Everton Thread

[sharecropper]

I think the boys deserve the bump. Great half time team talk from Moysey, obviously.

Beckford's goal was superbly taken, especially as he was falling over, and it was a very un-Everton build-up, lots of calm, precision passing under heavy pressure, topped off with a great finish. I think Beckford will become an important player for us.

I did enjoy this headline I just saw: Torres buoyed by derby draw Ha ha. Things must be bad over there,

Also this excellent (living in the past) article in the Telegraph: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/liverpool/8263087/Liverpool-manager-Kenny-Dalglish-remains-positive-after-Everton-draw-as-Kop-basks-in-warm-glow-of-yesteryear.html

[smokie36]

I think the boys deserve the bump. Great half time team talk from Moysey, obviously.

Beckford's goal was superbly taken, especially as he was falling over, and it was a very un-Everton build-up, lots of calm, precision passing under heavy pressure, topped off with a great finish. I think Beckford will become an important player for us.

I did enjoy this headline I just saw: Torres buoyed by derby draw Ha ha. Things must be bad over there,

Also this excellent (living in the past) article in the Telegraph: http://www.telegraph...yesteryear.html

I had an Evertonian swear it wasn't a penalty right up to the point he fell over....he was still smiling though!

[sharecropper]

Another good sign, considering how psychologically and goal-scoringly important Cahill is, since his absence in the Asia Cup, we have had the win at Spurs (Saha and Coleman scoring), Scunthorpe in the cup (Saha, Coleman, Fellaini, Baines, Beckford) and a draw at Liverpool (Distin and Beckford).

It seems like confidence in front of goal, across the whole team, is returning (not before time, of course).

[MSingh]

It seems like confidence in front of goal, across the whole team, is returning (not before time, of course).

It will increase 10 fold after this coming Saturday, trust me..

[sharecropper]

It seems like confidence in front of goal, across the whole team, is returning (not before time, of course).

It will increase 10 fold after this coming Saturday, trust me..

It was 1-1 in December, but hopefully we may bag a few more this weekend, as West Ham have been put further through the mincer by Martin O'Neill of all people.

I'm glad he didn't go to Anfield. Best to let Celebrity manager King Lenny or whatever he's called, make the mess worse. But O'Neill would have been perfect for them.

[MSingh]

It seems like confidence in front of goal, across the whole team, is returning (not before time, of course).

It will increase 10 fold after this coming Saturday, trust me..

It was 1-1 in December, but hopefully we may bag a few more this weekend, as West Ham have been put further through the mincer by Martin O'Neill of all people.

I'm glad he didn't go to Anfield. Best to let Celebrity manager King Lenny or whatever he's called, make the mess worse. But O'Neill would have been perfect for them.

I just said in the West Hma thread i think we dodged a Bullet by not getting him so i'm personally happy..

But the 1-1 in December you really should have won, you would have done the past couple of Seasons..

It was a miracle we got a Point out of that Game with the Players we had on the Pitch taht night & this weekend won't be too different i wouldn't have thought..

[sharecropper]

Transfer news - good and good.

Good (for the future) - New young Greek striker. Like Andy Carrol, unproven at this level, but almost certainly worth the price!

Good (now) - 'Arry tabled a derisory 500,000 QUID offer for Gary Neville, to be paid OVER 2 YEARS! So he stays with us. - http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2011/feb/01/david-moyes-tottenham-phil-neville

I fancy our chances in the FA cup replay against Chelsea even less than I did before they signed Torres. We should have finished them off at Goodison, but still, a draw at the weekend is better than a loss. Ask any Spurs fan.

[BlueScouse]

Article here from the Independent about Everton's (lack of ) finances

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/moyes-struggle-is-laid-bare-in-financial-results-2208440.html

[rott]

It ain't looking too clever is it? Crumbling stadium and no plans for a new one, good squad but results not commensurate, borrowing increasing, assets dwindling, no realistic prospect of income growing. Hmmm, but I'm sure it'll all work out in the end. Won't it?

[ThaiPauly]

Just when you thought it could not get any worse, Everton are dumped out of the FA Cup by a Championship outfit at home.

I really think that had Beckford started instead of being put on the bench because he was late due to a traffic accident the result could have been different, so why did Moyes wait till half time to introduce a guy that scored 2 goals on saturday? Punishment for being late? If so he punished himself and the Everton fans. Now all Everton have left is a relegation scrap to look forward to Cahill is out for three weeks, and Fellini for the rest of the season.

Fair play to my team though, we played very well, our back four were immense and our keeper, considering it was only his third ever professional game was excellent, saving very well from Osman late on, a save Howard would have been proud to make.

So unlucky Toffees, but I think the top man made the wrong call and cost you dearly

[smokie36]

Errr Mr B-J......has this thread paid its subs?.......better check it out mate!

[sharecropper]

Gamely rescuing the thread from the ingominy of page 5, how about something uncheery to approach another season with, Blues-style.

An article from the Liverpool Echo about Everton's ropey finances.

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/everton-fc/everton-fc-news/2011/07/08/david-prentice-why-there-is-no-need-for-an-everton-fc-revolution-100252-29016160/2/

Mind you a frequently overlooked upside is this - whilst we haven't got money to buy, Moysey has kept the squad together in a summer of approached; although maybe we should have sold one of the 20 million quid-ers so we could have done a Sunderland?

[sharecropper]

It's great this - having a thread of my own! I can swear and everything on it and no-one will ever know.

However for now I will post this, which I enjoyed reading just now:

From the Sabotage Times

http://www.sabotagetimes.com/football-sport/down-and-out-in-walton-the-everton-fans-guide-to-the-transfer-season/

[true blue]

It's great this - having a thread of my own! I can swear and everything on it and no-one will ever know.

However for now I will post this, which I enjoyed reading just now:

From the Sabotage Times

http://www.sabotagetimes.com/football-sport/down-and-out-in-walton-the-everton-fans-guide-to-the-transfer-season/

keep up the good work on your everton thread,some good write ups,lot of plonkers going around at the moment trying to undermine the club,dont think its the way to go and i think most evertonians are realistic wwhat needs doing for the club, but are worried were it might leads us in this economic climate,a good everton web site to get un bias views on the blues is realevertonians.net.steve has a good site going with some great blue boys on it.and im a moderator on it,ps i live in cnx and have been supporting everton since 1953,mike.

[sharecropper]

It's great this - having a thread of my own! I can swear and everything on it and no-one will ever know.

However for now I will post this, which I enjoyed reading just now:

From the Sabotage Times

http://www.sabotagetimes.com/football-sport/down-and-out-in-walton-the-everton-fans-guide-to-the-transfer-season/

keep up the good work on your everton thread,some good write ups,lot of plonkers going around at the moment trying to undermine the club,dont think its the way to go and i think most evertonians are realistic wwhat needs doing for the club, but are worried were it might leads us in this economic climate,a good everton web site to get un bias views on the blues is realevertonians.net.steve has a good site going with some great blue boys on it.and im a moderator on it,ps i live in cnx and have been supporting everton since 1953,mike.

One of the advantages of having my own thread is people can post website addresses on it. Well, until a Mod sees it, but thanks. I have already checked it out. And it gave me a laugh. I had forgotten about Harry Catterick!

I agree about the increasing moaning, Liverpool style. Not helpful.

Have the Green and Gold boys also packed it in given the increased success at United I wonder?

[true blue]

It's great this - having a thread of my own! I can swear and everything on it and no-one will ever know.

However for now I will post this, which I enjoyed reading just now:

From the Sabotage Times

http://www.sabotagetimes.com/football-sport/down-and-out-in-walton-the-everton-fans-guide-to-the-transfer-season/

keep up the good work on your everton thread,some good write ups,lot of plonkers going around at the moment trying to undermine the club,dont think its the way to go and i think most evertonians are realistic wwhat needs doing for the club, but are worried were it might leads us in this economic climate,a good everton web site to get un bias views on the blues is realevertonians.net.steve has a good site going with some great blue boys on it.and im a moderator on it,ps i live in cnx and have been supporting everton since 1953,mike.

One of the advantages of having my own thread is people can post website addresses on it. Well, until a Mod sees it, but thanks. I have already checked it out. And it gave me a laugh. I had forgotten about Harry Catterick!

I agree about the increasing moaning, Liverpool style. Not helpful.

Have the Green and Gold boys also packed it in given the increased success at United I wonder?

well as they say varity is the spice of life,lol COYB.3 points agianst spurs would be a good start.ps i was doing a everton thread in tv,about 3 year ago.

[sharecropper]

The Big Bad Everton Season Preview

From Royal Blue Mersey:

http://www.royalbluemersey.com/2011/8/7/2347631/the-big-bad-everton-season-preview

[sharecropper]

Spurs v Everton game cancelled.

However with my fatalistic mentality, I think this is positive for us, as I reckon we were bound to lose our first away game of the season.

Now on Sunday when I look at the table there will be loads of teams on zero points, with worse goal differences than us, and we will have a game in hand, and our first game of the season will now be at home (to QPR) which I reckon we can win!

[BangrakBob]

for the all football fans, there is a petition to have full disclosure by the British Government with regard to the Hillsborough disaster, if you have the time please sign this petition. 100,000 signatures will be enough to open a parliamentary debate

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/2199

[sharecropper]

for the all football fans, there is a petition to have full disclosure by the British Government with regard to the Hillsborough disaster, if you have the time please sign this petition. 100,000 signatures will be enough to open a parliamentary debate

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/2199

Good luck with that. There was undoubtedly a police cover-up, mistakes were made on the day and records subsequently altered. But I am not sure what else lies beneath that. Justice denied always seems to be the case after massive, tragic and fast-moving disasters like this.

And I wonder if Juventans are still campaigning, in the same dedicated way, about this extraordinary miscarriage of justice following the Hesyel Disaster, where there was definite criminal intent, and 39 people murdered (or manslaughtered), and 0ver 600 injured, but convictions secured against only 14 people, for 3 year sentences, for involuntary manslaughter, Half of those sentences suspended, with no evidence that I can find anywhere that any of the killers actually served time.

The below extract is from Wikipedia. Any references to people actually serving time or convicted of more serious offences or for longer jail time would be gratefully received.

There were 27 arrests on suspicion of manslaughter – the only extraditable offence applicable to events at Heysel. Sixty percent of these people were from Merseyside. Some of these people had previous convictions for football-related violence. In 1989, after a 5-month trial in Belgium, fourteen English fans were given 3-year sentences for involuntary manslaughter. Half the terms were suspended and it is unclear how many served their sentences.

My point is, "getting justice' is a very difficult concept in disasters like this. There really never is a 100% answer, and the greater distance in time you get from the disaster, the less likely anything will happen about them, miscarriages of justice, negligence, cover-ups or what have you.

It's just the way life is, unfortunately. Whether it's right is another matter.

PS - I don't think you are right that 100,000 signatures will be sufficient to open a parliamentary debate unless I'm missing something fundamental about British Constitutional law. Pwerhaps you could explain that bit to me.

[BangrakBob]

for the all football fans, there is a petition to have full disclosure by the British Government with regard to the Hillsborough disaster, if you have the time please sign this petition. 100,000 signatures will be enough to open a parliamentary debate

http://epetitions.di.../petitions/2199

Good luck with that. There was undoubtedly a police cover-up, mistakes were made on the day and records subsequently altered. But I am not sure what else lies beneath that. Justice denied always seems to be the case after massive, tragic and fast-moving disasters like this.

And I wonder if Juventans are still campaigning, in the same dedicated way, about this extraordinary miscarriage of justice following the Hesyel Disaster, where there was definite criminal intent, and 39 people murdered (or manslaughtered), and 0ver 600 injured, but convictions secured against only 14 people, for 3 year sentences, for involuntary manslaughter, Half of those sentences suspended, with no evidence that I can find anywhere that any of the killers actually served time.

The below extract is from Wikipedia. Any references to people actually serving time or convicted of more serious offences or for longer jail time would be gratefully received.

There were 27 arrests on suspicion of manslaughter – the only extraditable offence applicable to events at Heysel. Sixty percent of these people were from Merseyside. Some of these people had previous convictions for football-related violence. In 1989, after a 5-month trial in Belgium, fourteen English fans were given 3-year sentences for involuntary manslaughter. Half the terms were suspended and it is unclear how many served their sentences.

My point is, "getting justice' is a very difficult concept in disasters like this. There really never is a 100% answer, and the greater distance in time you get from the disaster, the less likely anything will happen about them, miscarriages of justice, negligence, cover-ups or what have you.

It's just the way life is, unfortunately. Whether it's right is another matter.

PS - I don't think you are right that 100,000 signatures will be sufficient to open a parliamentary debate unless I'm missing something fundamental about British Constitutional law. Pwerhaps you could explain that bit to me.

Didn't ask for your opinion Bitters

PS - Here is the "missing something fundamental about British Law Constitutional Law"

Debating Petitions: On Friday 29 July 2011, the Leader of the House of Commons announced that “public petitions which secure the backing of 100,000 signatures will be eligible for debate in Parliament through a newly launched website”. The website, http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/, went live on 4 August 2011.

Attached it a 17 page standard note from the House of Commons Library..."Pwerhaps" you could read it, if you really need an explanation

SN05884.pdf

[MrRed]

for the all football fans, there is a petition to have full disclosure by the British Government with regard to the Hillsborough disaster, if you have the time please sign this petition. 100,000 signatures will be enough to open a parliamentary debate

http://epetitions.di.../petitions/2199

Good luck with that. There was undoubtedly a police cover-up, mistakes were made on the day and records subsequently altered. But I am not sure what else lies beneath that. Justice denied always seems to be the case after massive, tragic and fast-moving disasters like this.

And I wonder if Juventans are still campaigning, in the same dedicated way, about this extraordinary miscarriage of justice following the Hesyel Disaster, where there was definite criminal intent, and 39 people murdered (or manslaughtered), and 0ver 600 injured, but convictions secured against only 14 people, for 3 year sentences, for involuntary manslaughter, Half of those sentences suspended, with no evidence that I can find anywhere that any of the killers actually served time.

The below extract is from Wikipedia. Any references to people actually serving time or convicted of more serious offences or for longer jail time would be gratefully received.

There were 27 arrests on suspicion of manslaughter – the only extraditable offence applicable to events at Heysel. Sixty percent of these people were from Merseyside. Some of these people had previous convictions for football-related violence. In 1989, after a 5-month trial in Belgium, fourteen English fans were given 3-year sentences for involuntary manslaughter. Half the terms were suspended and it is unclear how many served their sentences.

My point is, "getting justice' is a very difficult concept in disasters like this. There really never is a 100% answer, and the greater distance in time you get from the disaster, the less likely anything will happen about them, miscarriages of justice, negligence, cover-ups or what have you.

It's just the way life is, unfortunately. Whether it's right is another matter.

PS - I don't think you are right that 100,000 signatures will be sufficient to open a parliamentary debate unless I'm missing something fundamental about British Constitutional law. Pwerhaps you could explain that bit to me.

Didn't ask for your opinion Bitters

PS - Here is the "missing something fundamental about British Law Constitutional Law"

Debating Petitions: On Friday 29 July 2011, the Leader of the House of Commons announced that "public petitions which secure the backing of 100,000 signatures will be eligible for debate in Parliament through a newly launched website". The website, http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/, went live on 4 August 2011.

Attached it a 17 page standard note from the House of Commons Library..."Pwerhaps" you could read it, if you really need an explanation

Your reply to Sharecropper is in bad taste and incorrect,you want people to sign a petition without any idea or opinion? that is easy yes... some people have ideas also and what he says is quite correct,justice is difficult especially where the government is concerned and also involved in a disaster.,Hey lets all sign a petition willy nilly shall we! All are entitled to their own opinion and to voice it especially as you posted on as you say...the "bitters" thread!

Full disclosure as everyone is aware is a term that the British Government can manipulate anyway they want.

R.I.P to all the people who died on that sad day.

[BangrakBob]

for the all football fans, there is a petition to have full disclosure by the British Government with regard to the Hillsborough disaster, if you have the time please sign this petition. 100,000 signatures will be enough to open a parliamentary debate

http://epetitions.di.../petitions/2199

Good luck with that. There was undoubtedly a police cover-up, mistakes were made on the day and records subsequently altered. But I am not sure what else lies beneath that. Justice denied always seems to be the case after massive, tragic and fast-moving disasters like this.

And I wonder if Juventans are still campaigning, in the same dedicated way, about this extraordinary miscarriage of justice following the Hesyel Disaster, where there was definite criminal intent, and 39 people murdered (or manslaughtered), and 0ver 600 injured, but convictions secured against only 14 people, for 3 year sentences, for involuntary manslaughter, Half of those sentences suspended, with no evidence that I can find anywhere that any of the killers actually served time.

The below extract is from Wikipedia. Any references to people actually serving time or convicted of more serious offences or for longer jail time would be gratefully received.

There were 27 arrests on suspicion of manslaughter – the only extraditable offence applicable to events at Heysel. Sixty percent of these people were from Merseyside. Some of these people had previous convictions for football-related violence. In 1989, after a 5-month trial in Belgium, fourteen English fans were given 3-year sentences for involuntary manslaughter. Half the terms were suspended and it is unclear how many served their sentences.

My point is, "getting justice' is a very difficult concept in disasters like this. There really never is a 100% answer, and the greater distance in time you get from the disaster, the less likely anything will happen about them, miscarriages of justice, negligence, cover-ups or what have you.

It's just the way life is, unfortunately. Whether it's right is another matter.

PS - I don't think you are right that 100,000 signatures will be sufficient to open a parliamentary debate unless I'm missing something fundamental about British Constitutional law. Pwerhaps you could explain that bit to me.

Didn't ask for your opinion Bitters

PS - Here is the "missing something fundamental about British Law Constitutional Law"

Debating Petitions: On Friday 29 July 2011, the Leader of the House of Commons announced that "public petitions which secure the backing of 100,000 signatures will be eligible for debate in Parliament through a newly launched website". The website, http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/, went live on 4 August 2011.

Attached it a 17 page standard note from the House of Commons Library..."Pwerhaps" you could read it, if you really need an explanation

Your reply to Sharecropper is in bad taste and incorrect,you want people to sign a petition without any idea or opinion? that is easy yes... some people have ideas also and what he says is quite correct,justice is difficult especially where the government is concerned and also involved in a disaster.,Hey lets all sign a petition willy nilly shall we! All are entitled to their own opinion and to voice it especially as you posted on as you say...the "bitters" thread!

Full disclosure as everyone is aware is a term that the British Government can manipulate anyway they want.

R.I.P to all the people who died on that sad day.

I'd suggest my reply was fair considering the reply from Sharecropper was in bad taste and provocative.

Maybe I took it the wrong way, but bringing up Heysel and suggesting that Liverpool fans where responsible for murder when in my post I'm only asking people to sign a petition to help open a debate to seek the truth that is being covered up isn't right

[adder]

[Didn't ask for your opinion Bitters

PS - Here is the "missing something fundamental about British Law Constitutional Law"

Debating Petitions: On Friday 29 July 2011, the Leader of the House of Commons announced that "public petitions which secure the backing of 100,000 signatures will be eligible for debate in Parliament through a newly launched website". The website, http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/, went live on 4 August 2011.

Attached it a 17 page standard note from the House of Commons Library..."Pwerhaps" you could read it, if you really need an explanation

I will sign that petition & hopefully the truth will come out . I & All my family still never buy the Sun Newspaper & after what they said after that terrorable day. I will never forget that day .

I took all my family to Blackburn to watch City

So we got outside the ground (MY DAD (OAP),MY 3 SONS 2X6YR 1X7YR, MY 2 BROTHERS EACH WITH A LITTLE BOY (SONS) mY MATE FROM WORK WITH HIS DAD (oap) & A YOUNG LAD THEY BROUGHT WITH THEM.)

there was just 4 turnstiles for all the City fans to get in the ground . The crushing ,pushing & pulling was crazy . Then a copper on a horse decided he wanted to get amonst the crowd .Things just got worse . Luckily for me & my family an inspector noticed us with the kids he moved in & got us to the front of the Turnstiles Once all in the ground which was standing behind the Goal just as the kickoff approached I got massive pains accross my chest

I sat down on the terrace for a good 15 mins before the pains went away .(it was standing in the away fans end ) This was at the exact time the things was happening at Hillsbourgh.

The pains went as fast as they come .We didn't know what had happened in Sheffield untill we got in the Mini bus (which I had bought for away matches) & turned the radio on.

I went for a checkup & it seems I had very high collestrol & this was this cause of the pains across my chest .

In them days crowd control was very poor .

[sharecropper]

BangrakBob, I thought my various points were reasonable and reasonably made, but now I have to respond to your jibes at length.

You are right, I AM bitter about the Hillsborough disaster. But because I am an Everton fan you bizarrely think this is because I am an unthinking, callous idiot who is having a laugh about it under cover of my post, when in fact I think you just haven’t read it properly.

Having lived in Liverpool for most of my life, I actually KNOW some real Liverpool fans (more than Everton fans in fact).

Some of these whack jobs are members of my family, and some are my friends, and one in particular, my former best friend, was tragically killed at Hillsborough, crushed to death, which I still find hard to believe considering how big he was.

Whenever I go home I pass his house, see his family and see his name outside my local library on a memorial, so I suggest before you make your asinine remarks (“in bad taste” and “provocative”) and think just because someone supports a rival football team they can’t understand how terrible a human tragedy Hillsborough was for the club or the city, or other football disasters were, you think again (or you just actually read my post: (“Good luck with that. There was undoubtedly a police cover-up, mistakes were made on the day and records subsequently altered.“)

But that loss still doesn’t stop me reflecting on the causes of other totally unrelated football tragedies, nor the outcomes of other official investigations into football and non-football tragedies, as I did in my post.

In fact the personal losses people feel about Hillsborough SHOULD make people more empathetic with others around the world who have also lost family and friends in tragedies, and to ask “did THEY receive justice”? And “how do they feel about it?”

For the record, I don’t believe justice was done at Heysel, and as I pointed out in my post, I don’t believe justice is often “done” in investigations into major tragedies anywhere.

In extreme crisis, people in authority and the emergency services often forget, panic, make mistakes, wish they’d done things differently.

Final reports into tragedies are usually a whitewash, because of the enormity of the human response to the tragedy, which is usually heroic, sometimes cowardly, occasionally negligent and, rarely criminal, can’t really be dealt with in detail on an individual basis unless they materially affected the outcome. That's just the way it is, but understandably, it often isn't enough for those directly affected by the tragedy.

And peoples’ recollections change after a trauma, and their version of events change, not through malice or criminal intent or an attempt to shift the blame, but because perceptions are different at the time of such major panic and drama, to afterwards, when it’s all over. I think that is why inquiries don’t generally try to put the individual boot in, unless they see clear criminality or negligence. The rest is whitewashed. But they do try to find lessons for the future.

And that also explains why the Heysel Disaster enquiry might have thought there was no point prosecuting hundreds of Liverpool fans, trying to establish individual blame in fast-moving events, the outcome of which nobody could have foreseen, in a crumbling stadium, with poor police management and tactics, and instead why they leniently dealt with only a few. It won’t bring anyone back, lessons have been learned for the future and we have to get on with life.

Probably rightly many would say in England, but I bet they don’t think that in Italy. And I bet that report was appalling compared to the work that went into the Hillsborough one/s.

Pragmatically, what usually comes out of these enquiries isn’t an orgy of finger-pointing and reckoning against each individual responder, who may have been able to better-perform their duties had they not been under extreme stress in the eye of a monumental human tragedy, but who hasn’t actually been criminal or negligent to a point where it affected the outcome in a material way, but important lessons to be learned to prevent future tragedies occurring.

Hopefully enough lessons were learned about Hillsborough and Heysel to prevent them ever happening again.

Although I doubt it. Because one day next week, a hungover contractor listening to his IPod and eating a sandwich while working on a sports stadium somewhere will fail to tighten a screw which, years later, in a storm, will mean something shears off, falls into the crowd, injures and kills people, causing panic, and the whole process will rightly start again.

[MrRed]

Good post Mr Cropper^

What about the toffees?

Very quiet at goodison yesterday and but for Cahill no spunk up front at all,one shining star in the youngster Barkley has a good future.

QPR played some good stuff and deserved the win.

[sharecropper]

Good post Mr Cropper^

What about the toffees?

Very quiet at goodison yesterday and but for Cahill no spunk up front at all,one shining star in the youngster Barkley has a good future.

QPR played some good stuff and deserved the win.

After getting back into my usual results-related bout of Saturday night mega-swearing, it's just business as usual for us, I fear. You can't run a Premier league club on a shoestring forever, which makes Wengers shyness with the cheque book even more extraordinary. All that money and no inbound transfer action. At leastw e have an excuse.

[BangrakBob]

BangrakBob, I thought my various points were reasonable and reasonably made, but now I have to respond to your jibes at length.

You are right, I AM bitter about the Hillsborough disaster. But because I am an Everton fan you bizarrely think this is because I am an unthinking, callous idiot who is having a laugh about it under cover of my post, when in fact I think you just haven't read it properly.

Having lived in Liverpool for most of my life, I actually KNOW some real Liverpool fans (more than Everton fans in fact).

Some of these whack jobs are members of my family, and some are my friends, and one in particular, my former best friend, was tragically killed at Hillsborough, crushed to death, which I still find hard to believe considering how big he was.

Whenever I go home I pass his house, see his family and see his name outside my local library on a memorial, so I suggest before you make your asinine remarks ("in bad taste" and "provocative") and think just because someone supports a rival football team they can't understand how terrible a human tragedy Hillsborough was for the club or the city, or other football disasters were, you think again (or you just actually read my post: ("Good luck with that. There was undoubtedly a police cover-up, mistakes were made on the day and records subsequently altered.")

But that loss still doesn't stop me reflecting on the causes of other totally unrelated football tragedies, nor the outcomes of other official investigations into football and non-football tragedies, as I did in my post.

In fact the personal losses people feel about Hillsborough SHOULD make people more empathetic with others around the world who have also lost family and friends in tragedies, and to ask "did THEY receive justice"? And "how do they feel about it?"

For the record, I don't believe justice was done at Heysel, and as I pointed out in my post, I don't believe justice is often "done" in investigations into major tragedies anywhere.

In extreme crisis, people in authority and the emergency services often forget, panic, make mistakes, wish they'd done things differently.

Final reports into tragedies are usually a whitewash, because of the enormity of the human response to the tragedy, which is usually heroic, sometimes cowardly, occasionally negligent and, rarely criminal, can't really be dealt with in detail on an individual basis unless they materially affected the outcome. That's just the way it is, but understandably, it often isn't enough for those directly affected by the tragedy.

And peoples' recollections change after a trauma, and their version of events change, not through malice or criminal intent or an attempt to shift the blame, but because perceptions are different at the time of such major panic and drama, to afterwards, when it's all over. I think that is why inquiries don't generally try to put the individual boot in, unless they see clear criminality or negligence. The rest is whitewashed. But they do try to find lessons for the future.

And that also explains why the Heysel Disaster enquiry might have thought there was no point prosecuting hundreds of Liverpool fans, trying to establish individual blame in fast-moving events, the outcome of which nobody could have foreseen, in a crumbling stadium, with poor police management and tactics, and instead why they leniently dealt with only a few. It won't bring anyone back, lessons have been learned for the future and we have to get on with life.

Probably rightly many would say in England, but I bet they don't think that in Italy. And I bet that report was appalling compared to the work that went into the Hillsborough one/s.

Pragmatically, what usually comes out of these enquiries isn't an orgy of finger-pointing and reckoning against each individual responder, who may have been able to better-perform their duties had they not been under extreme stress in the eye of a monumental human tragedy, but who hasn't actually been criminal or negligent to a point where it affected the outcome in a material way, but important lessons to be learned to prevent future tragedies occurring.

Hopefully enough lessons were learned about Hillsborough and Heysel to prevent them ever happening again.

Although I doubt it. Because one day next week, a hungover contractor listening to his IPod and eating a sandwich while working on a sports stadium somewhere will fail to tighten a screw which, years later, in a storm, will mean something shears off, falls into the crowd, injures and kills people, causing panic, and the whole process will rightly start again.

Sharecropper, I sincerely apologise for my interpretation of your post

[JacknDanny]

Good post Mr Cropper^

What about the toffees?

Very quiet at goodison yesterday and but for Cahill no spunk up front at all,one shining star in the youngster Barkley has a good future.

QPR played some good stuff and deserved the win.

After getting back into my usual results-related bout of Saturday night mega-swearing, it's just business as usual for us, I fear. You can't run a Premier league club on a shoestring forever, which makes Wengers shyness with the cheque book even more extraordinary. All that money and no inbound transfer action. At leastw e have an excuse.

Agreed, They were simply awful yesterday. Along with Arsenal and Blackburn, worst performances of the weekend. If City cannot tame their bogey team this year, then they never will.

admittedly you have an excuse. The only thing that might save you this year is you have a good manager

[carmine]

Good post Mr Cropper^

What about the toffees?

Very quiet at goodison yesterday and but for Cahill no spunk up front at all,one shining star in the youngster Barkley has a good future.

QPR played some good stuff and deserved the win.

After getting back into my usual results-related bout of Saturday night mega-swearing, it's just business as usual for us, I fear. You can't run a Premier league club on a shoestring forever, which makes Wengers shyness with the cheque book even more extraordinary. All that money and no inbound transfer action. At leastw e have an excuse.

Agreed, They were simply awful yesterday. Along with Arsenal and Blackburn, worst performances of the weekend. If City cannot tame their bogey team this year, then they never will.

admittedly you have an excuse. The only thing that might save you this year is you have a good manager