2009 Formula One Season

[Mosha]

I can't see Massa being a happy bunny next season if he returns. At least Schumi threw Barrichello some scraps once his title was secure. I don't see FA doing that for Massa.

[TBWG]

I can't see Massa being a happy bunny next season if he returns. At least Schumi threw Barrichello some scraps once his title was secure. I don't see FA doing that for Massa.

Agreed, IMHO Alonso will be just as disruptive at Ferrari as he was at McLaren. Massa is a mature grand prix winner and a championship contender, bit different from the Renault/Piquet scenario!

Time will tell.

TBWG

[F1fanatic]

Have to agree as I really can't see Alonso fitting into Ferrari. As I've said before, he's a great racer but not a team player. Should be great fun!

Going back (many days!) to the Schumi/Hill discussion, I think you're probably right Rivalex - as I didn't see the race live (with all the emotion that involves!) I probably don't take it seriously enough. I started watching F1 in 96 and was so impressed with his driving it was only too easy to ignore the dislike others showed. Especially once I found out he loved dogs!

Anyway, I'm sooo looking forward to next year - especially if Kimi goes to McLaren. That should be fun too!

[Mosha]

I think despite what is being said at Planet F1 Kimi and Lewis will make a good team. Neither are the types to spit the dummy, and Kimi especially will do his talking on the track. Providing he has a car to motivate him. I do wish he'd show more emotion at the post qualifying/race interviews though. Sometimes you would think he's lost, and they were interviewing the 3 who had lost. Vettel and Button, you definitely know when they have had a good race, they're like a couple of Cheshire cats.

[rixalex]

I can't see Massa being a happy bunny next season if he returns. At least Schumi threw Barrichello some scraps once his title was secure. I don't see FA doing that for Massa.

Agreed, IMHO Alonso will be just as disruptive at Ferrari as he was at McLaren. Massa is a mature grand prix winner and a championship contender, bit different from the Renault/Piquet scenario!

As was shown by Massa's recent ridiculous comments about having Hamilton stripped of his title because of crash-gate, i think the man has delusions of grandeur and feels he's owed. This combined with Alonso's inflated ego and his demands to be be given special treatment as he has become accustomed at Renault, will i think lead to disunity and tension within the team.

Ultimately though i think Alonso will win the battle by out-performing Massa on the track. Come 2011/2012 i predict Massa will be gone and Alonso will be teamed up against a younger driver like Vettel who might be more prepared to bide his time at the team until Alonso retires. Of course, if Vettel has a good car next season and wins the title then his expectations from a team will change greatly and the idea of playing second fiddle all of a sudden has much less appeal.

Anyway, whoever Alonso's team mate is, i think Alonso will be at Ferrari for the next five or six years and will win 2 or 3 titles in that time.

Ferrari's future looks bright, providing they can weather the storm of the infighting i predict for next season.

[rixalex]

I do wish he'd show more emotion at the post qualifying/race interviews though. Sometimes you would think he's lost, and they were interviewing the 3 who had lost. Vettel and Button, you definitely know when they have had a good race, they're like a couple of Cheshire cats.

LOL. Yes Kimi, like all Finns it seems, does keep his emotions in check. For me though, when he wins, it's not a problem. It's when he loses and looks like he couldn't give a flying monkeys one way or the other is what i find frustrating. Still, that's obviously just his nature.

Vettel is definitely at the other end of the spectrum and whilst i certainly don't blame him for his euphoria, i do think he might consider reining in some of the superlatives when it comes to his own driving. He's just on the edge of appearing a bit smug for me, and if he does enjoy the success most of us agree he is destined for, it might become more of an issue.

For example, at the post-race interview i found it a little disturbing the way talked about what he described as being his own "phenomenal" laps on his last set of tyres and the way that he set a fastest lap to "have a bit of fun", before being told by the team to calm down a bit.

Anyway, i forgive him that. He's just a young lad full of beans (much like Lewis was a season or two back) and i can't begrudge him a bit of over-enthusiasm, i just hope as he matures, and assuming he is successful, he learns to use a bit more modesty and let other people (like Wacky ) talk about how fantastic he is!

[wackysleet]

I can't see Massa being a happy bunny next season if he returns. At least Schumi threw Barrichello some scraps once his title was secure. I don't see FA doing that for Massa.

Agreed, IMHO Alonso will be just as disruptive at Ferrari as he was at McLaren. Massa is a mature grand prix winner and a championship contender, bit different from the Renault/Piquet scenario!

As was shown by Massa's recent ridiculous comments about having Hamilton stripped of his title because of crash-gate, i think the man has delusions of grandeur and feels he's owed. This combined with Alonso's inflated ego and his demands to be be given special treatment as he has become accustomed at Renault, will i think lead to disunity and tension within the team.

Ultimately though i think Alonso will win the battle by out-performing Massa on the track. Come 2011/2012 i predict Massa will be gone and Alonso will be teamed up against a younger driver like Vettel who might be more prepared to bide his time at the team until Alonso retires. Of course, if Vettel has a good car next season and wins the title then his expectations from a team will change greatly and the idea of playing second fiddle all of a sudden has much less appeal.

Anyway, whoever Alonso's team mate is, i think Alonso will be at Ferrari for the next five or six years and will win 2 or 3 titles in that time.

Ferrari's future looks bright, providing they can weather the storm of the infighting i predict for next season.

Agreeing with you in part but surely you must agree that any driver having won the WDC {twice} would expect first consideration in any team having gone there as No 1 and is likely to be somewhat upset if it's not forthcoming. As for Massa being a contender, well yes he was {not your post} but that in itself does not make him a really good driver as you yourself pointed out with the current leader and I definitely agree with those sentiments.

If indeed Alonso stays at Ferrari for the period stated and Vettel joins him or some other youngster having won the title they would not be so ready to bide their time and I believe would justifiably expect parity.

I could name a few drivers having won the WDC with egos far greater than Alonsos with the possible exception of Raikonen, none more so than Senna, Shumacher, Prost.

[wackysleet]

I do wish he'd show more emotion at the post qualifying/race interviews though. Sometimes you would think he's lost, and they were interviewing the 3 who had lost. Vettel and Button, you definitely know when they have had a good race, they're like a couple of Cheshire cats.

LOL. Yes Kimi, like all Finns it seems, does keep his emotions in check. For me though, when he wins, it's not a problem. It's when he loses and looks like he couldn't give a flying monkeys one way or the other is what i find frustrating. Still, that's obviously just his nature.

Vettel is definitely at the other end of the spectrum and whilst i certainly don't blame him for his euphoria, i do think he might consider reining in some of the superlatives when it comes to his own driving. He's just on the edge of appearing a bit smug for me, and if he does enjoy the success most of us agree he is destined for, it might become more of an issue.

For example, at the post-race interview i found it a little disturbing the way talked about what he described as being his own "phenomenal" laps on his last set of tyres and the way that he set a fastest lap to "have a bit of fun", before being told by the team to calm down a bit.

Anyway, i forgive him that. He's just a young lad full of beans (much like Lewis was a season or two back) and i can't begrudge him a bit of over-enthusiasm, i just hope as he matures, and assuming he is successful, he learns to use a bit more modesty and let other people (like Wacky ) talk about how fantastic he is!

rixalex, how long have I been saying that he's a great find, certainly since he started out and I make no apologies for it as he has shown reasonable consistancy throughout his short career unlike some of the other recent newcomers which of course doesn't mean they wont but Vettel has not always had a really good car and yes I really don't like someone contiually telling us how good he is, just let the results do the talking but he is another one with a possible over inflated ego unfortunately, lets hope he calms down.

[Mosha]

Apparently 1 hot rumour is. Mclaren to buy BMW's F1 engine operation.

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/10/03/report-...-f1-engine-ops/

[rixalex]

rixalex, how long have I been saying that he's a great find, certainly since he started out and I make no apologies for it

A long time mate and no apology was ever expected or required.

I really don't like someone contiually telling us how good he is, just let the results do the talking but he is another one with a possible over inflated ego unfortunately, lets hope he calms down.

Let's face it, there aren't too many successful drivers that don't have a somewhat inflated ego - goes with the job i'd say. Maybe some are just better are disguising it?

[MJo]

I think despite what is being said at Planet F1 Kimi and Lewis will make a good team. Neither are the types to spit the dummy, and Kimi especially will do his talking on the track. Providing he has a car to motivate him. I do wish he'd show more emotion at the post qualifying/race interviews though. Sometimes you would think he's lost, and they were interviewing the 3 who had lost. Vettel and Button, you definitely know when they have had a good race, they're like a couple of Cheshire cats.

Might not happen after all. Latest reports and whisper on the streets suggest that Hamiltons crew headed by his father are fighting against McLaren's plans to take Kimi back. Latest from the team bosses indicate that they are about to get their way.

Then don't know why Hamilton would care if there is Kimi in the other car or does it mean he will lose some preferential treatment from the team. I.e. no more latest updates to his car one or two races before his team mate and no more testing support either on practice sessions.

Shame if it won't work, would like to see them in same team. With decent car they would be unbeatable at least in team championship.

[rixalex]

Agreeing with you in part but surely you must agree that any driver having won the WDC {twice} would expect first consideration in any team having gone there as No 1 and is likely to be somewhat upset if it's not forthcoming.

Nah i don't buy that. You may well be right that that is what a driver like Alonso would expect. Is he right to expect it? For me, no.

In my opinion what his history should earn him is a more handsome pay packet and some added perks - a bigger trailer perhaps, first bagging rights on the company helicopter.. that sort of thing. But in terms of the car, the equipment and the assistance of the team, i believe that at the start of the season both drivers in any team should be given an equal shot. Of course as the season pans out, as one driver begins to dominate the other, then fine, things should start to swing in that driver's favour.

But they still have to earn that privilige, and earn it based on current performance, not on what they achieved 3 or 4 years ago. They shouldn't expect to just turn up at a new team and immediately be helped to outperform their team mate. That is i believe what Alonso expected arriving at McClaren and that is where the troubles began.

If indeed Alonso stays at Ferrari for the period stated and Vettel joins him or some other youngster having won the title they would not be so ready to bide their time and I believe would justifiably expect parity.

That was the point i was making. If Vettel finds success staying where he is then all bets are off with regards to him going to Ferrari to play right-hand man to Alonso. If on the other hand he doesn't get given the car he needs where he is, he might just be prepared to join Ferrari on a long-term contract and accept that to begin with he will not be given completely equal treatment. Maybe despite that lack of parity, Vettel will have sufficient confidence in his ability to push Alonso and put him under pressure.

[Mosha]

I think despite what is being said at Planet F1 Kimi and Lewis will make a good team. Neither are the types to spit the dummy, and Kimi especially will do his talking on the track. Providing he has a car to motivate him. I do wish he'd show more emotion at the post qualifying/race interviews though. Sometimes you would think he's lost, and they were interviewing the 3 who had lost. Vettel and Button, you definitely know when they have had a good race, they're like a couple of Cheshire cats.

Might not happen after all. Latest reports and whisper on the streets suggest that Hamiltons crew headed by his father are fighting against McLaren's plans to take Kimi back. Latest from the team bosses indicate that they are about to get their way.

Then don't know why Hamilton would care if there is Kimi in the other car or does it mean he will lose some preferential treatment from the team. I.e. no more latest updates to his car one or two races before his team mate and no more testing support either on practice sessions.

Shame if it won't work, would like to see them in same team. With decent car they would be unbeatable at least in team championship.

Methinks Hamilton senior should but out.

[rixalex]

Might not happen after all. Latest reports and whisper on the streets suggest that Hamiltons crew headed by his father are fighting against McLaren's plans to take Kimi back. Latest from the team bosses indicate that they are about to get their way.

Shame if it won't work, would like to see them in same team. With decent car they would be unbeatable at least in team championship.

Methinks Hamilton senior should but out.

Methinks unsubstaniated whisperings on the street shouldn't be believed so quickly.

Mealsothinks that should Kimi not get the move to McClaren, his fan base would be more than happy to believe, whether it be true or not, that it was all due to Lewis's camp feeling threatened.

Edited October 6, 2009 by rixalex

[Mosha]

I stand corrected, and a search hasn't found anything.

[wackysleet]

Nah i don't buy that. You may well be right that that is what a driver like Alonso would expect. Is he right to expect it? For me, no.

In my opinion what his history should earn him is a more handsome pay packet and some added perks - a bigger trailer perhaps, first bagging rights on the company helicopter.. that sort of thing. But in terms of the car, the equipment and the assistance of the team, i believe that at the start of the season both drivers in any team should be given an equal shot. Of course as the season pans out, as one driver begins to dominate the other, then fine, things should start to swing in that driver's favour.

But they still have to earn that privilige, and earn it based on current performance, not on what they achieved 3 or 4 years ago. They shouldn't expect to just turn up at a new team and immediately be helped to outperform their team mate. That is i believe what Alonso expected arriving at McClaren and that is where the troubles beg.

That was the point i was making. If Vettel finds success staying where he is then all bets are off with regards to him going to Ferrari to play right-hand man to Alonso. If on the other hand he doesn't get given the car he needs where he is, he might just be prepared to join Ferrari on a long-term contract and accept that to begin with he will not be given completely equal treatment. Maybe despite that lack of parity, Vettel will have sufficient confidence in his ability to push Alonso and put him under pressure.

Actually I cannot think of a team that gives both drivers equal treatment from the word go, I do agree that salary is usually commensurate with past recent performance and don't have a problem with that.

Didn't Alonso go to Maclaren as champion driver, and if a team is not preparing both cars identical then they are favouring one driver, if they are making improvements during the season then theres no way they are going to give them to the second driver to try out, they are very certain that they will work and should be incorporated on both cars from the word go but they are not.

rixalex, you say, and at the moment we are both speculating that maybe in the future Vettel could end up at Ferrari and that if that is the case then he would not be given equal treatment and I agree, my argument has always been that drivers should have identical rides and let the quality of their driving speak for itself the only difference should be the salary that each can demand.

I believe that at Maclaren it did favour Lewis because of his very close relationship with Ron, that is not to under estimate his skills they are excellent but he certainly is not as smooth a driver as Alonso and I don't see him being thought of at the moment in the same light as he was when Ron was there and in a recent interview Lewis states that he is not liked by the majority of drivers and that he will work on that this season, maybe he has an attitude problem, after all he had been around the team for years.

Perhaps there are things that go on behind the scenes that we, the fans are not privvy to between drivers and team managers thus giving rise to certain driver unrest. This is not a knock Lewis post by the way just my take on the F1 scene, all I want to see is proper racing on a level field and that includes other brands of tyre, you will have noticed I'm sure that even the engines are now producing the same power outputs and team strategies are playing more and more of a role in the results.

[MJo]

Might not happen after all. Latest reports and whisper on the streets suggest that Hamiltons crew headed by his father are fighting against McLaren's plans to take Kimi back. Latest from the team bosses indicate that they are about to get their way.

Shame if it won't work, would like to see them in same team. With decent car they would be unbeatable at least in team championship.

Methinks Hamilton senior should but out.

Methinks unsubstaniated whisperings on the street shouldn't be believed so quickly.

Mealsothinks that should Kimi not get the move to McClaren, his fan base would be more than happy to believe, whether it be true or not, that it was all due to Lewis's camp feeling threatened.

Well it goes both ways naturally. Kimi's camp is trying to get the upper hand the same as Hamilton's guys. But recently there has been lot of staments in the press also suggesting that they do not fit in same team and the reason can not be anything else than above. Hamilton's camp is not willing to renego his contract so that McLaren can give contract to Kimi that he's willing to accept.

Anyways just speculation at this point. Maybe we should wait until we see which way it swings in the end.

[rixalex]

But recently there has been lot of staments in the press also suggesting that they do not fit in same team and the reason can not be anything else than above.

There's a myriad of different possible reasons why Kimi may or may not move to McClaren, but as i said, Kimi fans would obviously like nothing more to believe that Lewis's camp getting is feeling threatened by the possibility and is trying to scupper the deal.

The only issue that i think would be worrying Lewis's camp is the issue of pay, and how much Kimi will be getting. If they are offering Kimi a better contract then naturally Lewis might have something to say about that.

But as far as the implied suggestion that Lewis would be worried about what Kimi might do on the track, i just don't see it. Would be far more plausible were we talking about Vettel.

Hamilton's camp is not willing to renego his contract so that McLaren can give contract to Kimi that he's willing to accept.

How could you possibly know that? Just more wild speculation perhaps?

Maybe we should wait until we see which way it swings in the end.

Good idea.

[rixalex]

Didn't Alonso go to Maclaren as champion driver, and if a team is not preparing both cars identical then they are favouring one driver, if they are making improvements during the season then theres no way they are going to give them to the second driver to try out, they are very certain that they will work and should be incorporated on both cars from the word go but they are not.

Alonso did go to McLaren as champ and McLaren certainly did waste all that time, effort and money luring him from Renault to simply use him as a number two to an unknown rookie who was in his very first year.

[MJo]

But recently there has been lot of staments in the press also suggesting that they do not fit in same team and the reason can not be anything else than above.

There's a myriad of different possible reasons why Kimi may or may not move to McClaren, but as i said, Kimi fans would obviously like nothing more to believe that Lewis's camp getting is feeling threatened by the possibility and is trying to scupper the deal.

The only issue that i think would be worrying Lewis's camp is the issue of pay, and how much Kimi will be getting. If they are offering Kimi a better contract then naturally Lewis might have something to say about that.

But as far as the implied suggestion that Lewis would be worried about what Kimi might do on the track, i just don't see it. Would be far more plausible were we talking about Vettel.

Hamilton's camp is not willing to renego his contract so that McLaren can give contract to Kimi that he's willing to accept.

How could you possibly know that? Just more wild speculation perhaps?

Maybe we should wait until we see which way it swings in the end.

Good idea.

You got me all wrong. Maybe Hamilton fans would like nothing more to believe that Kimi is not going to MacLaren as he is too slow for the sport. Could this have something to do what happened two years ago in Interlagos

Hamilton's contract with McLaren includes clauses regarding preference what comes to new parts etc team support. Effectively making him the no 1 driver in the team. Now why i would be wrong or biased assuming he's not going to let that go without a fight ?

What comes to money he can not match Kimi even if he pays McLaren for his seat. He's already taking home EUR 45M from Ferrari. Laughing all the way to the bank

[MJo]

Here's an interesting one, could it be Red Bull is prepared to give boot to Webber to get Kimi ?

LINK

[rixalex]

Hamilton's contract with McLaren includes clauses regarding preference what comes to new parts etc team support.

I take it then you have a copy of Hamilton's contract in your hands? Or is this just more speculation?

What comes to money he can not match Kimi even if he pays McLaren for his seat. He's already taking home EUR 45M from Ferrari. Laughing all the way to the bank

Indeed. If an F1 driver's career was judged by his bank balance, Kimi would no doubt be considered one of the most successful of all time. Alas.

Edited October 7, 2009 by rixalex

[wackysleet]

Hamilton's contract with McLaren includes clauses regarding preference what comes to new parts etc team support.

I take it then you have a copy of Hamilton's contract in your hands? Or is this just more speculation?

What comes to money he can not match Kimi even if he pays McLaren for his seat. He's already taking home EUR 45M from Ferrari. Laughing all the way to the bank

Indeed. If an F1 driver's career was judged by his bank balance, Kimi would no doubt be considered one of the most successful of all time. Alas.

I read somewhere that Raikonen is the 3rd highest paid sports person in the world with Tiger woods at number 1 but cannot remember No 2.

[rixalex]

Alonso did go to McLaren as champ and McLaren certainly didn't waste all that time, effort and money luring him from Renault to simply use him as a number two to an unknown rookie who was in his very first year.

Correction: should have read "didn't", as in the corrected version above.

[rixalex]

This is the list i have for 2009. Kimi is at number 4. Reckon he must have the same agent that Jacques used to employ!

1. Tiger Woods

Earnings: $100 million,

2. Oscar De La Hoya

Earnings: $43.0 million,

3. Phil Mickelson

Earnings: $42.2 million,

4. Kimi Raikkonen

Earnings: $40 million,

5. Michael Schumacher

Earnings: $36 million,

6. David Beckham

Earnings: $33 million,

7. Kobe Bryant

Earnings: $32.9 million,

8. Shaquille O'Neal

Earnings: $31.9 million,

9. Michael Jordan

Earnings: $31 million,

10. Ronaldinho

Earnings: $31 million,

[MJo]

Hamilton's contract with McLaren includes clauses regarding preference what comes to new parts etc team support.

I take it then you have a copy of Hamilton's contract in your hands? Or is this just more speculation?

What comes to money he can not match Kimi even if he pays McLaren for his seat. He's already taking home EUR 45M from Ferrari. Laughing all the way to the bank

Indeed. If an F1 driver's career was judged by his bank balance, Kimi would no doubt be considered one of the most successful of all time. Alas.

C'mon, common thing in F1. Sure something was added on his contract after he won last year. Schumi had it in Ferrari, Alonso in Renault, and the list goes on. Nothing unusual. Also it has not been Kovi who has had the new updates before Hamilton this year so sure it must be in his contract and Kovi's contract. These guys agents are tough boys when it comes negotiating the best deals for their drivers and themselves and there would have been huge outcry from Kovi's groupies if this had not been agreed in his contract.

Just read in the news that Kimi has scared McLaren away by asking EUR 25M for next season Unnamed McLaren staff has commented "we are not a cow that can be milked like that"... So nego is still ongoing and McLaren is putting some pressure by leaking these "news" to german papers...

[MJo]

This is the list i have for 2009. Kimi is at number 4. Reckon he must have the same agent that Jacques used to employ!

He's pommie i believe, Steve Robertson.

[rixalex]

C'mon, common thing in F1. Sure something was added on his contract after he won last year. Schumi had it in Ferrari, Alonso in Renault, and the list goes on. Nothing unusual. Also it has not been Kovi who has had the new updates before Hamilton this year so sure it must be in his contract and Kovi's contract.

I'm sure there's an element of truth to what you are saying but i don't believe it is as black and white as you suggest.

As far as getting new updates first is concerned, it's not the case that the update is withheld from one driver and given to the other, purely so as to give an advantage to one driver. New updates may well offer better performance but they may well also offer less reliability. It makes sense therefore for teams to hedge their bets by running one car potentially quicker but more likely to break, and the other potentially slower but with a greater guarantee of being able to complete race distance. Both packages have their plus points.

Much the same with race strategy. Most teams will put their two drivers on two different strategies in the hope that if one fails, the other will succeed. One strategy might be potentially stronger than the other, but again, they both have their plus points

Now it's quite possible that the driver in the team with the most power and influence (ie the number one driver), will get some say in which of the two cars they get to drive, and which of the two strategies they get to employ - and that may well be spelt out in their contracts - but i'm sure those contracts, as with all contracts, have a lot of fine print and provisos.

If for example as the season progresses, the number two driver has a greater chance of taking the driver's title, do you think they would still be offering the potentially better car / strategy to the number one driver? I don't think so.

I think what happened at McLaren with Alonso and Hamilton proved this. I'm sure at the start of the season Alonso wielded the power to be able to make demands about the car they gave him and the strategy they put him on. But as the season panned out and Lewis unexpectedly took a commanding lead in the title race, Alonso started losing that power. Being beaten by his team mate and becoming less able to get his own way in the team were two things Alonso couldn't handle and hadn't been prepared for. It made him desperate, and we all know what that desperation drove him to do. And the rest is history as they say.

Anyway, that's just my take on it. I'm sure you guys have a different idea.

[TBWG]

Kubica signs for Renault see...........

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport...one/8293650.stm

Guess they are staying in F1 ~~~ must admit I had my doubts.

Now its watch this space for BMW the mysterious new owners don't exactly fill me with confidence!

TBWG

[Mosha]

I just want to say. This has got to be one of the best topics I've read on Thai Visa. We'll have to have one for 2010.