. It seems to imply that dual nationality is not quite OK, here and in some other places, but stops short of saying that having another nationality is a crime punishable by either a 500 baht fine or 20 years in prison. It may be a hang over from earlier versions of the Act when there may have been stricter provisions against dual nationality and they may just have wished to keep their options open to easily get rid of some one who is viewed as a nuisance. Anyway naturalised Thais are a very small group to target and hopefully they never will be. This provision would not be useful in dealing with Southerners that have dual Thai and Malaysian nationality because they are mainly Thais by birth that have obtained Malaysian nationality fraudulently, as Malaysia doesn't allow dual nationality but seems to turn a blind eye in the case of the Southern Thai muslims. Thailand can only try to push Malaysia to do something about the issue. Revocation for using another nationality seems to require a committee to advise the minister:

"Section 20. A Committee shall be set up consisting of the Under Secretary of State for Interior as chairman, a representative of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, the Director-General of the Department of Administrative Affairs, the Director-General of the Police Department and the Director-General of the Public Prosecution Department as members, having the duty to consider the revocation of Thai nationality under Sections 16, 17(1) or 18, 19.

Where circumstances appear with respect to any person that his Thai nationality may be revoked, the competent official shall submit the latter for consideration of the Committee. After consideration, the Committee shall refer its opinion to the Minister for direction."

I wonder if it would take the committee as long to consider the case for revocation as it takes the ministry to consider citizenship applications.

[samran]

Re the provision to revoke nationality of naturalised Thais making use of their former nationality, it is hard to know what this really means or why it is in the Act. The Act is rather ambivalent about dual nationality. It seems to imply that dual nationality is not quite OK, here and in some other places, but stops short of saying that having another nationality is a crime punishable by either a 500 baht fine or 20 years in prison. It may be a hang over from earlier versions of the Act when there may have been stricter provisions against dual nationality and they may just have wished to keep their options open to easily get rid of some one who is viewed as a nuisance.

I had a look at the second revision to the Act recently (published in 1992) which did contain stricter language than the third revision (published also in 1992 - strangely enough!).

For instance the second revision stated that a dual national child must choose between his or her nationalites between ages 20 and 21, and that if no such choice is made, then that child is deemed automatically to have lost their Thai nationality.

The third revision says a dual national child can chose between ages 20 and 21 but now there is no penalty for not - implying that it is OK in that case.

I suspect that the second revision to the act was made in 1992, which must have caught some quite powerful people (with dual nationality) off guard, as the it seems a slightly contradictory third version was then (hurridly?) bought into law, which seems alot more accepting in the concept.

What the third version does do (if you look at it technically) is open up the possibility for some Thai's to hold dual nationality (eg foreign born Thai's who may pick up an automatic foreign citizenship in the process). Once you do that, you effectively discriminate against other Thai nationals if you try and implement loss of citizenship clauses in the third revision to the act...which is why they probably they aren't used as it opens up a possible claim of discrimination under the constitution(?).

[dbrenn]

So I guess you have to show your foreign passport to Thai Immigration on the way out as well as to the airline, if you are going to a country that Thais need a visa to. Don't they usually check that?

Once I was asked by immigration (in addition to the airline) to show my UK passport on the way out in addition to my Thai passport, to check whether I had the right to travel to the UK with no visa. Most times they don't bother. There is no secret that I have another nationality - when I applied for a Thai passport, they also wanted to see my UK passport.

The Act is rather ambivalent about dual nationality. It seems to imply that dual nationality is not quite OK ... may be a hang over from earlier versions of the Act ... keep their options open to easily get rid of some one who is viewed as a nuisance ...

"Section 20. A Committee shall be set up consisting of the Under Secretary of State for Interior as chairman, a representative of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, the Director-General of the Department of Administrative Affairs, the Director-General of the Police Department and the Director-General of the Public Prosecution Department as members, having the duty to consider the revocation of Thai nationality under Sections 16, 17(1) or 18, 19.

Where circumstances appear with respect to any person that his Thai nationality may be revoked, the competent official shall submit the latter for consideration of the Committee. After consideration, the Committee shall refer its opinion to the Minister for direction."

I wonder if it would take the committee as long to consider the case for revocation as it takes the ministry to consider citizenship applications.

What you say is probably true - they are keeping their options open on people who, having been granted citizenship, cause problems. As always, the advice here is to keep a low profile, work hard, and behave in a similar way as you did when you were applying for citizenship.

Having said that, I know a few very long term naturalised Thai citizens, people who are in business and have upset the locals on occasion. Nothing happened. There was never any question of having their rights curtailed or revoked, and they come and go with no fuss at all..

Let's face it, while the Thai Nationality Act is rather ambiguous and there may exist a tiny possibility that a naturalised Thai could conceivably lose his Thai citizenship, assembling a committee comprising the Interior Minister, the Foreign Minister, Chief of Police and all the others necessary for revocation of a citizenship under the Act would only be done under very exceptional circumstances. You would have to piss off someone very high up the food chain. This is Thailand, and if you don't fit in they will always find one way or another to get rid of you. Look what happened to Thaksin ..

Edited February 12, 2009 by dbrenn

[Arkady]

Interesting what you say about the different 1992 revisions to the Act, Samran. I think I have only seen what I presume to the be the third and final version. This seems to dilute a provision obliging dual national children to choose only one nationality on majority, as used to be the case in the US. It is left at half cock as a provision that only really facilitates dual national children who want to get rid of their Thai nationality on reaching majority. Perhaps some males would really like to do this to be sure of avoiding military service, if they are sure they won't live in Thailand but want to visit sometimes. However, as discussed in other threads, this can be achieved by not being on a tabian baan without surrendering Thai nationality. So it seems a redundant provision. Not enforcing a choice of nationalilty on dual national children seems consistent with the more liberal concept of allowing Thai nationality to be passed on to the offspring of a Thai mother and a foreign father which was not permitted before 1992 (if the foreign father was disclosed on the birth certificate). This must have multiplied the number of dual children many times over, including those born overseas whose Thai mothers prior to 1992 would probably not have bothered trying to acquire Thai nationality for them. It would have been rather pointless to open the door to dual nationality so much wider to children, only to bang it shut as soon as they reach majority. Yes, there are quite a lot of influential Thais who are dual nationals or have dual national children and they would certainly not like to see the boat rocked.

I think I am with Dbrenn in thinking that it would not be worth the trouble of applying for visas for countries that can be visited without visa using the other passport, even though I know at least two naturalised Thais who do go through this tedious rigmarole and expense. It is bad enough applying for these visas for the other half. Last time the Oz embassy asked for a photo album of our travels around the world together and we had to postpone our travel date, while the Ozzies took their time admiring our photography.

Now I am dealing with the question of whether to go the trouble of increasing the capital of my company to make it look a bit more substantial, if I decide to go ahead. It is hard to know what criteria they look at. Do you think the Special Branch are able and willing to answer specific questions like this or are they likely to just say submit the application and see how it goes?

[MacWalen]

So here is a question, with PR you have to touch base every 12 months or you lose that status, what about citizenship? Common sense tells me that once you become a citizen you cannot lose it. So say I become a Thai citizen and stay out of Thailand for 5 years and come back after that time, would that be ok?

Edited February 13, 2009 by macwalen

[Mario2008]

THai Nationality Act:

Section 19.

The Minister is empowered to revoke Thai nationality of a person who acquires Thai nationality by naturalization if it appears that:

(1) The naturalization was effected by concealment of facts or making any statement false in material particular;

(2) There is evidence to show that he still makes use of his former nationality;

(3) He commits any act prejudicial to the security or conflicting the interests of the State, or amounting to an insult to the nation;

(4) He commits any act contrary to public order or good morals;

(5) He has resided abroad without having a domicile in Thailand for more than five years;

(6) He still retains the nationality of the country at war with Thailand.

Note that the article says can revoke, it is not automaticaly revoked.