Ayutthaya Police Arrested 2 Italians For Crime With No Evidence

[lazyguy]

Facts:

On Wednesday the 4th of February two Italians have been arrested by Ayutthaya City police in front of the Bangkok Bank branch in Tesco Lotus Center. They just received a money order by Western Union at about 7 pm to pay their tickets back home.

While the two Italians were busy filling out the forms in order to receive the draft an attractive Thai woman set beside them. Just when the Italians have received their money the Thai woman complained vociferous that one of the Italians has stolen her cell phone. Within minutes two security guys and a civil police officer were in place to bust them.

Two foreign friends of the Italians and a Thai were witness of the scenario but were not asked by the police officer. The police did not search search the Italians for the "corpus delicti" - neither at spot, nor at the police station. One of the witnesses has asked for evidence of the allegation but has been refused in first stage. After insisting to see the security camera recording he and the Thai woman together with the police officer were allowed to see some sequences of the recording. On this video pictures there is no evidence of the presence of a cell phone and also no evidence of the accused act of stealing something/reaching out to something.

While the witness was looking at the video pictures the Thai woman constantly commented to the police officer how obvious the criminal act is been documented here but according to the witness the video does not pay any evidence of a criminal act at all. Any trial of the witnesses to make a statement on the act has been refused by the police officer in charge. He only has recorded the "victim's" statement.

On the police station the Italians have been offered to get away by paying 30,000 THB. The money they received before they got busted would just have covered the ticket costs to fly back home, so paying 30k THB would have brought them back to nearly the same financial situation in which they were the last three weeks. Following their statement that none of them has stolen anything of anyone in that bank branch and regarding finances they had to refuse to pay the "offer".

They have contacted the Italian embassy but were only given a list of Italian/Thai lawyers to refer to at own costs.

The Italians were held from Tuesday to Saturday 6th of February at Ayutthaya City police station together with up to 8 inmates sleeping all together on the concrete floor. Today they have been brought up to court - handcuffed! - and have been accused for gang robbery at nightime (after 6 pm, higher case of criminal act), violating Thai law, paragraph 335(1) and 38.

For Thai lawyers/journalists: KORHA RUAM GAN, LAK FAP VELAA TANG KUENG, PRAMUAN GODMEI AJA MATRA 335(1), PRAGOR MATRA 38.

Bail has been set to 150.000 THB for both accused. The trial to bail out one of them for 75,000 THB, as his mental condition already has dropped considerably during the stay in the police station cell, has been refused. Also during the court case the three witnesses have not been asked/heard and no piece of evidence has been presented. Apart from the police officer who has busted The Italians no other policemen has seen the evidently video pictures as the bank has not send a copy of the camera recording to the police yet. This is to be expected to be happening on Monday.

After the court case the Italians have been brought to Ayutthaya prison where they stay at current time. One Italian has had a last telephone contact to one of of the witnesses in which he has reported that they will take away now his telephone. At current time there is no possibility to contact them.

The witness went to the Ayutthaya City police station asking for details and was told better not to "investigate" in this case. The witnesses question where the Italians have been brought was answered by a policemen and he gave him the "friendly advice" better not go to visit them.

Call for help:

The medias (print & TV) and the Bangkok Anti-Corruption Department are already informed, Central Tourist Police hotline will get my call for help tomorrow and on Monday the Italian Department for Foreign Affairs will be contacted.

Apart from "Pay the bail bla bla bla" - does anyone have another good suggestion which further instance could be additionally informed about this?

Serious supporters please answer by personal message. Thank you!

[TheWalkingMan]

If the information is presented by the OP is true then every anti-corruption department should be all over this. Additionally, the woman who made the charges should be thrown in jail for a considerable amount of time and made to pay a cash penalty.

The Embassy should be all over this too. C'mon Embassys, protect your nationals. If they are guilty, fine, but in a case like this, the embassy should be all over this.

Sometimes whether right or wrong, many non-Thais feel like it is open season... but this is insane!

TheWalkingMan

Edit: Embassy comment

Edited February 6, 2010 by TheWalkingMan

[Nio]

Nothing in the newspapers for something of this spectacular nature.

In a Bank no less?

Do you think the bank would stand for letting their patrons get scammed inside the bank? Not me, not ever

Why in the world would the Bank show a security video to a witness who is not even charged in the crime, let alone to a civil policeman?

The 2 Italians were filling out a Western Union form in PLAIN SITE of the Bank Employees or Western Union Employees, no????? It takes less than 1 minute to fill out the simple form to receive money at any Western Union in the world

Yet the Western Union Official did not come to their defense?

Maybe there is more to this story......

[Somrak]

I do believe this storry with no doubts.

The police works together with somebody to blackmail somebody. Happens here in Thailand every day .

I hope the embassy can help the poor guys and the other involved will face a strong punishment!!!!!

[lazyguy]

Nothing in the newspapers for something of this spectacular nature.

It's all brand new. This happens now. How can it be in the newspaper by now already?

In a Bank no less?

In front of the branch. Reading seems to have to do something with good luck obviously.

Do you think the bank would stand for letting their patrons get scammed inside the bank? Not me, not ever

What has the bank to do with it? Do you read or do you try to feel the words with your fingertips?

Why in the world would the Bank show a security video to a witness who is not even charged in the crime, let alone to a civil policeman?

Why not? If you insist on something, sometimes you can have good luck but you have missed also the correct formation of people involved

into this section.

The 2 Italians were filling out a Western Union form in PLAIN SITE of the Bank Employees or Western Union Employees, no?????

I have no idea about this particular detail.

It takes less than 1 minute to fill out the simple form to receive money at any Western Union in the world

What do you want to say with this? Is 1 minute not time? They have spend 10-15 minutes in that branch as it takes the service to check

identities and stuff. Your 1 minute calculation for the whole process fails.

Yet the Western Union Official did not come to their defense?

What do they have to do with it? I recommend you find someone who is able to read you the post, maybe you'll be able to understand by then.

Maybe there is more to this story......

Yes, and it will hit the medias at least in Europe - be sure!

Edited February 7, 2010 by lazyguy

[jackdawson]

what a great f in scam !

thx for bringing this to our/my attention .

can someone please find out after how much of the 30k the girl was in for .

re: the italians ; can someone please tell them to try to negotiate the 30k down and if that doesn't work for them to just pay .

u c , that's how it works here .

[lazyguy]

what a great f in scam !

thx for bringing this to our/my attention .

can someone please find out after how much of the 30k the girl was in for .

re: the italians ; can someone please tell them to try to negotiate the 30k down and if that doesn't work for them to just pay .

u c , that's how it works here .

too late to negotiate about 30k - the official bail has set now to 150k

A reporter of a newspaper is on the way to the police station and to jail to locate the Italians today.

Last information on the case is that police now highly recommends to pay the 150k quickly rather than opening the court case

facing up to 10 years in prison.

No sign of life of the Italians since yesterday 2 pm. Location: Ayuttaya prison.

[angiud]

What can we (I) do to help?

[Nio]

Nothing in the newspapers for something of this spectacular nature.

It's all brand new. This happens now. How can it be in the newspaper by now already?

In a Bank no less?

In front of the branch. Reading seems to have to do something with good luck obviously.

Do you think the bank would stand for letting their patrons get scammed inside the bank? Not me, not ever

What has the bank to do with it? Do you read or do you try to feel the words with your fingertips?

Why in the world would the Bank show a security video to a witness who is not even charged in the crime, let alone to a civil policeman?

Why not? If you insist on something, sometimes you can have good luck but you have missed also the correct formation of people involved

into this section.

The 2 Italians were filling out a Western Union form in PLAIN SITE of the Bank Employees or Western Union Employees, no?????

I have no idea about this particular detail.

It takes less than 1 minute to fill out the simple form to receive money at any Western Union in the world

What do you want to say with this? Is 1 minute not time? They have spend 10-15 minutes in that branch as it takes the service to check

identities and stuff. Your 1 minute calculation for the whole process fails.

Yet the Western Union Official did not come to their defense?

What do they have to do with it? I recommend you find someone who is able to read you the post, maybe you'll be able to understand by then.

Maybe there is more to this story......

Yes, and it will hit the medias at least in Europe - be sure!

YOUR STORY

1. On Wednesday the 4th of February two Italians have been arrested by Ayutthaya City police in front of the Bangkok Bank branch in Tesco Lotus Center. They just received a money order by Western Union at about 7 pm to pay their tickets back home.

2. While the two Italians were busy filling out the forms in order to receive the draft an attractive Thai woman set beside them. Just when the Italians have received their money the Thai woman complained vociferous that one of the Italians has stolen her cell phone. Within minutes two security guys and a civil police officer were in place to bust them.

According to your story, the Italians were busy filling out forms when a woman sat down next to them.

The Italians filled out the forms, got up from their seats and took the form to the payment window/clerk and received payment (Just when the Italians received their money that tells me they were no longer sitting next to the woman and getting at the counter getting their money)

Now at this point in time, the woman is still sitting in her seat and the 2 Italians are collecting their western union money.

So it makes sense the Italians are right in front of the western union clerk collecting their money in full view of the western union agent, getting the money, their passports and the receipt from the agent.

While the Italians are in front of the western union agent collecting their money, the woman starts screaming her mobile was stolen.

Who did the Thai woman complained vociferous to? Because you said the security guards and civil police arrived 2 minutes later? So who exactly was she complaining to and was she complaining in Thai? Then how exactly did the 2 Italians at the Western Union Counter know what was going on at this point?

At this timeline she is complaining from her seat and the 2 Italians are still in front of the Western Union agent collecting their money

While the Thai woman complained vociferous, it appears the 2 Italians collected their money and made their way outside to the front of the Bank

So for 2 minutes while this Thai woman complained vociferous inside the Bank, the 2 Italians walked outside to the front of the bank and just stood around waiting 2 minutes for the security and civil policemen to arrive.

According to your story, the best witness to this whole event had to have been the Western Union Agent but you make no mention of this person at any time in your story?

The police did not search search the Italians for the "corpus delicti" (Do you mean the evidence) your word choice here is nothing I would guess would ever be used in this situation

After insisting to see the security camera recording he and the Thai woman together with the police officer were allowed to see some sequences of the recording

Sorry I dont buy your story the bank allows anyone access to their security tapes. I am sure Bangkok Bank has a strict policy in place for this and with no Senior Policemen on sight, I doubt it even more.

How did the 2 Italians get to the police station?

We all know in Thailand civil policemen are not issued police cars and mall, bank, tesco etc security guards are quite low paid and do not have an official vehicle either

There are just to many holes in this story

1. No mention of the Western Union Agent even though you claim the woman started screaming when they were collecting their money.

2. The fact this woman was screaming and the Italians collected their money and walked outside and stood in front of the bank

3. The fact that the bank would give a civil policemen access to their security tapes before these 2 Italians were even charged with a crime.

4. The fact that one civil policemen had no way to cart them to the police station.

Unfortunately for many of you naysayers, foreigners at times do commit crimes and unless you are there and a prime witness to what happned, all you have is hearsay and innuendo's

Scams are pulled everyday in Thailand but I can promise you one thing, I do not think there is a Thai cop around that would dare pull a scam in a Thailand Bank. The Bank owners are the ones that wield the big power and no cop would dare to go against that or their career would be finished.

Since 1984 I have been in Thai Banks over 10,000 times and it all those years I have never heard of anyone pulling a scam inside a Bank. This must be the only branch of Bangkok Bank without a security guard stationed inside?

You were not there, you were not a witness

What you have is hearsay, you don't have anything more than that

While the two Italians were busy filling out the forms in order to receive the draft an attractive Thai woman set beside them

In a Bank no less?

In front of the branch. Reading seems to have to do something with good luck obviously.

[lazyguy]

you are intentionally misinterpretating my reports or simply not understanding the facts of it.

post what you want, I have no time for you.

[surayu]

Wow here we are again, did they transfer that cop in Pattaya i think, that was using a lady to sit down without helmet on the passenger seat of any "farang" riders and obviously without being ask to take a seat or whatever, so he could quickly provide a fine on the spot, very similar strategy, then the "officers" at the police station telling people that is better not to investigate is really like the "cherry on top of the cake", i am so sorry for the victims and to see a whole police station getting into these kind of scams with possibly even the complicity of the bankers (maybe they have been advised by the BiB with the same kind of reccomendation, "don't get into the BiB business" or sort of, in the best of the options), what a shame! and with possibly worse economical situations ahead, i am wondering how many more similar situations we will have to witness, TIT

[Nio]

and have been accused for gang robbery at nightime (after 6 pm, higher case of criminal act), violating Thai law, paragraph 335(1) and 38

335 (1) is Theft at Night (after 6:00 PM) Western Union receipt should confirm the exact time

Imprisonment of one to five years, fines of two thousand to ten thousand baht

338 is Blackmail and does not even apply here to this situation at all

"Whoever, compelling the other person to give or agree to give oneself or the other person the benefit in the nature to be the property by threatening to disclose the secret, to cause injury to the compelled person or the third person, up to the compelled person to submit to the same, such person be said to commit blackmail, and shall be imprisoned as from one years to 10 years, and fined as two thousand baht to twenty thousand baht"

In order to be charge with Gang Robbery there has to be at least (3) people involved (SEE SECTION 340 FOR GANG ROBBERY)

338 and 340 Gang Robbery Do not even apply to your story of what happened to these 2 Italians

In order for these 2 to be charged with 338 or 340, either the charges are trumped and easily defeated as the law definitions above or else something happened that you are not away of in your story

[lazyguy]

and have been accused for gang robbery at nightime (after 6 pm, higher case of criminal act), violating Thai law, paragraph 335(1) and 38

335 (1) is Theft at Night (after 6:00 PM) Western Union receipt should confirm the exact time

Imprisonment of one to five years, fines of two thousand to ten thousand baht

338 is Blackmail and does not even apply here to this situation at all

"Whoever, compelling the other person to give or agree to give oneself or the other person the benefit in the nature to be the property by threatening to disclose the secret, to cause injury to the compelled person or the third person, up to the compelled person to submit to the same, such person be said to commit blackmail, and shall be imprisoned as from one years to 10 years, and fined as two thousand baht to twenty thousand baht"

In order to be charge with Gang Robbery there has to be at least (3) people involved (SEE SECTION 340 FOR GANG ROBBERY)

338 and 340 Gang Robbery Do not even apply to your story of what happened to these 2 Italians

In order for these 2 to be charged with 338 or 340, either the charges are trumped and easily defeated as the law definitions above or else something happened that you are not away of in your story

who is talking here about paragraph 338???

WHAT DO YOU WANT???

Edited February 7, 2010 by lazyguy

[lazyguy]

what a great f in scam !

thx for bringing this to our/my attention .

can someone please find out after how much of the 30k the girl was in for .

re: the italians ; can someone please tell them to try to negotiate the 30k down and if that doesn't work for them to just pay .

u c , that's how it works here .

too late to negotiate about 30k - the official bail has set now to 150k

A reporter of a newspaper is on the way to the police station and to jail to locate the Italians today.

Last information on the case is that police now highly recommends to pay the 150k quickly rather than opening the court case

facing up to 10 years in prison.

No sign of life of the Italians since yesterday 2 pm. Location: Ayuttaya prison.

The following information was wrong, sorry. I recall hereby the statement:

...police now highly recommends to pay the 150k quickly rather than opening the court case

facing up to 10 years in prison.

In fact this was only a conclusion after one of the witnesses has found out that the previous 30k "offer" does not exist anymore.

[lazyguy]

and have been accused for gang robbery at nightime (after 6 pm, higher case of criminal act), violating Thai law, paragraph 335(1) and 38

335 (1) is Theft at Night (after 6:00 PM) Western Union receipt should confirm the exact time

Imprisonment of one to five years, fines of two thousand to ten thousand baht

338 is Blackmail and does not even apply here to this situation at all

"Whoever, compelling the other person to give or agree to give oneself or the other person the benefit in the nature to be the property by threatening to disclose the secret, to cause injury to the compelled person or the third person, up to the compelled person to submit to the same, such person be said to commit blackmail, and shall be imprisoned as from one years to 10 years, and fined as two thousand baht to twenty thousand baht"

In order to be charge with Gang Robbery there has to be at least (3) people involved (SEE SECTION 340 FOR GANG ROBBERY)

338 and 340 Gang Robbery Do not even apply to your story of what happened to these 2 Italians

In order for these 2 to be charged with 338 or 340, either the charges are trumped and easily defeated as the law definitions above or else something happened that you are not away of in your story

ok, you got this paragraph wrong, no problem.

but thank you for much more valuable input in your last posting and sorry for my slightly agressive tone this morning.

the story is true as my mother and the last thing I need is general doubts. this story needs to go public as widespread as possible

to lead to further investigations.

last info: the handing out of the full resolution video of the bank to the police is to be expected on Thursday.

[angiud]

I sent an email personal to the Italian Ambassador in Bangkok and I made a new thread in the italian thai-devoted website Sawadee.it.

Hope they move something...

[Nio]

and have been accused for gang robbery at nightime (after 6 pm, higher case of criminal act), violating Thai law, paragraph 335(1) and 38

335 (1) is Theft at Night (after 6:00 PM) Western Union receipt should confirm the exact time

Imprisonment of one to five years, fines of two thousand to ten thousand baht

338 is Blackmail and does not even apply here to this situation at all

"Whoever, compelling the other person to give or agree to give oneself or the other person the benefit in the nature to be the property by threatening to disclose the secret, to cause injury to the compelled person or the third person, up to the compelled person to submit to the same, such person be said to commit blackmail, and shall be imprisoned as from one years to 10 years, and fined as two thousand baht to twenty thousand baht"

In order to be charge with Gang Robbery there has to be at least (3) people involved (SEE SECTION 340 FOR GANG ROBBERY)

338 and 340 Gang Robbery Do not even apply to your story of what happened to these 2 Italians

In order for these 2 to be charged with 338 or 340, either the charges are trumped and easily defeated as the law definitions above or else something happened that you are not away of in your story

ok, you got this paragraph wrong, no problem.

but thank you for much more valuable input in your last posting and sorry for my slightly agressive tone this morning.

the story is true as my mother and the last thing I need is general doubts. this story needs to go public as widespread as possible

to lead to further investigations.

last info: the handing out of the full resolution video of the bank to the police is to be expected on Thursday.

There is no 335 Paragraph 38 in the Thai Law so I have no idea what that charge is

There is only a 338

335 only has 12 articles (paragraphs) , with Article 1 being "at night"

None of the other 12 articles of 335 have anything to do with this situation

So for starters

1. 335 (1) Theft committed at night after 6:00 PM

2. 38 have no idea what that is in relation to as 335 (Theft) has only 12 articles (only # 1 is applicable here)

3. 340 not applicable because Gang Robbery is specifically stated as having 3 or more perpetrators

Claiming article 340 is very suspect as the law specifically defines Gang Robbery in writing that it is related to 3 or more perpetrators only.

If they get the video tape and the charges are dropped for some wild reason, I would have your 2 friends go after the Thai lady for damages

There is a clear case there to claim and win some substantial damages if the video points to overwhelming innocence

Pressure from foreign media and government is the only effective method of action it seems

Edited February 7, 2010 by Nio

[lazyguy]

There is a clear case there to claim and win some substantial damages if the video points to overwhelming innocence

According to the one witness who has seen pictures of the video sequence in the bank, he only saw as one of the Italians

took his passport from the table after the paperwork process.

According to the witness no cell phone could been seen on the video tape.

[angiud]

Look like not so many TV readers are interested in this problem.

More easy to be hot about some small scam than a real one.

Bah....

[TheWalkingMan]

...

last info: the handing out of the full resolution video of the bank to the police is to be expected on Thursday.

Thursday?! That is way too long.

TheWalkingMan

[angiud]

Any update?

[lazyguy]

Any update?

The witnesses and a Thai lawyer have visited the prison today to check paperworks.

The two Italians could not been seen as the visit was outside visiting hours. The

witnesses will pay visit tomorrow during visiting hours again and will come back

with an impression of the physical and mental state of Seba and Noris.

We have official information that the Italian Embassy has sent out someone to

Ayutthaya to check on the case today. Contact to Italian Embassy has been

made and works. Thank you, Angiud! Your email seems to have had an influence

already.

Unfortunately Tourist Police can not do anything anymore because it has become an

official court case as we have been told.

tomorrow the witnesses have to investigate about the presentation of the evidential

video. one witness has got the impression (!) that the video of evidence will not

be presented anymore as the case has been officially opended. this needs to be

cleared and followed.

The situation is frustrating as we do not have any responce from other parties

which we have activated already.

For us it is easy to say that time will play for us but Seba and Noris are jailed

under bad conditions. It is to be expected that someone has to go regularly to

bring them healthy food and vitamines which they will not get in prison. Apart

from the possibility that this could give even more insight view to more corruptive

activities to be collected it is hard to accept, that TODAY in THAILAND

TWO EU-NATIONALS ARE BUSTED AND BAILED FOR 3,300 EURO FOR A CRIME

FOR WHICH NO EVIDENCE HAS BEEN PAID FOR YET!

The small group of supporting people are seriously thinking about bailing them

out. I think this is a good idea if it is been connected to an unexpected media

event which might lead to more public attention.

I will follow up the Thai medias and the Italian Embassy tomorrow morning again.

One frustrating thing is to face the fact that Sebas and Noris' chances for

compensation for this scam and their sufferings are close to zero, if not zero.

...but another much more frustrating thing for me is to see how it is possible

that things like this still can happen today, how much effort it costs to bring

things like this to the right persons ears and finally why does not see anybody

see the consequences from scams like this? One of many examples...

the one Italian who was seriously thinking about moving to here must have

strong faith into this culture if not changing his mind and his mate will possibly

also not have the best momories on his Thailand trip 2010.

no foreign money needed? no tourists needed? for me ok, but the slowly

growing middle class in Thailand will not give their D-Maxes and Vigos away

anymore.

if law cases are handled like this case in it's best example with a potential

chance to uncover criminal cooperation between official instances and cilvilists

for personal benefits and nobody cares if this happens or not it is a deeply

concerning public security issue.

[Nio]

Will be interested to see what the facts turn out

Second issue is if they are found to be 100% innocent they can go after the accuser for substantial damages

[lazyguy]

latest update:

the bail offer of 150.000 THB does not exist anymore. Seba and Noris have to face a court case.

a middlesman has presented an offer to organize releasing one of them for 200,000 THB.

the video of evidence has not left the bank yet. it is not on the way to a central office for copying

as it was said on Saturday. none of the bank staff has seen the video, none of them have asked by

police or recogniced a cell phone while they were processing the money draft last Thursday.

Seba and Noris are jailed for a crime for which no evidence has been presented yet. police investigations

have only noticed the victims statements and not one of a witness.

[apetley]

Getting more suspicious by the sound of things with the 'fixer' appearing on the scene. Reeks of a setup imo.

I would be doing my damnedest to get some sort of false allegation charge against the Thai woman.

[buasaard]

an italian who runs an italian restaurant in ayutthaya, contaced by angiud, has been today to the embassy, and they confirmed that they've always been in charge of the matter. Frankly I hardly think an embassy would leave a citizen without help in hese circumstances as there is also an agreement between italy and thailand for spending part of the time in te italian prisons over a certain time.

I don't know whether they are guilty or not, but there is always the perception i the expat communities that a foreigner in Thailand is cheated by everybody , even their own embassy..

This italian that has his own business to run and a family has been put under pressure for a false statement regarding the embassy.

I'm afraid that sometimes this is used as an alibi....(I repeat that I don't know in this particular case) and if for the police a foreigner is always guilty, it seems that for expats the forigner is always innocent and the embassies do nothing...

[buasaard]

p.s. I'm not blaming angiud, I just wanted to say that before putting people under pressure, someone should think twice...

[Briggsy]

If this is a set-up, the court case may not be settled for months. During this time, the pair would be held under the normal appalling prison conditions. Again if it is a set-up, they will be put under considerable pressure to plead guilty. Spinning out the court case for months is one tactic. The half-sentence for pleading guilty is another. Also the lawyer will be pressured to tell his clients the easiest thing is to plead guilty.

Do not think an embassy can help you in this kind of situation. You are at the mercy of the legal system and your way out of the can is to stump up the bail which you will probably never see again.

This would be the same Ayuthaya police that applied electric shock to a local's genitals to force a confession. May I post a link to the Asian Human Rights Commission website regarding the Ayuthaya police?

Asian Human Rights Commission

[surayu]

May I post a link to the Asian Human Rights Commission website regarding the Ayuthaya police?

Asian Human Rights Commission

...and lets remember that this commission in Thailand is made by the abusers theyrself, it's really like a neverending bad dream

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2009/05/14...al_30102674.php

[buasaard]

I don't know what can do an embassy, but certainly can do more than a common citizen....at least let them try...naturally if the two are not guilty...sooner or later the matter will pass to a judge that will check if the witnesses are consistent....the verdict is not issued by the police.