Why Share Our Privacy In This Forum?

[ProThaiExpat]

Many of us are reluctant to share our privacy with the straights that read our posts in this forum with disdain. Here is the argument why we should do it.

EMAIL OF THE DAY: "AndrewSullivan.com, re: Lincoln. I think the problem is that heterosexuals still don't understand that "gay" isn't only about sex. They think of homosexuals as defective straight people with uncontrollable sexual urges, and I guess a flair for drama. They don't understand our emotional orientation towards members of our own sex. They can't identify with this, or else they are scared of it (I'm not sure which). This is the source of the whole problem, I think." I tend to agree. Of course, many heterosexuals have begun to understand. And, as I've said many times, homosexuality is very easy to understand. It is exactly the same as heterosexuality, with the gender reversed. Gays, however, cannot expect straights to understand this all by themselves. It's up to us to explain, and keep explaining. One reason I have written sometimes painful accounts of my own life is not that I enjoy losing privacy, but that I feel it's the only way to get people to understand what I'm actually talking about. Straights who don't understand are not necessarily prejudiced. They're just under-informed. Gay people should spend the bulk of their efforts in the difficult process of informing. And the most integral part of that informing is coming out.

Edited January 12, 2005 by ProThaiExpat

[PeaceBlondie]

When you say, 'keeping our privacy' about our gayness, do you only mean that we have an anonymous identity on this board? I doubt anybody's using their real name, address, identity number, and bank account password.

But we exist here as virtual personas and gay. We discuss in a well moderated forum about things that relate to our identity as homosexuals, and we have other life activities (work, play, etc.) that have little if anything to do with our gender preference.

Anyway, I agree that it's helpful to educate some heterosexuals about some gay things sometimes. My own attempts at converting the blatant homophobes to at least stop trying to kill us, haven't been any more successful than trying to convince my fellow Christians to stop trying to kill their enemies.

[Darknight]

Many of us are reluctant to share our privacy with the straights that read our posts in this forum with disdain

Isn't this the same generalisation in terms as Homophobes use ????

Pot, ketlle, colour?

[ChrisP]

I completely agree with the Andrew Sulllivan note...

I am completely "out" in my life.. both professionally and privately. I'm a University professor in the USA. When I discovered my gay gene... I was encouraged to be "out" by my colleagues, who said "you'll be a good role-model for the students..."

They were right. I also want to join a speakers panel at the University to try and educate people who don't understand what "being gay" REALLY means... and that it's NOT just about sex. My feeling is that if I can change just one person's negative perception of us to something more positive and accepting, then my efforts are worth it.

When I travel, I often strike up conversations with the next passenger, and inevitably at some point the question of "relationships" comes up in some way. Even after 14 years, I still find this is the hardest time for me to "come out".. as they always naturally assume I am straight. I think I find it hard because we are right next to each other, and I cannot avoid or escape any negative feelings from them. However, I have always had a good and positive reaction from my passenger-mate.... maybe I'm lucky. I am always trying to explain how my life and relationships now are almost the same as they were when I was straight... I don't see any difference.

And, as moderator, I would encourage TV members to be "out" here too. If you're nervous about your identity, then use a name that no-one will associate with you.

This board has a LOT of readership... so if you're one of the people who reads the posts, but never adds a reply.. PLEASE jump in.! The water's really not that bad!

ChrisP

[Khutan]

I think you know my opinions;

my concern is drawing attention to someone for no other reason than they are gay.

This has happened a number of times where the one liner - xxxx is gay even though never publicly said or in no interest of the public.

I am still worried about vilification by proxy or third party. Please allow people to be comfortable and do things in their own time, without being pressured.

Peaceblonde;

When you say, 'keeping our privacy' about our gayness, do you only mean that we have an anonymous identity on this board? I doubt anybody's using their real name, address, identity number, and bank account password.

My Pen Name is very close to my real name. So I will stand up and say I happily support the rights and decisions of gay people.

Edited January 12, 2005 by mattnich

[jdinasia]

You mean I shouldn't be using my real name OR listing a website in my profile that has a real pic? Dayaum!

[ProThaiExpat]

Many of us are reluctant to share our privacy with the straights that read our posts in this forum with disdain

Isn't this the same generalisation in terms as Homophobes use ????

Pot, ketlle, colour?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Please note the use of the qualifying adjective "many" when refering to gay posters and the qualiging "straights ...with disdain" phrase. Neither of these references are generalizations as the reference to posters is to a number more than a few but certainly not all as a generalization requires and the straights referrd to are only those straights that read the posts with disdain, a reference that could mean two or two hundered, hardly a generalization.

[Ijustwannateach]

^I agree, though as an additional complication on forums, there are some genuinely homophobic posters but also homophobic-acting trolls. Distinguishing between the two can be tricky, sometimes.

Another problem with western homophobia is that frequently people who have the worst cases of it are also closet cases. In that case, it's not simply a matter of discussing things rationally, but also dealing with their inwardly-directed self-loathing- a difficult chore even under the best of conditions, which a forum is not.

But every effort is worth it!

"Steven"

[jdinasia]

I think this is a great Topic that should not be in the 'Gay people in Thailand' catagory, but should be in 'General topics.'

I am straight and my best friend here in Greece is gay. I have never asked him anything about his 'private' life or his preferences. I accept him as the friend he has proved himself to be over the past 10 years. Unfortunately that is not always the case.

I think a lot of the problems occur due to 'misunderstanding' and a forum is a good place to clear up many misunderstandings.

Prejudices come from a lack of understanding, we tend to fear/hate those things which we do not understand. Any further understanding will lessen prejudices and ignorances of what 'gay' really means. Sharing privacy definitely helps here.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Cool ravisher! Always nice to have friends that are "str8 but not narrow" (minded).

Just curious though. Do you talk to your str8 friends about the "stuff" in their lives?

[ChrisP]

Many of us are reluctant to share our privacy with the straights that read our posts in this forum with disdain

I honestly don't think PTExpat was saying that ALL straight people read our posts "with disdain"... they don't. But some clearly (and unfortunately) do......

Gay education, or being more visible, or more "out" here, probably isn't going to help that disdain either.

ChrisP

[PeaceBlondie]

Now, there's food for thought. How much of our lifestyle relates to gender preference? Theoretically, none. But in practicality, much. No, straight people's lives don't relate around their heterosexuality exactly, but it's intertwined in their identity. They couldn't stop talking about their sexual orientation if they tried, and they don't try. Yet many straights get uncomfortable or offended when we mention "my boyfriend." It's not an even playing field, although it sometimes educates straights to turn the tables and ask them to use similar logic in the other direction.

[Pie Boy]

I think this is a great Topic that should not be in the 'Gay people in Thailand' catagory, but should be in 'General topics.'

I am straight and my best friend here in Greece is gay. I have never asked him anything about his 'private' life or his preferences. I accept him as the friend he has proved himself to be over the past 10 years. Unfortunately that is not always the case.

I think a lot of the problems occur due to 'misunderstanding' and a forum is a good place to clear up many misunderstandings.

Prejudices come from a lack of understanding, we tend to fear/hate those things which we do not understand. Any further understanding will lessen prejudices and ignorances of what 'gay' really means. Sharing privacy definitely helps here.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The very nature of best friends mean you can share and discuss 'private' aspects of your lives.Surely the point is that it doesn't matter where your sexuality lies, friends are friends.

Excluding areas of conversation would never happen for my small group of very close friends and long may it be so.However this group are all hetrosexual.

Having read some posts on this sub forum in the past , I must admit to sometimes feeling like I am intruding however I am certain it has increased my awareness of some of the issues that the gay community face.

I'd hate to be called a homophobe but I am also honest enough to know that if I considered every social or emotional occurance that we may face in life , I couldn't guarantee that I would treat a straight guy the same way as a gay guy.Recent experiance has already taught me this.

[ProThaiExpat]

I don't really understand what makes a gay person gay... I think only 'being' gay one would fully understand. I guess it would be just as difficult for me to try to make a person understand, that has always been gay, why I am straight.

Do you really mean this or do you mean how it feels to be straight or gay?

I doubt anyone knows "why" their sexulality is the way it is, gay or straight.

Answer this question "Why are your straight?"

Straights are rarely challenged to answer this question, while gays are all the time. Yet, gays don't have a clue, in my view, why they are the way they are.

The number of theories of why people are gay abound, I can think of seven right off the bat. But since straights are considered "normal", their reason for being so only is explored as a subtext of exploring why people are gay, or said another way, why gays are not straight.

I certainly have explored the subject at length and have come up with a theory that is an amalgamation of three or four of the theories. But am I just shopping theories to which I might identify?

Now they speak of a gay gene!! Can we determine why some people hate broccoli? I doubt it.

Before I came out, I was, as far as I knew, straight and I had no more clue why I was straight as I do now, know why I am gay. Just trying to be true to myself and honest in what I like.

[PeaceBlondie]

Good discussion. I'm sure this has been thought of before, but imagine this scene:

Straight guy walks into psychotherapy office, "I need to see a therapist, please."

Receptionist or therapist: "Sir, what seems to be your psychological problem."

Straight guy: "Well....I don't like to tell this to everybody, but...I think my sexual preference or orientation is...uhhhh...straight. You know, 'heterosexual.'"

Therapist: "Oh, sir, we'd love to take your money, but the professional therapist directory doesn't have a billing code for that as a mental illness. You'll have to solve your problem by yourself. Why not visit a gay sauna?"

Straights don't have to defend their orientation; nobody's bugging them or bashing them about it. They don't even have to think about it. They don't understand their own orientation well. That may be a contributing factor to divorce rates.

[PeaceBlondie]

Ravisher suggested this:

Your imagine this scene, reminded me of this one:

So, you think you are having a bad day... Imagine this... You are a siamese twin, joined at the waist with your brother. You are straight, he is gay. Tonight he has a hot date, and you only have one ass. unsure.gif wink.gif

Well, how many penises and mouths do they have between them?

[ChrisP]

Interesting how we didn't get ONE flame or inane comment on this Topic.. despite it being widely read elsewhere....

ChrisP

[The_Eye_Of_Sauron]

Why do you feel it better to have a separate sub-forum, whose basic distinguishing factor is only one factor alone - gender preference in relationship matters?

Well, perhaps its an atavistic herding instinct - (in the same way that smokers like to be round other smokers, instead of people frowing at them).

This has gone on since time immemorial, as long as life has been on the planet.

The corollary is, that if one elects to form a group - for security-in-numbers, companionship, togetherness......then the downside is a ghetto-mentality, that all of a sudden presents itself to the mainstream as an alternative - and people's reptilian aft-brains are chemically antagonistic to change.

It does seem as though every topic discussed here has a subtext - no not subtext - its a quite overt theme - of sex/matters of the heart. If you present it in such a unidimensional way, that that is how others may perceive it.

TEOS

[Ijustwannateach]

1. Well, it *is* about sex and matters of the heart. No, really!

2. What are you suggesting? We should have threads on the gay nature of paying telephone bills in Bangkok, here in the gay forum?

3. Isn't this forum itself based on the (sometimes restrictive) subject of "matters pertaining to Thailand?" Why have forums like this? It's just "atavistic herding instinct," "ghettoizing" us folks with interest in Thailand all here, perhaps? Why have forums devoted to specific topics at all? Why not just one big forum in the world, called "The Forum?"

4. Perhaps, if you reflect on it a moment, Thai forums exist because they have limited audiences and are meant for the convenience of those who do (and those who don't necessarily) have interest in the topic. In the same way, the gay Thailand subforum exists for those who do (and who don't) have interest in THAT topic.

5. That you are posting this here in the gay forum (and presumably not in other forums) seems to show you have a special interest here in questioning the existence and subject matter of this forum. Being unidimensional, that interest says something about you, which I probably don't need to spell out.

Ta!

"Steven"

[The_Eye_Of_Sauron]

Well I agree with your points 1-4. The Thaivisa Forum and by extension entire Farang community in Thailand is a de facto 'ghetto'. The clustering is a natural homo sapien reaction

Your point (5), if meant literally, is just too ludicrous for words, and does you shame. The "oooh you're one of them'"(or rather 'one of us') is just the sort of silly attitude that I expect from a crew cut jock.

...However, in equal measure, I detect some post modernist irony in those words also, ...in which case - touche !

[ChrisP]

The gay in Thailand subforum exists for those who do (and who don't) have interest in THAT topic.

TEOS.... Yes.. we are a sub-forum, and (obviously) a minority. The majority of the Forum members aren't usually too interested to hear about gay issues... and have, at times, been very "vocal" and unpleasant about it.

So that's why we exist.

As to the one-dimensionality of the posts.. I don't think we are.. Being gay is not JUST about sex... BUT as our major diifference from straight-identified people IS our sexual preference, then that and gay relationships often becomes the major topics of this Forum.

If we want to discuss world peace or the price of eggs, we can do that elsewhere in ThaiVisa... it's doesn't have a uniquely gay connotation.

ChrisP

[The_Eye_Of_Sauron]

You've both hit the nail on the head.

What indeed is the point of talking about the 'gay way of going shopping at Big C' ?

There's only really differentiating factor thats worthy of separate discussion .

However, unfortunately, that factor is <romantic/matters of the heart/sexual> . So consequently your Forum (not yourselves) look a bit unidimensional and obsessive given every single topic is about relationships, as opposed to say, the Farang Pub, where people do talk about inconsequential minutiae regarding Big C.

Its a mirage, as in real life, you're about as interested in Supermarkets as everyone else.

As IJWT says, .....relationships is the topic du jour !

So - back to the topic at hand then- should you be exposing your private matters. - when they so personal ? My answer is .....

.......it depends.

[Ijustwannateach]

Your point (5), if meant literally, is just too ludicrous for words, and does you shame.  The "oooh you're one of them'"(or rather 'one of us') is just the sort of silly attitude that I expect from a crew cut jock.

...However, in equal measure, I detect some post modernist irony in those words also, ...in which case - touche !

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Point 5 was (along with the irony) actually hinting that I think you're probably up to no good here, but I'm willing to keep an open mind as long as it pays off. As Chris points out, people coming on to this subforum questioning its existence usually don't exactly give us a good impression of themselves. Feel free to disappoint me in that respect!

As for your last message, you're right that the topics are more limited than in, say, the Pub- but the same as true for the Women's forum, or the Computer forum. That doesn't mean that the number of topics is any less infinite. After all, there is a gay aspect to our daily life here which is usually not recognized or appreciated by many straights. A walk down the street is full of discretely flirting smiles unrecognized or unseen by straights; the young man at the counter slips us a phone number; the lesbian shopowner gossips and socializes with us in a way that she wouldn't with straight men; we understand better just why *that* teacher is in favor with the assistant director; the frequent arm-touching and hand-holding among Thai men which are so threatening to many straights are comforting to us. It's not the same kind of world. This forum is good for talking about *our* world.

"Steven"

[The_Eye_Of_Sauron]

Its praiseworthy that people articulate so well here. (Far better than in the Farang Pub - Yobboes!)

I have the intuition of a Zen Nun when it comes to relationship matters - so this is the perfect milieu.

I like it here. I'm going to stick around for awhile !