Local Kids/academies/the Future Of The English National Team

[MSingh]

I know some of you don't give a monkeys about the National Team or International Football on the whole as they sometimes injure your most valuable assets/commodities but many of us do & as we do, the below Interview with Tony Carr, the Guy in charge of the Academy at West Ham, is something we all should ponder when England fail at another Tournament, if they even qualify, in a few Years time..

Football & Footballers at the top level, MUST be allowed to develop in the best way possible but sadly, it seems that local Footballers at Home are not given that chance & no matter how you shape it up, it does not bode well in the slightest for future England Teams ( cue the Jocks on the Forum laughing their heads off )..

Main parts in my opinion, i have highlighted..

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Tony Carr has admitted that the Academy are finding it even more difficult to recruit local youngsters as a result of recent changes to the rules governing club recruitment.

Clubs are now only allowed to sign footballers up to the age of 12 who live within an hour's travelling time from the club's headquarters - something, which Carr readily admits, is proving to be a major problem.

"It is becoming more difficult to recruit young local talent," Carr told the Evening Standard. "Young players between the ages of nine and 12 have to live within an hour's travelling time of their club's training ground and 90 minutes between the ages of 13-16.

"At the moment, we can sign players from other countries during that time. I know, though, that there are moves to ban all international transfers under the age of 18.

"I understand why the rules were introduced, to avoid youngsters travelling long distances to and from training and to prevent disruption to their schooling, but the regulations should be relaxed. As it is, we could never develop another Michael Carrick or Manchester United another David Beckham.

"Clubs like ours should be able to scout other parts of the country. If a young player in Birmingham, for example, wanted to come to us and we fulfilled strict criteria about education and home life, then I believe he should be allowed to move. There is a feeling among some Premier League clubs that the present rules are effectively a restraint of trade."

Despite the issues faced by the current rules Carr - ably assisted by right-hand man Jimmy Hampson - has continued to provide a steady stream of home-grown talent for the first team.

Already this season, striker Zavon Hines has begun to stake a claim for a regular first team spot whilst 16-year-old England international Robert Hall continues to earn plaudits. James Tomkins, Mark Noble and Jack Collison have already made the grade and are considered essential members of Gianfranco Zola's first team squad.

However a recent shift in policy has seen the introduction of a number of non-British youngsters to at the club - players such as Ahmed Abdulla (Saudi Arabia), Filip Modelski (Poland), Sergio Sanchez (Spain), Holmar Orn Eyjolfsson (Iceland), Eoin Wearan (Ireland) and Georg Grasser (Austria), all of whom have joined West Ham in the last 18 months.

[alfieconn]

"It is becoming more difficult to recruit young local talent," Carr told the Evening Standard. "Young players between the ages of nine and 12 have to live within an hour's travelling time of their club's training ground and 90 minutes between the ages of 13-16.

Is not living at these distances local to there club it should therefore be easier to recruit young talent.

"I understand why the rules were introduced, to avoid youngsters travelling long distances to and from training and to prevent disruption to their schooling, but the regulations should be relaxed. As it is, we could never develop another Michael Carrick or Manchester United another David Beckham.

So Carrick would have gone to Sunderlands academy and Beckham would have gone to West Hams academy, is he saying if this would have happened then they would not have gone on to be international players ?

"Clubs like ours should be able to scout other parts of the country. If a young player in Birmingham, for example, wanted to come to us and we fulfilled strict criteria about education and home life, then I believe he should be allowed to move. There is a feeling among some Premier League clubs that the present rules are effectively a restraint of trade."

If what Mr.Carr proposes were to happen then every young player in the country would be at one of the bigger clubs academies, making smaller clubs academies redundant, therefore again make the big clubs richer and the smaller clubs poorer.Apart from taking young kids away from there normal family life.

I know some of you don't give a monkeys about the National Team or International Football on the whole as they sometimes injure your most valuable assets/commodities but many of us do & as we do, the below Interview with Tony Carr, the Guy in charge of the Academy at West Ham, is something we all should ponder when England fail at another Tournament, if they even qualify, in a few Years time..

I can't see how young boys having to go to there local football academies has anything to do with Englands failures at Top tournaments

An Overview

Every boy in the country has a chance to go to a professional football academy, every academy is run along the same lines and the coaches at these clubs are usually ex players with there full FA coaching badges.

Therefore every single boy is this country will get the same opportunity to make it to the top weather he is at a big clubs academy or a small club's academy, if he is good enough he will make it to the top, if he is not good enough he won't it's as simple as that.

Edited December 1, 2009 by alfieconn

[MSingh]

I think Mr Carr would be better off answering your questions ^^ Mr Conn as i simply can't...

[alfieconn]

I think Mr Carr would be better off answering your questions ^^ Mr Conn as i simply can't...

i hope he makes sense on the training pitch that he does at a press interview

Cant you give him a quick ring and put my side of the argument to him

[bkkjames]

I agree with most of what you said Alfie, except not sure I agree that all academies afford the same opportunities in terms of resources, quality of training, mentoring etc.

[alfieconn]

I agree with most of what you said Alfie, except not sure I agree that all academies afford the same opportunities in terms of resources, quality of training, mentoring etc.

Well to be recognized as an academy by the FA you have to adhere to a strict code of conduct. eg-training facilities, fully qualified coaches etc, in fact there are only 41 professional academies at the moment and from the few that i've seen they are all run along the same lines.

[bkkjames]

I agree with most of what you said Alfie, except not sure I agree that all academies afford the same opportunities in terms of resources, quality of training, mentoring etc.

Well to be recognized as an academy by the FA you have to adhere to a strict code of conduct. eg-training facilities, fully qualified coaches etc, in fact there are only 41 professional academies at the moment and from the few that i've seen they are all run along the same lines.

Ok mate, you are in the know for sure. Just think that our academy might be better than LP's but that's a different story.

[sumrit]

Because they are taking boys from a much younger age those lucky enough to get to an academy are benefiting from professional coaching from as young as six/seven years old and that is certainly making them much better players at a much younger age, but I've also seen some of these very young boys devastated when they've been rejected by a club after just a few weeks trial. Sometimes by more than just one club. The clubs are ruthless and will start by telling the parents their son could be a world beater with the promise of contracts after a trial period but for most it's just rejection a few short weeks later, although the parents seem to find it hard to accept and when the next scout comes looking push them onto the next set of trials without understanding how much the pressure to succeed affects the boys. It's heartbreaking sometimes to see these boys in tears. I know of one ten year old boy who, after trials, has been rejected by three premier league clubs this year. At ten years old he ended up thinking he was useless at football.

If the clubs can produce an average of one to two players per year from these academies they will have done exceptionally well, some years they don't have any that make the grade. If you count the twenty/twenty-five boys they have at each age group plus all the ones that have been rejected over the years from seven to sixteen year olds that's a very large failure rate even if one/two 'make it'.

Having said that, for the ones that are talented enough, I think coaching has got to start as early as possible and the club academies, with their professional coaches and all their experience is the best place for that to happen. Schools football just doesn’t have the facilities or the coaching experience to help these boys progress to be able to compete at the very top.

I don't see a problem with the 60/90 minute travelling time limit. They’re sometimes training two/three times a week and their school work and home life has still got to be a priority. If the big clubs want to attract people from all over the country they should be looking to set up academies in other parts of the country as well as the town/city they’re from. My ten year old grandson for example, who lives over one hour from Birmingham, has been going to a local training center set up by Aston Villa for over three years now. If clubs were able to set centers like this up as regional academies in various parts of the country, possibly attached to a local semi professional club who play in a local regional league, they would be able to get boys from all over the country. They would be helping the local club with facilities at the same time and, as most of the rejected boys end up playing for these semi pro clubs, there would be a ready made outlet for them.

I’m sure the clubs would have more chance of a rule change to allow something like this to be set up than they would getting the traveling restrictions lifted.

Oh, and just to show how ruthless the selection process is, even at the regional training center, my grandson is the only boy left from the ones who were there when he started three years ago as a seven year old, and many more have come and gone within that time as well. They’re continually being assessed and replaced.

[alfieconn]

I agree with most of what you said Alfie, except not sure I agree that all academies afford the same opportunities in terms of resources, quality of training, mentoring etc.

Well to be recognized as an academy by the FA you have to adhere to a strict code of conduct. eg-training facilities, fully qualified coaches etc, in fact there are only 41 professional academies at the moment and from the few that i've seen they are all run along the same lines.

Ok mate, you are in the know for sure. Just think that our academy might be better than LP's but that's a different story.

For you and you only James, i have just been checking the recent england squads from u16s to under20s and yourselves have 14 players within them squads and the pool have 3 .

[bkkjames]

I agree with most of what you said Alfie, except not sure I agree that all academies afford the same opportunities in terms of resources, quality of training, mentoring etc.

Well to be recognized as an academy by the FA you have to adhere to a strict code of conduct. eg-training facilities, fully qualified coaches etc, in fact there are only 41 professional academies at the moment and from the few that i've seen they are all run along the same lines.

Ok mate, you are in the know for sure. Just think that our academy might be better than LP's but that's a different story.

For you and you only James, i have just been checking the recent england squads from u16s to under20s and yourselves have 14 players within them squads and the pool have 3 .

True but I bet the Spanish side is littered with LP youngsters?

[MSingh]

Because they are taking boys from a much younger age those lucky enough to get to an academy are benefiting from professional coaching from as young as six/seven years old and that is certainly making them much better players at a much younger age, but I've also seen some of these very young boys devastated when they've been rejected by a club after just a few weeks trial. Sometimes by more than just one club. The clubs are ruthless and will start by telling the parents their son could be a world beater with the promise of contracts after a trial period but for most it's just rejection a few short weeks later, although the parents seem to find it hard to accept and when the next scout comes looking push them onto the next set of trials without understanding how much the pressure to succeed affects the boys. It's heartbreaking sometimes to see these boys in tears. I know of one ten year old boy who, after trials, has been rejected by three premier league clubs this year. At ten years old he ended up thinking he was useless at football.

If the clubs can produce an average of one to two players per year from these academies they will have done exceptionally well, some years they don't have any that make the grade. If you count the twenty/twenty-five boys they have at each age group plus all the ones that have been rejected over the years from seven to sixteen year olds that's a very large failure rate even if one/two 'make it'.

Having said that, for the ones that are talented enough, I think coaching has got to start as early as possible and the club academies, with their professional coaches and all their experience is the best place for that to happen. Schools football just doesn't have the facilities or the coaching experience to help these boys progress to be able to compete at the very top.

I don't see a problem with the 60/90 minute travelling time limit. They're sometimes training two/three times a week and their school work and home life has still got to be a priority. If the big clubs want to attract people from all over the country they should be looking to set up academies in other parts of the country as well as the town/city they're from. My ten year old grandson for example, who lives over one hour from Birmingham, has been going to a local training center set up by Aston Villa for over three years now. If clubs were able to set centers like this up as regional academies in various parts of the country, possibly attached to a local semi professional club who play in a local regional league, they would be able to get boys from all over the country. They would be helping the local club with facilities at the same time and, as most of the rejected boys end up playing for these semi pro clubs, there would be a ready made outlet for them.

I'm sure the clubs would have more chance of a rule change to allow something like this to be set up than they would getting the traveling restrictions lifted.

Oh, and just to show how ruthless the selection process is, even at the regional training center, my grandson is the only boy left from the ones who were there when he started three years ago as a seven year old, and many more have come and gone within that time as well. They're continually being assessed and replaced.

Sumrit, you talk a lot of sense so can i ask you a question, do you think there is a problem/issue with Coaching at the level we're talking about, throughout the Game & including the Academies, in the UK ??

Would you happen to know how many actual qualified Coaches there are in the UK or be able to point me in the right direction to find out possibly ??

I say this because of what you say about that 10 year old, where does he go after being rejected by 3 Prem Academies as we all have heard the story's of Players developing AFTER that age, & some Years after in fact ??

At 10 Years old i think i still believed in Father Christmas <deleted>..

I don't believe at that age that ANYONE can tell if a Kid will make it or not, i believe there is more chance of being able to tell that he WON'T make it but not if he will & i certainly don't understand how 3 Prem Academies can have a look at him as he is obviously at a decent enough standard for them to know that he has a chance & a better one than the majority of 10 year olds out there, yet just discard him, AT 10 YEARS OLD !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[alfieconn]

Singhy, i will throw a few ideas into the hat.

Could it be that all the qualified coaches in the country, due to attaining the same qualifications and attending the same seminars etc are all sort of clones and therefore don't have anything different to teach the kids or have any of there own ideas.

Are the kids coached so much that it sort of knocks the natural ability out of them, one example i recall when my nephew was at Arsenal academy at 11 years, the coach would constantly shout at the boys to pass the ball, pass the ball, pass the ball when perhaps he should have been drumming it into them to take 4 players on each time they got the ball.

I feel sorry for the boys being preasurized from such an early age, theres nothing like when your kids playing football on a sunday morning in the local team with your mates, getting to cup finals and winning leagues and having some medals to show everyone.

Nothing like this for the academy boys, they could be getting up 6am because they have to be at Bristol for example to play a friendly where they are shit scared to do anything wrong and therefore eventually getting kicked out at 15 or 16 and nothing to show for all there efforts apart from stories of how they played for a professional team

I see a small bit in the Guardian the other day that a Middlesborough coach thinks the age for starting at an academy should 12 years.

I just think that if they have the natural ability then that is 98% of making it as a pro with the other 2% from being coached.

I doubt very much if in Brazil they have the facilities and coaches that we have in the UK and look at the quality they bring through.

By the way Jack Lampe never played at an academy until he was 17 unlike a lot of his pals including my nephew who are now not even at academy clubs.

[MSingh]

I just think that if they have the natural ability then that is 98% of making it as a pro with the other 2% from being coached.

I doubt very much if in Brazil they have the facilities and coaches that we have in the UK and look at the quality they bring through.

By the way Jack Lampe never played at an academy until he was 17 unlike a lot of his pals including my nephew who are now not even at academy clubs.

2 Points there Alfredo that i want to talk about, the first one i agree with wholeheartedly & hope many would on here but in that, how the <deleted> can Prem Academies see " something/enough " in a Kid of 10 to invite him to that Academy then release him that same Year, at 10 YEARS OF AGE ?????????

That's b*llocks ^^ & i don't care who's qualified enough to tell me otherwise !!

Secondly Brazil, an incredible & freak example, those people were put on this Planet to kick Pigs Bladders about, i truly believe that..

& i don't believe that the talent they have, like you said Alfredo, is Coached, they're born with it, just like Michael Owen was born to score Goals & get injured whilst doing it...

Jack Lampe for the record Guys & Girls is a the best Pal of Alfredo's Nephew i believe who West Ham recently signed & is now with us, playing for the Reserves sometimes i think Alfredo too, just in case anyone wondered..

[sumrit]

I just think that if they have the natural ability then that is 98% of making it as a pro with the other 2% from being coached.

I doubt very much if in Brazil they have the facilities and coaches that we have in the UK and look at the quality they bring through.

A few things to comment on.

I think all county FA's run coaching courses. I know that when my son went (fairly recently) one thing he was told was that boys had developed all their 'natural ability' by the time they were about ten/eleven years old. By the clubs taking boys at a younger age they should be able to improve the development of their natural ability but after that they are only able to coach that ability they already have.

Countries that have more naturally gifted players such as Brazil tend to be the same ones where boys have a ball at their feet continuously, without other distractions, from a very young age. Boys in the UK have so many other distractions such as TV, computers, electronic games, etc that they don't have time to just kick a ball about.

I couldn't agree more that nobody can be certain of a ten year old being good enough to be a professional footballer but the clubs will say that they can make them better players if they take them at a younger age. These academies are still constantly looking at, and taking older boys as well.

Personally, I think one of the problems with the academies is that they are limiting themselves to the number of boys they have at any one time so they are assessing and accepting/rejecting boys in very short time. That's why I think clubs should be allowed to run regional academies all over the country. That way they would be able to take more boys over a longer period of time and watch them react and develop in their own time to the superior coaching they would be getting.

Another problem I think is that the schools FA still have the final say in what the boys can/can't do. School football is no longer the 'best'. When I was at school we only had school football and the professional clubs tended not to even look at boys until they were about 14-15 years old. By the time my son started playing, Junior Sunday League football was established and many league clubs had started running their own 'centre of excellence' starting when boys were about 11 years old. My son went to one when he was 12years old and I think that the football he was playing by the time he was 14 when he signed schoolboy forms was far superior to the football played when I was the same age. As I said in an earlier post my grandson has been training for about three years now and again the football he's playing is much better at 10-11 years old than his father played.

So I've no doubt these academies are improving the standard of football being played they seem to be run as a production line in the same way as they do for more adult players and don't have enough consideration to the feelings of these (sometimes very) young boys.