Thai Citizenship For Child Born In Thailand

[p_brownstone]

Actually, both of you need to have residence permits, not just one of you.

FYI, a residents permit means that you have been issued a blue passport like book saying that you have residency, and you have been issued a special Thai ID only available to permanent residents.

How should I understand then this page:

http://www.thaiembdc.org/consular/con_info/con_inf.htm

There, 1. Born within the Territory of the Kingdom of Thailand ,

case 11 and 12:

married or not, both parents legal aliens. What does it mean?

Furthermore: If we come from a country that gives citizenship only to those that are born within their own borders, my child can not get that citizenship, if born in Thailand. What would happen with this child? Will it remain stateless???

I believe you are confused over the meaning of the term "Legal Alien".

For the purpose of this legislation it means a non-Thai national, legally RESIDENT in Thailand.

Holding a Tourist Visa means you are only a Tourist - NOT Resident in the legal sense of the word.

Patrick

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Actually, both of you need to have residence permits, not just one of you.

FYI, a residents permit means that you have been issued a blue passport like book saying that you have residency, and you have been issued a special Thai ID only available to permanent residents.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How should I understand then this page:

http://www.thaiembdc.org/consular/con_info/con_inf.htm

There, 1. Born within the Territory of the Kingdom of Thailand ,

case 11 and 12:

married or not, both parents legal aliens. What does it mean?

Furthermore: If we come from a country that gives citizenship only to those that are born within their own borders, my child can not get that citizenship, if born in Thailand. What would happen with this child? Will it remain stateless???

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I believe you are confused over the meaning of the term "Legal Alien".

For the purpose of this legislation it means a non-Thai national, legally RESIDENT in Thailand.

Holding a Tourist Visa means you are only a Tourist - NOT Resident in the legal sense of the word.

Patrick

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In my view it goes much further ... like PR for both parents

[ronny1307]

I suspect that he doesn't want to believe you Samran. That's a pity, because you are right.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My dear Dr, it is not a question of Believe... law is not that easy as you should know as a Dr...

It is rather a question of the right information. And if you have read the answers to the thread, you can easily tell that the answers contradict each other. I believe Samran, but the only source that I can read (in english) says something different. Sorry, but I don't read Thai. That's why I put my question here in english.

As you see yourself, even on the term "legal alien" not everybody agrees with the same understanding. It is still a question of interpretation.

To answer the question about the nationality. It is not a secret: Romanian.

Also I would like to give you an example: Please know that there are every year about 4000 children born to US citizens, that remain stateless. They are not born within the US ("ius soli"), and their parents didn't live in the US long enough for their children to get a US passport. Those children don't get US citizenship, and if they are born in a country with "ius sanguinis", they are just stateless. So please consider this when you say: "For sure they will not be stateless." There are enough children of this type, even from parents from countries like the US.

[huski]

I suspect that he doesn't want to believe you Samran. That's a pity, because you are right.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My dear Dr, it is not a question of Believe... law is not that easy as you should know as a Dr...

It is rather a question of the right information. And if you have read the answers to the thread, you can easily tell that the answers contradict each other. I believe Samran, but the only source that I can read (in english) says something different. Sorry, but I don't read Thai. That's why I put my question here in english.

As you see yourself, even on the term "legal alien" not everybody agrees with the same understanding. It is still a question of interpretation.

To answer the question about the nationality. It is not a secret: Romanian.

Also I would like to give you an example: Please know that there are every year about 4000 children born to US citizens, that remain stateless. They are not born within the US ("ius soli"), and their parents didn't live in the US long enough for their children to get a US passport. Those children don't get US citizenship, and if they are born in a country with "ius sanguinis", they are just stateless. So please consider this when you say: "For sure they will not be stateless." There are enough children of this type, even from parents from countries like the US.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

regardless of how you interpret a legal/illegal alien, your child MUST be listed on house papers in thailand to apply for thai citizenship . i can tell you this from personal experience.

[samran]

Why don't you contract the embassy of Romania in Bangkok to see if your children can get Romanian citizenship by decent. If you are a naturally born Romanian citizen, then there is a high liklihood that the child will get your nationality automatically, regarless of where it is born.

From remory, their embassy is a small sub-soi of Paholyothin Soi 6, near Soi Aree. They will be able to tell you more.

[samran]

As you see yourself, even on the term "legal alien" not everybody agrees with the same understanding. It is still a question of interpretation.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It is not a question about interpretation. This is a clear cut matter. I have translated the relevant section of Thai law for you.

Unless the parent is a Thai citizen, or has been given indefinete leave to remain by the responsible minister (ie has permanent residence), then the child will not be eligible for Thai nationality.

[ronny1307]

As you see yourself, even on the term "legal alien" not everybody agrees with the same understanding. It is still a question of interpretation.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It is not a question about interpretation. This is a clear cut matter. I have translated the relevant section of Thai law for you.

Unless the parent is a Thai citizen, or has been given indefinete leave to remain by the responsible minister (ie has permanent residence), then the child will not be eligible for Thai nationality.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks for the translation. I know that you are sincere, and you are very helpful, indeed. I was refering to the Dr. and p_brownstone; they had different opinions on what is a "legal alien". And this is really confusing on the embassy page in D.C.

[bina]

just thought that all the people complaining might want to know how it is in other countries like israel, so maybe stop complaining so much:

""

By Shahar Ilan

Last Update: 23/03/2005 02:23

How many children of foreign workers are expected to receive citizenship, in the wake of the decision of the ministerial committee for population administration expected to pass today? Between 2,000 and 2,500, as the interior minister's office claims? Not exactly. It is more likely to be a few hundred, at best. And at worst, many fewer still.

The decision determines that citizenship will be granted only to those children of foreign workers who were born in Israel, have lived here continuously and are at least age 10. How many such individuals are there? These are the fact and figures:

In all of Tel Aviv, according to the Tel Aviv-Jaffa Education Authority, there are 197 pupils with foreign passports in grades seven and up. Some 340 such pupils study in grades one through six. Generously assuming that 100 of them are at least 10 years old, there are approximately 300 pupils with foreign passports in Tel Aviv.

...However, even those that meet all the conditions will not have an easy time proving it. They will have to prove they were born in Israel, but Rosen states that most of the children of foreign workers do not have birth certificates. In addition, they will have to prove that their parents entered Israel legally. By the nature of things, the majority of families no longer have the passport with the stamped Israeli entry visa, either because the passport was replaced and remitted to the embassy, or it was lost.

So even if the Interior Ministry will be bighearted, and make do with affidavits as proof of birth in Israel and lawful entry of the country, less than 350 children will receive citizenship. The proposal calls for citizenship to be offered to the other members of these children's families. Assuming that each of them in Israel has a mother and one sibling (the fathers have been deported), at most there are 1,000 people entitled to citizenship.

If the population authority behaves like the Population Registry, and places every possible obstacle in the path to citizenship, less than 100 children will receive citizenship. Together with the other members of their families, that total comes to less than 300.

The children who were left out

The proposal that will be approved today is less generous than the partial proposal made by the former interior minister, Avraham Poraz, who required residency in Israel of at least five years and did not stipulate that the child had to be born in Israel. Rosen say there are about 20 children of foreign workers age 18 or more, but that only four of them were born here. The others - despite being culturally Israeli through and through - can now expect to be deported.

Another 300 children are enrolled in elementary schools, but are not yet 10 years old. They, too, will be left without any legal status. It is hard to see how Israel will deport them, meaning that even after the government decision, the problem of the children of foreign workers will still not be resolved. There will be a need to naturalize more children. (the mothers who may be legally working here stay here, the kids are deported... bina's note)........

Who are the children who remained in Israel after their fathers were deported, or the families were urged to voluntarily leave the country? A Moked document states that they are "those families that cannot go back: families that have been here for about 20 years, families with children that have diseases that cannot be treated in their home countries, intermarriages (an African father and a Filipino mother, for example) in which it is unclear where they can go, or how their mestizo children who speak perfect Hebrew and good English, but do not at all know the local languages of their father and mother, will fare." Israel can afford to show generosity toward the few hundred children in this category.""

not really related but i keep seeing people complaining about visa problems and laws so thought this might put in proportion...

marriage to an israeli national automatically provides for the child's citizenship and can hold two passports (not binding for children born not to the national i.e. from previous marriage, these children will be and have been deported...)

[dr_Pat_Pong]

As you see yourself, even on the term "legal alien" not everybody agrees with the same understanding. It is still a question of interpretation.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It is not a question about interpretation. This is a clear cut matter. I have translated the relevant section of Thai law for you.

Unless the parent is a Thai citizen, or has been given indefinete leave to remain by the responsible minister (ie has permanent residence), then the child will not be eligible for Thai nationality.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks for the translation. I know that you are sincere, and you are very helpful, indeed. I was refering to the Dr. and p_brownstone; they had different opinions on what is a "legal alien". And this is really confusing on the embassy page in D.C.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

For a matter as important as this to you, one wonders why you don't engage the professional services of a competent Thai lawyer to arrive at an interpretation for you.

[p_brownstone]

As you see yourself, even on the term "legal alien" not everybody agrees with the same understanding. It is still a question of interpretation.

It is not a question about interpretation. This is a clear cut matter. I have translated the relevant section of Thai law for you.

Unless the parent is a Thai citizen, or has been given indefinete leave to remain by the responsible minister (ie has permanent residence), then the child will not be eligible for Thai nationality.

Thanks for the translation. I know that you are sincere, and you are very helpful, indeed. I was refering to the Dr. and p_brownstone; they had different opinions on what is a "legal alien". And this is really confusing on the embassy page in D.C.

I don't see anywhere in this thread that the good Doctor and myself disagree in any way over the meaning of "Legal Alien".

You believe that holding a Tourist Visa makes you a "Legal Alien" under the terms of the Thai nationality legislation which, as everyone keeps telling you, is definitely NOT the case.

Patrick

[ronny1307]

Patrick, maybe you understand the "different opinions" better if I copy your posts:

Patrick:

For the purpose of this legislation it means a non-Thai national, legally RESIDENT in Thailand.

dr Pat Pong answered:

In my view it goes much further ... like PR for both parents

"In my view" tells us that there are different views/opinions on this. That's what I stated. Nothing more, nothing less.

So are you trying to say holding a Tourist Visa makes me an "Illegal Alien"?

[p_brownstone]

Patrick, maybe you understand the "different opinions" better if I copy your posts:

Patrick:

For the purpose of this legislation it means a non-Thai national, legally RESIDENT in Thailand.

dr Pat Pong answered:

In my view it goes much further ... like PR for both parents

"In my view" tells us that there are different views/opinions on this. That's what I stated. Nothing more, nothing less.

So are you trying to say holding a Tourist Visa makes me an "Illegal Alien"?

Holding a Tourist Visa means only that you are allowed to be in Thailand for the duration of your Tourist Visa - plus any extensions you may be granted - it does not make you LEGALLY RESIDENT in Thailand - you are NOT Resident, you are a Tourist; a "Legal Alien" for the purposes of this legislation means a person who has Permanent Resident status.

I really don't know how it can be explained more clearly, however I can assure you that your child, if born in Thailand, will have absolutely no chance of aquiring Thai citizenship.

I would also urge you to contact your own Embassy here; if Romania does not allow children born overseas - even from Romanian Parents - to automatically receive Romanian citizenship then your child may well be born Stateless. (Though I doubt any established and Internationally recognised Country would have such restrictions).

Patrick

[ronny1307]

Thanks for all your help. I think I start understanding now what you are trying to say.

Do you guys think it is a problem if our child will be stateless? With this status he can stay in Thailand without restriction, right? So he doesn't need any visa.

Edited March 27, 2005 by ronny1307

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Thanks for all your help. I think I start understanding now what you are trying to say.

Do you guys think it is a problem if our child will be stateless? With this status he can stay in Thailand without restriction, right? So he doesn't need any visa.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That won't work either. Go see a lawyer before you get in too deep. However do you and your wife plan to legally stay in Thailand ? There's another conundrum for you to puzzle over. There are no family suites at the Detention Centre.

[ronny1307]

Thanks for all your help. I think I start understanding now what you are trying to say.

Do you guys think it is a problem if our child will be stateless? With this status he can stay in Thailand without restriction, right? So he doesn't need any visa.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That won't work either. Go see a lawyer before you get in too deep. However do you and your wife plan to legally stay in Thailand ? There's another conundrum for you to puzzle over. There are no family suites at the Detention Centre.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I didn't quite get your last posting, Doc. Did I somewhere say that we stay illegally in Thailand? We don't want to do anything illegal, though. Maybe we could ask for a Doubleroom, that would be enough for us with a small infant.

BTW, thanks for all the good advice! It really helps us a lot!

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Thanks for all your help. I think I start understanding now what you are trying to say.

Do you guys think it is a problem if our child will be stateless? With this status he can stay in Thailand without restriction, right? So he doesn't need any visa.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That won't work either. Go see a lawyer before you get in too deep. However do you and your wife plan to legally stay in Thailand ? There's another conundrum for you to puzzle over. There are no family suites at the Detention Centre.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I didn't quite get your last posting, Doc. Did I somewhere say that we stay illegally in Thailand? We don't want to do anything illegal, though. Maybe we could ask for a Doubleroom, that would be enough for us with a small infant.

BTW, thanks for all the good advice! It really helps us a lot!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What is your present visa status ?

[ronny1307]

What is your present visa status ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Just simple tourist visa.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

What is your present visa status ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Just simple tourist visa.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

how simple is simple. A 30 day arrival permit ?

[ronny1307]

how simple is simple. A 30 day arrival permit ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Righty.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

how simple is simple. A 30 day arrival permit ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Righty.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't think you or the baby will ever win the citizenship battle.

[ronny1307]

I don't think you or the baby will ever win the citizenship battle.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Let's try and fight. Anything is possible in LOS...

[dr_Pat_Pong]

I don't think you or the baby will ever win the citizenship battle.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Let's try and fight. Anything is possible in LOS...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You say that you are on a 30 day permit Strange ... Romanians don't get any such privilege. Are you trolling Ronny ?

[p_brownstone]

I don't think you or the baby will ever win the citizenship battle.

Let's try and fight. Anything is possible in LOS...

It’s up to you of course but I am sure your child has no chance of obtaining Thai citizenship based on information given here.

You should consider your actual Visa / Work situation before drawing undue attention to yourself with Immigration and other Government agencies.

For example:

1) I assume you and your wife have been here a while and doing “Visa runs” to keep your “Tourist” status; it’s unlikely but certainly possible that Immigration may decide to take objection to your flouting of the spirit of the Thai Immigration regulations. They will definitely go through your Entry / Exit stamps etc. carefully.

2) Other Agencies will probably wonder how you have been supporting yourself and your family whilst in Thailand and on a Tourist Visa, so you would be well advised to make sure you have good evidence of bringing money into Thailand to be used for this purpose

Only you can decide whether you should ignore the opinion of everyone who has responded to your Post here and try to claim Thai Citizenship for your child, personally I would think it not worth the chance of causing yourself real problems in other areas.

Patrick

[dr_Pat_Pong]

I don't think you or the baby will ever win the citizenship battle.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Let's try and fight. Anything is possible in LOS...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It’s up to you of course but I am sure your child has no chance of obtaining Thai citizenship based on information given here.

You should consider your actual Visa / Work situation before drawing undue attention to yourself with Immigration and other Government agencies.

For example:

1) I assume you and your wife have been here a while and doing “Visa runs” to keep your “Tourist” status; it’s unlikely but certainly possible that Immigration may decide to take objection to your flouting of the spirit of the Thai Immigration regulations. They will definitely go through your Entry / Exit stamps etc. carefully.

2) Other Agencies will probably wonder how you have been supporting yourself and your family whilst in Thailand and on a Tourist Visa, so you would be well advised to make sure you have good evidence of bringing money into Thailand to be used for this purpose

Only you can decide whether you should ignore the opinion of everyone who has responded to your Post here and try to claim Thai Citizenship for your child, personally I would think it not worth the chance of causing yourself real problems in other areas.

Patrick

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Patrick. This man doesn't get a 30 day permit on arrival. It is a formal 60 day visa or nothing. A troll or an illegal I reckon.

[ronny1307]

You say that you are on a 30 day permit    Strange  ...  Romanians don't get any such privilege.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Smart move, Doc. You seem to have been a lawyer in your former live

As I said before, we don't want to do anything illegal, just to act within the framework of law.

I forgot to mention that I myself have another passport, my wife got a 60 day-tourist visa. We didn't do any "border runs", as you guys like to call it, since we don't live continually in Thailand, and we never planned to live there. The only question was if a CHILD born in Thailand can get a Thai passport. Thanks

[sriracha john]

You say that you are on a 30 day permit    Strange  ...  Romanians don't get any such privilege. Are you trolling Ronny ? 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

LOL..... BUSTED!!!

Girl To Marry Thai Boyfriend

ronny1307

Posted on: 2005-03-27 19:03:53

Posts: 15

Joined: 2004-03-15

Member No.: 8,255

  When will this troll stop posting??! 

There's an excellent example of The Pot Calling The Kettle Black....

[sriracha john]

I forgot to mention that I myself have another passport, my wife got a 60 day-tourist visa. We didn't do any "border runs", as you guys like to call it, since we don't live continually in Thailand, and we never planned to live there. .

You could always try to get a work permit to stay here and shovel manure... as the pile you're dishing up now is getting higher and higher and indicates you're good at it...

[Nordlys]

I can tell you this much.

I was born in Thailand to Japanese parents and I do have both Japanese and Thai citizenship today (that is, I do have a valid Japanese passport and Thai citizen ID card). Well, I was born in 1966 though. And I don't know if and how the law back then is any different from today.

My parents do have permanent residency today, but I doubt if they did back then. I don't think they lived in Thailand long enough to be eligible for it when they gave me birth.

I do know neither Japan nor Thailand allows dual citizenships. But I travel to Japan every year with my Japanese passport and in Thailand I can and actually did go voting this February for election, bought a condominium without Thor Thor 3, and have even received medicare care at a state hospital here using Batr Thong (gold card under B30 medical scheme).

Does anybody have experience?

My pregnant wife and I (none of us has a Thai passport) are planning to deliver the baby in Thailand. Can the baby have a Thai passport?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[ronny1307]

Does anybody have experience?

My pregnant wife and I (none of us has a Thai passport) are planning to deliver the baby in Thailand. Can the baby have a Thai passport?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I can tell you this much. 

I was born in Thailand to Japanese parents and I do have both Japanese and Thai citizenship today (that is, I do have a valid Japanese passport and Thai citizen ID card).  Well, I was born in 1966 though.  And I don't know if and how the law back then is any different from today. 

My parents do have permanent residency today, but I doubt if they did back then.  I don't think they lived in Thailand long enough to be eligible for it when they gave me birth. 

I do know neither Japan nor Thailand allows dual citizenships.  But I travel to Japan every year with my Japanese passport and in Thailand I can and actually did go voting this February for election, bought a condominium without Thor Thor 3, and have even received medicare care at a state hospital here using Batr Thong (gold card under B30 medical scheme). 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks a lot for your posting, Nordlys . I mainly asked for advice because I was hoping that people would have own experience, like you do. Of course, this was a few years back, and it might well be that the law has been changed. Anyhow, your posting was one of the few encouraging and serious one here.

Some people here in this forum have agreed that it should be possible (see postings 6,10,12), others who claim they know Thai and have read through the laws insist that it is impossible. Again others try to discourage me by unqualified comments (e.g. Mr. John Sriracha) which I think is not very nice. I don't intend to live in Thailand for a longer period of time (neither I want to act illegally or contravene the spirit of Thai immigration law) like some of them do.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Spoil us Ronny. What is the other passport and that of your wife ?