During the course of the many debates here in OTB, have you changed your mind or opinion about something based on new evidence you saw here on these pages? I'll start - my answer is, no, not that I can remember.

Some things that you and chuckd and venturalaw have made me think and re-examine some beliefs, but nothing at all from the bats-in-the-belfry quarter.

".....have you changed your mind or opinion about something based on new evidence you saw here on these pages?"

<snip>

But to the spirit of the OP: I think I have. I can't recall exactly what it was, but someone posted information that disproved my stance, and so of course I changed my mind.

The thing is that in most of the debates, by the very nature of the debate, there is no "proof", just opinions formed from fragments of information. You have talked about cherry picking, and that occurs on both sides of all debates.

If there was proof, that would end the debate, surely?.....but no, there are the debaters that wear blinkers, and will not change their mind no matter how compelling the evidence to the contrary is. These people usually have some emotional componant or root to their argument, and refuse to see logic or reason.

".....have you changed your mind or opinion about something based on new evidence you saw here on these pages?"

<snip>

People in glass houses...

Posts have been removed for discussing moderation - Harcourt - you have been here long enough to know that there are correct channels for doing this - in public is not one of them.

Now, I read your paragraph that I snipped as an oblique flame of the OP. Attacking and flaming other members, whatever your differences or opinion's of that member is not on, even here in Bedlam & OTB. That is why you have ignore and report buttons.

Now, maybe back to the topic?

I have modified, or softened my position on some issues after reading posts by some quite bright, insightful posters. I am less hard-line as I use to be, but that also comes with age.

I didn't even think there was anything to even flame in this thread. "Have your opinions been changed or not" isn't very incendiary IMO. I've watched some of Alex's videos out of trying to be more open-minded. They didn't change my mind (I don't trust Italian Communist documentary directors anymore than they would probably trust me) but at least I gave it a shot.

One reason that maybe my mind hasn't been changed often is because I'm always right. OK, that just kidding. I think the reason is that more often than not people I'm "debating" with don't try to offer any "proof" or logic to their thinking. As I have posted before, for the most part they don't like answering questions. Perhaps if good answers were given then my mind could be changed. But someone constantly avoiding an answer just leads a person to believe that they are in fact right.

I didn't even think there was anything to even flame in this thread. "Have your opinions been changed or not" isn't very incendiary IMO. I've watched some of Alex's videos out of trying to be more open-minded. They didn't change my mind (I don't trust Italian Communist documentary directors anymore than they would probably trust me) but at least I gave it a shot.

One reason that maybe my mind hasn't been changed often is because I'm always right. OK, that just kidding. I think the reason is that more often than not people I'm "debating" with don't try to offer any "proof" or logic to their thinking. As I have posted before, for the most part they don't like answering questions. Perhaps if good answers were given then my mind could be changed. But someone constantly avoiding an answer just leads a person to believe that they are in fact right.

Perhaps you are asking the wrong question, but more likely your question is skewed....(such as "do you still beat your wife?), or the answer is patently obvious and doesn't deserve the effort of clarifying.

I think both sides to this forum's debates avoid answers at times.

Perhaps you are asking the wrong question, but more likely your question is skewed....(such as "do you still beat your wife?), or the answer is patently obvious and doesn't deserve the effort of clarifying.

No, not even close. I remember once you were offended by someone calling attractive women "foxes". I asked you how you would refer to them and you refused to answer because you said I was trying to "trick you" or something like that. There have been other questions of course involving issues such as Israel or Afghanistan, the fox one was just the first to pop into my head because your behaviour was so bizzare. Anyway, as a result I still call a beautiful woman a fox so that exchange of information did nothing to change my mind.

Here's a twist to the OP, can anyone remember a time here when they gave someone indisputable (or so they thought) evidence and the other person still refused to change their position?

Yes I do - more than once - and the poster in question just kept denying the obvious and still goes around refering to everyone he disagrees with as a "liar".

Perhaps you are asking the wrong question, but more likely your question is skewed....(such as "do you still beat your wife?), or the answer is patently obvious and doesn't deserve the effort of clarifying.

No, not even close. I remember once you were offended by someone calling attractive women "foxes". I asked you how you would refer to them and you refused to answer because you said I was trying to "trick you" or something like that. There have been other questions of course involving issues such as Israel or Afghanistan, the fox one was just the first to pop into my head because your behaviour was so bizzare. Anyway, as a result I still call a beautiful woman a fox so that exchange of information did nothing to change my mind.

Here's a twist to the OP, can anyone remember a time here when they gave someone indisputable (or so they thought) evidence and the other person still refused to change their position?

With regard to your last question, I provided a number of links to prove my point on an issue and the opposing party simply ignored them and went merrily along his way.

I, too have had some trouble getting answers to my questions. Some people simply will not answer if they feel the least bit threatened by the question. It's as if they are afraid of being trapped.

As far as changing my position, I cannot recall changing a position without solid proof, and I have seen darn little solid proof from the opposition party.

I didn't even think there was anything to even flame in this thread. "Have your opinions been changed or not" isn't very incendiary IMO. I've watched some of Alex's videos out of trying to be more open-minded. They didn't change my mind (I don't trust Italian Communist documentary directors anymore than they would probably trust me) but at least I gave it a shot.

One reason that maybe my mind hasn't been changed often is because I'm always right. OK, that just kidding. I think the reason is that more often than not people I'm "debating" with don't try to offer any "proof" or logic to their thinking. As I have posted before, for the most part they don't like answering questions. Perhaps if good answers were given then my mind could be changed. But someone constantly avoiding an answer just leads a person to believe that they are in fact right.

Could you tell us which clips or documents you actually looked at that I mentioned other than the Italian communist video that allegedly showed victims of WP munitions ( I already said it was questionable).

I remember mentioning: The age of the self, have you looked at it?

Have you read the book (Confessions of a economic hitman) that you downloaded as you said?

Have you looked into international law?

Have you looked into treaties signed?

I have shown some proof but most of you decide it is against your beliefs so it is not true.

Your question therefore is futile.

Your perception of truth is fueled by your beliefs/experience/indoctrination and you do not allow any other even when backed up by evidence.

And this is for a few others here as well.

OTB supposed to be a place where we can exchange different views on current and past events without prejudice, apparently some people have their minds made up and are not open to anything besides what the MSM has told them.

Alex

I didn't even think there was anything to even flame in this thread. "Have your opinions been changed or not" isn't very incendiary IMO. I've watched some of Alex's videos out of trying to be more open-minded. They didn't change my mind (I don't trust Italian Communist documentary directors anymore than they would probably trust me) but at least I gave it a shot.

One reason that maybe my mind hasn't been changed often is because I'm always right. OK, that just kidding. I think the reason is that more often than not people I'm "debating" with don't try to offer any "proof" or logic to their thinking. As I have posted before, for the most part they don't like answering questions. Perhaps if good answers were given then my mind could be changed. But someone constantly avoiding an answer just leads a person to believe that they are in fact right.

Could you tell us which clips or documents you actually looked at that I mentioned other than the Italian communist video that allegedly showed victims of WP munitions ( I already said it was questionable).

I remember mentioning: The age of the self, have you looked at it?

Have you read the book (Confessions of a economic hitman) that you downloaded as you said?

Have you looked into international law?

Have you looked into treaties signed?

I have shown some proof but most of you decide it is against your beliefs so it is not true.

Your question therefore is futile.

Your perception of truth is fueled by your beliefs/experience/indoctrination and you do not allow any other even when backed up by evidence.

And this is for a few others here as well.

OTB supposed to be a place where we can exchange different views on current and past events without prejudice, apparently some people have their minds made up and are not open to anything besides what the MSM has told them.

Alex

Have I watched all of your video links? No. No one - including yourself - is going to spend hours watching every video someone posts. I won't ESPECIALLY when they have the reputation of a conspiracy nut. Sorry. After I spent 30 minutes watching propaganda produced by Italian Commies I decided that was enough.

Have I read treaties? Have I read international law?? That's what you call proof? Why don't you just post the parts you are talking about and to what issue they pertain to?

Is it safe to assume you are talking about the Iraq & Afghanistan wars? I have in fact read the cease fire agreement to the Gulf War. Saddam had violated the terms numerous times which is well documented. THEY broke the terms so military action was perfectly legal. With Afghanistan, I guess just about every country is breaking the law in that one. Almost like anarchy - I would think you'd be over-joyed at the idea. Granted, a Dutch or Kiwi jury might disagree but you can't pleasae everyone.

Have I read that book that I actually downloaded, the Economic Hitman? No. I did read reviews however and most were that his claims were unsubstantiated. Enough bad reviews convinced me not to waste my time. Hey, how about that? They changed my mind! I had planned to read it, I even downloaded it (poor sucker missed out on his royalty check) but I read some reviews that others posted and I changed my mind. There might be hope for me yet.

You remind me of the anti-establishment, non-conformist hippies of the old days. To be a non-conformist you had to drop out of society and then dress alike, look alike, talk alike, smell alike, listen to the same music, smoke someone else's weed - BUT it's the OTHER people who can't think for themselves.

I have modified, or softened my position on some issues after reading posts by some quite bright, insightful posters. I am less hard-line as I use to be, but that also comes with age.

That is pretty much my point of view as well. I let others do the research, but I tend to go with human nature that I know a lot about. I've certainly learned a lot by other's mistakes.

I have shown some proof

That's a good one!

You remind me of the anti-establishment, non-conformist hippies of the old days. To be a non-conformist you had to drop out of society and then dress alike, look alike, talk alike, smell alike, listen to the same music, smoke someone else's weed - BUT it's the OTHER people who can't think for themselves.

Exactly, the lemmings calling everyone else sheep.

Because threads have a tendency to degenerate into petty bickering and cock waving I rarely bother after the first few pages, so my answer would be no.

"cock waving".... I haven't heard that one before. It's better than "pissing contest". I like it.

I didn't even think there was anything to even flame in this thread. "Have your opinions been changed or not" isn't very incendiary IMO. I've watched some of Alex's videos out of trying to be more open-minded. They didn't change my mind (I don't trust Italian Communist documentary directors anymore than they would probably trust me) but at least I gave it a shot.

One reason that maybe my mind hasn't been changed often is because I'm always right. OK, that just kidding. I think the reason is that more often than not people I'm "debating" with don't try to offer any "proof" or logic to their thinking. As I have posted before, for the most part they don't like answering questions. Perhaps if good answers were given then my mind could be changed. But someone constantly avoiding an answer just leads a person to believe that they are in fact right.

Could you tell us which clips or documents you actually looked at that I mentioned other than the Italian communist video that allegedly showed victims of WP munitions ( I already said it was questionable).

I remember mentioning: The age of the self, have you looked at it?

Have you read the book (Confessions of a economic hitman) that you downloaded as you said?

Have you looked into international law?

Have you looked into treaties signed?

I have shown some proof but most of you decide it is against your beliefs so it is not true.

Your question therefore is futile.

Your perception of truth is fueled by your beliefs/experience/indoctrination and you do not allow any other even when backed up by evidence.

And this is for a few others here as well.

OTB supposed to be a place where we can exchange different views on current and past events without prejudice, apparently some people have their minds made up and are not open to anything besides what the MSM has told them.

Alex

Have I watched all of your video links? No. No one - including yourself - is going to spend hours watching every video someone posts. I won't ESPECIALLY when they have the reputation of a conspiracy nut. Sorry. After I spent 30 minutes watching propaganda produced by Italian Commies I decided that was enough.

So you admit not having to looked at any of my video links except the link I provided to a doc that you say is Communist propaganda?

Have I read treaties? Have I read international law?? That's what you call proof? Why don't you just post the parts you are talking about and to what issue they pertain to?

I have posted parts of the laws and treaties that are relevant, you choose to ignore them.

Is it safe to assume you are talking about the Iraq & Afghanistan wars? I have in fact read the cease fire agreement to the Gulf War. Saddam had violated the terms numerous times which is well documented. THEY broke the terms so military action was perfectly legal. With Afghanistan, I guess just about every country is breaking the law in that one. Almost like anarchy - I would think you'd be over-joyed at the idea. Granted, a Dutch or Kiwi jury might disagree but you can't pleasae everyone.

Let me ask you one thing, If I point a gun at you and shoot you in the arm and you take your gun and shoot me in the chest, what is it called?

If I point a gun at you and shoot you in the arm and 3 weeks later you shoot me in the chest, what is it called?

Have I read that book that I actually downloaded, the Economic Hitman? No. I did read reviews however and most were that his claims were unsubstantiated. Enough bad reviews convinced me not to waste my time. Hey, how about that? They changed my mind! I had planned to read it, I even downloaded it (poor sucker missed out on his royalty check) but I read some reviews that others posted and I changed my mind. There might be hope for me yet.

So you believe others opinion above your own?

You remind me of the anti-establishment, non-conformist hippies of the old days. To be a non-conformist you had to drop out of society and then dress alike, look alike, talk alike, smell alike, listen to the same music, smoke someone else's weed - BUT it's the OTHER people who can't think for themselves.

Sorry, not sure what you mean by that.

You remind me of the anti-establishment, non-conformist hippies of the old days. To be a non-conformist you had to drop out of society and then dress alike, look alike, talk alike, smell alike, listen to the same music, smoke someone else's weed - BUT it's the OTHER people who can't think for themselves.

Sorry, not sure what you mean by that.

That is painfully obvious.

Maybe this changes the mind of dear Chuck a little?

They also said that there were WMDs in Iran, but you don't accept that. They are not always right.

Of course Israel has nukes!! (And I don't blame them for it! You have got to be mental to live anywhere near there... I guess it may be better than Russia though)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordechai_Vanunu

http://www.serve.com/vanunu/dimona/pix.html

I think that they have then and probably so does chuckd, but none of us knows it for sure. It could be another of those big right-wing conspiracies and they are actually fooling everybody.

I think that they have then and probably so does chuckd, but none of us knows it for sure. It could be another of those big right-wing conspiracies and they are actually fooling everybody.

Saddam fooled his neighbors and even his own Republican Guard into thinking he had WMDs. That turned out to be the mother of all miscalculations.

Exactly!

Ah well, we will probably find out soon enough... dah duh dah!

Mini nukes headed for Eyran ... coming soon... they have the 'green light'

For the record, i think the Iranians are F****** nuts. They dont have oil refineries... hence the 'need' for atomic power.

Asking for a kicking... sadly.

Even the Chinese and Russians are backing away from Iran now...

see: 3:18 seconds in.

Don't forget those that would welcome such a conflict which they believe would signal the return of Jesus.

The ultra fanatic Millennialist movement.

There are only about 20 of them, so I think we are safe.

Ah, not too many so we just dump them there when all hel_l breaks loose, they can have first row seats......