Alternative Retirement Destinations For Expats (other Than Thailand)

[craigt3365]

As Thailand continues to deteriorate , I too am looking elsewhere, even though I have a large investment in my new Isaan house.

In the last three years I have traveled extensively in SE Asia and covered nearly all alternative places you have listed. My observations follow.

Ist Alternative

Philippines, why ? cost of living same as T, gals, same as T but speak English. health care, excellent world class in Manila, Ok in Cebu as well.

Favorite places, Dumaguette , Bantanyan Island, Forget that cesspool Angeles.

Maylasia, Georgetown only for me and no ta lot to do. Good food and pretty but dull.

Cambodia, PP just nasty, Sihonookville, beach bun paradise, nice bunch of expats and fine little brown girls. Too remote for me.

Siem reap. Nothing but the ruins.

lao, a backwater with no facilities

Vietnam, Ah, 2nd choice. A lot to contend with but beautiful and friendly. Many Many choices. Delat, my favorite. Hochimin, a nightmare, Hanoi, has it all.

If you have specific questions fire away

Spot on...Dalat is a really great place. Maybe a bit too quiet for me, but the fresh veggies are amazing!

I spent a few weeks in Dumaguette...very nice town right on the ocean. Great diving just offshore!

[Tejas]

I would like to know much more about Vietnam....especially the coastal cities. I want to know if there is one place on the ocean that is similar to a small version of Pattaya (condos, nightlife, malls, Western food). I would also like to know more about visa rules and regulations. As an aside, some ThaiVisa posters constantly complain about the intense heat in Thailand (and it will not get any better). They want to know if there are places in Southeast Asia that are cool. I would think northern Vietnam is cool....even cold in the mountains. Dalat? Cool?

For some very useful comments see post #140 (too much info. there to update below).

For an interesting country comparison tool, see this link: http://www.prosperity.com/default.aspx

UPDATE from previous posts (see Vietnam and the Philippines): Reminder: We are talking about alternative where you can "live well" on a monthly income of US$1000 - 1800. The focus is on low-middle income pensioners because these are the ones being hurt most by Thailand's crazy retirement system. Pensioners with big money can retire anywhere. To include them would mean to include all countries. Healthcare, retirement visa system, infrastructure are critical for pensioners (need more info. on these items below). Also, it would be nice to get comments about Western type comforts (food, malls, etc).

Cambodia: massive annual GNP growth, looks like Thailand; friendly people; English spoken widely; more expensive than Thailand but some say less expensive than Thailand; don't want to get sick there but close to Thailand so if it is not an emergency situation you can go to Thailand for medical care; infrastructure improving but long way to go); best visa situation in Asia and good Western food in PP and SR and SNVL. SNVL could, eventually, become the next small version of Pattaya after the international airport opens there.....lots of development plans for SNVL. Same water and sunset view as you find in Pattaya, but far fewer people.

Philippines: safe and unsafe areas; beautiful beaches; storm problem; most people speak English; easy visa system; some possible retirement destinations are Boracay, Dumaguete, Panglao Island, Puerto Galera (avoid Manilla); one poster said this: having lived in the Philippines for 7 yrs as an expat......I can add a few comments about the place. Baguio City is one of the most livable areas in the Phil. High elevation summer capitol with moderate temperatures....but is still prone to the many typhoons that aim at the Phil every year. Weather is never boring there. Down south, there are many nice areas (the islands) that have small expat communities. Camiguin, Cebu (outside the city), Dumagetti, Bohol.....7,100 island to choose from. some 'jewels in the China seas, but lots of ruined enviornment and poor and crumbling infrastructure. Friendly people....sometimes too friendly, but always smiling like Thais. Poverty is much more obvious and the local food is swill. most violent crime is confined to the cities. Local transport is basic, but cheap. roads are the worse i've ever seen and road manners are worse than here. Immigration is much easier than LOS and I think cheaper. One poster added: I spent a few weeks in Dumaguette...very nice town right on the ocean. Great diving just offshore! Philippines, why ? cost of living same as T, gals, same as T but speak English. health care, excellent world class in Manila, Ok in Cebu as well.

Favorite places, Dumaguette , Bantanyan Island, Forget that cesspool Angeles.

Malaysia: have a retirement program to attract foreigners that makes things a lot easier than it is in Thailand; you can own your own house; Malaysia would be easier for many expats (in terms of language, certain kinds of convenience, etc.) There are many more places than Penang to check out; one poster said this about Malaysia: Malaysia probably won't fall into your 1,000-1,800 criteria. For persons over 50 a deposit of $42,500 and monthly income of $2,850 (about 92,000 baht) is required. If you have a government pension of $2,850/mo or more then the deposit is not required. The official program MM2H (Malaysia My 2nd Home) is not bad if you can afford it. I have watched this program change every couple of months for the last two years - mostly good changes. You can import a car duty free (one time) oh, does not apply to motorcycles - sorry Harley. You can buy any number of homes but price has to be above $75,250 each. One poster just added: A couple of pages ago someone mentioned wanting somewhere cooler in south east Asia - how about Cameron Highlands in Malaysia? MM2H is a very good visa system (if you can afford it). 10 year renewable visa - you only need to go to Immigration every 10 years, slight improvement on 90 days here. The visa can be renewed every 10 years on the same terms that you went in on. I also like the fact that, whilst they ask you take out medical insurance, if you are unable to do so all you need to do is a get refusal letter from an insurance company, and they accept that. You can buy property freehold as a foreigner but currently upwards of RM 500,000 (5 million baht equiv). There are rumours that this might change (downwards). Rental prices are not too bad either outside of KL and Penang island. It's English speaking, the food's great.

Vietnam: long coastline; storm prone; developing rapidly; health care in Hanoi reported to be excellent but not good in hinterland; one poster said "not as friendly" as Thailand; one poster said no set visa policy for retirees (think need more info. here); Retirement visa - I don't think they have one, all retirees are said to be married to VN and get 5 year resident visas (5 year resident visa is a big improvement over Thailand); one poster said: ...will be moving to live in Vietnam in a few months.I would say from my previous visits there that Vietnam certainly fulfils most if not all of the above criteria.The only difficult thing might be to find one city or town that has them all.For instance Saigon has good medical facilities but it's relatively expensive for housing and its not cool or particularly clean.Hanoi has good medical facilities,but it is quite dirty,however for part of the year it's actually cold,it certainly was when we were there in January.I've just come back from a 6 week tour of Vietnam,from Hanoi/Ha Long Bay to Hue/Da Nang/Hoi An/Nha Trang /Saigon and the Mekong Delta inc Phu Quoc island.I've been many times before and am married to a Vietnamese girl,we have a 1 year old boy as well.Out of the main tourist areas it's cheaper than Thailand,certainly housing,food and drink.Unfortunately though the medical facilities out in those places leave a lot to be desired,but then transport in Vietnam is relatively good,and if you live reasonably close to a regional airport,its cheap and easy to fly to Saigon/Hanoi.I wouldn't say English is widely spoken, but in the main tourist areas a fair number speak it.It's a lot easier to learn Vietnamese than Thai,the alphabet is similar to ours, the words are shorter and although it is a tonal language,the version of Vietnamese written today was basically invented by the French last century.The visa situation is easier there(for me anyway).Because I am married to a Vietnamese,I have a 5 year visa EXEMPTION,it's not a visa,just a sticker in my passport saying I don't need a visa.The only thing is that I can't stay in Vietnam more than 90 days at a time,so I will have to leave every 90 days(very similar to the Non O here).It may well be that I can get some sort of residence visa when I am there,I will have to find out,or maybe someone there knows the answer to that?). more on visas by one poster: Update on the visa situation for VN. I visited the immigration office in Ha Noi last week and was told by the lady that says she issues residence visas that there is no such thing as a retirement visa for VN, you can only get a 6 month visa uless you are there for work or an investor. Also being married or dependent only entitles you to a 6 month visa that can be renewed continually. If you have a visa exemption that entitles you to a 3 month stay this can be renewed continually at a cost of $10 per renewal. This is what the Immigration Officer TOLD me and did not show any written regulations to support this. I know that one TV member has managed to get a 1 year visa after completion of his work in VN but guess that may have been with the help of some $$? Two posters added: Dalat is a really great place. Maybe a bit too quiet for me, but the fresh veggies are amazing! Vietnam, Ah, 2nd choice. A lot to contend with but beautiful and friendly. Many Many choices. Delat, my favorite. Hochimin, a nightmare, Hanoi, has it all.

Indonesia: visa system is not that easy; Bali in expensive in some areas and not so expensive in others; Lombok has been mentioned as one other possibility; certainly Indonesia has thousands of islands; earthquake problem

Lao PDR: Unsure if cheaper than Thailand; can be pleasant according to one poster; one poster added this about food: lovely breads and bakeries widely available and delicious

China: Kunming is the City of Eternal Spring (sounds like cool weather); China is huge and difficult to generalize about; Zhuhai across from Macau is a popular retirement destination (nice city in my opinion). NEED RETIREMENT VISA POLICY

Panama: Panama sensed an opportunity and developed a retiree incentive program that International Living calls the world's best. One retirement opt is based on showing a pension (or social security) of only 500 USD plus 100 USD per dependent (somebody check for accuracy). Retirees get discounts on travel, entertainment, shopping, services. But like Costa Rica so many have moved in that the country is having growing pains. Like Thailand most of the country is very hot and humid. The highland town of Boquette has a very nice climate and has been heavily promoted by International Living. And it's First World prices reflect that.

Argentina: Argentina became the single best bargain in Latin America, possibly the world, after their monetary crisis of 2002. Literally overnight after their peso was devalued costs were 75% less in American Dollars. Unfortunately while the exchange rate has hovered around 3.8 Pesos to the Dollar rampant inflation has brought costs back up close to where they were pre-crisis. However outside of Buenos Aires there are many choices with a good quality of life that are reasonably priced. And as one of the world's largest countries there's climate and scenery that suits about anyone. They have some nice beach towns but winter weather on the coast is pretty raw. Some cities popular with expats are Mendoza, Bariloche, Salta, and Cordoba. But Buenos Aires is the big draw for foreigners, world class city if you are an urbanite; great beef. A reminder about Argentina, there is no bank account method to qualify, you must have a permanent income, or no go for the retirement visa (maybe too expensive for the pensioners in question.....not sure); Many expats make border runs on tourist cards for many years. Argentina has no problem with that. Google Buenos Aires Expats Forum for tons of info. Many Argentines speak English. The Buenos Aires Herald is an excellent newspaper in English. Still, once there you'd want to take classes and get up to speed. I think the inflation issue is serious, but it may lead to another crisis. Might be worth moving there for a few years if the Peso is devalued again. Can always plan your next move while enjoying the best steaks in the world at near giveaway prices! According to one poster who has been there, there are reports of Argentina hassling people doing too many tourist card runs, it isn't predictable; Living there on tourists cards means you won't get a DNI number, you can never settle there very well without one (bank accounts, utilities, perhaps even health insurance (not sure)), in any case it is an important thing for many aspects of living there and a passport number doesn't replace it; Another great thing, overstays are not criminalized. People deal with it by flying out and paying a small fine, then returning and starting all over again; Expats mostly learn Spanish, yes it is easier than Thai, but there are functional reasons. For example, go the websites to do things there (businesses, etc.) and it is all Spanish, no translations. Unlike Thailand where English has almost become a semi-official second language. That definitely is not the case in Argentina. Of course there is some English media, and an English expat forum; Yes the peso can change, and the country has a recent history of economic volatility; If you do have a verifiable retirement income stream, the amount required is quite low, probably all US social security recipients can qualify, but all of the required money must be imported into a bank there annually; It certainly is a great place to visit, best steaks and excellent wine, very interesting people (very high per capita rates of both psychotherapy and cosmetic surgery! Argentina, between rising costs and hassles, isn't worth it (according to one poster). The hassles are endless red tape and systemic corruption. I've read many times that get away from the biggest cities and the people are some of the most genuinely friendly in the world. If the most beautiful women in the world is what you are after then Argentina is definitely in the running. Go to Google Images, search Argentinian babe, holy Toledo! Some other things about Argentina...97% European heritage. 50% Italian, 30% Spanish, substantial English, Irish, French, German, Welsh and other minorities. Argentines like to camp, campgrounds in most towns. You'll find cineplexes in most small cities and large cities have multiple choices. Most American movies play there, usually in English with Spanish subtitles unless childrens' movie. Actually American owned cineplexes are in most of Latin America now, especially Cinemark. Argentina is slightly smaller than India but only has about 44 million people. It's one of the few countries that produces everything it needs but is so poorly managed it struggles financially. The gov't confiscated the national retirement fund last year to pay for it's socialist programs. Buenos Aires has far and away the best bookstores in Latin America. It's a very literate population. COOL WEATHER: Bariloche es AWESOME! This place really does have it all. It is absolutely beautiful, the Andes provide an almost unbelievable backdrop for this mid-size ski town. Bariloche sits about 10-15 km from Cerro Catedral, which is actually the most prominent ski area in South America; has change of seasons

Chile: Chile is easily one of the most corruption free and stable countries in the Americas, and also one of the most amicable to foreigners looking to relocate or retire.; Puerto Monte in the south has is a European-like town overlooking the ocean and Andes Mountains; has change of seasons

Costa Rica: sort of the Thailand of Latin America. It was the top expat location but so many foreigners moved in that the government ended most of the great retiree incentives it offered. Crime and costs have soared. Still, many expats there but also many moved out, especially to Panama; Pensionado required income USD 1000/mo, and not so good - rentista USD 2500/mo--must show money was converted to colons; getting expensive; housing costs have doubled in top areas; now required to join country social security; armed robbery and carjacking now a daily event; Costa Rica is nice but the benefits are going down at a rapid rate

Mexico: gorgeous coastline overlooking Pacific; great food; one poster added the following: Favorite place is San Cristobal de las Casas, Chiapas, Mexico. Go to Google Images to see pictures. City is about 140,000, has multiplex playing American movies in English, best English language bookstore in Mexico, Walmart and Sam's club are opening stores there, has beautiful pedestrian only streets in the center, can be comfortable there on $700 a month, live very well on $1200. Unlike northern Mexico these days, San Cristobal is safe, with much to see and do. Single biggest drawback is wet season with alot of rain. But at 7000' overall it's mild most of the time, but nights can get chilly.

Colombia: gone a long way towards fixing it's problems. Terrorist groups have been marginalized to remote areas and drug cartels are no longer threatening stability. Bogota's north side looks like a prosperous American city. Security is everywhere, people go out there. The city that's attracting alot of expats is Medellin. It has a year'round spring like climate and is very clean; Colombia officially requires a substantial pension to live there, but doesn't enforce it. Expats are living comfortably there in smaller cities for much less than $1000 a month. Definitely a place you need Spanish though to truly enjoy it. I think the Group is called Colombia_Expats, not certain.

Chile: most expensive country in Latin America as well as it's most prosperous with excellent infrastructure; stunning views of the ocean and mountains; can get very cold is the south; lots of Europeans have already retired there in so-called "little Switzerland" areas

Ecuador: good retirement visa system; one city in particular, Cuenca, that is very beautiful, mild but cool climate, all the amenities; does have crime issues. Somebody mentioned Esmeraldes which is the most crime ridden area of the country. Cuenca in general is safe, using common sense; one poster said: Regarding Ecuador Visa, your best bet should be STUDENT VISA, which 's easy&cheaper and easy to be extended tax free, just start searching a spanish language school now in quito or other small town in ecuador. and obtaining that letter for admission to an Ecuadorian language school; another poster concerned about visas and crime: It is clear their retirement visa is easily obtainable if you have a provable pension of a "certain amount" which I think isn't much. However the other alternative options are very unclear to me. If anyone understands what they mean exactly on how to qualify without a pension, let us know.

http://www.ecuador.org/immigrantvisas.htm Also the dollarization there is attractive to Americans, no exchange rate worries.

I have begun to plan trips there a few times, but every time I do, reading about the horrible crime situation in Quito has put me off; once you arrive in quito, you'll have plenty of time to find the a resonably-priced agent which can arrange your retirement visa package hassel free; another poster: Last I read Ecuador will give permanent residency by either buying real estate worth at least $25,000 or depositing $25k in an Ecuadorean bank. That gives you all the rights of citizens except right to vote or hold office.

Uruguay: Google UruguayLiving.com for an excellent forum. Uruguay has low violent crime but serious property crime. You have to be vigilant to live there. A British couple went out to eat their first day there to take a break from unpacking. Came back 3 hrs later to find everything gone! It's a serious problem there. One place I like is Colonia del Sacramento, possibly the prettiest colonial town in South America and Portugese colonial to boot. Interesting thing is it's about 1.5 hrs by ferry across from Buenos Aires. It's where B.A. expats go to renew their tourist cards. One poster really sees it as a good alternative to Thailand.

Belize: according to one poster, it is the most expensive country in Central America (find hard to believe and would like more information on cost of living) and yet has minimal infrastructure. It's real draw is beach living and it's islands. However crime, especially in Belize City, is very high; great lobsters; scuba diving; Belize pegs it's money 2:1 to the American Dollar. That, along with most items are imported as little is produced locally, keeps things fairly expensive. If you live like a local, living in a simple wood house and eating mostly beans and rice and chicken you can live cheaply. That also means no air conditioning, no car, limited electricity. If you want an American lifestyle you'll pay alot, and still have to do without things like modern supermarkets. There are 2 paved 2 lane highways in the country, one north-south, one east-west.

Turkey: NEW TO THE LIST.......if you live there or have lived there, please gives us some input on the place.

Please add your first hand observations to the list above.........thanks.

[Naam]

"A couple of pages ago someone mentioned wanting somewhere cooler in south east Asia - how about Cameron Highlands in Malaysia?"

most beautiful area to live but unfortunately extremely poor infrastructure.

[REDRAM]

If it were me I would be checking out Cambodia, for the very reason all my money is USD and they use USD!

So I would not have to concern myself with the conversion.

I have spent some time there and had a very good time, and now I see that a foreigner can own property there with the stipulation it is not on the ground floor!

[PattayaParent]

I would like to know much more about Vietnam....especially the coastal cities. I want to know if there is one place on the ocean that is similar to a small version of Pattaya (condos, nightlife, malls, Western food). I would also like to know more about visa rules and regulations. As an aside, some ThaiVisa posters constantly complain about the intense heat in Thailand (and it will not get any better). They want to know if there are places in Southeast Asia that are cool. I would think northern Vietnam is cool....even cold in the mountains. Dalat? Cool?

Do Son, near Hai Phong in North Viet Nam.

And you'll need heaters in the winter.

[LaoPo]

"A couple of pages ago someone mentioned wanting somewhere cooler in south east Asia - how about Cameron Highlands in Malaysia?"

most beautiful area to live but unfortunately extremely poor infrastructure.

That's where Jim Thompson mysteriously disappeared, March 26th, 1967 on a Sunday at Easter and was never found again.

He was the man who revitalized Thailands' silk industry and also a man with many alleged mysteries around his character as well.

I just noticed that a book was published in 2010 that his disappearance is solved....hmmm

Sorry for jumping off topic.

LaoPo

[craigt3365]

I was on my way to visit the Cameroon Highlands a few years ago...but the wife's sister announced a wedding and we had to cancel the trip. Bummer to hear the infrastructure is not up to snuff. Sounded like a nice place.

Dalat in Vietnam is at a higher altitude. No much to do there, though. And for sure it gets cold in the north of Vietnam. I was there a few years ago and canceled a trip up to the mountains as the roads were closed due to snow!

Nha Trang is a place quite a few folks like. Some expats there as well. Nice beach.

[Tejas]

Hope I did not make a mistake with the update below..........think Do Son in northern Vietnam is the place "similar to" Pattaya? Need feedback.

For some very useful comments see post #140 (too much info. there to update below).

For an interesting country comparison tool, see this link: http://www.prosperity.com/default.aspx

UPDATE from previous posts (see Vietnam and Malaysia): Reminder: We are talking about alternative where you can "live well" on a monthly income of US$1000 - 1800. The focus is on low-middle income pensioners because these are the ones being hurt most by Thailand's crazy retirement system. Pensioners with big money can retire anywhere. To include them would mean to include all countries. Healthcare, retirement visa system, infrastructure are critical for pensioners (need more info. on these items below). Also, it would be nice to get comments about Western type comforts (food, malls, etc).

Cambodia: massive annual GNP growth, looks like Thailand; friendly people; English spoken widely; more expensive than Thailand but some say less expensive than Thailand; don't want to get sick there but close to Thailand so if it is not an emergency situation you can go to Thailand for medical care; infrastructure improving but long way to go); best visa situation in Asia and good Western food in PP and SR and SNVL. SNVL could, eventually, become the next small version of Pattaya after the international airport opens there.....lots of development plans for SNVL. Same water and sunset view as you find in Pattaya, but far fewer people.

Philippines: safe and unsafe areas; beautiful beaches; storm problem; most people speak English; easy visa system; some possible retirement destinations are Boracay, Dumaguete, Panglao Island, Puerto Galera (avoid Manilla); one poster said this: having lived in the Philippines for 7 yrs as an expat......I can add a few comments about the place. Baguio City is one of the most livable areas in the Phil. High elevation summer capitol with moderate temperatures....but is still prone to the many typhoons that aim at the Phil every year. Weather is never boring there. Down south, there are many nice areas (the islands) that have small expat communities. Camiguin, Cebu (outside the city), Dumagetti, Bohol.....7,100 island to choose from. some 'jewels in the China seas, but lots of ruined enviornment and poor and crumbling infrastructure. Friendly people....sometimes too friendly, but always smiling like Thais. Poverty is much more obvious and the local food is swill. most violent crime is confined to the cities. Local transport is basic, but cheap. roads are the worse i've ever seen and road manners are worse than here. Immigration is much easier than LOS and I think cheaper. One poster added: I spent a few weeks in Dumaguette...very nice town right on the ocean. Great diving just offshore! Philippines, why ? cost of living same as T, gals, same as T but speak English. health care, excellent world class in Manila, Ok in Cebu as well.

Favorite places, Dumaguette , Bantanyan Island, Forget that cesspool Angeles.

Malaysia: have a retirement program to attract foreigners that makes things a lot easier than it is in Thailand; you can own your own house; Malaysia would be easier for many expats (in terms of language, certain kinds of convenience, etc.) There are many more places than Penang to check out; one poster said this about Malaysia: Malaysia probably won't fall into your 1,000-1,800 criteria. For persons over 50 a deposit of $42,500 and monthly income of $2,850 (about 92,000 baht) is required. If you have a government pension of $2,850/mo or more then the deposit is not required. The official program MM2H (Malaysia My 2nd Home) is not bad if you can afford it. I have watched this program change every couple of months for the last two years - mostly good changes. You can import a car duty free (one time) oh, does not apply to motorcycles - sorry Harley. You can buy any number of homes but price has to be above $75,250 each. One poster just added: A couple of pages ago someone mentioned wanting somewhere cooler in south east Asia - how about Cameron Highlands in Malaysia? MM2H is a very good visa system (if you can afford it). 10 year renewable visa - you only need to go to Immigration every 10 years, slight improvement on 90 days here. The visa can be renewed every 10 years on the same terms that you went in on. I also like the fact that, whilst they ask you take out medical insurance, if you are unable to do so all you need to do is a get refusal letter from an insurance company, and they accept that. You can buy property freehold as a foreigner but currently upwards of RM 500,000 (5 million baht equiv). There are rumours that this might change (downwards). Rental prices are not too bad either outside of KL and Penang island. It's English speaking, the food's great. More on Malaysia: Cameron Highlands in Malaysia?" most beautiful area to live but unfortunately extremely poor infrastructure (think it is cool there).

Vietnam: long coastline; storm prone; developing rapidly; health care in Hanoi reported to be excellent but not good in hinterland; one poster said "not as friendly" as Thailand; one poster said no set visa policy for retirees (think need more info. here); Retirement visa - I don't think they have one, all retirees are said to be married to VN and get 5 year resident visas (5 year resident visa is a big improvement over Thailand); one poster said: ...will be moving to live in Vietnam in a few months.I would say from my previous visits there that Vietnam certainly fulfils most if not all of the above criteria.The only difficult thing might be to find one city or town that has them all.For instance Saigon has good medical facilities but it's relatively expensive for housing and its not cool or particularly clean.Hanoi has good medical facilities,but it is quite dirty,however for part of the year it's actually cold,it certainly was when we were there in January.I've just come back from a 6 week tour of Vietnam,from Hanoi/Ha Long Bay to Hue/Da Nang/Hoi An/Nha Trang /Saigon and the Mekong Delta inc Phu Quoc island.I've been many times before and am married to a Vietnamese girl,we have a 1 year old boy as well.Out of the main tourist areas it's cheaper than Thailand,certainly housing,food and drink.Unfortunately though the medical facilities out in those places leave a lot to be desired,but then transport in Vietnam is relatively good,and if you live reasonably close to a regional airport,its cheap and easy to fly to Saigon/Hanoi.I wouldn't say English is widely spoken, but in the main tourist areas a fair number speak it.It's a lot easier to learn Vietnamese than Thai,the alphabet is similar to ours, the words are shorter and although it is a tonal language,the version of Vietnamese written today was basically invented by the French last century.The visa situation is easier there(for me anyway).Because I am married to a Vietnamese,I have a 5 year visa EXEMPTION,it's not a visa,just a sticker in my passport saying I don't need a visa.The only thing is that I can't stay in Vietnam more than 90 days at a time,so I will have to leave every 90 days(very similar to the Non O here).It may well be that I can get some sort of residence visa when I am there,I will have to find out,or maybe someone there knows the answer to that?). more on visas by one poster: Update on the visa situation for VN. I visited the immigration office in Ha Noi last week and was told by the lady that says she issues residence visas that there is no such thing as a retirement visa for VN, you can only get a 6 month visa uless you are there for work or an investor. Also being married or dependent only entitles you to a 6 month visa that can be renewed continually. If you have a visa exemption that entitles you to a 3 month stay this can be renewed continually at a cost of $10 per renewal. This is what the Immigration Officer TOLD me and did not show any written regulations to support this. I know that one TV member has managed to get a 1 year visa after completion of his work in VN but guess that may have been with the help of some $$? Two posters added: Dalat is a really great place. Maybe a bit too quiet for me, but the fresh veggies. More: Dalat in Vietnam is at a higher altitude. No much to do there, though. And for sure it gets cold in the north of Vietnam. I was there a few years ago and canceled a trip up to the mountains as the roads were closed due to snow! Nha Trang is a place quite a few folks like. Some expats there as well. Nice beach. amazing! Vietnam, Ah, 2nd choice. A lot to contend with but beautiful and friendly. Many Many choices. Delat, my favorite. Hochimin, a nightmare, Hanoi, has it all. More: Do Son, near Hai Phong in North Viet Nam (talking about a coastal city similar to Pattaya with cool climate).

Indonesia: visa system is not that easy; Bali in expensive in some areas and not so expensive in others; Lombok has been mentioned as one other possibility; certainly Indonesia has thousands of islands; earthquake problem

Lao PDR: Unsure if cheaper than Thailand; can be pleasant according to one poster; one poster added this about food: lovely breads and bakeries widely available and delicious

China: Kunming is the City of Eternal Spring (sounds like cool weather); China is huge and difficult to generalize about; Zhuhai across from Macau is a popular retirement destination (nice city in my opinion). NEED RETIREMENT VISA POLICY

Panama: Panama sensed an opportunity and developed a retiree incentive program that International Living calls the world's best. One retirement opt is based on showing a pension (or social security) of only 500 USD plus 100 USD per dependent (somebody check for accuracy). Retirees get discounts on travel, entertainment, shopping, services. But like Costa Rica so many have moved in that the country is having growing pains. Like Thailand most of the country is very hot and humid. The highland town of Boquette has a very nice climate and has been heavily promoted by International Living. And it's First World prices reflect that.

Argentina: Argentina became the single best bargain in Latin America, possibly the world, after their monetary crisis of 2002. Literally overnight after their peso was devalued costs were 75% less in American Dollars. Unfortunately while the exchange rate has hovered around 3.8 Pesos to the Dollar rampant inflation has brought costs back up close to where they were pre-crisis. However outside of Buenos Aires there are many choices with a good quality of life that are reasonably priced. And as one of the world's largest countries there's climate and scenery that suits about anyone. They have some nice beach towns but winter weather on the coast is pretty raw. Some cities popular with expats are Mendoza, Bariloche, Salta, and Cordoba. But Buenos Aires is the big draw for foreigners, world class city if you are an urbanite; great beef. A reminder about Argentina, there is no bank account method to qualify, you must have a permanent income, or no go for the retirement visa (maybe too expensive for the pensioners in question.....not sure); Many expats make border runs on tourist cards for many years. Argentina has no problem with that. Google Buenos Aires Expats Forum for tons of info. Many Argentines speak English. The Buenos Aires Herald is an excellent newspaper in English. Still, once there you'd want to take classes and get up to speed. I think the inflation issue is serious, but it may lead to another crisis. Might be worth moving there for a few years if the Peso is devalued again. Can always plan your next move while enjoying the best steaks in the world at near giveaway prices! According to one poster who has been there, there are reports of Argentina hassling people doing too many tourist card runs, it isn't predictable; Living there on tourists cards means you won't get a DNI number, you can never settle there very well without one (bank accounts, utilities, perhaps even health insurance (not sure)), in any case it is an important thing for many aspects of living there and a passport number doesn't replace it; Another great thing, overstays are not criminalized. People deal with it by flying out and paying a small fine, then returning and starting all over again; Expats mostly learn Spanish, yes it is easier than Thai, but there are functional reasons. For example, go the websites to do things there (businesses, etc.) and it is all Spanish, no translations. Unlike Thailand where English has almost become a semi-official second language. That definitely is not the case in Argentina. Of course there is some English media, and an English expat forum; Yes the peso can change, and the country has a recent history of economic volatility; If you do have a verifiable retirement income stream, the amount required is quite low, probably all US social security recipients can qualify, but all of the required money must be imported into a bank there annually; It certainly is a great place to visit, best steaks and excellent wine, very interesting people (very high per capita rates of both psychotherapy and cosmetic surgery! Argentina, between rising costs and hassles, isn't worth it (according to one poster). The hassles are endless red tape and systemic corruption. I've read many times that get away from the biggest cities and the people are some of the most genuinely friendly in the world. If the most beautiful women in the world is what you are after then Argentina is definitely in the running. Go to Google Images, search Argentinian babe, holy Toledo! Some other things about Argentina...97% European heritage. 50% Italian, 30% Spanish, substantial English, Irish, French, German, Welsh and other minorities. Argentines like to camp, campgrounds in most towns. You'll find cineplexes in most small cities and large cities have multiple choices. Most American movies play there, usually in English with Spanish subtitles unless childrens' movie. Actually American owned cineplexes are in most of Latin America now, especially Cinemark. Argentina is slightly smaller than India but only has about 44 million people. It's one of the few countries that produces everything it needs but is so poorly managed it struggles financially. The gov't confiscated the national retirement fund last year to pay for it's socialist programs. Buenos Aires has far and away the best bookstores in Latin America. It's a very literate population. COOL WEATHER: Bariloche es AWESOME! This place really does have it all. It is absolutely beautiful, the Andes provide an almost unbelievable backdrop for this mid-size ski town. Bariloche sits about 10-15 km from Cerro Catedral, which is actually the most prominent ski area in South America; has change of seasons

Chile: Chile is easily one of the most corruption free and stable countries in the Americas, and also one of the most amicable to foreigners looking to relocate or retire.; Puerto Monte in the south has is a European-like town overlooking the ocean and Andes Mountains; has change of seasons

Costa Rica: sort of the Thailand of Latin America. It was the top expat location but so many foreigners moved in that the government ended most of the great retiree incentives it offered. Crime and costs have soared. Still, many expats there but also many moved out, especially to Panama; Pensionado required income USD 1000/mo, and not so good - rentista USD 2500/mo--must show money was converted to colons; getting expensive; housing costs have doubled in top areas; now required to join country social security; armed robbery and carjacking now a daily event; Costa Rica is nice but the benefits are going down at a rapid rate

Mexico: gorgeous coastline overlooking Pacific; great food; one poster added the following: Favorite place is San Cristobal de las Casas, Chiapas, Mexico. Go to Google Images to see pictures. City is about 140,000, has multiplex playing American movies in English, best English language bookstore in Mexico, Walmart and Sam's club are opening stores there, has beautiful pedestrian only streets in the center, can be comfortable there on $700 a month, live very well on $1200. Unlike northern Mexico these days, San Cristobal is safe, with much to see and do. Single biggest drawback is wet season with alot of rain. But at 7000' overall it's mild most of the time, but nights can get chilly.

Colombia: gone a long way towards fixing it's problems. Terrorist groups have been marginalized to remote areas and drug cartels are no longer threatening stability. Bogota's north side looks like a prosperous American city. Security is everywhere, people go out there. The city that's attracting alot of expats is Medellin. It has a year'round spring like climate and is very clean; Colombia officially requires a substantial pension to live there, but doesn't enforce it. Expats are living comfortably there in smaller cities for much less than $1000 a month. Definitely a place you need Spanish though to truly enjoy it. I think the Group is called Colombia_Expats, not certain.

Chile: most expensive country in Latin America as well as it's most prosperous with excellent infrastructure; stunning views of the ocean and mountains; can get very cold is the south; lots of Europeans have already retired there in so-called "little Switzerland" areas

Ecuador: good retirement visa system; one city in particular, Cuenca, that is very beautiful, mild but cool climate, all the amenities; does have crime issues. Somebody mentioned Esmeraldes which is the most crime ridden area of the country. Cuenca in general is safe, using common sense; one poster said: Regarding Ecuador Visa, your best bet should be STUDENT VISA, which 's easy&cheaper and easy to be extended tax free, just start searching a spanish language school now in quito or other small town in ecuador. and obtaining that letter for admission to an Ecuadorian language school; another poster concerned about visas and crime: It is clear their retirement visa is easily obtainable if you have a provable pension of a "certain amount" which I think isn't much. However the other alternative options are very unclear to me. If anyone understands what they mean exactly on how to qualify without a pension, let us know.

http://www.ecuador.org/immigrantvisas.htm Also the dollarization there is attractive to Americans, no exchange rate worries.

I have begun to plan trips there a few times, but every time I do, reading about the horrible crime situation in Quito has put me off; once you arrive in quito, you'll have plenty of time to find the a resonably-priced agent which can arrange your retirement visa package hassel free; another poster: Last I read Ecuador will give permanent residency by either buying real estate worth at least $25,000 or depositing $25k in an Ecuadorean bank. That gives you all the rights of citizens except right to vote or hold office.

Uruguay: Google UruguayLiving.com for an excellent forum. Uruguay has low violent crime but serious property crime. You have to be vigilant to live there. A British couple went out to eat their first day there to take a break from unpacking. Came back 3 hrs later to find everything gone! It's a serious problem there. One place I like is Colonia del Sacramento, possibly the prettiest colonial town in South America and Portugese colonial to boot. Interesting thing is it's about 1.5 hrs by ferry across from Buenos Aires. It's where B.A. expats go to renew their tourist cards. One poster really sees it as a good alternative to Thailand.

Belize: according to one poster, it is the most expensive country in Central America (find hard to believe and would like more information on cost of living) and yet has minimal infrastructure. It's real draw is beach living and it's islands. However crime, especially in Belize City, is very high; great lobsters; scuba diving; Belize pegs it's money 2:1 to the American Dollar. That, along with most items are imported as little is produced locally, keeps things fairly expensive. If you live like a local, living in a simple wood house and eating mostly beans and rice and chicken you can live cheaply. That also means no air conditioning, no car, limited electricity. If you want an American lifestyle you'll pay alot, and still have to do without things like modern supermarkets. There are 2 paved 2 lane highways in the country, one north-south, one east-west.

Turkey: NEW TO THE LIST.......if you live there or have lived there, please gives us some input on the place.

Please add your first hand observations to the list above.........thanks.

[gougouluxembourg]

China gives one Year Visa, multiple Entries when married.

Hainan, Sanya is a wonderfull place, Prices, Rent, Food nearly same as LOS.Redwine much cheaper. Good and cheap flight connections. Like the Food :-)

[Brocher]

oops! if forgot to mention a phantastic place for retirees:

Königswusterhausen, Germany

As I've noticed before you seem to have a weird sense of humour - not at all funny or helpful in most cases but I guess it amuses you. Personally I don't think that posting silly misleading nonsense is funny....

[shiva2009]

I'd suggest Indonesia; anywhere near the coast on the Western side of Java, or perhaps Lombok.

They do have a retirement visa program plus alternatives if you have a local contact / wife / sponsor.

I still have a few years to go, but I plan to spend a few months there this year and travel around a bit.

I also have a friend who retired to Nepal - he's enjoying himself.

Londo

Thanks..........I have never lived in Nepal (did live in India more than once). I never thought of it as an alternative to Thailand.

Surely it must be beautiful in places and much cooler than Southeast Asia.

Indonesia.....once lived in Bali. But you need money to live there and the visa issues are real (as you stated......helps to have a contact, wife, sponsor).

Bali is, of course, not particularly representative of Indonesia. I do know one expat in Thailand who would happily retire in Indonesia.

Lombok: I was there when all hel_l broke lose........Muslims starting fighting Christians and burning stuff (great scuba diving though).

There must be some nice places to live in Indonesia........I am not sure where.

Remember a lot of the expats in Thailand that I am talking about are spoiled (like me).

They want the malls and Western foods and good health care......etc.

I would be concerned about health in both Indonesia and Nepal (especially Nepal).

One thing that can't be denied: Thailand is good for expats in terms of the health facilities it offers.

In fact, IMHO, Thailand is #1 in terms of health care.

That must keep a lot of elderly expats in Thailand when they would rather move out.

In regards to living in Bali, I would suggest the other side of the Island, Lovina is just gorgeous, black volcanic sand & prestine beaches, 5 minutes up the road if you prefer the tropical forest areas with views of the ocean then Kalibukbuk or Kaliasem.. There is an emergancy medical clinic, run by a Western Women.. And for convieniences that you will find in a big town, you have all the services you need from the Old Capital just 7km down the road Singrajah (think thats how you spell it) Lovina has lovely traditional style hotels & resturants & beach Warungs, fresh fruit sellers on the beach & internet warungs.. The beauty is that there is not many tourists here as most stay on the other side of island in Kuta etc.. There is also the Old Capital Airport for travel to connecting flights to Denpesar Airport.. Visa can be tricky, but there are great people to help you out.. Fantastic Expat Community all over the island with their own website forum site, just google it, aslo you can live quiet comfortably for under AU$1000.00 per month.. Hope this helps!!

[shiva2009]

Also I should add, a friend of mine wants to retire in Peru, that maybe another choice?????

[craigt3365]

Also I should add, a friend of mine wants to retire in Peru, that maybe another choice?????

I spent about a month in Peru. Lima is a pit. Crime is really bad. Roads around the country are fair, but lots of accidents. Crime around the country is a real problem. But, some fantastic trekking in the north, a very long coast line, Colca canyon and Inca ruins in the south/east and even a bit of the Amazon in the east. So, lots of outdoor activities. And it is definitely cheap. I would lean towards Argentina first, Chile second. Maybe the NE part of Brazil after that?

Bali is an amazing island. I have not been to many "South Pacific" islands...but Bali is truly a paradise...as long as you avoid Kuta....

[Tejas]

For some very useful comments see post #140 (too much info. there to update below).

For an interesting country comparison tool, see this link: http://www.prosperity.com/default.aspx

UPDATE from previous posts (see Indonesia and China): Reminder: We are talking about alternative where you can "live well" on a monthly income of US$1000 - 1800. The focus is on low-middle income pensioners because these are the ones being hurt most by Thailand's crazy retirement system. Pensioners with big money can retire anywhere. To include them would mean to include all countries. Healthcare, retirement visa system, infrastructure are critical for pensioners (need more info. on these items below). Also, it would be nice to get comments about Western type comforts (food, malls, etc).

Cambodia: massive annual GNP growth, looks like Thailand; friendly people; English spoken widely; more expensive than Thailand but some say less expensive than Thailand; don't want to get sick there but close to Thailand so if it is not an emergency situation you can go to Thailand for medical care; infrastructure improving but long way to go); best visa situation in Asia and good Western food in PP and SR and SNVL. SNVL could, eventually, become the next small version of Pattaya after the international airport opens there.....lots of development plans for SNVL. Same water and sunset view as you find in Pattaya, but far fewer people.

Philippines: safe and unsafe areas; beautiful beaches; storm problem; most people speak English; easy visa system; some possible retirement destinations are Boracay, Dumaguete, Panglao Island, Puerto Galera (avoid Manilla); one poster said this: having lived in the Philippines for 7 yrs as an expat......I can add a few comments about the place. Baguio City is one of the most livable areas in the Phil. High elevation summer capitol with moderate temperatures....but is still prone to the many typhoons that aim at the Phil every year. Weather is never boring there. Down south, there are many nice areas (the islands) that have small expat communities. Camiguin, Cebu (outside the city), Dumagetti, Bohol.....7,100 island to choose from. some 'jewels in the China seas, but lots of ruined enviornment and poor and crumbling infrastructure. Friendly people....sometimes too friendly, but always smiling like Thais. Poverty is much more obvious and the local food is swill. most violent crime is confined to the cities. Local transport is basic, but cheap. roads are the worse i've ever seen and road manners are worse than here. Immigration is much easier than LOS and I think cheaper. One poster added: I spent a few weeks in Dumaguette...very nice town right on the ocean. Great diving just offshore! Philippines, why ? cost of living same as T, gals, same as T but speak English. health care, excellent world class in Manila, Ok in Cebu as well.

Favorite places, Dumaguette , Bantanyan Island, Forget that cesspool Angeles.

Malaysia: have a retirement program to attract foreigners that makes things a lot easier than it is in Thailand; you can own your own house; Malaysia would be easier for many expats (in terms of language, certain kinds of convenience, etc.) There are many more places than Penang to check out; one poster said this about Malaysia: Malaysia probably won't fall into your 1,000-1,800 criteria. For persons over 50 a deposit of $42,500 and monthly income of $2,850 (about 92,000 baht) is required. If you have a government pension of $2,850/mo or more then the deposit is not required. The official program MM2H (Malaysia My 2nd Home) is not bad if you can afford it. I have watched this program change every couple of months for the last two years - mostly good changes. You can import a car duty free (one time) oh, does not apply to motorcycles - sorry Harley. You can buy any number of homes but price has to be above $75,250 each. One poster just added: A couple of pages ago someone mentioned wanting somewhere cooler in south east Asia - how about Cameron Highlands in Malaysia? MM2H is a very good visa system (if you can afford it). 10 year renewable visa - you only need to go to Immigration every 10 years, slight improvement on 90 days here. The visa can be renewed every 10 years on the same terms that you went in on. I also like the fact that, whilst they ask you take out medical insurance, if you are unable to do so all you need to do is a get refusal letter from an insurance company, and they accept that. You can buy property freehold as a foreigner but currently upwards of RM 500,000 (5 million baht equiv). There are rumours that this might change (downwards). Rental prices are not too bad either outside of KL and Penang island. It's English speaking, the food's great. More on Malaysia: Cameron Highlands in Malaysia?" most beautiful area to live but unfortunately extremely poor infrastructure (think it is cool there).

Vietnam: long coastline; storm prone; developing rapidly; health care in Hanoi reported to be excellent but not good in hinterland; one poster said "not as friendly" as Thailand; one poster said no set visa policy for retirees (think need more info. here); Retirement visa - I don't think they have one, all retirees are said to be married to VN and get 5 year resident visas (5 year resident visa is a big improvement over Thailand); one poster said: ...will be moving to live in Vietnam in a few months.I would say from my previous visits there that Vietnam certainly fulfils most if not all of the above criteria.The only difficult thing might be to find one city or town that has them all.For instance Saigon has good medical facilities but it's relatively expensive for housing and its not cool or particularly clean.Hanoi has good medical facilities,but it is quite dirty,however for part of the year it's actually cold,it certainly was when we were there in January.I've just come back from a 6 week tour of Vietnam,from Hanoi/Ha Long Bay to Hue/Da Nang/Hoi An/Nha Trang /Saigon and the Mekong Delta inc Phu Quoc island.I've been many times before and am married to a Vietnamese girl,we have a 1 year old boy as well.Out of the main tourist areas it's cheaper than Thailand,certainly housing,food and drink.Unfortunately though the medical facilities out in those places leave a lot to be desired,but then transport in Vietnam is relatively good,and if you live reasonably close to a regional airport,its cheap and easy to fly to Saigon/Hanoi.I wouldn't say English is widely spoken, but in the main tourist areas a fair number speak it.It's a lot easier to learn Vietnamese than Thai,the alphabet is similar to ours, the words are shorter and although it is a tonal language,the version of Vietnamese written today was basically invented by the French last century.The visa situation is easier there(for me anyway).Because I am married to a Vietnamese,I have a 5 year visa EXEMPTION,it's not a visa,just a sticker in my passport saying I don't need a visa.The only thing is that I can't stay in Vietnam more than 90 days at a time,so I will have to leave every 90 days(very similar to the Non O here).It may well be that I can get some sort of residence visa when I am there,I will have to find out,or maybe someone there knows the answer to that?). more on visas by one poster: Update on the visa situation for VN. I visited the immigration office in Ha Noi last week and was told by the lady that says she issues residence visas that there is no such thing as a retirement visa for VN, you can only get a 6 month visa uless you are there for work or an investor. Also being married or dependent only entitles you to a 6 month visa that can be renewed continually. If you have a visa exemption that entitles you to a 3 month stay this can be renewed continually at a cost of $10 per renewal. This is what the Immigration Officer TOLD me and did not show any written regulations to support this. I know that one TV member has managed to get a 1 year visa after completion of his work in VN but guess that may have been with the help of some $$? Two posters added: Dalat is a really great place. Maybe a bit too quiet for me, but the fresh veggies. More: Dalat in Vietnam is at a higher altitude. No much to do there, though. And for sure it gets cold in the north of Vietnam. I was there a few years ago and canceled a trip up to the mountains as the roads were closed due to snow! Nha Trang is a place quite a few folks like. Some expats there as well. Nice beach. amazing! Vietnam, Ah, 2nd choice. A lot to contend with but beautiful and friendly. Many Many choices. Delat, my favorite. Hochimin, a nightmare, Hanoi, has it all. More: Do Son, near Hai Phong in North Viet Nam (talking about a coastal city similar to Pattaya with cool climate).

Indonesia: visa system is not that easy; Bali in expensive in some areas and not so expensive in others; Lombok has been mentioned as one other possibility; certainly Indonesia has thousands of islands; earthquake problem; More: Bali is an amazing island. I have not been to many "South Pacific" islands...but Bali is truly a paradise...as long as you avoid Kuta; another poster: I'd suggest Indonesia; anywhere near the coast on the Western side of Java, or perhaps Lombok. They do have a retirement visa program plus alternatives if you have a local contact / wife / sponsor; another poster: In regards to living in Bali, I would suggest the other side of the Island, Lovina is just gorgeous, black volcanic sand & prestine beaches, 5 minutes up the road if you prefer the tropical forest areas with views of the ocean then Kalibukbuk or Kaliasem.. There is an emergancy medical clinic, run by a Western Women.. And for convieniences that you will find in a big town, you have all the services you need from the Old Capital just 7km down the road Singrajah (think thats how you spell it) Lovina has lovely traditional style hotels & resturants & beach Warungs, fresh fruit sellers on the beach & internet warungs.. The beauty is that there is not many tourists here as most stay on the other side of island in Kuta etc.. There is also the Old Capital Airport for travel to connecting flights to Denpesar Airport.. Visa can be tricky, but there are great people to help you out.. Fantastic Expat Community all over the island with their own website forum site, just google it, aslo you can live quiet comfortably for under AU$1000.00 per month..

Lao PDR: Unsure if cheaper than Thailand; can be pleasant according to one poster; one poster added this about food: lovely breads and bakeries widely available and delicious

China: Kunming is the City of Eternal Spring (sounds like cool weather); China is huge and difficult to generalize about; Zhuhai across from Macau is a popular retirement destination (nice city in my opinion); more from a poster: China gives one Year Visa, multiple Entries when married. Hainan, Sanya is a wonderfull place, Prices, Rent, Food nearly same as LOS.Redwine much cheaper. Good and cheap flight connections. Like the Food :-)

Panama: Panama sensed an opportunity and developed a retiree incentive program that International Living calls the world's best. One retirement opt is based on showing a pension (or social security) of only 500 USD plus 100 USD per dependent (somebody check for accuracy). Retirees get discounts on travel, entertainment, shopping, services. But like Costa Rica so many have moved in that the country is having growing pains. Like Thailand most of the country is very hot and humid. The highland town of Boquette has a very nice climate and has been heavily promoted by International Living. And it's First World prices reflect that.

Argentina: Argentina became the single best bargain in Latin America, possibly the world, after their monetary crisis of 2002. Literally overnight after their peso was devalued costs were 75% less in American Dollars. Unfortunately while the exchange rate has hovered around 3.8 Pesos to the Dollar rampant inflation has brought costs back up close to where they were pre-crisis. However outside of Buenos Aires there are many choices with a good quality of life that are reasonably priced. And as one of the world's largest countries there's climate and scenery that suits about anyone. They have some nice beach towns but winter weather on the coast is pretty raw. Some cities popular with expats are Mendoza, Bariloche, Salta, and Cordoba. But Buenos Aires is the big draw for foreigners, world class city if you are an urbanite; great beef. A reminder about Argentina, there is no bank account method to qualify, you must have a permanent income, or no go for the retirement visa (maybe too expensive for the pensioners in question.....not sure); Many expats make border runs on tourist cards for many years. Argentina has no problem with that. Google Buenos Aires Expats Forum for tons of info. Many Argentines speak English. The Buenos Aires Herald is an excellent newspaper in English. Still, once there you'd want to take classes and get up to speed. I think the inflation issue is serious, but it may lead to another crisis. Might be worth moving there for a few years if the Peso is devalued again. Can always plan your next move while enjoying the best steaks in the world at near giveaway prices! According to one poster who has been there, there are reports of Argentina hassling people doing too many tourist card runs, it isn't predictable; Living there on tourists cards means you won't get a DNI number, you can never settle there very well without one (bank accounts, utilities, perhaps even health insurance (not sure)), in any case it is an important thing for many aspects of living there and a passport number doesn't replace it; Another great thing, overstays are not criminalized. People deal with it by flying out and paying a small fine, then returning and starting all over again; Expats mostly learn Spanish, yes it is easier than Thai, but there are functional reasons. For example, go the websites to do things there (businesses, etc.) and it is all Spanish, no translations. Unlike Thailand where English has almost become a semi-official second language. That definitely is not the case in Argentina. Of course there is some English media, and an English expat forum; Yes the peso can change, and the country has a recent history of economic volatility; If you do have a verifiable retirement income stream, the amount required is quite low, probably all US social security recipients can qualify, but all of the required money must be imported into a bank there annually; It certainly is a great place to visit, best steaks and excellent wine, very interesting people (very high per capita rates of both psychotherapy and cosmetic surgery! Argentina, between rising costs and hassles, isn't worth it (according to one poster). The hassles are endless red tape and systemic corruption. I've read many times that get away from the biggest cities and the people are some of the most genuinely friendly in the world. If the most beautiful women in the world is what you are after then Argentina is definitely in the running. Go to Google Images, search Argentinian babe, holy Toledo! Some other things about Argentina...97% European heritage. 50% Italian, 30% Spanish, substantial English, Irish, French, German, Welsh and other minorities. Argentines like to camp, campgrounds in most towns. You'll find cineplexes in most small cities and large cities have multiple choices. Most American movies play there, usually in English with Spanish subtitles unless childrens' movie. Actually American owned cineplexes are in most of Latin America now, especially Cinemark. Argentina is slightly smaller than India but only has about 44 million people. It's one of the few countries that produces everything it needs but is so poorly managed it struggles financially. The gov't confiscated the national retirement fund last year to pay for it's socialist programs. Buenos Aires has far and away the best bookstores in Latin America. It's a very literate population. COOL WEATHER: Bariloche es AWESOME! This place really does have it all. It is absolutely beautiful, the Andes provide an almost unbelievable backdrop for this mid-size ski town. Bariloche sits about 10-15 km from Cerro Catedral, which is actually the most prominent ski area in South America; has change of seasons

Chile: Chile is easily one of the most corruption free and stable countries in the Americas, and also one of the most amicable to foreigners looking to relocate or retire.; Puerto Monte in the south has is a European-like town overlooking the ocean and Andes Mountains; has change of seasons

Costa Rica: sort of the Thailand of Latin America. It was the top expat location but so many foreigners moved in that the government ended most of the great retiree incentives it offered. Crime and costs have soared. Still, many expats there but also many moved out, especially to Panama; Pensionado required income USD 1000/mo, and not so good - rentista USD 2500/mo--must show money was converted to colons; getting expensive; housing costs have doubled in top areas; now required to join country social security; armed robbery and carjacking now a daily event; Costa Rica is nice but the benefits are going down at a rapid rate

Mexico: gorgeous coastline overlooking Pacific; great food; one poster added the following: Favorite place is San Cristobal de las Casas, Chiapas, Mexico. Go to Google Images to see pictures. City is about 140,000, has multiplex playing American movies in English, best English language bookstore in Mexico, Walmart and Sam's club are opening stores there, has beautiful pedestrian only streets in the center, can be comfortable there on $700 a month, live very well on $1200. Unlike northern Mexico these days, San Cristobal is safe, with much to see and do. Single biggest drawback is wet season with alot of rain. But at 7000' overall it's mild most of the time, but nights can get chilly.

Colombia: gone a long way towards fixing it's problems. Terrorist groups have been marginalized to remote areas and drug cartels are no longer threatening stability. Bogota's north side looks like a prosperous American city. Security is everywhere, people go out there. The city that's attracting alot of expats is Medellin. It has a year'round spring like climate and is very clean; Colombia officially requires a substantial pension to live there, but doesn't enforce it. Expats are living comfortably there in smaller cities for much less than $1000 a month. Definitely a place you need Spanish though to truly enjoy it. I think the Group is called Colombia_Expats, not certain.

Chile: most expensive country in Latin America as well as it's most prosperous with excellent infrastructure; stunning views of the ocean and mountains; can get very cold is the south; lots of Europeans have already retired there in so-called "little Switzerland" areas

Ecuador: good retirement visa system; one city in particular, Cuenca, that is very beautiful, mild but cool climate, all the amenities; does have crime issues. Somebody mentioned Esmeraldes which is the most crime ridden area of the country. Cuenca in general is safe, using common sense; one poster said: Regarding Ecuador Visa, your best bet should be STUDENT VISA, which 's easy&cheaper and easy to be extended tax free, just start searching a spanish language school now in quito or other small town in ecuador. and obtaining that letter for admission to an Ecuadorian language school; another poster concerned about visas and crime: It is clear their retirement visa is easily obtainable if you have a provable pension of a "certain amount" which I think isn't much. However the other alternative options are very unclear to me. If anyone understands what they mean exactly on how to qualify without a pension, let us know.

http://www.ecuador.org/immigrantvisas.htm Also the dollarization there is attractive to Americans, no exchange rate worries.

I have begun to plan trips there a few times, but every time I do, reading about the horrible crime situation in Quito has put me off; once you arrive in quito, you'll have plenty of time to find the a resonably-priced agent which can arrange your retirement visa package hassel free; another poster: Last I read Ecuador will give permanent residency by either buying real estate worth at least $25,000 or depositing $25k in an Ecuadorean bank. That gives you all the rights of citizens except right to vote or hold office.

Uruguay: Google UruguayLiving.com for an excellent forum. Uruguay has low violent crime but serious property crime. You have to be vigilant to live there. A British couple went out to eat their first day there to take a break from unpacking. Came back 3 hrs later to find everything gone! It's a serious problem there. One place I like is Colonia del Sacramento, possibly the prettiest colonial town in South America and Portugese colonial to boot. Interesting thing is it's about 1.5 hrs by ferry across from Buenos Aires. It's where B.A. expats go to renew their tourist cards. One poster really sees it as a good alternative to Thailand.

Belize: according to one poster, it is the most expensive country in Central America (find hard to believe and would like more information on cost of living) and yet has minimal infrastructure. It's real draw is beach living and it's islands. However crime, especially in Belize City, is very high; great lobsters; scuba diving; Belize pegs it's money 2:1 to the American Dollar. That, along with most items are imported as little is produced locally, keeps things fairly expensive. If you live like a local, living in a simple wood house and eating mostly beans and rice and chicken you can live cheaply. That also means no air conditioning, no car, limited electricity. If you want an American lifestyle you'll pay alot, and still have to do without things like modern supermarkets. There are 2 paved 2 lane highways in the country, one north-south, one east-west.

Turkey: NEW TO THE LIST.......if you live there or have lived there, please gives us some input on the place.

Please add your first hand observations to the list above.........thanks.

[BEENTHEREDONETHAT]

Would like to point out that this event which was well publicized in Urugray, Occurred on November 9 2006, so I take it with a grain of salt. More recent news would seem appropriate.

Uruguay: Google UruguayLiving.com for an excellent forum. Uruguay has low violent crime but serious property crime. You have to be vigilant to live there. A British couple went out to eat their first day there to take a break from unpacking. Came back 3 hrs later to find everything gone! It's a serious problem there. One place I like is Colonia del Sacramento, possibly the prettiest colonial town in South America and Portugese colonial to boot. Interesting thing is it's about 1.5 hrs by ferry across from Buenos Aires. It's where B.A. expats go to renew their tourist cards. One poster really sees it as a good alternative to Thailand.

[craigt3365]

Would like to point out that this event which was well publicized in Urugray, Occurred on November 9 2006, so I take it with a grain of salt. More recent news would seem appropriate.

Uruguay: Google UruguayLiving.com for an excellent forum. Uruguay has low violent crime but serious property crime. You have to be vigilant to live there. A British couple went out to eat their first day there to take a break from unpacking. Came back 3 hrs later to find everything gone! It's a serious problem there. One place I like is Colonia del Sacramento, possibly the prettiest colonial town in South America and Portugese colonial to boot. Interesting thing is it's about 1.5 hrs by ferry across from Buenos Aires. It's where B.A. expats go to renew their tourist cards. One poster really sees it as a good alternative to Thailand.

I think property crime is a problem pretty much everywhere in SA and CA. After traveling there for years, bars on the windows are pretty much the norm for all buildings. Heck, a house was cleaned out in our village here in Baan Amphur a few months ago. Jumped the back wall, found out the owners forgot to turn on the alarm, drank all their booze, and took everything they could hoist over the fence. Met with a friend a few days ago and they told me of a break in at Phoenix. Happens here all the time also...

Colonia is a really cool city. Small, nice beaches (river beaches), cool cafes, but really crowded on weekends due to visitors from BA. Here are some pics. The pic with the fence is from the northern coast of Uruguay, the others are from Colonia.

[BEENTHEREDONETHAT]

Thanks for that Craig very informative. What is happening in the last photo of the people in the street? We are going to check it out in Sept. Strongly considering relocating there.

What is your opinion of Uruguay for a couple of, older than dirt, expats? Hit my use-by date a few years back but still going strong. Would like to live in a place that I have as much rights as the locals, and blend in a bit better than LOS.

My wife just objected to this post. She said she might be as old as dirt but not "older"

[craigt3365]

Thanks for that Craig very informative. What is happening in the last photo of the people in the street? We are going to check it out in Sept. Strongly considering relocating there.

What is your opinion of Uruguay for a couple of, older than dirt, expats? Hit my use-by date a few years back but still going strong. Would like to live in a place that I have as much rights as the locals, and blend in a bit better than LOS.

My wife just objected to this post. She said she might be as old as dirt but not "older"

She is right...definitely not older! When I was in Panama a few years ago, I did the canal trip with a tour group. The youngest was 70. Some were in their early 90's! Wheelchairs, crutches, walkers...absolutely fantastic. I hope when I am that age I can still travel...heck, just hope I can make it to 80!!!!!

The last pic is of them doing a pre-carnival dance to help raise money to buy costumes, etc. They go through the streets trying to collect a few bucks. We attended carnival in Montevideo. It was great.

Uruguay is easy to travel around and safe. I would avoid many areas of Montevideo at night, but that can be said of pretty much any major city in the world.

I would highly recommend checking out Argentina. BA, Mendoza, Cordoba, Salta, Bariloche, Patagonia...so many fantastic places to see. We spent 2 months there, including 2 weeks in Chile...barely scratched the surface. Of the 70 countries I have visited, Argentina ranks right at the top for me. But I do love steak and wine!

You HAVE to speak at least a little Spanish. Mandatory. Can't help you with the rights issues, but I have heard there are some visa problems. May have to do border runs? I would check out the expat websites for more info...also lonelyplanet.com and tripadvisor.com. Many, many Americans rent apartments in BA. We did so for a week and it was great. PM me if you want more details.

Here are some more pics. Us at carnival, typical BBQ, winery in Mendoza, two pics from our hotel rooms in Patagonia. Travel is easy, cheap and safe. I am so jealous!!! Enjoy!!!!

[Tejas]

Thanks for those great pics Craig3365 of Uruguay. I think rich people have discovered it.........I wonder about the cost of living there.

For some very useful comments see post #140 (too much info. there to update below).

For an interesting country comparison tool, see this link: http://www.prosperity.com/default.aspx

UPDATE from previous posts (see Uruguay and Argentina): Reminder: We are talking about alternative where you can "live well" on a monthly income of US$1000 - 1800. The focus is on low-middle income pensioners because these are the ones being hurt most by Thailand's crazy retirement system. Pensioners with big money can retire anywhere. To include them would mean to include all countries. Healthcare, retirement visa system, infrastructure are critical for pensioners (need more info. on these items below). Also, it would be nice to get comments about Western type comforts (food, malls, etc).

Cambodia: massive annual GNP growth, looks like Thailand; friendly people; English spoken widely; more expensive than Thailand but some say less expensive than Thailand; don't want to get sick there but close to Thailand so if it is not an emergency situation you can go to Thailand for medical care; infrastructure improving but long way to go); best visa situation in Asia and good Western food in PP and SR and SNVL. SNVL could, eventually, become the next small version of Pattaya after the international airport opens there.....lots of development plans for SNVL. Same water and sunset view as you find in Pattaya, but far fewer people.

Philippines: safe and unsafe areas; beautiful beaches; storm problem; most people speak English; easy visa system; some possible retirement destinations are Boracay, Dumaguete, Panglao Island, Puerto Galera (avoid Manilla); one poster said this: having lived in the Philippines for 7 yrs as an expat......I can add a few comments about the place. Baguio City is one of the most livable areas in the Phil. High elevation summer capitol with moderate temperatures....but is still prone to the many typhoons that aim at the Phil every year. Weather is never boring there. Down south, there are many nice areas (the islands) that have small expat communities. Camiguin, Cebu (outside the city), Dumagetti, Bohol.....7,100 island to choose from. some 'jewels in the China seas, but lots of ruined enviornment and poor and crumbling infrastructure. Friendly people....sometimes too friendly, but always smiling like Thais. Poverty is much more obvious and the local food is swill. most violent crime is confined to the cities. Local transport is basic, but cheap. roads are the worse i've ever seen and road manners are worse than here. Immigration is much easier than LOS and I think cheaper. One poster added: I spent a few weeks in Dumaguette...very nice town right on the ocean. Great diving just offshore! Philippines, why ? cost of living same as T, gals, same as T but speak English. health care, excellent world class in Manila, Ok in Cebu as well.

Favorite places, Dumaguette , Bantanyan Island, Forget that cesspool Angeles.

Malaysia: have a retirement program to attract foreigners that makes things a lot easier than it is in Thailand; you can own your own house; Malaysia would be easier for many expats (in terms of language, certain kinds of convenience, etc.) There are many more places than Penang to check out; one poster said this about Malaysia: Malaysia probably won't fall into your 1,000-1,800 criteria. For persons over 50 a deposit of $42,500 and monthly income of $2,850 (about 92,000 baht) is required. If you have a government pension of $2,850/mo or more then the deposit is not required. The official program MM2H (Malaysia My 2nd Home) is not bad if you can afford it. I have watched this program change every couple of months for the last two years - mostly good changes. You can import a car duty free (one time) oh, does not apply to motorcycles - sorry Harley. You can buy any number of homes but price has to be above $75,250 each. One poster just added: A couple of pages ago someone mentioned wanting somewhere cooler in south east Asia - how about Cameron Highlands in Malaysia? MM2H is a very good visa system (if you can afford it). 10 year renewable visa - you only need to go to Immigration every 10 years, slight improvement on 90 days here. The visa can be renewed every 10 years on the same terms that you went in on. I also like the fact that, whilst they ask you take out medical insurance, if you are unable to do so all you need to do is a get refusal letter from an insurance company, and they accept that. You can buy property freehold as a foreigner but currently upwards of RM 500,000 (5 million baht equiv). There are rumours that this might change (downwards). Rental prices are not too bad either outside of KL and Penang island. It's English speaking, the food's great. More on Malaysia: Cameron Highlands in Malaysia?" most beautiful area to live but unfortunately extremely poor infrastructure (think it is cool there).

Vietnam: long coastline; storm prone; developing rapidly; health care in Hanoi reported to be excellent but not good in hinterland; one poster said "not as friendly" as Thailand; one poster said no set visa policy for retirees (think need more info. here); Retirement visa - I don't think they have one, all retirees are said to be married to VN and get 5 year resident visas (5 year resident visa is a big improvement over Thailand); one poster said: ...will be moving to live in Vietnam in a few months.I would say from my previous visits there that Vietnam certainly fulfils most if not all of the above criteria.The only difficult thing might be to find one city or town that has them all.For instance Saigon has good medical facilities but it's relatively expensive for housing and its not cool or particularly clean.Hanoi has good medical facilities,but it is quite dirty,however for part of the year it's actually cold,it certainly was when we were there in January.I've just come back from a 6 week tour of Vietnam,from Hanoi/Ha Long Bay to Hue/Da Nang/Hoi An/Nha Trang /Saigon and the Mekong Delta inc Phu Quoc island.I've been many times before and am married to a Vietnamese girl,we have a 1 year old boy as well.Out of the main tourist areas it's cheaper than Thailand,certainly housing,food and drink.Unfortunately though the medical facilities out in those places leave a lot to be desired,but then transport in Vietnam is relatively good,and if you live reasonably close to a regional airport,its cheap and easy to fly to Saigon/Hanoi.I wouldn't say English is widely spoken, but in the main tourist areas a fair number speak it.It's a lot easier to learn Vietnamese than Thai,the alphabet is similar to ours, the words are shorter and although it is a tonal language,the version of Vietnamese written today was basically invented by the French last century.The visa situation is easier there(for me anyway).Because I am married to a Vietnamese,I have a 5 year visa EXEMPTION,it's not a visa,just a sticker in my passport saying I don't need a visa.The only thing is that I can't stay in Vietnam more than 90 days at a time,so I will have to leave every 90 days(very similar to the Non O here).It may well be that I can get some sort of residence visa when I am there,I will have to find out,or maybe someone there knows the answer to that?). more on visas by one poster: Update on the visa situation for VN. I visited the immigration office in Ha Noi last week and was told by the lady that says she issues residence visas that there is no such thing as a retirement visa for VN, you can only get a 6 month visa uless you are there for work or an investor. Also being married or dependent only entitles you to a 6 month visa that can be renewed continually. If you have a visa exemption that entitles you to a 3 month stay this can be renewed continually at a cost of $10 per renewal. This is what the Immigration Officer TOLD me and did not show any written regulations to support this. I know that one TV member has managed to get a 1 year visa after completion of his work in VN but guess that may have been with the help of some $$? Two posters added: Dalat is a really great place. Maybe a bit too quiet for me, but the fresh veggies. More: Dalat in Vietnam is at a higher altitude. No much to do there, though. And for sure it gets cold in the north of Vietnam. I was there a few years ago and canceled a trip up to the mountains as the roads were closed due to snow! Nha Trang is a place quite a few folks like. Some expats there as well. Nice beach. amazing! Vietnam, Ah, 2nd choice. A lot to contend with but beautiful and friendly. Many Many choices. Delat, my favorite. Hochimin, a nightmare, Hanoi, has it all. More: Do Son, near Hai Phong in North Viet Nam (talking about a coastal city similar to Pattaya with cool climate).

Indonesia: visa system is not that easy; Bali in expensive in some areas and not so expensive in others; Lombok has been mentioned as one other possibility; certainly Indonesia has thousands of islands; earthquake problem; More: Bali is an amazing island. I have not been to many "South Pacific" islands...but Bali is truly a paradise...as long as you avoid Kuta; another poster: I'd suggest Indonesia; anywhere near the coast on the Western side of Java, or perhaps Lombok. They do have a retirement visa program plus alternatives if you have a local contact / wife / sponsor; another poster: In regards to living in Bali, I would suggest the other side of the Island, Lovina is just gorgeous, black volcanic sand & prestine beaches, 5 minutes up the road if you prefer the tropical forest areas with views of the ocean then Kalibukbuk or Kaliasem.. There is an emergancy medical clinic, run by a Western Women.. And for convieniences that you will find in a big town, you have all the services you need from the Old Capital just 7km down the road Singrajah (think thats how you spell it) Lovina has lovely traditional style hotels & resturants & beach Warungs, fresh fruit sellers on the beach & internet warungs.. The beauty is that there is not many tourists here as most stay on the other side of island in Kuta etc.. There is also the Old Capital Airport for travel to connecting flights to Denpesar Airport.. Visa can be tricky, but there are great people to help you out.. Fantastic Expat Community all over the island with their own website forum site, just google it, aslo you can live quiet comfortably for under AU$1000.00 per month..

Lao PDR: Unsure if cheaper than Thailand; can be pleasant according to one poster; one poster added this about food: lovely breads and bakeries widely available and delicious

China: Kunming is the City of Eternal Spring (sounds like cool weather); China is huge and difficult to generalize about; Zhuhai across from Macau is a popular retirement destination (nice city in my opinion); more from a poster: China gives one Year Visa, multiple Entries when married. Hainan, Sanya is a wonderfull place, Prices, Rent, Food nearly same as LOS.Redwine much cheaper. Good and cheap flight connections. Like the Food :-)

Panama: Panama sensed an opportunity and developed a retiree incentive program that International Living calls the world's best. One retirement opt is based on showing a pension (or social security) of only 500 USD plus 100 USD per dependent (somebody check for accuracy). Retirees get discounts on travel, entertainment, shopping, services. But like Costa Rica so many have moved in that the country is having growing pains. Like Thailand most of the country is very hot and humid. The highland town of Boquette has a very nice climate and has been heavily promoted by International Living. And it's First World prices reflect that.

Argentina: Argentina became the single best bargain in Latin America, possibly the world, after their monetary crisis of 2002. Literally overnight after their peso was devalued costs were 75% less in American Dollars. Unfortunately while the exchange rate has hovered around 3.8 Pesos to the Dollar rampant inflation has brought costs back up close to where they were pre-crisis. However outside of Buenos Aires there are many choices with a good quality of life that are reasonably priced. And as one of the world's largest countries there's climate and scenery that suits about anyone. They have some nice beach towns but winter weather on the coast is pretty raw. Some cities popular with expats are Mendoza, Bariloche, Salta, and Cordoba. But Buenos Aires is the big draw for foreigners, world class city if you are an urbanite; great beef. A reminder about Argentina, there is no bank account method to qualify, you must have a permanent income, or no go for the retirement visa (maybe too expensive for the pensioners in question.....not sure); Many expats make border runs on tourist cards for many years. Argentina has no problem with that. Google Buenos Aires Expats Forum for tons of info. Many Argentines speak English. The Buenos Aires Herald is an excellent newspaper in English. Still, once there you'd want to take classes and get up to speed. I think the inflation issue is serious, but it may lead to another crisis. Might be worth moving there for a few years if the Peso is devalued again. Can always plan your next move while enjoying the best steaks in the world at near giveaway prices! According to one poster who has been there, there are reports of Argentina hassling people doing too many tourist card runs, it isn't predictable; Living there on tourists cards means you won't get a DNI number, you can never settle there very well without one (bank accounts, utilities, perhaps even health insurance (not sure)), in any case it is an important thing for many aspects of living there and a passport number doesn't replace it; Another great thing, overstays are not criminalized. People deal with it by flying out and paying a small fine, then returning and starting all over again; Expats mostly learn Spanish, yes it is easier than Thai, but there are functional reasons. For example, go the websites to do things there (businesses, etc.) and it is all Spanish, no translations. Unlike Thailand where English has almost become a semi-official second language. That definitely is not the case in Argentina. Of course there is some English media, and an English expat forum; Yes the peso can change, and the country has a recent history of economic volatility; If you do have a verifiable retirement income stream, the amount required is quite low, probably all US social security recipients can qualify, but all of the required money must be imported into a bank there annually; It certainly is a great place to visit, best steaks and excellent wine, very interesting people (very high per capita rates of both psychotherapy and cosmetic surgery! Argentina, between rising costs and hassles, isn't worth it (according to one poster). The hassles are endless red tape and systemic corruption. I've read many times that get away from the biggest cities and the people are some of the most genuinely friendly in the world. If the most beautiful women in the world is what you are after then Argentina is definitely in the running. Go to Google Images, search Argentinian babe, holy Toledo! Some other things about Argentina...97% European heritage. 50% Italian, 30% Spanish, substantial English, Irish, French, German, Welsh and other minorities. Argentines like to camp, campgrounds in most towns. You'll find cineplexes in most small cities and large cities have multiple choices. Most American movies play there, usually in English with Spanish subtitles unless childrens' movie. Actually American owned cineplexes are in most of Latin America now, especially Cinemark. Argentina is slightly smaller than India but only has about 44 million people. It's one of the few countries that produces everything it needs but is so poorly managed it struggles financially. The gov't confiscated the national retirement fund last year to pay for it's socialist programs. Buenos Aires has far and away the best bookstores in Latin America. It's a very literate population. COOL WEATHER: Bariloche es AWESOME! This place really does have it all. It is absolutely beautiful, the Andes provide an almost unbelievable backdrop for this mid-size ski town. Bariloche sits about 10-15 km from Cerro Catedral, which is actually the most prominent ski area in South America; has change of seasons. More: I would highly recommend checking out Argentina. BA, Mendoza, Cordoba, Salta, Bariloche, Patagonia...so many fantastic places to see. We spent 2 months there, including 2 weeks in Chile...barely scratched the surface. Of the 70 countries I have visited, Argentina ranks right at the top for me. But I do love steak and wine! You HAVE to speak at least a little Spanish. Mandatory. Can't help you with the rights issues, but I have heard there are some visa problems. May have to do border runs? I would check out the expat websites for more info...also lonelyplanet.com and tripadvisor.com. Many, many Americans rent apartments in BA.

Chile: Chile is easily one of the most corruption free and stable countries in the Americas, and also one of the most amicable to foreigners looking to relocate or retire.; Puerto Monte in the south has is a European-like town overlooking the ocean and Andes Mountains; has change of seasons

Costa Rica: sort of the Thailand of Latin America. It was the top expat location but so many foreigners moved in that the government ended most of the great retiree incentives it offered. Crime and costs have soared. Still, many expats there but also many moved out, especially to Panama; Pensionado required income USD 1000/mo, and not so good - rentista USD 2500/mo--must show money was converted to colons; getting expensive; housing costs have doubled in top areas; now required to join country social security; armed robbery and carjacking now a daily event; Costa Rica is nice but the benefits are going down at a rapid rate

Mexico: gorgeous coastline overlooking Pacific; great food; one poster added the following: Favorite place is San Cristobal de las Casas, Chiapas, Mexico. Go to Google Images to see pictures. City is about 140,000, has multiplex playing American movies in English, best English language bookstore in Mexico, Walmart and Sam's club are opening stores there, has beautiful pedestrian only streets in the center, can be comfortable there on $700 a month, live very well on $1200. Unlike northern Mexico these days, San Cristobal is safe, with much to see and do. Single biggest drawback is wet season with alot of rain. But at 7000' overall it's mild most of the time, but nights can get chilly.

Colombia: gone a long way towards fixing it's problems. Terrorist groups have been marginalized to remote areas and drug cartels are no longer threatening stability. Bogota's north side looks like a prosperous American city. Security is everywhere, people go out there. The city that's attracting alot of expats is Medellin. It has a year'round spring like climate and is very clean; Colombia officially requires a substantial pension to live there, but doesn't enforce it. Expats are living comfortably there in smaller cities for much less than $1000 a month. Definitely a place you need Spanish though to truly enjoy it. I think the Group is called Colombia_Expats, not certain.

Chile: most expensive country in Latin America as well as it's most prosperous with excellent infrastructure; stunning views of the ocean and mountains; can get very cold is the south; lots of Europeans have already retired there in so-called "little Switzerland" areas

Ecuador: good retirement visa system; one city in particular, Cuenca, that is very beautiful, mild but cool climate, all the amenities; does have crime issues. Somebody mentioned Esmeraldes which is the most crime ridden area of the country. Cuenca in general is safe, using common sense; one poster said: Regarding Ecuador Visa, your best bet should be STUDENT VISA, which 's easy&cheaper and easy to be extended tax free, just start searching a spanish language school now in quito or other small town in ecuador. and obtaining that letter for admission to an Ecuadorian language school; another poster concerned about visas and crime: It is clear their retirement visa is easily obtainable if you have a provable pension of a "certain amount" which I think isn't much. However the other alternative options are very unclear to me. If anyone understands what they mean exactly on how to qualify without a pension, let us know.

http://www.ecuador.org/immigrantvisas.htm Also the dollarization there is attractive to Americans, no exchange rate worries.

I have begun to plan trips there a few times, but every time I do, reading about the horrible crime situation in Quito has put me off; once you arrive in quito, you'll have plenty of time to find the a resonably-priced agent which can arrange your retirement visa package hassel free; another poster: Last I read Ecuador will give permanent residency by either buying real estate worth at least $25,000 or depositing $25k in an Ecuadorean bank. That gives you all the rights of citizens except right to vote or hold office.

Uruguay: Google UruguayLiving.com for an excellent forum. Uruguay has low violent crime but serious property crime. You have to be vigilant to live there. A British couple went out to eat their first day there to take a break from unpacking. Came back 3 hrs later to find everything gone! It's a serious problem there. One place I like is Colonia del Sacramento, possibly the prettiest colonial town in South America and Portugese colonial to boot. Interesting thing is it's about 1.5 hrs by ferry across from Buenos Aires. It's where B.A. expats go to renew their tourist cards. One poster really sees it as a good alternative to Thailand. One poster said: Uruguay is easy to travel around and safe. I would avoid many areas of Montevideo at night, but that can be said of pretty much any major city in the world. Colonia is a really cool city. Small, nice beaches (river beaches), cool cafes, but really crowded on weekends due to visitors from BA

Belize: according to one poster, it is the most expensive country in Central America (find hard to believe and would like more information on cost of living) and yet has minimal infrastructure. It's real draw is beach living and it's islands. However crime, especially in Belize City, is very high; great lobsters; scuba diving; Belize pegs it's money 2:1 to the American Dollar. That, along with most items are imported as little is produced locally, keeps things fairly expensive. If you live like a local, living in a simple wood house and eating mostly beans and rice and chicken you can live cheaply. That also means no air conditioning, no car, limited electricity. If you want an American lifestyle you'll pay alot, and still have to do without things like modern supermarkets. There are 2 paved 2 lane highways in the country, one north-south, one east-west.

Turkey: NEW TO THE LIST.......if you live there or have lived there, please gives us some input on the place.

Please add your first hand observations to the list above.........thanks.

[craigt3365]

Rich people have DEFINITELY found Punta del Este...it is crazy expensive...and full of HUGE yachts!

[BEENTHEREDONETHAT]

Have been checking into Uruguay and corresponding with an immigration attorney. So this info should be reasonably accurate.

To retire there, you must show a monthly income of $500USD a month. Pass an interpol check for police clearance. Pass a medical (sounds similar to LOS). But don't think you can live on $5oo a month.

You can apply for permanent residency with the right legalized paperwork. i.e. Birth certificate, marriage license, +the above. The Cedula (permanent residency) takes about a year but they issue a temporary one usually within a week.

Once you have been a permanent resident for 3yrs for a couple, 5 yrs for single =, you can apply for an Uruguayan passport. It is good for 5 years and renewable same as a local.

You can own property and buy houses etc, no problem. The cost of property is much like LOS some very expensive areas, like Punta De Este and some very inexpensive like inland property.

It is a meat and potato diet much like Argentina and some of the best beef in the world. The people are friendly and mostly originating in Europe.

The down side is the service is consistently terrible and to accomplish anything is very time consuming. They have a 23% VAT on most things so anything made out side of the country is very expensive and much of it is junk from China. But if you move there and get a cedula you can ship your household goods duty free as long as they are at least a year old. You cannot include a car in that. You need to learn Spanish but it is a piece of cake compared to Thai. The quality of work sucks. People bitch a lot about the drivers. But petro and cars are expensive so somewhat limited.

Once you get your cedula it is done for three years then must be renewed same as locals. You can travel in most of South and Central America using your cedula rather than a passport.

[craigt3365]

I corresponded with a couple a few years ago who just moved to Uruguay. Met them on Lonely Planet. They said they got a place inland and north of Montevideo quite cheap. Prices are quite a bit higher than Argentina. Veggies are not part of the main diet...except for a garden salad...

We drove from MV to almost the border with Brazil. Roads were great. Never really had any issues with drivers. Not many cars for sure. I speak Spanish a fair amount...but just can not learn Thai! Very difficult for me....

[Naam]

oops! if forgot to mention a phantastic place for retirees:

Königswusterhausen, Germany

As I've noticed before you seem to have a weird sense of humour - not at all funny or helpful in most cases but I guess it amuses you. Personally I don't think that posting silly misleading nonsense is funny....

and what do you personally think what i personally think of your comments? just take a wild guess

[Tejas]

You really make Uruguay look like a very attractive alternative to Thailand. The US$500 per month should make a lot of low income pensioners happy. Uruguay also has four seasons..........some of us are sick and tired of HOT, HOT, HOT.

MODERATOR, PLEASE, IF YOU CAN, DELETE ALL POST PRIOR TO THIS ONE EXCEPT POST # 140 AND THE ORIGINAL POST. I HAVE SUMMARIZED EVERYTHING TO THIS POINT. I DON'T THINK OTHER POSTERS WILL MIND AND IT WILL SAVE SPACE.

For some very useful comments see post #140 (too much info. there to update below).

For an interesting country comparison tool, see this link: http://www.prosperity.com/default.aspx

UPDATE from previous posts (see Uruguay): Reminder: We are talking about alternative where you can "live well" on a monthly income of US$1000 - 1800. The focus is on low-middle income pensioners because these are the ones being hurt most by Thailand's crazy retirement system. Pensioners with big money can retire anywhere. To include them would mean to include all countries. Healthcare, retirement visa system, infrastructure are critical for pensioners (need more info. on these items below). Also, it would be nice to get comments about Western type comforts (food, malls, etc).

Cambodia: massive annual GNP growth, looks like Thailand; friendly people; English spoken widely; more expensive than Thailand but some say less expensive than Thailand; don't want to get sick there but close to Thailand so if it is not an emergency situation you can go to Thailand for medical care; infrastructure improving but long way to go); best visa situation in Asia and good Western food in PP and SR and SNVL. SNVL could, eventually, become the next small version of Pattaya after the international airport opens there.....lots of development plans for SNVL. Same water and sunset view as you find in Pattaya, but far fewer people.

Philippines: safe and unsafe areas; beautiful beaches; storm problem; most people speak English; easy visa system; some possible retirement destinations are Boracay, Dumaguete, Panglao Island, Puerto Galera (avoid Manilla); one poster said this: having lived in the Philippines for 7 yrs as an expat......I can add a few comments about the place. Baguio City is one of the most livable areas in the Phil. High elevation summer capitol with moderate temperatures....but is still prone to the many typhoons that aim at the Phil every year. Weather is never boring there. Down south, there are many nice areas (the islands) that have small expat communities. Camiguin, Cebu (outside the city), Dumagetti, Bohol.....7,100 island to choose from. some 'jewels in the China seas, but lots of ruined enviornment and poor and crumbling infrastructure. Friendly people....sometimes too friendly, but always smiling like Thais. Poverty is much more obvious and the local food is swill. most violent crime is confined to the cities. Local transport is basic, but cheap. roads are the worse i've ever seen and road manners are worse than here. Immigration is much easier than LOS and I think cheaper. One poster added: I spent a few weeks in Dumaguette...very nice town right on the ocean. Great diving just offshore! Philippines, why ? cost of living same as T, gals, same as T but speak English. health care, excellent world class in Manila, Ok in Cebu as well.

Favorite places, Dumaguette , Bantanyan Island, Forget that cesspool Angeles.

Malaysia: have a retirement program to attract foreigners that makes things a lot easier than it is in Thailand; you can own your own house; Malaysia would be easier for many expats (in terms of language, certain kinds of convenience, etc.) There are many more places than Penang to check out; one poster said this about Malaysia: Malaysia probably won't fall into your 1,000-1,800 criteria. For persons over 50 a deposit of $42,500 and monthly income of $2,850 (about 92,000 baht) is required. If you have a government pension of $2,850/mo or more then the deposit is not required. The official program MM2H (Malaysia My 2nd Home) is not bad if you can afford it. I have watched this program change every couple of months for the last two years - mostly good changes. You can import a car duty free (one time) oh, does not apply to motorcycles - sorry Harley. You can buy any number of homes but price has to be above $75,250 each. One poster just added: A couple of pages ago someone mentioned wanting somewhere cooler in south east Asia - how about Cameron Highlands in Malaysia? MM2H is a very good visa system (if you can afford it). 10 year renewable visa - you only need to go to Immigration every 10 years, slight improvement on 90 days here. The visa can be renewed every 10 years on the same terms that you went in on. I also like the fact that, whilst they ask you take out medical insurance, if you are unable to do so all you need to do is a get refusal letter from an insurance company, and they accept that. You can buy property freehold as a foreigner but currently upwards of RM 500,000 (5 million baht equiv). There are rumours that this might change (downwards). Rental prices are not too bad either outside of KL and Penang island. It's English speaking, the food's great. More on Malaysia: Cameron Highlands in Malaysia?" most beautiful area to live but unfortunately extremely poor infrastructure (think it is cool there).

Vietnam: long coastline; storm prone; developing rapidly; health care in Hanoi reported to be excellent but not good in hinterland; one poster said "not as friendly" as Thailand; one poster said no set visa policy for retirees (think need more info. here); Retirement visa - I don't think they have one, all retirees are said to be married to VN and get 5 year resident visas (5 year resident visa is a big improvement over Thailand); one poster said: ...will be moving to live in Vietnam in a few months.I would say from my previous visits there that Vietnam certainly fulfils most if not all of the above criteria.The only difficult thing might be to find one city or town that has them all.For instance Saigon has good medical facilities but it's relatively expensive for housing and its not cool or particularly clean.Hanoi has good medical facilities,but it is quite dirty,however for part of the year it's actually cold,it certainly was when we were there in January.I've just come back from a 6 week tour of Vietnam,from Hanoi/Ha Long Bay to Hue/Da Nang/Hoi An/Nha Trang /Saigon and the Mekong Delta inc Phu Quoc island.I've been many times before and am married to a Vietnamese girl,we have a 1 year old boy as well.Out of the main tourist areas it's cheaper than Thailand,certainly housing,food and drink.Unfortunately though the medical facilities out in those places leave a lot to be desired,but then transport in Vietnam is relatively good,and if you live reasonably close to a regional airport,its cheap and easy to fly to Saigon/Hanoi.I wouldn't say English is widely spoken, but in the main tourist areas a fair number speak it.It's a lot easier to learn Vietnamese than Thai,the alphabet is similar to ours, the words are shorter and although it is a tonal language,the version of Vietnamese written today was basically invented by the French last century.The visa situation is easier there(for me anyway).Because I am married to a Vietnamese,I have a 5 year visa EXEMPTION,it's not a visa,just a sticker in my passport saying I don't need a visa.The only thing is that I can't stay in Vietnam more than 90 days at a time,so I will have to leave every 90 days(very similar to the Non O here).It may well be that I can get some sort of residence visa when I am there,I will have to find out,or maybe someone there knows the answer to that?). more on visas by one poster: Update on the visa situation for VN. I visited the immigration office in Ha Noi last week and was told by the lady that says she issues residence visas that there is no such thing as a retirement visa for VN, you can only get a 6 month visa uless you are there for work or an investor. Also being married or dependent only entitles you to a 6 month visa that can be renewed continually. If you have a visa exemption that entitles you to a 3 month stay this can be renewed continually at a cost of $10 per renewal. This is what the Immigration Officer TOLD me and did not show any written regulations to support this. I know that one TV member has managed to get a 1 year visa after completion of his work in VN but guess that may have been with the help of some $$? Two posters added: Dalat is a really great place. Maybe a bit too quiet for me, but the fresh veggies. More: Dalat in Vietnam is at a higher altitude. No much to do there, though. And for sure it gets cold in the north of Vietnam. I was there a few years ago and canceled a trip up to the mountains as the roads were closed due to snow! Nha Trang is a place quite a few folks like. Some expats there as well. Nice beach. amazing! Vietnam, Ah, 2nd choice. A lot to contend with but beautiful and friendly. Many Many choices. Delat, my favorite. Hochimin, a nightmare, Hanoi, has it all. More: Do Son, near Hai Phong in North Viet Nam (talking about a coastal city similar to Pattaya with cool climate).

Indonesia: visa system is not that easy; Bali in expensive in some areas and not so expensive in others; Lombok has been mentioned as one other possibility; certainly Indonesia has thousands of islands; earthquake problem; More: Bali is an amazing island. I have not been to many "South Pacific" islands...but Bali is truly a paradise...as long as you avoid Kuta; another poster: I'd suggest Indonesia; anywhere near the coast on the Western side of Java, or perhaps Lombok. They do have a retirement visa program plus alternatives if you have a local contact / wife / sponsor; another poster: In regards to living in Bali, I would suggest the other side of the Island, Lovina is just gorgeous, black volcanic sand & prestine beaches, 5 minutes up the road if you prefer the tropical forest areas with views of the ocean then Kalibukbuk or Kaliasem.. There is an emergancy medical clinic, run by a Western Women.. And for convieniences that you will find in a big town, you have all the services you need from the Old Capital just 7km down the road Singrajah (think thats how you spell it) Lovina has lovely traditional style hotels & resturants & beach Warungs, fresh fruit sellers on the beach & internet warungs.. The beauty is that there is not many tourists here as most stay on the other side of island in Kuta etc.. There is also the Old Capital Airport for travel to connecting flights to Denpesar Airport.. Visa can be tricky, but there are great people to help you out.. Fantastic Expat Community all over the island with their own website forum site, just google it, aslo you can live quiet comfortably for under AU$1000.00 per month..

Lao PDR: Unsure if cheaper than Thailand; can be pleasant according to one poster; one poster added this about food: lovely breads and bakeries widely available and delicious

China: Kunming is the City of Eternal Spring (sounds like cool weather); China is huge and difficult to generalize about; Zhuhai across from Macau is a popular retirement destination (nice city in my opinion); more from a poster: China gives one Year Visa, multiple Entries when married. Hainan, Sanya is a wonderfull place, Prices, Rent, Food nearly same as LOS.Redwine much cheaper. Good and cheap flight connections. Like the Food :-)

Panama: Panama sensed an opportunity and developed a retiree incentive program that International Living calls the world's best. One retirement opt is based on showing a pension (or social security) of only 500 USD plus 100 USD per dependent (somebody check for accuracy). Retirees get discounts on travel, entertainment, shopping, services. But like Costa Rica so many have moved in that the country is having growing pains. Like Thailand most of the country is very hot and humid. The highland town of Boquette has a very nice climate and has been heavily promoted by International Living. And it's First World prices reflect that.

Argentina: Argentina became the single best bargain in Latin America, possibly the world, after their monetary crisis of 2002. Literally overnight after their peso was devalued costs were 75% less in American Dollars. Unfortunately while the exchange rate has hovered around 3.8 Pesos to the Dollar rampant inflation has brought costs back up close to where they were pre-crisis. However outside of Buenos Aires there are many choices with a good quality of life that are reasonably priced. And as one of the world's largest countries there's climate and scenery that suits about anyone. They have some nice beach towns but winter weather on the coast is pretty raw. Some cities popular with expats are Mendoza, Bariloche, Salta, and Cordoba. But Buenos Aires is the big draw for foreigners, world class city if you are an urbanite; great beef. A reminder about Argentina, there is no bank account method to qualify, you must have a permanent income, or no go for the retirement visa (maybe too expensive for the pensioners in question.....not sure); Many expats make border runs on tourist cards for many years. Argentina has no problem with that. Google Buenos Aires Expats Forum for tons of info. Many Argentines speak English. The Buenos Aires Herald is an excellent newspaper in English. Still, once there you'd want to take classes and get up to speed. I think the inflation issue is serious, but it may lead to another crisis. Might be worth moving there for a few years if the Peso is devalued again. Can always plan your next move while enjoying the best steaks in the world at near giveaway prices! According to one poster who has been there, there are reports of Argentina hassling people doing too many tourist card runs, it isn't predictable; Living there on tourists cards means you won't get a DNI number, you can never settle there very well without one (bank accounts, utilities, perhaps even health insurance (not sure)), in any case it is an important thing for many aspects of living there and a passport number doesn't replace it; Another great thing, overstays are not criminalized. People deal with it by flying out and paying a small fine, then returning and starting all over again; Expats mostly learn Spanish, yes it is easier than Thai, but there are functional reasons. For example, go the websites to do things there (businesses, etc.) and it is all Spanish, no translations. Unlike Thailand where English has almost become a semi-official second language. That definitely is not the case in Argentina. Of course there is some English media, and an English expat forum; Yes the peso can change, and the country has a recent history of economic volatility; If you do have a verifiable retirement income stream, the amount required is quite low, probably all US social security recipients can qualify, but all of the required money must be imported into a bank there annually; It certainly is a great place to visit, best steaks and excellent wine, very interesting people (very high per capita rates of both psychotherapy and cosmetic surgery! Argentina, between rising costs and hassles, isn't worth it (according to one poster). The hassles are endless red tape and systemic corruption. I've read many times that get away from the biggest cities and the people are some of the most genuinely friendly in the world. If the most beautiful women in the world is what you are after then Argentina is definitely in the running. Go to Google Images, search Argentinian babe, holy Toledo! Some other things about Argentina...97% European heritage. 50% Italian, 30% Spanish, substantial English, Irish, French, German, Welsh and other minorities. Argentines like to camp, campgrounds in most towns. You'll find cineplexes in most small cities and large cities have multiple choices. Most American movies play there, usually in English with Spanish subtitles unless childrens' movie. Actually American owned cineplexes are in most of Latin America now, especially Cinemark. Argentina is slightly smaller than India but only has about 44 million people. It's one of the few countries that produces everything it needs but is so poorly managed it struggles financially. The gov't confiscated the national retirement fund last year to pay for it's socialist programs. Buenos Aires has far and away the best bookstores in Latin America. It's a very literate population. COOL WEATHER: Bariloche es AWESOME! This place really does have it all. It is absolutely beautiful, the Andes provide an almost unbelievable backdrop for this mid-size ski town. Bariloche sits about 10-15 km from Cerro Catedral, which is actually the most prominent ski area in South America; has change of seasons. More: I would highly recommend checking out Argentina. BA, Mendoza, Cordoba, Salta, Bariloche, Patagonia...so many fantastic places to see. We spent 2 months there, including 2 weeks in Chile...barely scratched the surface. Of the 70 countries I have visited, Argentina ranks right at the top for me. But I do love steak and wine! You HAVE to speak at least a little Spanish. Mandatory. Can't help you with the rights issues, but I have heard there are some visa problems. May have to do border runs? I would check out the expat websites for more info...also lonelyplanet.com and tripadvisor.com. Many, many Americans rent apartments in BA.

Chile: Chile is easily one of the most corruption free and stable countries in the Americas, and also one of the most amicable to foreigners looking to relocate or retire.; Puerto Monte in the south has is a European-like town overlooking the ocean and Andes Mountains; has change of seasons

Costa Rica: sort of the Thailand of Latin America. It was the top expat location but so many foreigners moved in that the government ended most of the great retiree incentives it offered. Crime and costs have soared. Still, many expats there but also many moved out, especially to Panama; Pensionado required income USD 1000/mo, and not so good - rentista USD 2500/mo--must show money was converted to colons; getting expensive; housing costs have doubled in top areas; now required to join country social security; armed robbery and carjacking now a daily event; Costa Rica is nice but the benefits are going down at a rapid rate

Mexico: gorgeous coastline overlooking Pacific; great food; one poster added the following: Favorite place is San Cristobal de las Casas, Chiapas, Mexico. Go to Google Images to see pictures. City is about 140,000, has multiplex playing American movies in English, best English language bookstore in Mexico, Walmart and Sam's club are opening stores there, has beautiful pedestrian only streets in the center, can be comfortable there on $700 a month, live very well on $1200. Unlike northern Mexico these days, San Cristobal is safe, with much to see and do. Single biggest drawback is wet season with alot of rain. But at 7000' overall it's mild most of the time, but nights can get chilly.

Colombia: gone a long way towards fixing it's problems. Terrorist groups have been marginalized to remote areas and drug cartels are no longer threatening stability. Bogota's north side looks like a prosperous American city. Security is everywhere, people go out there. The city that's attracting alot of expats is Medellin. It has a year'round spring like climate and is very clean; Colombia officially requires a substantial pension to live there, but doesn't enforce it. Expats are living comfortably there in smaller cities for much less than $1000 a month. Definitely a place you need Spanish though to truly enjoy it. I think the Group is called Colombia_Expats, not certain.

Chile: most expensive country in Latin America as well as it's most prosperous with excellent infrastructure; stunning views of the ocean and mountains; can get very cold is the south; lots of Europeans have already retired there in so-called "little Switzerland" areas

Ecuador: good retirement visa system; one city in particular, Cuenca, that is very beautiful, mild but cool climate, all the amenities; does have crime issues. Somebody mentioned Esmeraldes which is the most crime ridden area of the country. Cuenca in general is safe, using common sense; one poster said: Regarding Ecuador Visa, your best bet should be STUDENT VISA, which 's easy&cheaper and easy to be extended tax free, just start searching a spanish language school now in quito or other small town in ecuador. and obtaining that letter for admission to an Ecuadorian language school; another poster concerned about visas and crime: It is clear their retirement visa is easily obtainable if you have a provable pension of a "certain amount" which I think isn't much. However the other alternative options are very unclear to me. If anyone understands what they mean exactly on how to qualify without a pension, let us know.

http://www.ecuador.org/immigrantvisas.htm Also the dollarization there is attractive to Americans, no exchange rate worries.

I have begun to plan trips there a few times, but every time I do, reading about the horrible crime situation in Quito has put me off; once you arrive in quito, you'll have plenty of time to find the a resonably-priced agent which can arrange your retirement visa package hassel free; another poster: Last I read Ecuador will give permanent residency by either buying real estate worth at least $25,000 or depositing $25k in an Ecuadorean bank. That gives you all the rights of citizens except right to vote or hold office.

Uruguay: Google UruguayLiving.com for an excellent forum. Uruguay has low violent crime but serious property crime. You have to be vigilant to live there. A British couple went out to eat their first day there to take a break from unpacking. Came back 3 hrs later to find everything gone! It's a serious problem there. One place I like is Colonia del Sacramento, possibly the prettiest colonial town in South America and Portugese colonial to boot. Interesting thing is it's about 1.5 hrs by ferry across from Buenos Aires. It's where B.A. expats go to renew their tourist cards. One poster really sees it as a good alternative to Thailand. One poster said: Uruguay is easy to travel around and safe. I would avoid many areas of Montevideo at night, but that can be said of pretty much any major city in the world. Colonia is a really cool city. Small, nice beaches (river beaches), cool cafes, but really crowded on weekends due to visitors from BA. More: I corresponded with a couple a few years ago who just moved to Uruguay. Met them on Lonely Planet. They said they got a place inland and north of Montevideo quite cheap. Prices are quite a bit higher than Argentina. Veggies are not part of the main diet...except for a garden salad...We drove from MV to almost the border with Brazil. Roads were great. MOre: Have been checking into Uruguay and corresponding with an immigration attorney. So this info should be reasonably accurate. To retire there, you must show a monthly income of $500USD a month. Pass an interpol check for police clearance. Pass a medical (sounds similar to LOS). But don't think you can live on $5oo a month. You can apply for permanent residency with the right legalized paperwork. i.e. Birth certificate, marriage license, +the above. The Cedula (permanent residency) takes about a year but they issue a temporary one usually within a week. Once you have been a permanent resident for 3yrs for a couple, 5 yrs for single =, you can apply for an Uruguayan passport. It is good for 5 years and renewable same as a local.

You can own property and buy houses etc, no problem. The cost of property is much like LOS some very expensive areas, like Punta De Este and some very inexpensive like inland property. It is a meat and potato diet much like Argentina and some of the best beef in the world. The people are friendly and mostly originating in Europe. The down side is the service is consistently terrible and to accomplish anything is very time consuming. They have a 23% VAT on most things so anything made out side of the country is very expensive and much of it is junk from China. But if you move there and get a cedula you can ship your household goods duty free as long as they are at least a year old. You cannot include a car in that. You need to learn Spanish but it is a piece of cake compared to Thai. The quality of work sucks. People bitch a lot about the drivers. But petro and cars are expensive so somewhat limited. Once you get your cedula it is done for three years then must be renewed same as locals. You can travel in most of South and Central America using your cedula rather than a passport.

Belize: according to one poster, it is the most expensive country in Central America (find hard to believe and would like more information on cost of living) and yet has minimal infrastructure. It's real draw is beach living and it's islands. However crime, especially in Belize City, is very high; great lobsters; scuba diving; Belize pegs it's money 2:1 to the American Dollar. That, along with most items are imported as little is produced locally, keeps things fairly expensive. If you live like a local, living in a simple wood house and eating mostly beans and rice and chicken you can live cheaply. That also means no air conditioning, no car, limited electricity. If you want an American lifestyle you'll pay alot, and still have to do without things like modern supermarkets. There are 2 paved 2 lane highways in the country, one north-south, one east-west.

Turkey: NEW TO THE LIST.......if you live there or have lived there, please gives us some input on the place.

Please add your first hand observations to the list above.........thanks.

[LaoPo]

In regards to living in Bali, I would suggest the other side of the Island, Lovina is just gorgeous, black volcanic sand & prestine beaches, 5 minutes up the road if you prefer the tropical forest areas with views of the ocean then Kalibukbuk or Kaliasem.. There is an emergancy medical clinic, run by a Western Women.. And for convieniences that you will find in a big town, you have all the services you need from the Old Capital just 7km down the road Singrajah (think thats how you spell it) Lovina has lovely traditional style hotels & resturants & beach Warungs, fresh fruit sellers on the beach & internet warungs.. The beauty is that there is not many tourists here as most stay on the other side of island in Kuta etc..

There is also the Old Capital Airport for travel to connecting flights to Denpesar Airport..

Visa can be tricky, but there are great people to help you out.. Fantastic Expat Community all over the island with their own website forum site, just google it, aslo you can live quiet comfortably for under AU$1000.00 per month.. Hope this helps!!

I know there is a very small airstrip in the North of Bali, west of Singaraja, mainly used by some small (sports) aircrafts; but are they now flying to the International Airport Ngurah Rai vv ?

Can you give us a link ?

LaoPo

[Jerrytheyoung]

Langkawi- Malaysia

At 1hour and half from Satun by boat.

international Airport

995 of the population speak English

Nice beaches (Pantai Cenang)

Duty free island

[Lopburi99]

Nobody yet mentioned this about Panama: The official paper currency is the U.S. dollar, which is accepted everywhere at the rate of One Panamanian Balboa = US$1.

After seeing my minimal monthly pension steadily decline, decline, decline since I've been here due to THB/USD rates, wherever I live next won't offer that aggravation.

I like the sound of that cool Panamanian city in the mountains (Boquette). Can't stand the heat here. When I return to the States in June I will try the RV nomad thing for awhile, chasing the good weather like my brother has been doing for years. I believe I can live ok within my $2K/mo SSA pension, plus I'll have Medicare coverage. If I get bored or antsy again, Panama will be my next destination. Not too far to travel back and forth to the U.S. for visits, in addition to the advantages already mentioned.

[ray23]

I researched most of what you are talking about, before coming here. I actually had former in laws in the P.I. and would have been welcome I didn't screw up she did. But, there is something about guards with shotgun in front of 7-11's that turned me off.

So I settled for Issan went through a tough learning curve and have no wish to do it again some where else. Sometimes it is difficult to adapt but once you have it's home.

Just curious what bother you about Thailand that you don't think you find in the next place?

You are asking a question that I most have asked myself a thousand times before. I didn't act on it and today I'm happy I didn't.

Sometimes just a change of pace can calm things down for me that is Motorcycle touring. Trying to stay away from the tourist destinations and meeting very nice people during the escape. Maybe it's just me but I find refreshing. within a few days home sounds great and I start heading back that way

[craigt3365]

Tejas: I wouldn't say Uruguay has 4 seasons. I don't think it snows there...for sure not near the beach. I do believe the same is true with most of Argentina and Chile...except in those incredibly large and beautiful mountains! But it has 3 seasons for sure. I was there in the spring. Water was a bit too cold for me to want to swim in the ocean. A bit cool at night, but perfect during the day. This was on the beach North of Montevideo.

Jerrytheyoung: Isn't Langkawi expensive? I have never been, but that is what I heard...especially for housing?

lopburi99: We did discuss Panama. I spent a month there. It's a bit like Mexico. Spanish is a necessity, property crime is rampant, petty crime in Panama City is on the rise, and property prices everywhere are skyrocketing...due to so many American investors/flippers. I didn't like Panama City at all. Boquette is really beautiful...but nothing to do there...and a very small expat community. Rains a lot also. But, it is definitely worth a visit. Go for at least a month...and don't forget to visit Bocas! Especially one of the out islands.

We did the RV thing for several years. My parents were full timers for over 10. It is for sure a cheap lifestyle, and can be really fun. Relaxing, chase the good weather, meet LOTS of great friends. We still talk about all the fun we had doing it...and will probably go back to it later in life. Try rvforum.net for great advise...and to meet great people.

ray23: that is exactly what turned me off about the PI. Everywhere you went there were guards with shotguns. And if you looked closely, quite a few folks had hidden hand guns. Crazy. One good thing about Thailand is it being a great hub to explore this part of the world. There is so much to see and do within a few hours by plane.

[shiva2009]

There is also the Old Capital Airport for travel to connecting flights to Denpesar Airport..

I know there is a very small airstrip in the North of Bali, west of Singaraja, mainly used by some small (sports) aircrafts; but are they now flying to the International Airport Ngurah Rai vv ?

Can you give us a link ?

LaoPo

I'll try to find the link for the Singaraja Airport, they do run domestic air buses between the Singaraja & Denpesar,to connect to other Indo flights & Interntional Flights...

Or drive from Denpasar over the mountain ridges is about a 3.5hr drive on a good day or drive around the costline through Candiasa etc in about the 3hr mark...

Singaraja, was the Old Dutch Capital of Bali, kind of reminds me of Chiang Mai really, but when tourism took off in the late 70's & developement around Kuta, Candiasa, Jimabaran Bay etc Indonesian Government deemed Denpesar a more accessible desitnation for both business & tourism.

Ubud is gorgeous, has a great Ex-Pat community aswell, & is about 2hrs drive from Kuta/Legian.. Great Artistic community, but maybe on the higher $$ end of retirement, although there is are villages near not so expensive...

To be honest, I love Chaing Mai/Chiang Rai, would love to retire to Chiang Mai & use this as a home base to travel to Vietnam/Laos/Cambodia/India/ of course stopping in on Bali on the way back to Vic/Oz home..

And just spend up to 3 months in each place, having children here in Oz (hopefuly grandchildren in the future) we will retain our 10Acre bush block in Rural Vic, home to our 1920's Red rattler Train Carriage Cottage as a home base whilst where here in Oz!!

That's the plan (fantasy/dream/goal)....

Will get back to you with Airport Info..

Thankyou to everyone who has contributed to this thread, it has been very helpful!!