How To Approach Immigration

[marshbags]

At the present time we have an important thread running via macb :-

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Letter-Guarantee-t269243.html

We are not the only office having problems with unfriendly officers who are blatantly showing disrespect to applicants and not friendly aware / trained.

Surely there must be a way of respectfully registering our concerns about this and also other such matters in a collective way to try and improve relations.

After all it is a two way thing and needs addressing and being seen to be so.

Emailing is as we all know a waste of time as are normally individual approaches to the head of the respective local offices.

Can it be possible taking Thai visa,s reputation for all that is good about helping visitors to this country from around the globe to possible and respectfully approach them with our concerns.

If not how about our connections with the Nation and the Bangkok Post via a third party in a small article on advise to visa applicants and adding some sort of cautionary advice on local culture and the vetting of visas.

Respectfully posted on behalf of all our members.

Any imput or suggestions that could bring positive results instead of the customary appeatrance of them going through the motions, listening while appearing to show interest, then doing nothing about the majority of approaches.

Someone has to try and make an in road into this ongong problem and why not let it be sometime soon / now, to have a go.

They are by the way also undermining the splendid work our visa Mods and ourselves as members are trying to do to help via experience on this forum to assist Immigration and applicants

marshbags

Edited June 5, 2009 by marshbags

[ubonjoe]

I guess if enough people compained about one particular office it might get some results. Of course I am not talking about sending rants to them. It would have to a detailed complaint.

For the Nong Kai office probably the best place would be to send it to the Korat office because it is the Northeastern Immigration Center.

Tel: 044 465342 Fax: 044 465337 Emal: pk_ple (at) yahoo.com

[marshbags]

I guess if enough people compained about one particular office it might get some results. Of course I am not talking about sending rants to them. It would have to a detailed complaint.

For the Nong Kai office probably the best place would be to send it to the Korat office because it is the Northeastern Immigration Center.

Tel: 044 465342 Fax: 044 465337 Emal: pk_ple (at) yahoo.com

Nothing personal U.J. and thnks for your reply to my post

We have enough members on this forum to warrant a collective report via our membership which would have a far more reaching effect than sending and not getting feedback from the emails.

Re telephoning, I for one have tried several times to communicate with no results what so ever.

I,m sure many have also experienced this as well when trying to communicate via the usual available channels with Immigration.

marshbags

[ubonjoe]

If you can get enough people together and be able to list names and contact info fo each one. It would help if was done as a group but you would have to be the one to do it or another member with the same concerns.

Anybody that wants to complain about Nong Kai could send you PM's and then get something written up.

An email to Korat would get some attention.

[Artisi]

I would think that any letter/s complaining about Nong Kai office and staff would be filed directly into the round filing system located on the floor next to the desk. The only way you might see some action is via a friendly politician who has connections in the right area.

[marshbags]

I would think that any letter/s complaining about Nong Kai office and staff would be filed directly into the round filing system located on the floor next to the desk. The only way you might see some action is via a friendly politician who has connections in the right area.

Thanks for this Artisi, my thoughts on individual complaining, as well.

Reckon i,ll try the Bangkok forum of which i am a member, as T.Visa are unable to do one on behalf of the many members who complain daily about this sort of abuse.

Maybe something more positive may come from this approach.

marshbags

Edited June 5, 2009 by marshbags

[toptuan]

... unfriendly officers who are blatantly showing disrespect to applicants and not friendly aware / trained.

The flaw in the OP's logic is quoted above. I don't know how long you've been here, but you still don't "get it."

If you're a government officer dealing with a farang, you are the master and they are the peon. It's the culture. Get used to it.

[jayboy]

... unfriendly officers who are blatantly showing disrespect to applicants and not friendly aware / trained.

The flaw in the OP's logic is quoted above. I don't know how long you've been here, but you still don't "get it."

If you're a government officer dealing with a farang, you are the master and they are the peon. It's the culture. Get used to it.

At last, the simple truth.

Perhaps I would just add that an experienced Thai bureaucrat can sum up at a glance where a supplicant foreigner stands in the pecking order - usually nowhere at all.If he can place you in some kind of hierachical context that's relevant to him (for example if you are a diplomat or a wealthy businessman, or accompanied by high status Thai friends) you will be treated very well.

If you are a relatively poor expatriate without a work permit or obvious reason for being here (even if neatly dressed and polite) or with (in the bureaucrat's perception) a low status partner, you will probably be treared in an off hand way.

Suggestion: Grin and bear it.Immigration couldn't give a flying puck about some round robin letter of complaint.

[antony77]

At the present time we have an important thread running via macb :-

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Letter-Guarantee-t269243.html

We are not the only office having problems with unfriendly officers who are blatantly showing disrespect to applicants and not friendly aware / trained.

Surely there must be a way of respectfully registering our concerns about this and also other such matters in a collective way to try and improve relations.

After all it is a two way thing and needs addressing and being seen to be so.

Emailing is as we all know a waste of time as are normally individual approaches to the head of the respective local offices.

Can it be possible taking Thai visa,s reputation for all that is good about helping visitors to this country from around the globe to possible and respectfully approach them with our concerns.

If not how about our connections with the Nation and the Bangkok Post via a third party in a small article on advise to visa applicants and adding some sort of cautionary advice on local culture and the vetting of visas.

Respectfully posted on behalf of all our members.

Any imput or suggestions that could bring positive results instead of the customary appeatrance of them going through the motions, listening while appearing to show interest, then doing nothing about the majority of approaches.

Someone has to try and make an in road into this ongong problem and why not let it be sometime soon / now, to have a go.

They are by the way also undermining the splendid work our visa Mods and ourselves as members are trying to do to help via experience on this forum to assist Immigration and applicants

marshbags

I think that this a problem in other countries too. Immigration officials, many of whom are little more than lowly paid office workers love exercising thier power over better educated people.

The Thai officials on the whole I have found reasonably nice and never outwardly rude. But there are a few who are demanding an unco-operative. Also it depends very much on your approach. You should always be neatly dressed and very polite. I have experience with many immigration offices in Thailand for over 40 years and Hua Hin is the only one where I found the officials unfriendly. But to make up for this Chiangmai, where I lived for many years has always been a good place for visas.

On the other hand The Austrian Embassy in Bangkok visa section was the rudest I have ever come

across, Australian and Singapore too were extremely abusive. However in these cases I was able to complain and get some explanations. I think that some of the problems in Thailand are caused by the applicants themselves who don't understand the rules and requirements, which on the whole are much less stringent than other countries. Many of those wanting to live in Thailand because they like it here might appear to the Immigration officials as not the sort of person Thailand needs and seek more information about the persons financial status etc.

For those applicants like retirees who are worth more than a 100 tourists each I think that they usually have no problems and I feel that Immigration officials appreciate their worth to the country.

[jayboy]

Many of those wanting to live in Thailand because they like it here might appear to the Immigration officials as not the sort of person Thailand needs and seek more information about the persons financial status etc.

For those applicants like retirees who are worth more than a 100 tourists each I think that they usually have no problems and I feel that Immigration officials appreciate their worth to the country.

Complete misconception although the first sentence is true enough.Anyone who seriously thinks retirees - mostly far from wealthy- are more welcome than tourists in Thailand needs their head examined.

[ubonjoe]

Reckon i,ll try the Bangkok forum of which i am a member, as T.Visa are unable to do one on behalf of the many members who complain daily about this sort of abuse.

marshbags

The poblem is that is that immigration will do nothing unless they are able to collaborate any complaint by hearing it directly from the person that was abused. You would even need the officers name.

TV is trying to arrange a meeting with the head of immigration but it has not been confirmed yet.

It will be a discussion of common questions and complaints about the immigrations rules.

One of the complaints is about the inconsistency between offices in the requirements needed for an extension. Nong Kai has a reputation for wanting you to show a bank book to back up an income letter and that it had to show the full amount of income every month.

[Lite Beer]

I gather from a local forum that Nong Khai Immigration had a meeting with local foreigners to sort out some of these problems. Apparently the meeting went well and a good discussion was held by both sides.

Report of that meeting here. I realise it is another forum but I hope it is allowed as it is relevant.

http://www.udonmap.com/udonthaniforum/meet...ion-t13024.html

[toptuan]

... unfriendly officers who are blatantly showing disrespect to applicants and not friendly aware / trained.

The flaw in the OP's logic is quoted above. I don't know how long you've been here, but you still don't "get it."

If you're a government officer dealing with a farang, you are the master and they are the peon. It's the culture. Get used to it.

At last, the simple truth.

Perhaps I would just add that an experienced Thai bureaucrat can sum up at a glance where a supplicant foreigner stands in the pecking order - usually nowhere at all.If he can place you in some kind of hierachical context that's relevant to him (for example if you are a diplomat or a wealthy businessman, or accompanied by high status Thai friends) you will be treated very well.

If you are a relatively poor expatriate without a work permit or obvious reason for being here (even if neatly dressed and polite) or with (in the bureaucrat's perception) a low status partner, you will probably be treared in an off hand way.

Suggestion: Grin and bear it.Immigration couldn't give a flying puck about some round robin letter of complaint.

Excellent observation.

At Nong Khai, I made the HUGE mistake of bringing a Thai student with me on a visa extension visit (for purposes of aiding in translation).

First, the officer was insulted that I would bring a translator* and secondly, he made rude, blatantly insulting comments throughout the visit about his perception of our sexual orientation.** When the student translated his comments later to me, I wanted to return and knock his lights out (which would have endeared me forever to this office staff).

Yeah, if you bring a Thai, make sure they're wearing an impressive government uniform, or a jewel-bedecked Puying who parks her Mercedes blocking the entry steps!

*from previous visits, I had learned that the clerks couldn't talk their way out of a wet paper bag in anything other than Thai. Not sure if it was due to lack of ability or stubbornness.

**the married student's wife was waiting for us outside!

Edited June 5, 2009 by toptuan

[Gary A]

I once challenged my local immigration officer. The issue was the previously required medical certificate. I had the audacity to inform the officer that document was no longer required. I was immediately informed that HE required the document and I MUST give it to him. Things are still strained but he has apparently gotten over it because he is more cooperative than in the past. Even my wife was upset with his treatment of her husband and she is Thai.

Challenging immigration will cause you much more grief than it would be worth even though you are right and even IF you were to win. If you have been here for a while, you should already know that causing a loss of face for an official is really a stupid thing to do. YOU will be the loser in the long run.

I advise you to smile and do whatever you can to make them feel important even though they make up their own rules as they go along. As long as the big bosses allow their subordinates to get away with ignoring the official written rules, nothing is going to change. Just be assured that you will be the loser if you tell them they are wrong.

[ozzydom]

If a certain bespectacled individual at Nong Khai is involved ,I wish you the best of luck as you will need it.

Luckily for me ,any dealings I now have are to be carried at at an office double the distance in the opposite direction.

[stbkk]

Reckon i,ll try the Bangkok forum of which i am a member, as T.Visa are unable to do one on behalf of the many members who complain daily about this sort of abuse.

marshbags

The poblem is that is that immigration will do nothing unless they are able to collaborate any complaint by hearing it directly from the person that was abused. You would even need the officers name.

TV is trying to arrange a meeting with the head of immigration but it has not been confirmed yet.

It will be a discussion of common questions and complaints about the immigrations rules.

One of the complaints is about the inconsistency between offices in the requirements needed for an extension. Nong Kai has a reputation for wanting you to show a bank book to back up an income letter and that it had to show the full amount of income every month.

This sounds like the most sensible approach. As several of the other posters have observed, complaints against individuals (however well justified they are) just cause loss of face and potentially bring more problems than they might solve. Remember, T.I.T.

[marshbags]

... unfriendly officers who are blatantly showing disrespect to applicants and not friendly aware / trained.

The flaw in the OP's logic is quoted above. I don't know how long you've been here, but you still don't "get it."

If you're a government officer dealing with a farang, you are the master and they are the peon. It's the culture. Get used to it.

At last, the simple truth.

Perhaps I would just add that an experienced Thai bureaucrat can sum up at a glance where a supplicant foreigner stands in the pecking order - usually nowhere at all.If he can place you in some kind of hierachical context that's relevant to him (for example if you are a diplomat or a wealthy businessman, or accompanied by high status Thai friends) you will be treated very well.

If you are a relatively poor expatriate without a work permit or obvious reason for being here (even if neatly dressed and polite) or with (in the bureaucrat's perception) a low status partner, you will probably be treared in an off hand way.

Suggestion: Grin and bear it.Immigration couldn't give a flying puck about some round robin letter of complaint.

Excellent observation.

At Nong Khai, I made the HUGE mistake of bringing a Thai student with me on a visa extension visit (for purposes of aiding in translation).

First, the officer was insulted that I would bring a translator* and secondly, he made rude, blatantly insulting comments throughout the visit about his perception of our sexual orientation.** When the student translated his comments later to me, I wanted to return and knock his lights out (which would have endeared me forever to this office staff).

Yeah, if you bring a Thai, make sure they're wearing an impressive government uniform, or a jewel-bedecked Puying who parks her Mercedes blocking the entry steps!

*from previous visits, I had learned that the clerks couldn't talk their way out of a wet paper bag in anything other than Thai. Not sure if it was due to lack of ability or stubbornness.

**the married student's wife was waiting for us outside!

I don,t believe in father christmas either.

This must be up there with the worst of bullsh*te i,ve heard regarding N.Khai

How refreshing it was to read the link L.B just posted for us all.

No one raising repetative complaints and the majority constructive comments and suggesttions on trying to better our lot out here.

marshbags

[marshbags]

I gather from a local forum that Nong Khai Immigration had a meeting with local foreigners to sort out some of these problems. Apparently the meeting went well and a good discussion was held by both sides.

Report of that meeting here. I realise it is another forum but I hope it is allowed as it is relevant.

http://www.udonmap.com/udonthaniforum/meet...ion-t13024.html

Thanks for this link L.B.

How refreshing that practically every post is making a positive contribution and no one complaining

When the sub branch was at AEK the first time around, we used to have regular meetings with the Chief of Immigration.

He and several of his officers used to travel down to AEK and a meeting was always arranged upstairs in the conference room.

Danish Peter used to do the translations and was a respected member of the liason team for the foreigners who worked with both parties, such a friendly kind individual and so helpful to everyone.

We would put our observations direct to the Chief and he in turn would always listen politely until you stopped talking.

Peter would then translate everything into Thai for him and then it was done in reverse back to the speaker and all present of course.

He gave you and honest answer and would try to solve whatever was asked about / for, have someone making notes and taking with him what he could not address there and then.

They were always constructive meetings and everyone had an opportunity to say what they wanted to, air any complaints and ask about future plans ect.

All very friendly and positive.

Not a cynic in sight i might add if the odd one turned up, they where soon politely put in their place by everyone.

Sometimes we would all get a nice gift given to us and the Executive CEO of the hospital always provided hot and cold drinks along with a selection of tasty cakes for after the main sesion.

The Chief of Immigration would also stay for the informal part and enjoy the banter along with refreshments as well.

He was always approachable during this period for anything of a private nature.

The next chief after him also did this, but then AEK sub branch closed down and it was never the same after that when it reopened for the second time.

THe sub branch was then run by the spectacled one and several of us started to travel to N.Khai where we learned of the friendly staff in situ there.

If we went on the days Udon was open we knew he wouldn,t be among them.

Nothing to do with N.Khai, the closing, but the usual Bangkok interference and wanting change for the sake of it, I was informed when asking for the reason why.

There was never any falling out and discussion and debate was constructive and sensible at every meeting we had.

We all felt we could approach them at N.Khai and they all worked so hard to get respect and make things easier for us the foreigner.

marshbags

P.S.

We also met our fellow Foreigner and got on very well together, exchanging experiences and getting to know each other a little.

Edited June 5, 2009 by marshbags

[marshbags]

... unfriendly officers who are blatantly showing disrespect to applicants and not friendly aware / trained.

The flaw in the OP's logic is quoted above. I don't know how long you've been here, but you still don't "get it."

If you're a government officer dealing with a farang, you are the master and they are the peon. It's the culture. Get used to it.

I know of many a cynic and always give them a wide berth.

God help us all in Thailand should the day come when they take over.

Nearly 17 years coming up, guess i,m a bit of a new comer eh ! and sorry to tell you but I do get it.

I always keep trying to better my / everyones lot in spite of your assessment of where i,m at.

marshbags

[toptuan]

I gather from a local forum that Nong Khai Immigration had a meeting with local foreigners to sort out some of these problems. Apparently the meeting went well and a good discussion was held by both sides.

Report of that meeting here. I realise it is another forum but I hope it is allowed as it is relevant.

http://www.udonmap.com/udonthaniforum/meet...ion-t13024.html

Thanks for this link L.B.

How refreshing that practically every post is making a positive contribution and no one complaining

When the sub branch was at AEK the first time around, we used to have regular meetings with the Chief of Immigration.

He and several of his officers used to travel down to AEK and a meeting was always arranged upstairs in the conference room.

Danish Peter used to do the translations and was a respected member of the liason team for the foreigners who worked with both parties, such a friendly kind individual and so helpful to everyone.

We would put our observations direct to the Chief and he in turn would always listen politely until you stopped talking.

Peter would then translate everything into Thai for him and then it was done in reverse back to the speaker and all present of course.

He gave you and honest answer and would try to solve whatever was asked about / for, have someone making notes and taking with him what he could not address there and then.

They were always constructive meetings and everyone had an opportunity to say what they wanted to, air any complaints and ask about future plans ect.

All very friendly and positive.

Not a cynic in sight i might add if the odd one turned up, they where soon politely put in their place by everyone.

Sometimes we would all get a nice gift given to us and the Executive CEO of the hospital always provided hot and cold drinks along with a selection of tasty cakes for after the main sesion.

The Chief of Immigration would also stay for the informal part and enjoy the banter along with refreshments as well.

He was always approachable during this period for anything of a private nature.

The next chief after him also did this, but then AEK sub branch closed down and it was never the same after that when it reopened for the second time.

THe sub branch was then run by the spectacled one and several of us started to travel to N.Khai where we learned of the friendly staff in situ there.

If we went on the days Udon was open we knew he wouldn,t be among them.

Nothing to do with N.Khai, the closing, but the usual Bangkok interference and wanting change for the sake of it, I was informed when asking for the reason why.

There was never any falling out and discussion and debate was constructive and sensible at every meeting we had.

We all felt we could approach them at N.Khai and they all worked so hard to get respect and make things easier for us the foreigner.

marshbags

P.S.

We also met our fellow Foreigner and got on very well together, exchanging experiences and getting to know each other a little.

Window dressing. It never trickled down to the day-to-day operations and the people on the front desk. I used AEK for several years as well, and I as well as a host of others were treated with the utmost of contempt and disrespect. In fact one well-known female officer was commonly referred to as "the witch" among the expat community.

[Lite Beer]

Off topic and frivolous post deleted. Please try to keep it serious because it is.

[Tafia]

It seems, after reading the link from Udonmap that 90 day reporting can be done by post to Nong Khai posted with EMS.

Forgive my ignorance 'EMS' is this just registerd post?

[lopburi3]

Express Mail Service from Post Office.

[Tafia]

Express Mail Service from Post Office.

Thanx Lop.

[BigSnake]

Strange on a recent visit, Feb 09, I heard many good comments from my friend and his friends about the good service that had been receiving from Nong Khai immigration offfice as of late, what's up I wonder??

Edited June 9, 2009 by BigSnake

[marshbags]

Strange on a recent visit, Feb 09, I heard many good comments from my friend and his friends about the good service that had been receiving from Nong Khai immigration offfice as of late, what's up I wonder??

It was and is still a friendly office apart from the new senior officer that has now in situ., B.S.

I,m not sure when she started overseeing the other officers and not only interfering with how the office itself is now run, but making sure she intimidates all who are awaiting the various visa services we are dependant on.

I have mentioned her presence to locals in N.Khai and no one up to my recent visit, had come across her when 90 day reporting ect. ???

Anyway let us hope she changes and becomes more visitor friendly ASP

marshbags

P.S.

As for my OP

While i refer to my local office re a " bad day at Immigration " I was making a general comment which is common in relation to the many complaints that are made both on T.Visa and in the English media channels ( newspapers ) and my tkae is that surely there should be a more reliable and effective way of respectfully trying to address the ongoing problems that never seem to stop.

There must be an official body that has at least a little bit of influence whereby the usual lip service, cannot do nothing attitude so why bother to complain mind set continues to flourish in a negative fashion towards the very people Immigration are there to advise and assist.

Yes I know what some are thinking, but the customary dream on commentators need a change of mind set also or nothing will ever start to change for the better.

Edited June 12, 2009 by marshbags