Alternative Retirement Destinations For Expats (other Than Thailand)

[LaoPo]

There is also the Old Capital Airport for travel to connecting flights to Denpesar Airport..

I know there is a very small airstrip in the North of Bali, west of Singaraja, mainly used by some small (sports) aircrafts; but are they now flying to the International Airport Ngurah Rai vv ?

Can you give us a link ?

LaoPo

I'll try to find the link for the Singaraja Airport, they do run domestic air buses between the Singaraja & Denpesar,to connect to other Indo flights & Interntional Flights...

I don't think there's a commuter (by air) between Singaraja and Ngurah Rai/Denpasar International Airport.

Buses yes, but no connection via air. Wouldn't pay off I think since the distance is too short.

LaoPo

[moe666]

Having read most of the post on this thread it still looks like Thailand is still on top. When you start breaking down the so called easy visa rules of other countries not so easy, high crime rates, bad food, corruption, and weather Thailand not so bad after all except in the minds of some.

In the end no place is perfect there will be problems and issues were ever you go.

[moe666]

I guess we all missed it if you are planning on retireing in Thailand on $1000-$1800 a month unless you have the 800,000 in the bank you will not qualify. At the exchange rate of 32baht to the dollar you need over $2000 a month

[cobra]

Some assert Cuba will be open within five years.

The Las Vegas of the America's could return.

... oh Ricky, I think you got some spaining to do, ...

Infrastructure would catch up fast as soon as money started flowing in,

Clean beaches, attractive locals, good fishing,

and apparently some guy named Hemingway thought it was fairly nice also.

[Tejas]

Having read most of the post on this thread it still looks like Thailand is still on top. When you start breaking down the so called easy visa rules of other countries not so easy, high crime rates, bad food, corruption, and weather Thailand not so bad after all except in the minds of some.

In the end no place is perfect there will be problems and issues were ever you go.

IMHO, I would say Uruguay is on top..........I am now fascinated by the place.

By the way, I am tired of doing the summary.

I am the OP. I have been updating over and over again (I think very useful but.........getting tired doing it).

Will another person please volunteer to take over. Thanks.

[BEENTHEREDONETHAT]

Tejas for a good place to get info on Uruguay go to sociedadsouthron friendly and helpful.

[craigt3365]

Some assert Cuba will be open within five years.

The Las Vegas of the America's could return.

... oh Ricky, I think you got some spaining to do, ...

Infrastructure would catch up fast as soon as money started flowing in,

Clean beaches, attractive locals, good fishing,

and apparently some guy named Hemingway thought it was fairly nice also.

That's a sad thought. It is such an amazing place right now. Like stepping into a time capsule. Old cars, crumbling old French colonial buildings, NO McDonalds or 7/11...fantastic. I feel sorry for the people as they are truly poor AND oppressed. So it would be good for them, but a loss in terms of a tourist destination.

I attached a few pics. One is of Floridita bar/restaurant where the daiquiri was "invented" and Hemingway drank. You can barely see a bunch of people behind that old car. Every Sunday they sell ice cream for like 5 cents to the locals. The line was about 1/2 kilo long. And it was hot. My friend and I walked right in as we were willing to pay $1. It was bizzare...average monthly wage, for those who can find a job, is like $25. Crazy...

[Naam]

Langkawi- Malaysia

At 1hour and half from Satun by boat.

international Airport

995 of the population speak English

Nice beaches (Pantai Cenang)

Duty free island

-sky high property prices

-living expenses double of mainland Malaysia

-living expenses triple of Thailand

[rono]

Nobody yet mentioned this about Panama: The official paper currency is the U.S. dollar, which is accepted everywhere at the rate of One Panamanian Balboa = US$1.

After seeing my minimal monthly pension steadily decline, decline, decline since I've been here due to THB/USD rates, wherever I live next won't offer that aggravation.

I like the sound of that cool Panamanian city in the mountains (Boquette). Can't stand the heat here. When I return to the States in June I will try the RV nomad thing for awhile, chasing the good weather like my brother has been doing for years. I believe I can live ok within my $2K/mo SSA pension, plus I'll have Medicare coverage. If I get bored or antsy again, Panama will be my next destination. Not too far to travel back and forth to the U.S. for visits, in addition to the advantages already mentioned.

There are some websites about people living in an RV, they travel the whole year from north to south and claim they get by on 500-1000 USD per month.

cheaprvliving.com

[craigt3365]

Nobody yet mentioned this about Panama: The official paper currency is the U.S. dollar, which is accepted everywhere at the rate of One Panamanian Balboa = US$1.

After seeing my minimal monthly pension steadily decline, decline, decline since I've been here due to THB/USD rates, wherever I live next won't offer that aggravation.

I like the sound of that cool Panamanian city in the mountains (Boquette). Can't stand the heat here. When I return to the States in June I will try the RV nomad thing for awhile, chasing the good weather like my brother has been doing for years. I believe I can live ok within my $2K/mo SSA pension, plus I'll have Medicare coverage. If I get bored or antsy again, Panama will be my next destination. Not too far to travel back and forth to the U.S. for visits, in addition to the advantages already mentioned.

There are some websites about people living in an RV, they travel the whole year from north to south and claim they get by on 500-1000 USD per month.

cheaprvliving.com

You can live very cheap...but you can also live on 30,000 Baht a month here in Thailand...not that I would want to do that. Big problem with RVing now is the cost of gas. I have many, many, many RVing friends...quite a few who are full timers...and they have all changed their lifestyles by traveling less and staying in one place longer. But it is truly a great lifestyle!

[PattayaParent]

I guess we all missed it if you are planning on retireing in Thailand on $1000-$1800 a month unless you have the 800,000 in the bank you will not qualify. At the exchange rate of 32baht to the dollar you need over $2000 a month

It's going to need the 800k lump sum deposit to start with ($25,000) and to remain untouched for renewal and the $1,000 - 1,800 a month pension for living expenses.

[Tejas]

I guess we all missed it if you are planning on retireing in Thailand on $1000-$1800 a month unless you have the 800,000 in the bank you will not qualify. At the exchange rate of 32baht to the dollar you need over $2000 a month

It's going to need the 800k lump sum deposit to start with ($25,000) and to remain untouched for renewal and the $1,000 - 1,800 a month pension for living expenses.

Seriously.........once again..........I am the OP.........I have been updating the summary.........I want another person to do it. Please.......thanks.

[vantexan]

IMHO, I would say Uruguay is on top..........I am now fascinated by the place.

By the way, I am tired of doing the summary.

I am the OP. I have been updating over and over again (I think very useful but.........getting tired doing it).

Will another person please volunteer to take over. Thanks.

I followed the forum at UruguayLiving.com for about a year. Finally decided it wasn't for me. It's not a terrible place, but I think the closest description of the place I've seen is "it's Iowa with a nice beach." It's safe violent crime wise, but the lack of job opportunities has resulted in a high theft rate. That and a lack of mountains crosses it off my list. Not the best climate, although not the worst. It can get hot and humid in the summer, and housing is built with little if any insulation. Can result in very cold homes in the winter.

You should check out La Serena, Chile. Not too big, good shopping, great colonial atmosphere. One plus of Uruguay is lack of earthquakes. West side of Argentina and all of Chile pretty prone to 'quakes. Another mountain range outside of the Andes is in the Cordoba, Argentina area. Some very popular towns in the mountains near Cordoba, and Cordoba has everything without being the huge metropolis Buenos Aires is. Mendoza on west side near Chilean border is also very popular. If you are looking for mountain towns with a great lifestyle go to Google Images and look up Bariloche and San Martin de los Andes. Another place worth checking out is Puerto Varas, Chile. It was featured on the CBS show "The Amazing Race" this season.

One thing that is a big draw for me in SE Asia is the food. Argentina and Uruguay are known for their steaks, Chile for seafood. But everything I've read on the subject says Peru has the best food in South America, and probably the only country in S.A. that is comparable to SE Asia in interesting cuisine. I love steak, but wouldn't want to eat it or variations of beef at every meal.

If you are white, and just want to blend in, Argentina is your best bet, followed by Uruguay, then to some extent Chile.

Right now for me it's coming down to Ecuador or Cambodia. Possibly Mendoza or La Serena. Most likely Cuenca, Ecuador because it's an anomaly. Big enough to have everything you need, great scenery, mild weather year'round, safe, mostly middle class, can have permanent residency with all the rights of citizenship by buying property there. Can buy very reasonably priced condo's in great neighborhoods with everything in walking distance or cheap taxiride. World class colonial architecture. And closest place to the States with these qualitys. International Living named Cuenca the world's number 1 retiree destination. It has great medical too, including a private hospital affiliated with the Boston University Medical Center. You can get private insurance through them if you are under 70 starting at $85 a month. U.S. Dollar is the currency, no fluctuations. Even has a couple of multiplex theaters playing American movies in English with Spanish subtitles. A couple who own their home can be comfortable on $700 a month, bump that up to $1100 if you rent, a bit more if you own a car. Ecuador is OPEC's newest member too, last i read gas costs $1.50 a gallon there. DirecTV Latin America has most of the English channels on it, including the movie channels. Daily highs are generally in the mid-70's, can cool off a bit at night, can get into the 40's at night in the winter. I've seen repeatedly from expats there that the streets are clean, noise is minimal, no crowing roosters, no mangy, starving dogs in the streets. It's an anomaly for Latin America.

[Naam]

I guess we all missed it if you are planning on retireing in Thailand on $1000-$1800 a month unless you have the 800,000 in the bank you will not qualify. At the exchange rate of 32baht to the dollar you need over $2000 a month

It's going to need the 800k lump sum deposit to start with ($25,000) and to remain untouched for renewal and the $1,000 - 1,800 a month pension for living expenses.

wrong!

[PattayaParent]

I guess we all missed it if you are planning on retireing in Thailand on $1000-$1800 a month unless you have the 800,000 in the bank you will not qualify. At the exchange rate of 32baht to the dollar you need over $2000 a month

It's going to need the 800k lump sum deposit to start with ($25,000) and to remain untouched for renewal and the $1,000 - 1,800 a month pension for living expenses.

wrong!

You mean you don't need 800k to renew after the first visa?

[Kaoboi Bebobp]

I guess we all missed it if you are planning on retireing in Thailand on $1000-$1800 a month unless you have the 800,000 in the bank you will not qualify. At the exchange rate of 32baht to the dollar you need over $2000 a month

It's going to need the 800k lump sum deposit to start with ($25,000) and to remain untouched for renewal and the $1,000 - 1,800 a month pension for living expenses.

wrong!

You mean you don't need 800k to renew after the first visa?

800,000 baht OR income of 65,000/month. But to confirm, go to the Visa subforum where TV experts have answered this query many times. chrs

[PattayaParent]

But a pension of $1,000 to $1,800 is less than 65,000 Baht at todays rate so the only option is to put the lump sum in the bank up front. (or lie about your income).

Edit: maybe they have a 50/50 option? 400k in the bank and 32,500 Baht monthly income?

[ray23]

Last I heard that would work.

There is also in support of a Thai

400K or 40K a month and some or all of that can be earned here in Thailand. I don't have that. so I working from a very faulty memory.

It would be very difficult for me to pull up roots everything is in place, I have spent years now adjusting to Thailand and doing it again somewhere else doesn't sound exciting. Unlike most I have actually done better here not working then I did working in my former country. actually have more on the bank now. Made good money in the states. But, California living expenses were not cheap.

I really looked a Ecuador when I was going through my adjustments an still didn't roots here. I spoke a bit of Spanish that would have made life easier. Made several contacts in the Country. One of which was an Australian couple they loved it. Next thing I knew they had moved to the states. Just about anywhere is exciting in the first year. But, the long run cam be very different.

Don't have roots spend a year or two renting . See what Thailand look like after that.

I looked Costa Rica as well overpriced for me.

I love Mexico, that is the Mexico of the last decade. People were friendly climate in Rosarita Beach very pleasant, lots of expats, 30 mins. and you would be in the line waiting to cross the border. My favorite foods. But I lean toward Asian ladies all in my mind.

Perfect then ten years ago. But, ten year has really changed things a lot I doubt I would feel safe there today and can anywhere. For the most part the people that I have known who lived here and just go fed up ended up coming back.

Not trying to discourage anyone, just relating my experiences.

[BEENTHEREDONETHAT]

I've posted several post on the positive side regarding Uruguay. Seems only fair to show both sides. The following is a post I copied from a Uruguay forum.

Message From: lasoria

Please!!!!!! There is no way you can live on $1300 a month in Uruguay unless you plan not to have any decent medical insurance, no home insurance (bad choice if you decide not to), decide to freeze in winter (electricity is VERY expensive here!)...not drive at all (gas is very expensive) and you must have auto insurance now by law... and that's not cheap... you'll need it believe you me! Many of the sources you've been getting your information from are not accurate... my husband and I were also told (by a family member who lives in Montevideo...!! but who we now know lives very differently to what we're used to living like in the US) we could live on $1500 - 2000 a month and that's just NOT true. I strongly suggest you visit here for at least a month if you can muster it and get a feel for Uruguay before packing up and trekking out here... Advice from a 4-year resident from CA who yearns to return home ... someday. PS: Atlantida will be less expensive, as will Colonia, but La Barra is very expensive (home prices have skyrocketed in the past five years!) since it's the "trendy" place to be and one other thing... if you plan on being here year-round La Barra is a ghost town in the winter months (May - September)... and food and restaurants are just as expensive or more than in the US.

[Jingthing]

Personally I'd be bored to death in Colonia, Uruguay. I took a day trip there once, that was enough for me. I do think Uruguay is overrated as an expat retirement choice but I agree Cuenca, Ecuador is intriguing.

[craigt3365]

I think you would be bored to death in Cuenca, Ecuador also. A very small city, few foreigners, few foreign goods. But! Beautiful scenery and plenty to do outdoors. Petty crime is there, bad roads, bad drivers....you think Thailand is bad....I have some good friends who just came back from Peru. They were there for work, but would not go back.

[Jingthing]

I think you would be bored to death in Cuenca, Ecuador also. A very small city, few foreigners, few foreign goods. But! Beautiful scenery and plenty to do outdoors. Petty crime is there, bad roads, bad drivers....you think Thailand is bad....I have some good friends who just came back from Peru. They were there for work, but would not go back.

You're probably right but I haven't been there yet. I am sure I couldn't live in Quito though due to the crime, etc. I have only been to Lima in Peru. I rather liked it but the crime outside a few areas is intense, but the food is fantastic (I am sure better than Ecuador). No retirement visa option for Peru.

[newtronbom]

Why hasn't anybody mentioned Malaysia? Pros: They welcome foreigners, it's much easier to get a visa, the cost of living is about the same as it is here, it is a "multi cultural/ religious country that lives in harmony, land prices are vey cheap. you can own your own land - but some areas must have a "Muslim majority", not all, the weather is better than here, it is not so crowded, most of them speak English and I found most Malays to be very helpful. There are many beautiful places to tour. Very central for Asia touring. Mountain type living down to beach style living. Terrific coffee and tea. Ex British colony with that still quite a large factor in their set up. Very stable, both politically and economically

Cons: There is a definite sway towards the "Muslim" side of things, it is smaller than T/L, girls are much harder to find if you are single - but not impossible - just take care, I don't know what the employment opportunities are like, you can't bribe the old bill for not wearing a crash helmet like ya can here(good thing in my opinion), they have a law that can keep you in prison for very little evidence under the terrorist/ sedition side of things for up to 2 years if the bib don't like you (bad thing in my opinion)- having said that, you must be up to no good in some very bad way to cop that one - there is a distinct lack of night life, more Indian food than I like, a lot of poor, huge gap between rich and poor.Too many Chinese tourists.

Still, not a bad place to live.

[moe666]

You guys missed Naams highlights, the 800,000 doesn't have to stay in the bank you can spend it down and then charge it back up 3 months prior to extension after the first extension only two months needed for first.

It still looks like Thailand comes in first after reading the negatives of other hotspots.

[Tejas]

You guys missed Naams highlights, the 800,000 doesn't have to stay in the bank you can spend it down and then charge it back up 3 months prior to extension after the first extension only two months needed for first.

It still looks like Thailand comes in first after reading the negatives of other hotspots.

Well.........that was a long diversion. This thread is not about Thailand.

Back on topic:

For some very useful comments see post #140 (too much info. there to update below).

For an interesting country comparison tool, see this link: http://www.prosperity.com/default.aspx

UPDATE from previous posts (see Uruguay): Reminder: We are talking about alternative where you can "live well" on a monthly income of US$1000 - 1800. The focus is on low-middle income pensioners because these are the ones being hurt most by Thailand's crazy retirement system. Pensioners with big money can retire anywhere. To include them would mean to include all countries. Healthcare, retirement visa system, infrastructure are critical for pensioners (need more info. on these items below). Also, it would be nice to get comments about Western type comforts (food, malls, etc).

Cambodia: massive annual GNP growth, looks like Thailand; friendly people; English spoken widely; more expensive than Thailand but some say less expensive than Thailand; don't want to get sick there but close to Thailand so if it is not an emergency situation you can go to Thailand for medical care; infrastructure improving but long way to go); best visa situation in Asia and good Western food in PP and SR and SNVL. SNVL could, eventually, become the next small version of Pattaya after the international airport opens there.....lots of development plans for SNVL. Same water and sunset view as you find in Pattaya, but far fewer people.

Philippines: safe and unsafe areas; beautiful beaches; storm problem; most people speak English; easy visa system; some possible retirement destinations are Boracay, Dumaguete, Panglao Island, Puerto Galera (avoid Manilla); one poster said this: having lived in the Philippines for 7 yrs as an expat......I can add a few comments about the place. Baguio City is one of the most livable areas in the Phil. High elevation summer capitol with moderate temperatures....but is still prone to the many typhoons that aim at the Phil every year. Weather is never boring there. Down south, there are many nice areas (the islands) that have small expat communities. Camiguin, Cebu (outside the city), Dumagetti, Bohol.....7,100 island to choose from. some 'jewels in the China seas, but lots of ruined enviornment and poor and crumbling infrastructure. Friendly people....sometimes too friendly, but always smiling like Thais. Poverty is much more obvious and the local food is swill. most violent crime is confined to the cities. Local transport is basic, but cheap. roads are the worse i've ever seen and road manners are worse than here. Immigration is much easier than LOS and I think cheaper. One poster added: I spent a few weeks in Dumaguette...very nice town right on the ocean. Great diving just offshore! Philippines, why ? cost of living same as T, gals, same as T but speak English. health care, excellent world class in Manila, Ok in Cebu as well.

Favorite places, Dumaguette , Bantanyan Island, Forget that cesspool Angeles.

Malaysia: have a retirement program to attract foreigners that makes things a lot easier than it is in Thailand; you can own your own house; Malaysia would be easier for many expats (in terms of language, certain kinds of convenience, etc.) There are many more places than Penang to check out; one poster said this about Malaysia: Malaysia probably won't fall into your 1,000-1,800 criteria. For persons over 50 a deposit of $42,500 and monthly income of $2,850 (about 92,000 baht) is required. If you have a government pension of $2,850/mo or more then the deposit is not required. The official program MM2H (Malaysia My 2nd Home) is not bad if you can afford it. I have watched this program change every couple of months for the last two years - mostly good changes. You can import a car duty free (one time) oh, does not apply to motorcycles - sorry Harley. You can buy any number of homes but price has to be above $75,250 each. One poster just added: A couple of pages ago someone mentioned wanting somewhere cooler in south east Asia - how about Cameron Highlands in Malaysia? MM2H is a very good visa system (if you can afford it). 10 year renewable visa - you only need to go to Immigration every 10 years, slight improvement on 90 days here. The visa can be renewed every 10 years on the same terms that you went in on. I also like the fact that, whilst they ask you take out medical insurance, if you are unable to do so all you need to do is a get refusal letter from an insurance company, and they accept that. You can buy property freehold as a foreigner but currently upwards of RM 500,000 (5 million baht equiv). There are rumours that this might change (downwards). Rental prices are not too bad either outside of KL and Penang island. It's English speaking, the food's great. More on Malaysia: Cameron Highlands in Malaysia?" most beautiful area to live but unfortunately extremely poor infrastructure (think it is cool there).

Vietnam: long coastline; storm prone; developing rapidly; health care in Hanoi reported to be excellent but not good in hinterland; one poster said "not as friendly" as Thailand; one poster said no set visa policy for retirees (think need more info. here); Retirement visa - I don't think they have one, all retirees are said to be married to VN and get 5 year resident visas (5 year resident visa is a big improvement over Thailand); one poster said: ...will be moving to live in Vietnam in a few months.I would say from my previous visits there that Vietnam certainly fulfils most if not all of the above criteria.The only difficult thing might be to find one city or town that has them all.For instance Saigon has good medical facilities but it's relatively expensive for housing and its not cool or particularly clean.Hanoi has good medical facilities,but it is quite dirty,however for part of the year it's actually cold,it certainly was when we were there in January.I've just come back from a 6 week tour of Vietnam,from Hanoi/Ha Long Bay to Hue/Da Nang/Hoi An/Nha Trang /Saigon and the Mekong Delta inc Phu Quoc island.I've been many times before and am married to a Vietnamese girl,we have a 1 year old boy as well.Out of the main tourist areas it's cheaper than Thailand,certainly housing,food and drink.Unfortunately though the medical facilities out in those places leave a lot to be desired,but then transport in Vietnam is relatively good,and if you live reasonably close to a regional airport,its cheap and easy to fly to Saigon/Hanoi.I wouldn't say English is widely spoken, but in the main tourist areas a fair number speak it.It's a lot easier to learn Vietnamese than Thai,the alphabet is similar to ours, the words are shorter and although it is a tonal language,the version of Vietnamese written today was basically invented by the French last century.The visa situation is easier there(for me anyway).Because I am married to a Vietnamese,I have a 5 year visa EXEMPTION,it's not a visa,just a sticker in my passport saying I don't need a visa.The only thing is that I can't stay in Vietnam more than 90 days at a time,so I will have to leave every 90 days(very similar to the Non O here).It may well be that I can get some sort of residence visa when I am there,I will have to find out,or maybe someone there knows the answer to that?). more on visas by one poster: Update on the visa situation for VN. I visited the immigration office in Ha Noi last week and was told by the lady that says she issues residence visas that there is no such thing as a retirement visa for VN, you can only get a 6 month visa uless you are there for work or an investor. Also being married or dependent only entitles you to a 6 month visa that can be renewed continually. If you have a visa exemption that entitles you to a 3 month stay this can be renewed continually at a cost of $10 per renewal. This is what the Immigration Officer TOLD me and did not show any written regulations to support this. I know that one TV member has managed to get a 1 year visa after completion of his work in VN but guess that may have been with the help of some $$? Two posters added: Dalat is a really great place. Maybe a bit too quiet for me, but the fresh veggies. More: Dalat in Vietnam is at a higher altitude. No much to do there, though. And for sure it gets cold in the north of Vietnam. I was there a few years ago and canceled a trip up to the mountains as the roads were closed due to snow! Nha Trang is a place quite a few folks like. Some expats there as well. Nice beach. amazing! Vietnam, Ah, 2nd choice. A lot to contend with but beautiful and friendly. Many Many choices. Delat, my favorite. Hochimin, a nightmare, Hanoi, has it all. More: Do Son, near Hai Phong in North Viet Nam (talking about a coastal city similar to Pattaya with cool climate).

Indonesia: visa system is not that easy; Bali in expensive in some areas and not so expensive in others; Lombok has been mentioned as one other possibility; certainly Indonesia has thousands of islands; earthquake problem; More: Bali is an amazing island. I have not been to many "South Pacific" islands...but Bali is truly a paradise...as long as you avoid Kuta; another poster: I'd suggest Indonesia; anywhere near the coast on the Western side of Java, or perhaps Lombok. They do have a retirement visa program plus alternatives if you have a local contact / wife / sponsor; another poster: In regards to living in Bali, I would suggest the other side of the Island, Lovina is just gorgeous, black volcanic sand & prestine beaches, 5 minutes up the road if you prefer the tropical forest areas with views of the ocean then Kalibukbuk or Kaliasem.. There is an emergancy medical clinic, run by a Western Women.. And for convieniences that you will find in a big town, you have all the services you need from the Old Capital just 7km down the road Singrajah (think thats how you spell it) Lovina has lovely traditional style hotels & resturants & beach Warungs, fresh fruit sellers on the beach & internet warungs.. The beauty is that there is not many tourists here as most stay on the other side of island in Kuta etc.. There is also the Old Capital Airport for travel to connecting flights to Denpesar Airport.. Visa can be tricky, but there are great people to help you out.. Fantastic Expat Community all over the island with their own website forum site, just google it, aslo you can live quiet comfortably for under AU$1000.00 per month..

Lao PDR: Unsure if cheaper than Thailand; can be pleasant according to one poster; one poster added this about food: lovely breads and bakeries widely available and delicious

China: Kunming is the City of Eternal Spring (sounds like cool weather); China is huge and difficult to generalize about; Zhuhai across from Macau is a popular retirement destination (nice city in my opinion); more from a poster: China gives one Year Visa, multiple Entries when married. Hainan, Sanya is a wonderfull place, Prices, Rent, Food nearly same as LOS.Redwine much cheaper. Good and cheap flight connections. Like the Food :-)

Panama: Panama sensed an opportunity and developed a retiree incentive program that International Living calls the world's best. One retirement opt is based on showing a pension (or social security) of only 500 USD plus 100 USD per dependent (somebody check for accuracy). Retirees get discounts on travel, entertainment, shopping, services. But like Costa Rica so many have moved in that the country is having growing pains. Like Thailand most of the country is very hot and humid. The highland town of Boquette has a very nice climate and has been heavily promoted by International Living. And it's First World prices reflect that.

Argentina: Argentina became the single best bargain in Latin America, possibly the world, after their monetary crisis of 2002. Literally overnight after their peso was devalued costs were 75% less in American Dollars. Unfortunately while the exchange rate has hovered around 3.8 Pesos to the Dollar rampant inflation has brought costs back up close to where they were pre-crisis. However outside of Buenos Aires there are many choices with a good quality of life that are reasonably priced. And as one of the world's largest countries there's climate and scenery that suits about anyone. They have some nice beach towns but winter weather on the coast is pretty raw. Some cities popular with expats are Mendoza, Bariloche, Salta, and Cordoba. But Buenos Aires is the big draw for foreigners, world class city if you are an urbanite; great beef. A reminder about Argentina, there is no bank account method to qualify, you must have a permanent income, or no go for the retirement visa (maybe too expensive for the pensioners in question.....not sure); Many expats make border runs on tourist cards for many years. Argentina has no problem with that. Google Buenos Aires Expats Forum for tons of info. Many Argentines speak English. The Buenos Aires Herald is an excellent newspaper in English. Still, once there you'd want to take classes and get up to speed. I think the inflation issue is serious, but it may lead to another crisis. Might be worth moving there for a few years if the Peso is devalued again. Can always plan your next move while enjoying the best steaks in the world at near giveaway prices! According to one poster who has been there, there are reports of Argentina hassling people doing too many tourist card runs, it isn't predictable; Living there on tourists cards means you won't get a DNI number, you can never settle there very well without one (bank accounts, utilities, perhaps even health insurance (not sure)), in any case it is an important thing for many aspects of living there and a passport number doesn't replace it; Another great thing, overstays are not criminalized. People deal with it by flying out and paying a small fine, then returning and starting all over again; Expats mostly learn Spanish, yes it is easier than Thai, but there are functional reasons. For example, go the websites to do things there (businesses, etc.) and it is all Spanish, no translations. Unlike Thailand where English has almost become a semi-official second language. That definitely is not the case in Argentina. Of course there is some English media, and an English expat forum; Yes the peso can change, and the country has a recent history of economic volatility; If you do have a verifiable retirement income stream, the amount required is quite low, probably all US social security recipients can qualify, but all of the required money must be imported into a bank there annually; It certainly is a great place to visit, best steaks and excellent wine, very interesting people (very high per capita rates of both psychotherapy and cosmetic surgery! Argentina, between rising costs and hassles, isn't worth it (according to one poster). The hassles are endless red tape and systemic corruption. I've read many times that get away from the biggest cities and the people are some of the most genuinely friendly in the world. If the most beautiful women in the world is what you are after then Argentina is definitely in the running. Go to Google Images, search Argentinian babe, holy Toledo! Some other things about Argentina...97% European heritage. 50% Italian, 30% Spanish, substantial English, Irish, French, German, Welsh and other minorities. Argentines like to camp, campgrounds in most towns. You'll find cineplexes in most small cities and large cities have multiple choices. Most American movies play there, usually in English with Spanish subtitles unless childrens' movie. Actually American owned cineplexes are in most of Latin America now, especially Cinemark. Argentina is slightly smaller than India but only has about 44 million people. It's one of the few countries that produces everything it needs but is so poorly managed it struggles financially. The gov't confiscated the national retirement fund last year to pay for it's socialist programs. Buenos Aires has far and away the best bookstores in Latin America. It's a very literate population. COOL WEATHER: Bariloche es AWESOME! This place really does have it all. It is absolutely beautiful, the Andes provide an almost unbelievable backdrop for this mid-size ski town. Bariloche sits about 10-15 km from Cerro Catedral, which is actually the most prominent ski area in South America; has change of seasons. More: I would highly recommend checking out Argentina. BA, Mendoza, Cordoba, Salta, Bariloche, Patagonia...so many fantastic places to see. We spent 2 months there, including 2 weeks in Chile...barely scratched the surface. Of the 70 countries I have visited, Argentina ranks right at the top for me. But I do love steak and wine! You HAVE to speak at least a little Spanish. Mandatory. Can't help you with the rights issues, but I have heard there are some visa problems. May have to do border runs? I would check out the expat websites for more info...also lonelyplanet.com and tripadvisor.com. Many, many Americans rent apartments in BA.

Chile: Chile is easily one of the most corruption free and stable countries in the Americas, and also one of the most amicable to foreigners looking to relocate or retire.; Puerto Monte in the south has is a European-like town overlooking the ocean and Andes Mountains; has change of seasons

Costa Rica: sort of the Thailand of Latin America. It was the top expat location but so many foreigners moved in that the government ended most of the great retiree incentives it offered. Crime and costs have soared. Still, many expats there but also many moved out, especially to Panama; Pensionado required income USD 1000/mo, and not so good - rentista USD 2500/mo--must show money was converted to colons; getting expensive; housing costs have doubled in top areas; now required to join country social security; armed robbery and carjacking now a daily event; Costa Rica is nice but the benefits are going down at a rapid rate

Mexico: gorgeous coastline overlooking Pacific; great food; one poster added the following: Favorite place is San Cristobal de las Casas, Chiapas, Mexico. Go to Google Images to see pictures. City is about 140,000, has multiplex playing American movies in English, best English language bookstore in Mexico, Walmart and Sam's club are opening stores there, has beautiful pedestrian only streets in the center, can be comfortable there on $700 a month, live very well on $1200. Unlike northern Mexico these days, San Cristobal is safe, with much to see and do. Single biggest drawback is wet season with alot of rain. But at 7000' overall it's mild most of the time, but nights can get chilly.

Colombia: gone a long way towards fixing it's problems. Terrorist groups have been marginalized to remote areas and drug cartels are no longer threatening stability. Bogota's north side looks like a prosperous American city. Security is everywhere, people go out there. The city that's attracting alot of expats is Medellin. It has a year'round spring like climate and is very clean; Colombia officially requires a substantial pension to live there, but doesn't enforce it. Expats are living comfortably there in smaller cities for much less than $1000 a month. Definitely a place you need Spanish though to truly enjoy it. I think the Group is called Colombia_Expats, not certain.

Chile: most expensive country in Latin America as well as it's most prosperous with excellent infrastructure; stunning views of the ocean and mountains; can get very cold is the south; lots of Europeans have already retired there in so-called "little Switzerland" areas

Ecuador: good retirement visa system; one city in particular, Cuenca, that is very beautiful, mild but cool climate, all the amenities; does have crime issues. Somebody mentioned Esmeraldes which is the most crime ridden area of the country. Cuenca in general is safe, using common sense; one poster said: Regarding Ecuador Visa, your best bet should be STUDENT VISA, which 's easy&cheaper and easy to be extended tax free, just start searching a spanish language school now in quito or other small town in ecuador. and obtaining that letter for admission to an Ecuadorian language school; another poster concerned about visas and crime: It is clear their retirement visa is easily obtainable if you have a provable pension of a "certain amount" which I think isn't much. However the other alternative options are very unclear to me. If anyone understands what they mean exactly on how to qualify without a pension, let us know.

http://www.ecuador.org/immigrantvisas.htm Also the dollarization there is attractive to Americans, no exchange rate worries.

I have begun to plan trips there a few times, but every time I do, reading about the horrible crime situation in Quito has put me off; once you arrive in quito, you'll have plenty of time to find the a resonably-priced agent which can arrange your retirement visa package hassel free; another poster: Last I read Ecuador will give permanent residency by either buying real estate worth at least $25,000 or depositing $25k in an Ecuadorean bank. That gives you all the rights of citizens except right to vote or hold office.

Uruguay: Google UruguayLiving.com for an excellent forum. Uruguay has low violent crime but serious property crime. You have to be vigilant to live there. A British couple went out to eat their first day there to take a break from unpacking. Came back 3 hrs later to find everything gone! It's a serious problem there. One place I like is Colonia del Sacramento, possibly the prettiest colonial town in South America and Portugese colonial to boot. Interesting thing is it's about 1.5 hrs by ferry across from Buenos Aires. It's where B.A. expats go to renew their tourist cards. One poster really sees it as a good alternative to Thailand. One poster said: Uruguay is easy to travel around and safe. I would avoid many areas of Montevideo at night, but that can be said of pretty much any major city in the world. Colonia is a really cool city. Small, nice beaches (river beaches), cool cafes, but really crowded on weekends due to visitors from BA. More: I corresponded with a couple a few years ago who just moved to Uruguay. Met them on Lonely Planet. They said they got a place inland and north of Montevideo quite cheap. Prices are quite a bit higher than Argentina. Veggies are not part of the main diet...except for a garden salad...We drove from MV to almost the border with Brazil. Roads were great. MOre: Have been checking into Uruguay and corresponding with an immigration attorney. So this info should be reasonably accurate. To retire there, you must show a monthly income of $500USD a month. Pass an interpol check for police clearance. Pass a medical (sounds similar to LOS). But don't think you can live on $5oo a month. You can apply for permanent residency with the right legalized paperwork. i.e. Birth certificate, marriage license, +the above. The Cedula (permanent residency) takes about a year but they issue a temporary one usually within a week. Once you have been a permanent resident for 3yrs for a couple, 5 yrs for single =, you can apply for an Uruguayan passport. It is good for 5 years and renewable same as a local.

You can own property and buy houses etc, no problem. The cost of property is much like LOS some very expensive areas, like Punta De Este and some very inexpensive like inland property. It is a meat and potato diet much like Argentina and some of the best beef in the world. The people are friendly and mostly originating in Europe. The down side is the service is consistently terrible and to accomplish anything is very time consuming. They have a 23% VAT on most things so anything made out side of the country is very expensive and much of it is junk from China. But if you move there and get a cedula you can ship your household goods duty free as long as they are at least a year old. You cannot include a car in that. You need to learn Spanish but it is a piece of cake compared to Thai. The quality of work sucks. People bitch a lot about the drivers. But petro and cars are expensive so somewhat limited. Once you get your cedula it is done for three years then must be renewed same as locals. You can travel in most of South and Central America using your cedula rather than a passport.

Belize: according to one poster, it is the most expensive country in Central America (find hard to believe and would like more information on cost of living) and yet has minimal infrastructure. It's real draw is beach living and it's islands. However crime, especially in Belize City, is very high; great lobsters; scuba diving; Belize pegs it's money 2:1 to the American Dollar. That, along with most items are imported as little is produced locally, keeps things fairly expensive. If you live like a local, living in a simple wood house and eating mostly beans and rice and chicken you can live cheaply. That also means no air conditioning, no car, limited electricity. If you want an American lifestyle you'll pay alot, and still have to do without things like modern supermarkets. There are 2 paved 2 lane highways in the country, one north-south, one east-west.

Turkey: NEW TO THE LIST.......if you live there or have lived there, please gives us some input on the place.

Please add your first hand observations to the list above.........thanks.

[PattayaParent]

You guys missed Naams highlights, the 800,000 doesn't have to stay in the bank you can spend it down and then charge it back up 3 months prior to extension after the first extension only two months needed for first.

It still looks like Thailand comes in first after reading the negatives of other hotspots.

Not if you're only getting $1,000 to $1,800 a month pension you can't.

How are you going to save it when the sum is greater than your pension?

So the only option is to leave it untouched so you still have it for renewal.

[Jingthing]

You guys missed Naams highlights, the 800,000 doesn't have to stay in the bank you can spend it down and then charge it back up 3 months prior to extension after the first extension only two months needed for first.

It still looks like Thailand comes in first after reading the negatives of other hotspots.

Not if you're only getting $1,000 to $1,800 a month pension you can't.

How are you going to save it when the sum is greater than your pension?

So the only option is to leave it untouched so you still have it for renewal.

Nope. A person getting a pension under 65K baht per month would use the COMBINATION method to qualify. That is, the pension/income amount PLUS Thai bank account totally 800K annually. For example, a person with a 600K baht annual income would only need 200K in a Thai bank, and that 200K does not to be seasoned at all (unlike those using the Thai bank account only method). The combination method can be used with any ratio of income to banked money, 100K income plus 700K bank, 500K income plus 300K bank, etc., etc., etc.

[Tejas]

People flock to Thailand for a reason..

This thread is not about Thailand. It is for people who no longer have Rose-colored glasses on and are looking for an alternative to Thailand.

We don't care about your opinions about Thailand.....get it?

I could use "polite" Texas talk to tell you what I think about the people who keep trying to hijack this thread............but I will refrain from doing that.

Once again (for the 50th time?), back on topic:

For some very useful comments see post #140 (too much info. there to update below).

For an interesting country comparison tool, see this link: http://www.prosperity.com/default.aspx

UPDATE from previous posts (see Uruguay): Reminder: We are talking about alternative where you can "live well" on a monthly income of US$1000 - 1800. The focus is on low-middle income pensioners because these are the ones being hurt most by Thailand's crazy retirement system. Pensioners with big money can retire anywhere. To include them would mean to include all countries. Healthcare, retirement visa system, infrastructure are critical for pensioners (need more info. on these items below). Also, it would be nice to get comments about Western type comforts (food, malls, etc).

Cambodia: massive annual GNP growth, looks like Thailand; friendly people; English spoken widely; more expensive than Thailand but some say less expensive than Thailand; don't want to get sick there but close to Thailand so if it is not an emergency situation you can go to Thailand for medical care; infrastructure improving but long way to go); best visa situation in Asia and good Western food in PP and SR and SNVL. SNVL could, eventually, become the next small version of Pattaya after the international airport opens there.....lots of development plans for SNVL. Same water and sunset view as you find in Pattaya, but far fewer people.

Philippines: safe and unsafe areas; beautiful beaches; storm problem; most people speak English; easy visa system; some possible retirement destinations are Boracay, Dumaguete, Panglao Island, Puerto Galera (avoid Manilla); one poster said this: having lived in the Philippines for 7 yrs as an expat......I can add a few comments about the place. Baguio City is one of the most livable areas in the Phil. High elevation summer capitol with moderate temperatures....but is still prone to the many typhoons that aim at the Phil every year. Weather is never boring there. Down south, there are many nice areas (the islands) that have small expat communities. Camiguin, Cebu (outside the city), Dumagetti, Bohol.....7,100 island to choose from. some 'jewels in the China seas, but lots of ruined enviornment and poor and crumbling infrastructure. Friendly people....sometimes too friendly, but always smiling like Thais. Poverty is much more obvious and the local food is swill. most violent crime is confined to the cities. Local transport is basic, but cheap. roads are the worse i've ever seen and road manners are worse than here. Immigration is much easier than LOS and I think cheaper. One poster added: I spent a few weeks in Dumaguette...very nice town right on the ocean. Great diving just offshore! Philippines, why ? cost of living same as T, gals, same as T but speak English. health care, excellent world class in Manila, Ok in Cebu as well.

Favorite places, Dumaguette , Bantanyan Island, Forget that cesspool Angeles.

Malaysia: have a retirement program to attract foreigners that makes things a lot easier than it is in Thailand; you can own your own house; Malaysia would be easier for many expats (in terms of language, certain kinds of convenience, etc.) There are many more places than Penang to check out; one poster said this about Malaysia: Malaysia probably won't fall into your 1,000-1,800 criteria. For persons over 50 a deposit of $42,500 and monthly income of $2,850 (about 92,000 baht) is required. If you have a government pension of $2,850/mo or more then the deposit is not required. The official program MM2H (Malaysia My 2nd Home) is not bad if you can afford it. I have watched this program change every couple of months for the last two years - mostly good changes. You can import a car duty free (one time) oh, does not apply to motorcycles - sorry Harley. You can buy any number of homes but price has to be above $75,250 each. One poster just added: A couple of pages ago someone mentioned wanting somewhere cooler in south east Asia - how about Cameron Highlands in Malaysia? MM2H is a very good visa system (if you can afford it). 10 year renewable visa - you only need to go to Immigration every 10 years, slight improvement on 90 days here. The visa can be renewed every 10 years on the same terms that you went in on. I also like the fact that, whilst they ask you take out medical insurance, if you are unable to do so all you need to do is a get refusal letter from an insurance company, and they accept that. You can buy property freehold as a foreigner but currently upwards of RM 500,000 (5 million baht equiv). There are rumours that this might change (downwards). Rental prices are not too bad either outside of KL and Penang island. It's English speaking, the food's great. More on Malaysia: Cameron Highlands in Malaysia?" most beautiful area to live but unfortunately extremely poor infrastructure (think it is cool there).

Vietnam: long coastline; storm prone; developing rapidly; health care in Hanoi reported to be excellent but not good in hinterland; one poster said "not as friendly" as Thailand; one poster said no set visa policy for retirees (think need more info. here); Retirement visa - I don't think they have one, all retirees are said to be married to VN and get 5 year resident visas (5 year resident visa is a big improvement over Thailand); one poster said: ...will be moving to live in Vietnam in a few months.I would say from my previous visits there that Vietnam certainly fulfils most if not all of the above criteria.The only difficult thing might be to find one city or town that has them all.For instance Saigon has good medical facilities but it's relatively expensive for housing and its not cool or particularly clean.Hanoi has good medical facilities,but it is quite dirty,however for part of the year it's actually cold,it certainly was when we were there in January.I've just come back from a 6 week tour of Vietnam,from Hanoi/Ha Long Bay to Hue/Da Nang/Hoi An/Nha Trang /Saigon and the Mekong Delta inc Phu Quoc island.I've been many times before and am married to a Vietnamese girl,we have a 1 year old boy as well.Out of the main tourist areas it's cheaper than Thailand,certainly housing,food and drink.Unfortunately though the medical facilities out in those places leave a lot to be desired,but then transport in Vietnam is relatively good,and if you live reasonably close to a regional airport,its cheap and easy to fly to Saigon/Hanoi.I wouldn't say English is widely spoken, but in the main tourist areas a fair number speak it.It's a lot easier to learn Vietnamese than Thai,the alphabet is similar to ours, the words are shorter and although it is a tonal language,the version of Vietnamese written today was basically invented by the French last century.The visa situation is easier there(for me anyway).Because I am married to a Vietnamese,I have a 5 year visa EXEMPTION,it's not a visa,just a sticker in my passport saying I don't need a visa.The only thing is that I can't stay in Vietnam more than 90 days at a time,so I will have to leave every 90 days(very similar to the Non O here).It may well be that I can get some sort of residence visa when I am there,I will have to find out,or maybe someone there knows the answer to that?). more on visas by one poster: Update on the visa situation for VN. I visited the immigration office in Ha Noi last week and was told by the lady that says she issues residence visas that there is no such thing as a retirement visa for VN, you can only get a 6 month visa uless you are there for work or an investor. Also being married or dependent only entitles you to a 6 month visa that can be renewed continually. If you have a visa exemption that entitles you to a 3 month stay this can be renewed continually at a cost of $10 per renewal. This is what the Immigration Officer TOLD me and did not show any written regulations to support this. I know that one TV member has managed to get a 1 year visa after completion of his work in VN but guess that may have been with the help of some $$? Two posters added: Dalat is a really great place. Maybe a bit too quiet for me, but the fresh veggies. More: Dalat in Vietnam is at a higher altitude. No much to do there, though. And for sure it gets cold in the north of Vietnam. I was there a few years ago and canceled a trip up to the mountains as the roads were closed due to snow! Nha Trang is a place quite a few folks like. Some expats there as well. Nice beach. amazing! Vietnam, Ah, 2nd choice. A lot to contend with but beautiful and friendly. Many Many choices. Delat, my favorite. Hochimin, a nightmare, Hanoi, has it all. More: Do Son, near Hai Phong in North Viet Nam (talking about a coastal city similar to Pattaya with cool climate).

Indonesia: visa system is not that easy; Bali in expensive in some areas and not so expensive in others; Lombok has been mentioned as one other possibility; certainly Indonesia has thousands of islands; earthquake problem; More: Bali is an amazing island. I have not been to many "South Pacific" islands...but Bali is truly a paradise...as long as you avoid Kuta; another poster: I'd suggest Indonesia; anywhere near the coast on the Western side of Java, or perhaps Lombok. They do have a retirement visa program plus alternatives if you have a local contact / wife / sponsor; another poster: In regards to living in Bali, I would suggest the other side of the Island, Lovina is just gorgeous, black volcanic sand & prestine beaches, 5 minutes up the road if you prefer the tropical forest areas with views of the ocean then Kalibukbuk or Kaliasem.. There is an emergancy medical clinic, run by a Western Women.. And for convieniences that you will find in a big town, you have all the services you need from the Old Capital just 7km down the road Singrajah (think thats how you spell it) Lovina has lovely traditional style hotels & resturants & beach Warungs, fresh fruit sellers on the beach & internet warungs.. The beauty is that there is not many tourists here as most stay on the other side of island in Kuta etc.. There is also the Old Capital Airport for travel to connecting flights to Denpesar Airport.. Visa can be tricky, but there are great people to help you out.. Fantastic Expat Community all over the island with their own website forum site, just google it, aslo you can live quiet comfortably for under AU$1000.00 per month..

Lao PDR: Unsure if cheaper than Thailand; can be pleasant according to one poster; one poster added this about food: lovely breads and bakeries widely available and delicious

China: Kunming is the City of Eternal Spring (sounds like cool weather); China is huge and difficult to generalize about; Zhuhai across from Macau is a popular retirement destination (nice city in my opinion); more from a poster: China gives one Year Visa, multiple Entries when married. Hainan, Sanya is a wonderfull place, Prices, Rent, Food nearly same as LOS.Redwine much cheaper. Good and cheap flight connections. Like the Food :-)

Panama: Panama sensed an opportunity and developed a retiree incentive program that International Living calls the world's best. One retirement opt is based on showing a pension (or social security) of only 500 USD plus 100 USD per dependent (somebody check for accuracy). Retirees get discounts on travel, entertainment, shopping, services. But like Costa Rica so many have moved in that the country is having growing pains. Like Thailand most of the country is very hot and humid. The highland town of Boquette has a very nice climate and has been heavily promoted by International Living. And it's First World prices reflect that.

Argentina: Argentina became the single best bargain in Latin America, possibly the world, after their monetary crisis of 2002. Literally overnight after their peso was devalued costs were 75% less in American Dollars. Unfortunately while the exchange rate has hovered around 3.8 Pesos to the Dollar rampant inflation has brought costs back up close to where they were pre-crisis. However outside of Buenos Aires there are many choices with a good quality of life that are reasonably priced. And as one of the world's largest countries there's climate and scenery that suits about anyone. They have some nice beach towns but winter weather on the coast is pretty raw. Some cities popular with expats are Mendoza, Bariloche, Salta, and Cordoba. But Buenos Aires is the big draw for foreigners, world class city if you are an urbanite; great beef. A reminder about Argentina, there is no bank account method to qualify, you must have a permanent income, or no go for the retirement visa (maybe too expensive for the pensioners in question.....not sure); Many expats make border runs on tourist cards for many years. Argentina has no problem with that. Google Buenos Aires Expats Forum for tons of info. Many Argentines speak English. The Buenos Aires Herald is an excellent newspaper in English. Still, once there you'd want to take classes and get up to speed. I think the inflation issue is serious, but it may lead to another crisis. Might be worth moving there for a few years if the Peso is devalued again. Can always plan your next move while enjoying the best steaks in the world at near giveaway prices! According to one poster who has been there, there are reports of Argentina hassling people doing too many tourist card runs, it isn't predictable; Living there on tourists cards means you won't get a DNI number, you can never settle there very well without one (bank accounts, utilities, perhaps even health insurance (not sure)), in any case it is an important thing for many aspects of living there and a passport number doesn't replace it; Another great thing, overstays are not criminalized. People deal with it by flying out and paying a small fine, then returning and starting all over again; Expats mostly learn Spanish, yes it is easier than Thai, but there are functional reasons. For example, go the websites to do things there (businesses, etc.) and it is all Spanish, no translations. Unlike Thailand where English has almost become a semi-official second language. That definitely is not the case in Argentina. Of course there is some English media, and an English expat forum; Yes the peso can change, and the country has a recent history of economic volatility; If you do have a verifiable retirement income stream, the amount required is quite low, probably all US social security recipients can qualify, but all of the required money must be imported into a bank there annually; It certainly is a great place to visit, best steaks and excellent wine, very interesting people (very high per capita rates of both psychotherapy and cosmetic surgery! Argentina, between rising costs and hassles, isn't worth it (according to one poster). The hassles are endless red tape and systemic corruption. I've read many times that get away from the biggest cities and the people are some of the most genuinely friendly in the world. If the most beautiful women in the world is what you are after then Argentina is definitely in the running. Go to Google Images, search Argentinian babe, holy Toledo! Some other things about Argentina...97% European heritage. 50% Italian, 30% Spanish, substantial English, Irish, French, German, Welsh and other minorities. Argentines like to camp, campgrounds in most towns. You'll find cineplexes in most small cities and large cities have multiple choices. Most American movies play there, usually in English with Spanish subtitles unless childrens' movie. Actually American owned cineplexes are in most of Latin America now, especially Cinemark. Argentina is slightly smaller than India but only has about 44 million people. It's one of the few countries that produces everything it needs but is so poorly managed it struggles financially. The gov't confiscated the national retirement fund last year to pay for it's socialist programs. Buenos Aires has far and away the best bookstores in Latin America. It's a very literate population. COOL WEATHER: Bariloche es AWESOME! This place really does have it all. It is absolutely beautiful, the Andes provide an almost unbelievable backdrop for this mid-size ski town. Bariloche sits about 10-15 km from Cerro Catedral, which is actually the most prominent ski area in South America; has change of seasons. More: I would highly recommend checking out Argentina. BA, Mendoza, Cordoba, Salta, Bariloche, Patagonia...so many fantastic places to see. We spent 2 months there, including 2 weeks in Chile...barely scratched the surface. Of the 70 countries I have visited, Argentina ranks right at the top for me. But I do love steak and wine! You HAVE to speak at least a little Spanish. Mandatory. Can't help you with the rights issues, but I have heard there are some visa problems. May have to do border runs? I would check out the expat websites for more info...also lonelyplanet.com and tripadvisor.com. Many, many Americans rent apartments in BA.

Chile: Chile is easily one of the most corruption free and stable countries in the Americas, and also one of the most amicable to foreigners looking to relocate or retire.; Puerto Monte in the south has is a European-like town overlooking the ocean and Andes Mountains; has change of seasons

Costa Rica: sort of the Thailand of Latin America. It was the top expat location but so many foreigners moved in that the government ended most of the great retiree incentives it offered. Crime and costs have soared. Still, many expats there but also many moved out, especially to Panama; Pensionado required income USD 1000/mo, and not so good - rentista USD 2500/mo--must show money was converted to colons; getting expensive; housing costs have doubled in top areas; now required to join country social security; armed robbery and carjacking now a daily event; Costa Rica is nice but the benefits are going down at a rapid rate

Mexico: gorgeous coastline overlooking Pacific; great food; one poster added the following: Favorite place is San Cristobal de las Casas, Chiapas, Mexico. Go to Google Images to see pictures. City is about 140,000, has multiplex playing American movies in English, best English language bookstore in Mexico, Walmart and Sam's club are opening stores there, has beautiful pedestrian only streets in the center, can be comfortable there on $700 a month, live very well on $1200. Unlike northern Mexico these days, San Cristobal is safe, with much to see and do. Single biggest drawback is wet season with alot of rain. But at 7000' overall it's mild most of the time, but nights can get chilly.

Colombia: gone a long way towards fixing it's problems. Terrorist groups have been marginalized to remote areas and drug cartels are no longer threatening stability. Bogota's north side looks like a prosperous American city. Security is everywhere, people go out there. The city that's attracting alot of expats is Medellin. It has a year'round spring like climate and is very clean; Colombia officially requires a substantial pension to live there, but doesn't enforce it. Expats are living comfortably there in smaller cities for much less than $1000 a month. Definitely a place you need Spanish though to truly enjoy it. I think the Group is called Colombia_Expats, not certain.

Chile: most expensive country in Latin America as well as it's most prosperous with excellent infrastructure; stunning views of the ocean and mountains; can get very cold is the south; lots of Europeans have already retired there in so-called "little Switzerland" areas

Ecuador: good retirement visa system; one city in particular, Cuenca, that is very beautiful, mild but cool climate, all the amenities; does have crime issues. Somebody mentioned Esmeraldes which is the most crime ridden area of the country. Cuenca in general is safe, using common sense; one poster said: Regarding Ecuador Visa, your best bet should be STUDENT VISA, which 's easy&cheaper and easy to be extended tax free, just start searching a spanish language school now in quito or other small town in ecuador. and obtaining that letter for admission to an Ecuadorian language school; another poster concerned about visas and crime: It is clear their retirement visa is easily obtainable if you have a provable pension of a "certain amount" which I think isn't much. However the other alternative options are very unclear to me. If anyone understands what they mean exactly on how to qualify without a pension, let us know.

http://www.ecuador.org/immigrantvisas.htm Also the dollarization there is attractive to Americans, no exchange rate worries.

I have begun to plan trips there a few times, but every time I do, reading about the horrible crime situation in Quito has put me off; once you arrive in quito, you'll have plenty of time to find the a resonably-priced agent which can arrange your retirement visa package hassel free; another poster: Last I read Ecuador will give permanent residency by either buying real estate worth at least $25,000 or depositing $25k in an Ecuadorean bank. That gives you all the rights of citizens except right to vote or hold office.

Uruguay: Google UruguayLiving.com for an excellent forum. Uruguay has low violent crime but serious property crime. You have to be vigilant to live there. A British couple went out to eat their first day there to take a break from unpacking. Came back 3 hrs later to find everything gone! It's a serious problem there. One place I like is Colonia del Sacramento, possibly the prettiest colonial town in South America and Portugese colonial to boot. Interesting thing is it's about 1.5 hrs by ferry across from Buenos Aires. It's where B.A. expats go to renew their tourist cards. One poster really sees it as a good alternative to Thailand. One poster said: Uruguay is easy to travel around and safe. I would avoid many areas of Montevideo at night, but that can be said of pretty much any major city in the world. Colonia is a really cool city. Small, nice beaches (river beaches), cool cafes, but really crowded on weekends due to visitors from BA. More: I corresponded with a couple a few years ago who just moved to Uruguay. Met them on Lonely Planet. They said they got a place inland and north of Montevideo quite cheap. Prices are quite a bit higher than Argentina. Veggies are not part of the main diet...except for a garden salad...We drove from MV to almost the border with Brazil. Roads were great. MOre: Have been checking into Uruguay and corresponding with an immigration attorney. So this info should be reasonably accurate. To retire there, you must show a monthly income of $500USD a month. Pass an interpol check for police clearance. Pass a medical (sounds similar to LOS). But don't think you can live on $5oo a month. You can apply for permanent residency with the right legalized paperwork. i.e. Birth certificate, marriage license, +the above. The Cedula (permanent residency) takes about a year but they issue a temporary one usually within a week. Once you have been a permanent resident for 3yrs for a couple, 5 yrs for single =, you can apply for an Uruguayan passport. It is good for 5 years and renewable same as a local.

You can own property and buy houses etc, no problem. The cost of property is much like LOS some very expensive areas, like Punta De Este and some very inexpensive like inland property. It is a meat and potato diet much like Argentina and some of the best beef in the world. The people are friendly and mostly originating in Europe. The down side is the service is consistently terrible and to accomplish anything is very time consuming. They have a 23% VAT on most things so anything made out side of the country is very expensive and much of it is junk from China. But if you move there and get a cedula you can ship your household goods duty free as long as they are at least a year old. You cannot include a car in that. You need to learn Spanish but it is a piece of cake compared to Thai. The quality of work sucks. People bitch a lot about the drivers. But petro and cars are expensive so somewhat limited. Once you get your cedula it is done for three years then must be renewed same as locals. You can travel in most of South and Central America using your cedula rather than a passport.

Belize: according to one poster, it is the most expensive country in Central America (find hard to believe and would like more information on cost of living) and yet has minimal infrastructure. It's real draw is beach living and it's islands. However crime, especially in Belize City, is very high; great lobsters; scuba diving; Belize pegs it's money 2:1 to the American Dollar. That, along with most items are imported as little is produced locally, keeps things fairly expensive. If you live like a local, living in a simple wood house and eating mostly beans and rice and chicken you can live cheaply. That also means no air conditioning, no car, limited electricity. If you want an American lifestyle you'll pay alot, and still have to do without things like modern supermarkets. There are 2 paved 2 lane highways in the country, one north-south, one east-west.

Turkey: NEW TO THE LIST.......if you live there or have lived there, please gives us some input on the place.

Please add your first hand observations to the list above.........thanks.

[PattayaParent]

You guys missed Naams highlights, the 800,000 doesn't have to stay in the bank you can spend it down and then charge it back up 3 months prior to extension after the first extension only two months needed for first.

It still looks like Thailand comes in first after reading the negatives of other hotspots.

Not if you're only getting $1,000 to $1,800 a month pension you can't.

How are you going to save it when the sum is greater than your pension?

So the only option is to leave it untouched so you still have it for renewal.

Nope. A person getting a pension under 65K baht per month would use the COMBINATION method to qualify. That is, the pension/income amount PLUS Thai bank account totally 800K annually. For example, a person with a 600K baht annual income would only need 200K in a Thai bank, and that 200K does not to be seasoned at all (unlike those using the Thai bank account only method). The combination method can be used with any ratio of income to banked money, 100K income plus 700K bank, 500K income plus 300K bank, etc., etc., etc.

I did suggest that before.

See post #232

[craigt3365]

You guys missed Naams highlights, the 800,000 doesn't have to stay in the bank you can spend it down and then charge it back up 3 months prior to extension after the first extension only two months needed for first.

It still looks like Thailand comes in first after reading the negatives of other hotspots.

Not if you're only getting $1,000 to $1,800 a month pension you can't.

How are you going to save it when the sum is greater than your pension?

So the only option is to leave it untouched so you still have it for renewal.

Nope. A person getting a pension under 65K baht per month would use the COMBINATION method to qualify. That is, the pension/income amount PLUS Thai bank account totally 800K annually. For example, a person with a 600K baht annual income would only need 200K in a Thai bank, and that 200K does not to be seasoned at all (unlike those using the Thai bank account only method). The combination method can be used with any ratio of income to banked money, 100K income plus 700K bank, 500K income plus 300K bank, etc., etc., etc.

That, or just fill out that great form at the embassy and claim you have 65k baht or more! Done!