Marrying A Thai In England

[Desertexile]

What's stopping you from marrying each other again in the UK is the law!

As you have legally married in Thailand then you are also legally married in the UK; you cannot marry again in the UK unless you divorce each other first.

If you had just had the religious ceremony then as this is not recognised as a legal marriage in Thailand then it would also not be recognised as such in the UK; but registering the marriage at an ampur makes the marriage legal Thailand and therefore in the UK as well.

What you could do is reconfirm your vows at a registry office, church etc., but this would not be a marriage, no entry would be made in the register and you would not get a certificate.

I promise I am not stalking

I married my wife in the Amphor in Thailand in 2001, along with a religious ceremony a while later. We got married in the UK in a registrars office in 2003 - in fact my Mum married us as she is the local registrar! We hold certs in both countries and I assure you, it IS legal. Indeed, one of our guests in the UK was my Mum's boss and she acted as witness! My wife also married whilst on a 10 year visit visa.

We have 2 copies of both certs. Indeed, the reason we got married is that my mates and family didn't make it to the Thai wedding, so we wanted to get married in the UK and also for my Ma to marry us. The best man is the only person who made it to them all and his speech reflected that.

So, I have to disagree with the posts above - we are living proof and with the family connection, its hard to doubt it!

Anyways, Ive always fancied a Vegas drive through, I wonder what the deal would be for that as the 4th?

I would have thought your Mum would have known the law!

RAZZ

So would I being Supintendent and if she didn't her boss should have!

[Desertexile]

Desertexile,

When my wife first arrived in the UK in 2001 she wanted to marry again here, so I contacted our local registry office and was told by them that as we had already married in Thailand we could not marry again in the UK. We could have a ceremony, but this would not be a marriage, we would not sign the register and we would not get a certificate.

A couple of years later that information was confirmed on another forum by a highly qualified and experienced lawyer.

Therefore, with respect to your mum, I believe she was wrong.

However, if you can provide a link to an official government site that proves me wrong, then I will of course accept that it is so.

P.S. Current rules say that to marry in the UK if here as a visitor, one first has to obtain a certificate of approval (unless one has a marriage visit visa). See What is a certificate of approval?

To be honest mate, I really cant be arsed to find a link for you. I am telling you that my Ma is the County's Superintendent registrar and she married me, that her boss in charge of, what, 12 counties acted as witness. That my Ma married me and that her boss was one of our witnesses. We signed the registrar, we have 2 copies of the wedding cert and that ALL invloved know we are legally married in Thailand also. If your info from 2001 and then the lawyer on here say otherwise, no probs. I got nothing to gain from lying to you mate and no real need to search the net for answers when I have the source as family/friend!!!

Either way, good luck to all the readers who want to do the same. As I said, it is possible and on this occassion I disagree with the very knowledgable chaps above.

[Desertexile]

PS I dont know what a cert of approval is, all I know is that I was asked to leave the room whilst my Mas boss interviewed my Mrs. It took 2 mins. I didnt even ask her what was said - I'll ask her know.

OK Mrs said that she was asked to confirm her name, DOB, how long we had been married in Thailand, and was she happy and willing to marry me.

Thats all I can tell you.

Proof is in the pudding I guess. In this case, chaps, you'll just have to take my word for it as I am not gonna scan both certs and put them here!

[7by7]

PS I dont know what a cert of approval is,

If you click on the link labeled What is a certificate of approval? posted earlier, you'll find out.

Had you done so, you would see that this requirement came into force in 2005, 2 years after your 'marriage.'

Despite what you say, I still believe that if one has married abroad and that marriage is recognised as legal in the UK then one cannot marry again in the UK, unless one divorces first.

However, for the benefit of the members, rather than post unsubstantiated information which could mislead, I can be arsed to try and find out the real situation. Searching UKBA, Home Office, DirectGov, GRO sites hasn't come up with a definitive answer, so I will contact the relevant authorities.

I'll post again when I have their replies.

[7by7]

Actually, I don't have to contact anyone, lungbing has already done so

I emailed the Superintendent Registrar ( responsible for civil weddings) in my home city in England and received this reply.

quote

Thank you for your enquiry.

If you are already lawfully married to each other, the ceremony you propose will have no legal effect and will inevitably cast doubts upon the validity of the marriage which you have already contracted. It is therefore not a desirable step to take.

OK, doesn't actually say that it's illegal, but the message seems very clear to me.

[Desertexile]

If you click on the link labeled What is a certificate of approval? posted earlier, you'll find out.

Had you done so, you would see that this requirement came into force in 2005, 2 years after your 'marriage.'

Dude, there is no need to get snotty! You can't be expected to get it right every time! No, I haven't looked at your link to my 'marriage'. Why would I? Whats the value? I have the certs. hel_l, I am in BKK in a couple months, you can have a looksy at the certs if you like - of course, you will have to then admit that my Ma and and her boss aren't wrong, I'm 100% and the will have to buy me a cold one for ever doubting my 'marriage'

Despite what you say, I still believe that if one has married abroad and that marriage is recognised as legal in the UK then one cannot marry again in the UK, unless one divorces first.

No worries, thats up to you. I dont want to argue with you, I am just speaking from my first hand experience - that's all.

However, for the benefit of the members, rather than post unsubstantiated information which could mislead, I can be arsed to try and find out the real situation. Searching UKBA, Home Office, DirectGov, GRO sites hasn't come up with a definitive answer, so I will contact the relevant authorities.

I'll post again when I have their replies.

That's probably a good thing - and that you can is also good as it prolly effects your rep.

Good luck in the search.

DE

Edited April 5, 2010 by Desertexile

[7by7]

Any response from you to the reply lungbing recieved?

[Desertexile]

Actually, I don't have to contact anyone, lungbing has already done so

I emailed the Superintendent Registrar ( responsible for civil weddings) in my home city in England and received this reply.

quote

Thank you for your enquiry.

If you are already lawfully married to each other, the ceremony you propose will have no legal effect and will inevitably cast doubts upon the validity of the marriage which you have already contracted. It is therefore not a desirable step to take.

OK, doesn't actually say that it's illegal, but the message seems very clear to me.

Just saw your second post 7by7 - so no, it has no legal effect, that we know. It's like doubling up on that which is already legal. But, as my OP said - the second UK marriage was for my mates, family and a step other posters may wish to take. So, clearly, it is legal and possible to marry in the UK as well as in Thailand.

The second part regards doubt being cast on the validity of the previously contracted marriage - I guess that as long as those doubts can be thwarted IE by good reason (IE wanting a second ceremony), or in my case through personal relationships, then there is no doubt to be cast and therefore the undesirable step is also irrelevant.

You are still welcome to see my lovely certs

As for the OP - seems to me that you can action your plan as per your wife's requests - though as someone else pointed out, you'd then need to sort out wills in the UK, Thailand and any other territory you hold assets. But you prolly know that already. If your Mrs doubts you, perhaps that isnt the best thing to do.

[7by7]

And your response to "It is therefore not a desirable step to take." is?

Edit, just seen it, apols.

It seems to me that 'we wanted a second ceremony for friends and family' is adequately catered for by having an informal ceremony. Taking the 'undesirable step' of actually signing the register and so casting doubts upon the validity of one's marriage is not a step I would want to take, especially when there is a perfectly satisfactory, risk free alternative.

One further point to consider is that these days in order to register a marriage one has to declare that there is no impediment, i.e. one is free to marry. Clearly, if one is already married then one is not free to marry.

But, you've made your argument, I've made mine; it is now up to the OP and others to decide which course they wish to take.

Edited April 5, 2010 by 7by7

[Desertexile]

And your response to "It is therefore not a desirable step to take." is?

The second part regards doubt being cast on the validity of the previously contracted marriage - I guess that as long as those doubts can be thwarted IE by good reason (IE wanting a second ceremony for family and friends), or in my case through personal relationships, then there is no doubt to be cast and therefore the undesirable step is also irrelevant.

And your graceful response to A: It is necessary to divorce B: The marriage cannot be granted a cert and C: The register cannot be signed, D: My Ma (the County's Superintendent) and E: Her boss (the regional Superintendent) are wrong - is?

I guess that much of this comes down to how well one presents oneself to the Registrar. We all know that doubt is often cast on any marriage involving a Thai by the folks in Farangland. So, in this case, as long as the folks wishing to legally marry in the UK are able to nullify any doubt, then they should be absolutely fine. I guess some old fella, with a young Thai bride who needs a translator will cast that doubt in the registrar as much as some filly from the Ukraine would. Fortunately we are reasonable affluent, have similar ages and backgrounds and had good reason for wanting a second marriage in the UK. And of course my Ma being Superintendent went some way to legitimising it. Of course, its not necessary for that relationship and I personally know of two friends that have done the same, one married in another county and one other (my best mate) was married in the same county. Both were of similar ages to their wives, both married legally for about 5 years previous in Thailand and neither of the chicks turned up with their tatts showing in their slutwear.

As I said fella, you can't be expected to get it right every time and your other guidance and help is usually spot on.

Have a good'un - mines a Singha

Edited April 5, 2010 by Desertexile

[Desertexile]

Just saw this:

One further point to consider is that these days in order to register a marriage one has to declare that there is no impediment, i.e. one is free to marry. Clearly, if one is already married then one is not free to marry.

Ah yes, but now we step into the realm of Farang officialdom logic rather than Thaitainted logic. And the Registrar would clearly be able to separate the fact that one is certainly not free to marry a 'new' partner, whereas one is certainly free to marry their current partner for a second time in their home country!!!

[7by7]

And your graceful response to A: It is necessary to divorce B: The marriage cannot be granted a cert and C: The register cannot be signed, D: My Ma (the County's Superintendent) and E: Her boss (the regional Superintendent) are wrong - is?

Based upon the advice received from my local registrar and that of a highly qualified legal professional plus the advice lungbing recieved; yes, my response is that your Ma and her boss were wrong.

But as I said in my previous post: you've made your argument, I've made mine; it is now up to the OP and others to decide which course they wish to take.

[RAZZELL]

I'm no expert, but can you explain how you can get married "twice" to the same person?

RAZZ

[Desertexile]

Based upon the advice received from my local registrar

8 years ago.

and that of a highly qualified legal professional

Specialising in which area of law? And does that qualification somehow indicate that he would be more qualified to provide an answer grounded in fact than the county/regional Superintendent Registrar? And that they were in fact party to a case of 'bigamy' as a result?

plus the advice lungbing recieved;

Which clearly states that it possible to marry without divorcing, that a certified, registered marriage is possible, though may raise some question which would need to be answered!

yes, my response is that your Ma and her boss were wrong.

Yet, in the face of all this fact including the response Lungbing received which clearly states it IS legal and indeed possible, you still maintain that your experience 8 years ago,some legal pro's advice on a forum and despite the fact that you cannot find anything on all the sites you have searched which evidences your claim- you still maintain that the county's Superintendent and her boss (of which there are only 4 in the country) are still wrong, that it isn't possible?????

dam_n - now here is a man that has the courage of his own conviction even in face of all the above and an offer to personally view my certs in BKK!

Dude - there is no shame in admitting you might not have all the facts on this occasion. If you do this professionally, you would elicit more respect by doing just that.

Anyways, as you rightly said, the OP and other posters are adults who will form an opinion grounded in all the available info.

There isn't really any point in me even taking the time to scan, delete out all ref numbers/names etc and post both certs here for you as, according to your post, despite the marriage being issued with certs, this is due to a mistake made by the official registrars. And with that, I'm off to the pub.

[Desertexile]

I'm no expert, but can you explain how you can get married "twice" to the same person?

RAZZ

Nor am I Razz, though luckily the pros think you can. And by that I mean, you don't legally marry them twice, and the second does not supersede the first. It merely means you legally married in two territories, both territories recognise the other marriage equally.

I'm all for finding out if I can do it a third time in the States and do that Vegas wedding . I'll ask my Ma's boss, she's bound to have some reliable contacts being so senior and one would hope, able to identify the legality of the tasks she performs!!!!

Right, this Stella won't drink itself

Have a good'un folks

[Desertexile]

And your graceful response to A: It is necessary to divorce B: The marriage cannot be granted a cert and C: The register cannot be signed, D: My Ma (the County's Superintendent) and E: Her boss (the regional Superintendent) are wrong - is?

Based upon the advice received from my local registrar and that of a highly qualified legal professional plus the advice lungbing recieved; yes, my response is that your Ma and her boss were wrong.

But what about points A-C or are they, by definition, also wrong as the Superintendent and her boss had actually made a legal blunder by allowing the marriage in the first place, thus any docs issues or registers signed are just a bi-product of that blunder?

[7by7]

The one follows the other.

[Desertexile]

The one follows the other.

Nice. So, according to you, my marriage is thus the result of a legal blunder by not just the County's Superintendent registrar but also by one of the most senior registrars in the country. A marriage cert cannot be issued, nor can an entry be made in the register and the fact that I am holding them is evidence of this legal blunder by these two professionals who allowed this bigamous marriage to go ahead. And this opinion is based upon some info you got 8 years ago when your Thai bride wanted to marry in the UK and some legal eagle on another form but its not swayed by the cut and pasted response from Lungbling clearly confirming it is indeed legal from a third registrar.

Well, I'm convinced. I'd best warn my Ma to expect some jail time and her boss to start planning her retirement for their part in this heinous crime. We'd best all three go down to the boozer then, them to celebrate their early retirement and me to add 'bigamist' to my own hall of fame.

Edited April 5, 2010 by Desertexile

[Mossfinn]

Hi D.E

You put up a formidable argument and I must say that argument is contrary to anything I have heard up to now.

However, until I hear anything from an official source I am leaning toward your outlook, although it is not something I would recommend, but until I hear contrary to the above, I cannot see it as illegal.

We must find time to coordinate our time and risk a Stella or two

Good Luck

M

[Desertexile]

We must find time to coordinate our time and risk a Stella or two

Good Luck

M

For sure mate, you can't miss me when we meet - I'm the tall bigamist with no head stood next to the Thai chick signing the register in the signature pic to the left

Edited April 5, 2010 by Desertexile

[dudemeister]

An interesting slant from the Turkish jury:

Turkish government requires an affidavit that states that you are not married, therefore eligible for marriage in Turkey. The document is valid for 6 months. You can therefore get married in US and then in Turkey after you have this statement.

http://www.avvo.com/legal-answers/getting-...rso-182693.html

[7by7]

this opinion is based upon some info you got 8 years ago when your Thai bride wanted to marry in the UK

Why do you use the tabloid style , and to me somewhat offensive, term "Thai bride" when referring to my wife? You have not used it when referring to yours!

My local registrar says it is not possible, your mother says it is; they cannot both be right.

The lawyer whose advice you dismiss is highly qualified and appears in the High Court. (I'm afraid that I can't provide a link to his opinion, not only are links to other forums not allowed here, but it's archived anyway. Convenient, you may say, but true.)

Lungbing's response says that "the ceremony you propose will have no legal effect" that is, would not be legal.

In the opinion of my local registrar, a High Court lawyer and the registrar who replied to lungbing, whatever ceremony you mother conducted for you and your wife, it was not a legal marriage. If she and her boss think it was, they are wrong.

My opinion doesn't matter, but I'm going with the opinion of those three professionals.

Whatever others wish to do, is their choice.

BTW, your new avatar is not a photo of you signing the register. If you don't know, you mother should that people are not allowed to photograph the actual signing. That is a posed photo of a couple pretending to sign the register. Pedantry moment over.

[Desertexile]

Why do you use the tabloid style , and to me somewhat offensive, term "Thai bride" when referring to my wife? You have not used it when referring to yours!

Are you surprised that you got a bite after using a snotty tone in your posts above? If so, you shouldn't be! You have also referred to 'mine' Ie my Thai bride, In which case, I reckon that evens the scales

My local registrar says it is not possible,

8 years ago mate, and under what kind of circumstances, we do not know. Perhaps, and please don't take further offence, your original Thai marriage could have raised albeit misinformed assumption with your local registrar.

your mother says it is; they cannot both be right.

Quite so, but given that we are holding a UK marriage cert, that our names are in the register and that the whole ceremony was overseen by a Senior UK Registrar and that you have some stale info from one interaction,could it be a fair assumption that - just maybe - you may be wrong? I am sure that a gambling man would certainly place the odds in my favour.

The lawyer whose advice you dismiss is highly qualified and appears in the High Court

I do not doubt your source, though what I question is that there are many areas of law, not to mention many areas within the civil service. Again, I would hasten a bet that your source would not claim to be expert in every area of law and every aspect of civil service procedure. To argue that just because he appears in the high court, some how qualifies him to be more knowledgeable than a senior registrar is naive and a claim that I do not think your source would agree with.

(I'm afraid that I can't provide a link to his opinion, not only are links to other forums not allowed here, but it's archived anyway. Convenient, you may say, but true.)

You don't need to provide a link, I trust that you are not making it up, indeed, why would you? Though allow me a pedantry moment also, is this just an opinion or grounded in fact? Given all of the above, perhaps its more towards opinion.

Lungbing's response says that "the ceremony you propose will have no legal effect" that is, would not be legal.

That isn't quite what it says, though is it. Your point above infers illegality when in fact what it does actually state is simply that it is not 'illegal'.

whatever ceremony you mother conducted for you and your wife, it was not a legal marriage.

Yet as per your original post, that ceremony could not have produced a certificate (which I have offered to show you), be entered in the register (which I have provided photographic evidence off) or indeed gone ahead without me first divorcing my wife in Thailand (whch I didn't do) you fail to address any of those points when I raised them, apart from a snide comment about a posed picture (I have added another for you, with a 90 odd year old witness, in her wheelchair signing the register along with my Ma the registrar and her boss one of the country's most senior, clearly having trouble signing - do you want to snipe and say they got that old duck to pose like she couldn't really see where to sign so they did a 'let us assist you' pose all for prosperity? Surely not.

If she and her boss think it was, they are wrong.

Well, it's more than being wrong isn't it - its gross negligence from a two senior civil servants and highly illegal. And, one would think, with a combined 70 odd years in the game, they had conducted a fair few foreign marriages to realise that they were knowingly concerned with a bigamous marriage!!!!! This is one of the problems with web forums for reliable info, it tends to be offered as barstool advice, grounded in opinion rather than fact and provided by self professed experts. If anyone REALLY wants to marry in the UK, IE the original poster, PM me.

Whatever others wish to do, is their choice.

And in the words of a high court lawyer, I rest my case.

Edited April 5, 2010 by Desertexile

[RAZZELL]

DE -

I still can't see how you can get married twice...And I would've thought once was more than enough!

RAZZ

[Desertexile]

DE -

I still can't see how you can get married twice...And I would've thought once was more than enough!

RAZZ

haha

Three times actually - once in the local amphur, once with the wig wearing monks (prolly imposters) and once in the UK with my Ma.

In the Amphor the guy assumed I couldn't speak Thai and asked my Mrs if she was marrying me against her will and that I would probably sell her when we arrived in Farangland and that most farangs were vile mongers or pimps....Hr then turned around and asked me for 1000 baht (in English) as I had no witnesses. I then answered the bald headed somtam chomping <deleted> that I didn't need witnesses, his gruby opinion and that the two blokes walking through the door were my witnesses, one my Bro, the other Rayong's local Sor Sor. The <deleted> then excused himself before being told to fuc_k right off and a new registrar came along. fuc_k, I'm prolly lying about that too.

The second time, whilst everyone was hanging money and string off our heads, my best man and other guests hung tampaxes off my head instead of rolled up notes. fuc_kers, all the pics have my head covered in bloodless tammies.

And the final one in the UK - I thought it would be a fine idea to invite just close mates and family and to have an open bar instead of a fancy party for cats I couldn't give a fuc_k about. It ended with us all so dam_n drunk, 50% of the party off their faces and me falling asleep in the hottub prior to consummating our bigamous marriage

Hopefully Vagas should turn up even more fun........

Edited April 5, 2010 by Desertexile

[RAZZELL]

Hopefully Vagas should turn up even more fun........

Third time lucky

RAZZ

[7by7]

Why do you use the tabloid style , and to me somewhat offensive, term "Thai bride" when referring to my wife? You have not used it when referring to yours!

Are you surprised that you got a bite after using a snotty tone in your posts above? If so, you shouldn't be!

Ah, I see; people who disagree with you are 'snotty!' Got it now.

You have also referred to 'mine' Ie my Thai bride, In which case, I reckon that evens the scales

What? I cannot find any post of mine where I referred to your wife in any way other than 'your wife,' apart from the quote above, where the word 'yours' follows on from 'my wife' so is obvious to anyone that it means 'your wife.' Unless that person chooses to ignore this obvious grammatical connection. It was also made after your offensive remark.

Perhaps you could show me the post(s) you mean.

My local registrar says it is not possible,

8 years ago mate, and under what kind of circumstances, we do not know.

Your information is 7 years old, so if age is a factor yours could be just as out of date as mine. The circumstances are exactly as previously described.

The rest of your post is just repeating yourself, and I do not intend to do the same.

One thing I will add, though, is that the DirectGov page Marriage and civil partnership: your legal obligations says in big, bold letters:

You will need to provide evidence of a divorce or dissolution if you have previously been married or in a civil partnership

So tell me, how did you, and your mum, overcome that hurdle?

[Desertexile]

You will need to provide evidence of a divorce or dissolution if you have previously been married or in a civil partnership

So tell me, how did you, and your mum, overcome that hurdle?

Elementary, My Dear Watson. Simple, basic logic was applied:

I was marrying the SAME person!!!!!!

But as you rightly said, I am repeating myself and you continue to selectively answer. So, shall we draw a line under it as you are unable to come up with anything new also. And I am sat here, drinking my brew and looking at the marriage cert and off to visit my Ma and her boss today at the office, where they remain employed.

This wee story of illogical bigamy will certainly make the tea and bickies more humorous

The End.

[sumrit]

You will need to provide evidence of a divorce or dissolution if you have previously been married or in a civil partnership

So tell me, how did you, and your mum, overcome that hurdle?

Elementary, My Dear Watson. Simple, basic logic was applied:

I was marrying the SAME person!!!!!!

The End.

I haven't read all the posts here but I think I get the gist of the disagreement, and Desertexile I don't think your reply is elementary, simple or logical.

The official link governing this point that 7by7 has supplied simply states that if you've been married before ' you will need to provide evidence of a divorce or dissolution if you have previously been married or in a civil partnership'.

It doesn't distinguish between marrying the same person again or a different person, whoever you've been married to before you MUST divorce them/have the marriage dissolved first before you can marry again.

Just taken this section from the directgov webpage.

Details you need to provide to give notice

You will need to provide evidence of a divorce or dissolution if you have previously been married or in a civil partnership

You need to provide the following details :

full name

age - the minimum legal age in England and Wales is 16 years of age, but written consent may be required under 18 years

address

nationality

current status – for example single, divorced

occupation

intended venue for your marriage or civil partnership

You will be asked for documentary evidence for some information, for example your nationality, so it is advisable to take your passport. You will also need evidence of the ending of ANY PREVIOUS MARRIAGE or civil partnership.

If you are subject to immigration control, you need to produce documentary evidence to confirm that you satisfy the eligibility requirements.

So I'm just curious, what did you give as your current status and what evidence did you supply about your previous marriage in Thailand as you are required to supply evidence that ANY PREVIOUS MARRIAGE has ended?

[RAZZELL]

So I'm just curious, what did you give as your current status

DE-

I don't care if you got "married" here again or not...

But when asked "current status"..."Errr, married"....didn't that raise some issues?

RAZZ