A Teacher In Trouble

[Scott]

We have a teacher who has been accused twice of some inappropriate behavior with students. About a year ago, he had been texting one of the girls and I was shown the text messages. There was nothing incriminating, but they used some language that was a little too friendly for comfort. The girl was 17, her mother knew about it and wasn't concerned about any behavior, but she was concerned her husband might find out. Apparently, the mother knew the teacher well and had borrowed money from him. According to the teacher, he couldn't contact the mother and that was why he was texting the student.

He was transferred to another school (not for this reason). The new school had only grade school kids. He did end up having a fling with a Thai teacher, which didn't set too well with Thai Administration and was accused of showing an interest in one of the girls at the new school. The parents were in and the problem was resolved, since nothing happened.

He was transferred back and now someone has written to the Ministry of Education about his behavior. The Director of the school has asked me what to do.

He's worked for many years and up until a year ago, there's never been a problem or a hint of a problem. I do know that this all coincides with he and his wife having some serious problems (and at least one separation for a time). I'll talk to him early next week. I'd be interested in other people's thoughts.

[beano2274]

If the Director has asked you to do something then you have to be careful, either way you lose, you get rid of the Teacher you get a name as being a backstabber or something else, you don't get rid of the teacher and more evidence comes to light, then you look stupid.

I was accused of being too friendly to a student, we were best friends, and that was that, I had visited her family and everything was just friendship, but some teachers started talking and eventually I lost my job, but I did not care that much as it was not a good place to work (It was a University). I think she was trying to get me to like her Mum really.

So find out the truth from your friend first, before conforming to what the Thais want.

Edited June 13, 2009 by beano2274

[Scott]

Thanks. I see my job in this situation as 1) protecting the students and 2) protecting the teacher. These situations are always sensitive, but it's a very slippery slope if you start firing people based on unfounded suspicion.

.

[Scott]

Off-topic and potentially inflamatory post removed.

[Ijustwannateach]

After many years of teaching in various contexts, I'm a member of the strong school of "no teacher-student fraternising." That means no, as in ZERO percent, off-school socialising with persons who are presently your students, except in the context of a field trip or other all-class or all-school related activity. For me, this holds true whether or not parents are involved, as it is just as important to maintain the APPEARANCE of proper boundaries as it is to maintain the BOUNDARIES themselves. Attention paid to individual students is dubious ethically anyway (why should one or two deserve more attention than others you are paid to teach? Is there any risk that because of dinners and socialising with their family that you might not treat them equally regarding grades, etc.?) and risky socially (as it will almost never remain secret and will lead to jealousies and suspicions among classmates and colleagues).

If I felt a colleague were getting in to trouble with this and I cared about him, I would give him a polite, private verbal warning that I felt he was getting him/herself into trouble. If I were a boss or manager, I would give the teacher one polite, private verbal warning before it entered the official attention stage (if still necessary at that point).

Frankly, I would regard it as inappropriate for a subject teacher (as opposed to a class homeroom monitor) to have the personal mobile phone numbers of students in any routine sense at all- home numbers or parents' numbers should be what teachers need- never mind whatever the SMS's said.

It's a shame that things have to be that extreme, and I admit that when I was a student I was lucky enough to have some rewarding personal attention from various teachers- but times have changed and teachers (and schools) have to protect themselves as well as students, and any teacher who wishes to take such risks will probably regret it later, even if there is no actual misconduct.

Scott, the role of the person who wrote to the MOE is very important in this case. If it is a colleague lower level than you at the school, then it is insubordination and that colleague should be disciplined for not going through the proper channels. If it is someone higher level than you, I'd say you need to decide if that's a hint for you to fire the teacher. If it's a parent, then you have the real quandary. If possible, I would try to smooth feathers with the parent and promise that if any such thing happens again the teacher will be fired- then you go give the teacher the riot act, and hold him to it. If the parent won't accept this, then I'd say you stick to your guns but do the same thing with regard to the teacher and tell him he's on thin ice as above- but you can't let an individual parent dictate management decisions or you're in big trouble.

Good luck and let us know how it works out.

[cognos]

..normally the teacher will abide by the code of Ethics..meaning they are duty-bound to talk to a colleage about an issue to attempt a resolution to the issue BEFORE going to Administration or the Union. The exception is when a colleage goes way over the line: abuses a student in some fashion and you are sure about it, then one may go over the colleagues head and straight to the authorities ( you better be sure, false allegations are BRUTAL). I work with at-risk behavior-problem students, and I yelled at one a few days ago..the teachers on either side of the wall must have heard..but they did not say anything to me, as yelling very infrequently is really not over the line, unless a teacher is yelling constantly.. Take care, Dean

[beano2274]

Ijustwannateach - At the University I previously worked at, I was encouraged to have the mobile numbers of the students, just in case they were absent or failed to attend for a test.

Teaching ethics have to be adhered to or problems will always arise.

Edited June 13, 2009 by beano2274

[MJo]

Good points on morale and taking care of the kids. However you are working for the school and they pay your salary. Sure the kids come first and this should have the school policy as well. Friendship and nationality of you collagues comes way behind of your professional ethics.

There is rarely smoke without fire so my advice for the director would be to arrange a meeting with the teatcher in question and see if he get's it and resigns himself or if he has to be fired.

May sound tough but that's how it is. In any situation it is not acceptable for a teacher to socialize with the students, not bang them or be best friends not to talk about loaning money to their families.

[Ijustwannateach]

Ijustwannateach - At the University I previously worked at, I was encouraged to have the mobile numbers of the students, just in case they were absent or failed to attend for a test.

I understand, and I also know that it is very common for Thai teachers to have their students phone numbers (and vice-versa). I'm just saying, out of self-protection- it's better for foreign teachers not to have them. There's definitely a double-standard in operation, if not among Thais than among foreigners- and best to protect yourself.

[MJo]

Ijustwannateach - At the University I previously worked at, I was encouraged to have the mobile numbers of the students, just in case they were absent or failed to attend for a test.

I understand, and I also know that it is very common for Thai teachers to have their students phone numbers (and vice-versa). I'm just saying, out of self-protection- it's better for foreign teachers not to have them. There's definitely a double-standard in operation, if not among Thais than among foreigners- and best to protect yourself.

As a parent, i would not allow my kids to give their numbers to their teatchers. There is absolutely no reason that justifies teachers contacting students out of school premises. What you should have is the number of the parents so you can contact them if there is any issues with the student.

Then again it is different issue in uni's where the students are over 18 years of age and considered adults. But then again i do not see why you would need to contact them outside school hours.

[Ijustwannateach]

In some ways, Thai society is more innocent (or in denial?) with regard to abuse issues between adults and minors, or authority figures and subordinates. So when I have discussed such issues with Thai teachers, they usually act surprised that I would find a teacher's possession of student phone numbers troubling. After all, the Thai teacher is a kind of moral authority figure, right? What could go wrong?

I agree with you, MJo, but that's what you're up against.

[beano2274]

Ijustwannateach - At the University I previously worked at, I was encouraged to have the mobile numbers of the students, just in case they were absent or failed to attend for a test.

I understand, and I also know that it is very common for Thai teachers to have their students phone numbers (and vice-versa). I'm just saying, out of self-protection- it's better for foreign teachers not to have them. There's definitely a double-standard in operation, if not among Thais than among foreigners- and best to protect yourself.

As a parent, i would not allow my kids to give their numbers to their teatchers. There is absolutely no reason that justifies teachers contacting students out of school premises. What you should have is the number of the parents so you can contact them if there is any issues with the student.

Then again it is different issue in uni's where the students are over 18 years of age and considered adults. But then again i do not see why you would need to contact them outside school hours.

The reason for having the numbers was to find out why they were missing from a class and also in case of a non attendance at a test. The numbers were only in the office and never was a student called out of office hours.

I do find that many students in Universities ask fellow teachers for their Hi5 pages if they have one, or even their email address. I have also been asked.

Edited June 13, 2009 by beano2274

[Ijustwannateach]

^I also consider internet socialising a troublesome grey area. Official school websites and emails are one thing- they are public records at the school- but things like Facebook or MSN are probably best avoided, unless one's site is so vanilla that virtually nothing personal is ever posted there. Again, it's all about appropriate boundaries.

[gerryBScot]

I think you need to be very careful.

You are being asked by a Director for advice on what to do. Presumably the advice has to be the Director should thoroughly investigate the complaint. In order to do that the Director needs precise details of the complaint received by the MOE. The investigation should concern itself solely with the merits and demerits of the current complaint; the teacher should be invited to contribute to the process as should the original complainant.

Only after that process is over should any action be contemplated. The investigation should also consider any advice or guidance issued previously to the teacher and whether the teacher has complied with it. In general the investigation should consider facts as opposed to hearsay, gossip and what people feel about the individual. It seems to me to be entirely irrelevant that the individual has experienced relationship difficulties in the past. Tell me a human being that hasn’t?! Likewise seems irrelevant to the current investgation that he has been transferred before.

It may also be that after an investigation has been concluded that some general advice about professional conduct should be issued to all.

[JUDAS]

As a parent I find myself in total agreement with Ijustwannateach, post #5. My daughters teachers have our ( wife and mine ) 'phone numbers and that is all that's needed. Neither of my girls have a 'phone of their own yet, (5 &10 years old) but if in the future I found a teachers number on their contacts list I would be visiting the school for an explanation etc.

[Ijustwannateach]

^You should probably ask your children first, though! It is something that MOST teachers I know fear- that the students will somehow acquire a teacher's phone number and use it to harrass us (asking for extra help, prank calls, etc.). Sometimes because of the Thai teacher or staff's lack of understanding of the ethical issues, they will give a student our phone numbers without our knowledge or permission, though as they have seen our reactions to these incidents it has become less of a problem. Sometimes a list will be left somewhere and a student will find it. There will always be events of this sort.

[JimShortz]

I was accused of being too friendly to a student, we were best friends, and that was that, I had visited her family and everything was just friendship, but some teachers started talking and eventually I lost my job, but I did not care that much as it was not a good place to work (It was a University).

I'm afraid this shows a real lack of judgement and awareness of professional standards. Even when working at a university you have to retain some kind of professional distance. I was always taught that to be FRIENDLY is fine (in fact, very important, in my opinion!), but to be FRIENDS is to overstep the mark. Even if you colleagues and bosses thought it was fine, which I seriously doubt, how do you think the other students would view it? At the very least they would expect you to show favouritism in marking, etc. Really... you have to maintain professional boudaries if you want to be treated as a professional...

[beano2274]

I was accused of being too friendly to a student, we were best friends, and that was that, I had visited her family and everything was just friendship, but some teachers started talking and eventually I lost my job, but I did not care that much as it was not a good place to work (It was a University).

I'm afraid this shows a real lack of judgement and awareness of professional standards. Even when working at a university you have to retain some kind of professional distance. I was always taught that to be FRIENDLY is fine (in fact, very important, in my opinion!), but to be FRIENDS is to overstep the mark. Even if you colleagues and bosses thought it was fine, which I seriously doubt, how do you think the other students would view it? At the very least they would expect you to show favouritism in marking, etc. Really... you have to maintain professional boudaries if you want to be treated as a professional...

I was professional enough to tell the University and also I made them aware that it would be considered unfair if I taught that student. I used my brain and better judgement.

If you look around at Universities or Schools, you always have the same students around the Thai Teachers, carrying their bags etc. Then those students do tests with those Thai teachers, is that favouritism? I think so!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Boundaries have to be kept that is clear, but it works for Thai teachers as well, not just Farang.

[JohnGotti]

get rid of him.

[KhaoNiaw]

If you look around at Universities or Schools, you always have the same students around the Thai Teachers, carrying their bags etc. Then those students do tests with those Thai teachers, is that favouritism? I think so!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Boundaries have to be kept that is clear, but it works for Thai teachers as well, not just Farang.

Those teachers probably wouldn't describe those students as 'friends' though. And the students wouldn't call the teachers 'friends' either. To some extent, the relationship between Thai teachers and students is inbuilt within the social context. In my department, a student who is too friendly with a teacher would be put in their place pretty quickly, probably by the teacher involved, and by other teachers if it was perceived as a real problem. I know Thai teachers do have their students' phone numbers and vice versa but anything seen as untoward would be very strictly dealt with in my institution. You do see the same students around the Thai teachers very often - from my experience, that's more student-initiated (but can prove useful for teachers who need willing volunteers).

I agree with IJWT that there should be no outside socializing. The only exception I've made is going out for dinner when the whole class were there and a couple of other teachers were also asked. Students have my office phone number but not my mobile. Work email only. My position means that I have to contact students quite a lot so I have their numbers - at university we deal with most issues with the students themselves rather than parents, unless we really need to involve the parents directly. But I only ever call from my office phone - it means I don't pay, there are records of the numbers I've called, and it doesn't give away my mobile or home number.

Edited June 14, 2009 by KhaoNiaw

[Mario2008]

My experience in a case like this is that everybody at school talks about it, but nobody does anything about it. later I ound out that my director did something and also had sevral talks with this Thai teacher. However, as there was not much proof he wouldn't take action as he was afraid he would be sued for making false accusations.

Only when I reported it to the MOE did they wanted to start a real investigation.

Everybody wants to save face, including the school. The student isn't important in this. It is good to see some stories where schools do take on their responsibility.

[bungy007]

Ijustwannateach - At the University I previously worked at, I was encouraged to have the mobile numbers of the students, just in case they were absent or failed to attend for a test.

I understand, and I also know that it is very common for Thai teachers to have their students phone numbers (and vice-versa). I'm just saying, out of self-protection- it's better for foreign teachers not to have them. There's definitely a double-standard in operation, if not among Thais than among foreigners- and best to protect yourself.

As a parent, i would not allow my kids to give their numbers to their teatchers. There is absolutely no reason that justifies teachers contacting students out of school premises. What you should have is the number of the parents so you can contact them if there is any issues with the student.

Then again it is different issue in uni's where the students are over 18 years of age and considered adults. But then again i do not see why you would need to contact them outside school hours.

'Then again...' There is the devil, MJo. I imagine you are beginning to see the greyness of the situation. It's a case by case senario and a one size fits all solution is not advisable given that Thailand wants it's students to be entertained with a bit of education thrown in for good measure. A large amount of that entertaiment element comes from building strong relationships with the students which can transcend study periods. I'm not an advocate of romance between students and teachers but when we are talking about young adults, this is bound to occur in any area of social intercourse. Indeed, In Japan it is considered highly desireable both for the parents/students and the school.

[patklang]

Thanks. I see my job in this situation as 1) protecting the students and 2) protecting the teacher. These situations are always sensitive, but it's a very slippery slope if you start firing people based on unfounded suspicion.

.

Protect the students number 1.

Protect the teacher????? cant agree with that,but you should be honest with him and dont judge,and listen to the evidence.Its no good saying he was a model teacher then as soon as he is having problems with his wife,he starts being a horny guy to a student.Can you honestly say he has good work ethics to the school,because i dont think he has.You cannot be a teacher,no matter how good and start trying it on with young kids.

Its a slippery slope if the guy is guilty and you dont fire him,you are the boss so act like one.

[patklang]

I was accused of being too friendly to a student, we were best friends, and that was that, I had visited her family and everything was just friendship, but some teachers started talking and eventually I lost my job, but I did not care that much as it was not a good place to work (It was a University).

I'm afraid this shows a real lack of judgement and awareness of professional standards. Even when working at a university you have to retain some kind of professional distance. I was always taught that to be FRIENDLY is fine (in fact, very important, in my opinion!), but to be FRIENDS is to overstep the mark. Even if you colleagues and bosses thought it was fine, which I seriously doubt, how do you think the other students would view it? At the very least they would expect you to show favouritism in marking, etc. Really... you have to maintain professional boudaries if you want to be treated as a professional...

I was professional enough to tell the University and also I made them aware that it would be considered unfair if I taught that student. I used my brain and better judgement.

If you look around at Universities or Schools, you always have the same students around the Thai Teachers, carrying their bags etc. Then those students do tests with those Thai teachers, is that favouritism? I think so!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Boundaries have to be kept that is clear, but it works for Thai teachers as well, not just Farang.

Based on your post,you must have told the Uni after you got caught being friends with a student.A total lack of judgement like the other poster said.The family have not taken care of her daughter too,as if it was my young daughter and you were hanging around,sorry but you would be out of my house very quickly.

[bungy007]

^You should probably ask your children first, though! It is something that MOST teachers I know fear- that the students will somehow acquire a teacher's phone number and use it to harrass us (asking for extra help, prank calls, etc.). Sometimes because of the Thai teacher or staff's lack of understanding of the ethical issues, they will give a student our phone numbers without our knowledge or permission, though as they have seen our reactions to these incidents it has become less of a problem. Sometimes a list will be left somewhere and a student will find it. There will always be events of this sort.

I think your user name says it all and sorry to say that will never be the case in Thailand. The position of teacher involves so much more than just rocking up to class, teaching and going home - job done! As you have noticed yourself, the Thai teachers glady hand out your phone number. If this was fround upon then they wouldn't be so casual with your personal data. I think that states a lot of what Thais think about students possesing teachers' telephone numbers. The best we can do is cover ourselves but that is an uphill struggle when a dispute occurs - you know who ends up the fall guy

[MJo]

'Then again...' There is the devil, MJo. I imagine you are beginning to see the greyness of the situation. It's a case by case senario and a one size fits all solution is not advisable given that Thailand wants it's students to be entertained with a bit of education thrown in for good measure. A large amount of that entertaiment element comes from building strong relationships with the students which can transcend study periods. I'm not an advocate of romance between students and teachers but when we are talking about young adults, this is bound to occur in any area of social intercourse. Indeed, In Japan it is considered highly desireable both for the parents/students and the school.

Absolute nonsense, is your point "dont worry, it will happen anyway" or what are you trying to say ?

And you must be out of your mind, ask any Japanase parent is it really highly desirable in their culture that their 12 year old is being molested and having sex with her 40+ year old teachers ?

And last, i take you do not have any kids ?

So i stand with my comment, as long as the students are considered minors (under 18 years old). Each and every teatcher should know that it is not ok for them to contact the students directly other than at school during school hours. Any other school related contact must happen with the parents if it is outside school premises and no social contact at all outside school functions.

Yes, it is ok to socialize in the evening during the school play or in the weekends during school sport competitions. But it is not ok to call the student in the evening to ask why she was not in class or why her test was so bad or do you want to catch a movie sometimes. Everyone here knows the limits for sure and so do thai teachers as well. This has nothing to do being thai or being farang.

I just asked my wife (thai) about this and she said she would "cut it off and feed it to the ducks" if she found that any teatcher, farang or thai is socializing her kid outside school.

Edit: would like add that in case of over 18 year old adults i would consider it as any other workplace. It is not advisable for superior to have romantic relationship with her employees or students in case of teachers. Compromises your integrity and in many companies, not only schools it can easily get you fired.

Edited June 14, 2009 by MJo

[KhaoNiaw]

There's no grey area at our university because intimate relationships between teachers and students are not allowed. A number of years ago, a farang who started living with a student was asked to resign (not fired) and I believe they later got married.

I do believe that farang teachers often have a different type of relationship with their students than Thai teachers do. The entertainment aspect mentioned above that students expect from farang teachers is part of this maybe. But I also think that farang teachers sometimes misunderstand those relationships and believe that they are closer or more in touch with their students than the Thai teachers. But if you actually hear from students, they very rarely see things that way and it's nearly always a respected Thai teacher, with a more traditional relationship, that they will turn to with problems.

And it's true as someone mentioned that teaching in Thailand often involves a lot more than classroom time. I often end up long after working hours with students - in my office. There's no reason to take anything anywhere else.

[bungy007]

There's no grey area at our university because intimate relationships between teachers and students are not allowed. A number of years ago, a farang who started living with a student was asked to resign (not fired) and I believe they later got married.

I do believe that farang teachers often have a different type of relationship with their students than Thai teachers do. The entertainment aspect mentioned above that students expect from farang teachers is part of this maybe. But I also think that farang teachers sometimes misunderstand those relationships and believe that they are closer or more in touch with their students than the Thai teachers. But if you actually hear from students, they very rarely see things that way and it's nearly always a respected Thai teacher, with a more traditional relationship, that they will turn to with problems.

And it's true as someone mentioned that teaching in Thailand often involves a lot more than classroom time. I often end up long after working hours with students - in my office. There's no reason to take anything anywhere else.

Thank you Khaoniaw. Exactly my point MJo. There are those students who really become enthusiastic about English or western culture and seek out teachers to make friends. This entails being able to send the odd text message/e-mail etc. It's part of their joy/curiosity of having a western teacher - they do the same with their Thai teachers. However, I'm sure that when the chips are down they will turn to their Thai teachers for serious advice - which is how it should be. Hope some have gained a deeper insight from the last few posts

Edited June 14, 2009 by bungy007

[gerryBScot]

I am new to teaching and new to teaching in Thailand and I am quite surprised by some of the posting here, but at the same time I can already understand some of the issues. First up I don't even want to be in the toilet at the same time as students, I feel really uncomfortable and don't think it is right. However we do not have teacher designated facilities in our school so inevitably it happens. So following on from this I am not giving students my phone number or email address or anything. Common sense tells me it is inappropriate and most of all I really don't want to be interrupted when me and her are at home looking lovingly into each other's eyes! Secondly I am doing some 121 teaching with a student at her home, parents present. Now her parents have offered me the use of a car, free! I politely declined this. I really felt it would have been inappropriate for me to accept. However for the parents I recognise they were just trying to assist, to be helpful, to show jai dee. This is the joy of being here..... these moments when people are so kind and helpful and well meaning, wanting to smooth the way for you. Yeah a potential minefield of issues, lots of scope to blur boundaries, but I respectfully submit a bit of common sense needs to be used. Like tread very carefully.

[MJo]

There's no grey area at our university because intimate relationships between teachers and students are not allowed. A number of years ago, a farang who started living with a student was asked to resign (not fired) and I believe they later got married.

I do believe that farang teachers often have a different type of relationship with their students than Thai teachers do. The entertainment aspect mentioned above that students expect from farang teachers is part of this maybe. But I also think that farang teachers sometimes misunderstand those relationships and believe that they are closer or more in touch with their students than the Thai teachers. But if you actually hear from students, they very rarely see things that way and it's nearly always a respected Thai teacher, with a more traditional relationship, that they will turn to with problems.

And it's true as someone mentioned that teaching in Thailand often involves a lot more than classroom time. I often end up long after working hours with students - in my office. There's no reason to take anything anywhere else.

Thank you Khaoniaw. Exactly my point MJo. There are those students who really become enthusiastic about English or western culture and seek out teachers to make friends. This entails being able to send the odd text message/e-mail etc. It's part of their joy/curiosity of having a western teacher - they do the same with their Thai teachers. However, I'm sure that when the chips are down they will turn to their Thai teachers for serious advice - which is how it should be. Hope some have gained a deeper insight from the last few posts

Excatly, and my point is to add that again it is the teachers responsibility to set the limits and if necessary make the students to understand that there is boundaries. And again inform their parents in case necessary.