Thai Red-Shirts Leaders Will Surrender To Police May 15: Nattawut

[anotherpeter]

Question,

What do you all think of this??

BANGKOK: -- Despite claims to the contrary in CNN's Ireport section, we would like to reaffirm to all our readers and interested parties that all photos published in The Nation newspaper and The Nation's website - www.nationmultimedia.com www.nationmultimedia.com - as well as all other media outlets of Nation Multimedia Group, are genuine.

I think it's been done to death in another thread.

[Burr]

Yes But, what's the truth? Pictures don't lie (maybe)

[rixalex]

But when he was in power only a few years ago, I cannot recall reading such extreme views about him from Thai Visa posters. No-one was baying for his blood, or demanding his imprisonment

Now why is that? Seems to me that there are too many 'sheep' on this forum willing to accept the statements of an illegal, post-coup government.

Why is it that Thaksin's mouthpieces must hijack every thread with their "Thaksin was the best PM ever... The current government is not elected..." clap trap? These have been done to death on countless threads, and the facts are all counter to what the Thaksinistas would have us believe.

FACT: In any true democracy Thaksin would never have made it to PM. He would have failed the asset concealment case, he wouldn't have been able to buy his way to the job, and he wouldn't have been able to use his family connections to make his money in the first place.

FACT: Thaksin was responsible for the murder of over 3,000 people in his war on drugs, southern crackdowns and bird flu coverup.

FACT: Thaksin stole around 150 Billion baht from the Thai people while serving as PM.

FACT: Many people who spoke out against him either turned up dead, or never turned up at all.

FACT: Many more were sued for vast amounts of money.

FACT: Thaksin never won an election using new TRT candidates, both his victories were achieved by buying up the same old corrupt parties such as the NAP, which was the biggest single party prior to the TRT.

FACT: He couldn't even win the 2006 election, despite the TRT being the only major party involved, and despite cheating.

FACT: He resigned following the 2006 election debacle, then appointed himself as caretaker PM and resisted holding elections despite having no mandate at the time. He was not the elected PM at the time of the coup.

FACT: Thaksin appointed family members as head of the military and deputy head of the police.

FACT: In the 2007 election, more people voted for a party other than his proxy PTP than for it. The PTP was only able to form a government by forming a coalition with the minor parties, including the CTP, which itself had joined the boycot of the 2006 election and whose leader had stated that he wouldn't align with the PTP prior to the 2007 election. A vote for the CTP was not a proxy vote for the PTP. And, in terms of actual percentages, the Democrats got slightly more votes than the PTP.

FACT: Samak was kicked out for getting paid to host a cooking show, during which he spouted politics, and then lying about doing so. He could have been reinstated the next day, but Thaksin installed his own brother in law instead.

FACT: The Somchai government did not resign due to the PAD protests, but was dissolved by the courts. The EC has recommended that the Democrats also be dissolved, however no court ruling has yet been made.

FACT: The combined Samak and Somchai government was one of the most ineffectual the country has seen. It spent more time trying to change the constitution and get a pardon for Thaksin than actually ruling the country. It's most far reaching policies were to throw the Rohingya out of the country and to repatriate the Hmong, both of which were later jumped upon by the clueless anti Abhisit brigade in the mistaken belief that he had introduced them. (Along with where he was born, where he was educated, the eloquence with which he speaks and what he looks like, for some strange reason).

FACT: Neither the reds nor the PPP have ever come up with a manifesto, or even a list of what they would do if elections were held and they came out on top. Repeated rants about dissolving parliament now (every delay being an impediment to Thaksin's return) are not really credible policy of any opposition. They're not even sure who their leader is as well. Sure, we all know the man pulling the strings is the dear leader, but who would be PM? Chalerm? Chavalit? Jatuporn? Yingluk? Oak?

FACT: Every redshirt rally has been all about Thaksin. They rally to his call, avidly listen to his phone ins, openly take orders from him and take his money. Last Songkran it was all about his call for revolution. This year it was all about his asset freeze case. His own brother has stated that if the government talks to Thaksin the rally would be over immediately. Meanwhile he flies about like a cancer ridden red arsed fly, his family safely out of the country, his lieutenants sleeping in his hotel, while the poor duped out of town supporters sleep on the street, and the Bangkok based ones commute in and out for the free food and a cash payment.

FACT: Despite the main targets of the current shopping centre blockade being large organisations, those most affected by it are the employees, the small stall holders and all the other "lower class" people who make their living by working in Central World, Paragon, Siam, Central Chidlom and the other shops in the area. The only real inconvenience to the "elite" is making them go to Emporium, or overseas, in order to buy their luxury goods. Have the red leadership ever stated a reasonable purpose for their choice of location? Have the red leadership ever made a reasonable statement at all? "Dissolve now! We'll only negotiate if we get what we want before hand! 15 days!" The rabid chanting of a ship of fools can in no way be described as reasonable. And once the ship of fools sinks, as it will one way or another, many innocents will drown and the rats will come out fighting. Let's hope the army is prepared to exterminate them when they do.

BULL (WENG): The red shirt leaders will surrender to police on May 15th.

When we get down to actually spelling out the facts, as ballpoint has done here so well, all those who continually speak in favour of Thaksin's period as PM and dismiss the current government as useless and illegitimate, suddenly have nothing to say.

Edited April 18, 2010 by rixalex

[anotherpeter]

Yes But, what's the truth? Pictures don't lie (maybe)

One of the pictures is lying.

The Nation is trying to show that it is not theirs that is lying.

Now it's up to the source of the two shots together to provide some better evidence that their before shot is not the lie.

[scorecard]

you might be less angry if you read what I wrote. I know about Mr T. I was here when he dunnit, & was appalled by his murderous blunderings. I simply noted that legal action against him was no bar to an election. His party should be free to participate, unless you believe in guilt by association?

Since 'his party' freely and openly used his money / whatever money and resources to openly buy votes, then I don't see anything wrong at all with the party being punished. In fact I would like to see the election laws made even tougher for one simple reason, until Thailand gets a different breed of politics (sincere, genuine, capable, honest. And by saying capable I don't mean they should have a university degree), then Thailand will never move forward. If that means that the 'process' has to be changed to ensure that the current dishonest leeches and thieves with no morals and no intent whatever to develop Thailand for all Thais are sidelined then so be it.

Your diatribe against the Redshirts might be justified for all I know. I wasn't there. But neither do I take much notice of the local press, which is bought & paid for by vested interests, just like everywhere else in the 'free' world.

My objection is to the leaders of the red shirts, but let's take it point by point:

- Does Thailand need change? YES.

- What should that change look like? Well there's lot of points, but I suggest some factors of change would be: Raising the standard of living of the bottom socioeconomic sectors of Thai society, gaining a better spread of wealth for all Thais, better quality of education and workable policies which ensure all Thai children do actually get a good education, all leading to better opportunity for all Thais, policies which ensure that infrastructure development has a better spread across all of Thailand's geography, and more. All done by policy and process to ensure that change is real and solid and substantial, not by occasional (just at the right time) handouts which achieve nothing whatever long-term, and in reality are just vote buyers).

- Are the current red shirt leaders genuine? NO! Are they terrorists? well that depends on your definition, but they are ruthless and manipulating, have no hesitation to tell blatant lies / play doctored tapes etc., to manipulate their followers (incl. making statements in parliament which are blatant lies), try to muzzle and intimidate anybody who speaks out against them, etc etc etc. Their leaders encourage people to bring gasoline to Bangkok to 'burn Bangkok'. They are certainly not nice people and the bottom line is, "Would you like these people to be running ministries"? I certainly hope not.

Further, plenty of their followers are just there for money. As just one very small example, the food vendors in my soi (good food) are daily survivors. They are red shirts. Why? They will all openly tell you that they attend rallies for the cash hand-out and some will tell you they don't really understand what the aims of the rally are. Maybe 10 days back several of the vendors told my adult Thai son that they are attending every day to save money for the bus trip home and money to give to family for Songkran.

The red leaders claim to be democracy fighters (although they change their war-cry every few days) however not one of their leaders has ever spoken, made a presentation, taken part in a debate, nor distributed any materials to their followers about democracy, how it works, the processes, the pillars, what has to be protected at all costs to ensure strong democracy. They have made no attempt whatever in nearly 15 months of activity to do any of the above. They also claim they are against double standards, but their own diatribe is riddled with double standards.

Do they have a published detailed manifesto? NO! Nothing.

What is their purpose - they are just a smokescreen (and not a very good one) over their real aims; a pardon for a very corrupt man who had no hesitation to order and supervise the assassination of 2,500 fellow Thais and a return to the 2006 constitution which allows open corruption and vote buying with close to little punishment

I've met both Yellow & Redshirt supporters & find them as likeable as most Thais. I resent your side attempting to paint the Reds as 'terrorists', even if their rooting for Ole Squarehead baffles me. I hope what they really want is democracy, not him back.

Your support for the present government also baffles me. It cannot be considered legitimate in any true democratic sense. It got in after an armed coup & the subsequent quasi-legalistic jiggery-pokery. If you are so sure it has majority support, put your money where your mouth is & go for a free election – at least verbally - becos we farangs are mere observers.

Well I'm not going to explain it again, many others have already done so on this site. The government is legitimate and if you want to go down the road of claiming lack of legitimacy because of the 2006 coup then, if your genuine, you (and thaksin and the UDD redshirts) should be saying that the clock should be rolled back to the situation before the first ever coup.

There is little reason for the farang audience to get overexcited. Let there be peace & a free election. We might not like the result Charmonman, but the will of the majority must prevail. Vox populi, vox dei. If there is any doubt, get the ballot boxes out, not guns. OGT

You mention vox popoli, well that makes me laugh, thaksin tried hard to in fact intimidate the press, intimidate journalists etc. He ordered the Thai government controlled media to spin everything so that he looked good and the opposition looked like they were incredibly bad. A lot of what appeared on the government TV and radio was so blatantly twisted that it left people shocked. And the reds have been trying the same thing, just yesterday they lodged a petition with police to demand that the 'ant-dissolution' group be stopped from protesting.

A week ago on Silom Road, several people in the crowd held up a big placard opposing the reds. Several reds demanded they take it down under threat of violence.

A lot of good reasoning in this post. It is nice to see someone actually using his brain on here.

Suggest you think a bit more

[sausageandmash]

If only the PM had arrested all red shirts when this whole thing started (as they do very effectively in South Korea), we wouldn't be in the situation now.

It does seem that in Thailand, it's either a massacre or nothing at all. Surely there is a middle ground with firm but fair measures.

[scorecard]

If only the PM had arrested all red shirts when this whole thing started (as they do very effectively in South Korea), we wouldn't be in the situation now.

It does seem that in Thailand, it's either a massacre or nothing at all. Surely there is a middle ground with firm but fair measures.

Easy to say in hindsight.

I fact please share, what does it look like in South Korea?

Are protesting groups simply not allowed, or...

[OldgitTom]

Democracy is created at the ballot box (on the assumption it is a fair election), not by anarchy on the streets. While the current government may be criticised and corrupt, I support their stand. I also support democracy, but not this continuous red shirt campaign. There are laws, follow them, not break them.

Not so, terryfix; democracy was won by the blood of those who fought to get & defend it. It is always under attack from the privileged minority. No elite or authority hands democratic rights down from on high. Do you think a 'mob' is not a mob if it wears uniforms?

When the early pro-democracy protesters took to the streets of Queen Victoria's London, her head enforcer, the Duke of Wellington, described these ordinary citizens as "rotten to the core". That is the voice of 'authority'. Luckily for us, the pro-democracy 'mobs' won those early rounds. OGT

[warriorneedswarrior]

Didn't Arisman say he was going to surrender to police a couple of weeks ago?

question no 1: Anyone there to sue Police for not arresting these bustards ?I think POlice chief and Lumpini police station chief should

be be sued !

question no 2: Has anyone have any information on the state of Takkis updated health status - heard he was in ICU and flew thai doctors from Bkk - and have not heard for long now ! Is this guy dead or how many days left ?

question no 3.:Anyone tracking his son? do not underestimate him and also his daughters ! they also have dark influences on

these hired terrorists

[rabo]

Yes But, what's the truth? Pictures don't lie (maybe)

Here was my cut on it yesterday,

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Thai-Army-Pl...95#entry3515995

I wanted to know if the nation would really do that. This morning they published the original full resolution (big) image from their camera which pretty much proves it was an attempt to discredit the nation. The original "fake work" is on a Thai site at pantip.com. The reference is in my post.

[jdinasia]

Democracy is created at the ballot box (on the assumption it is a fair election), not by anarchy on the streets. While the current government may be criticised and corrupt, I support their stand. I also support democracy, but not this continuous red shirt campaign. There are laws, follow them, not break them.

Not so, terryfix; democracy was won by the blood of those who fought to get & defend it. It is always under attack from the privileged minority. No elite or authority hands democratic rights down from on high. Do you think a 'mob' is not a mob if it wears uniforms?

When the early pro-democracy protesters took to the streets of Queen Victoria's London, her head enforcer, the Duke of Wellington, described these ordinary citizens as "rotten to the core". That is the voice of 'authority'. Luckily for us, the pro-democracy 'mobs' won those early rounds. OGT

Hopefully for real democracy this incarnation of the red shirt movement will fail, When they start standing for democracy etc (after they get rid of Thaksin and the leadership) and start talking about the pillars of democracy and how they want to change the country other than returning the convicted felon Thaksin .....

[ballpoint]

- Does Thailand need change? YES.

- What should that change look like? Well there's lot of points, but I suggest some factors of change would be: Raising the standard of living of the bottom socioeconomic sectors of Thai society, gaining a better spread of wealth for all Thais, better quality of education and workable policies which ensure all Thai children do actually get a good education, all leading to better opportunity for all Thais, policies which ensure that infrastructure development has a better spread across all of Thailand's geography, and more. All done by policy and process to ensure that change is real and solid and substantial, not by occasional (just at the right time) handouts which achieve nothing whatever long-term, and in reality are just vote buyers).

I'm going to take the unusual step of saying the best way to get change is to stick with the status quo. If you look back at who the Isaan people have voted to represent them since the first elections following the end of the Prem administration, you'll find that it has continually been the same political groupings, families and proxies. We have a group of people who we are told is protesting to better their lives, who, whenever they have had the chance at the polling booths, have time and time again gone for the same cabals who are keeping them in the position they are in. Who seem to have chosen the quick buck in 1988, 1992 (twice), 1995, 1996, 2001, 2005, 2006 (although this one doesn't really count), and 2007, rather than the long term benefit of a new, non corrupt (if that's possible here) representative. Even during the two previous Democrat governments in the '90's, the Isaan MP's came from the NAP, CTP, NDP, SAP and others later absorbed by the TRT/PTP/PPP and CTPattana and BJT parties. They claim to want change, but every time that change has been in their hands they have chosen the same old corrupt people. Even when Thaksin came along with his supposedly new, fresh, politics, he realised that in order to get the votes in the Northeast he needed the old cabals on his side. The people have never chosen change. Supporting the reds will not give them change. The reds haven't even managed to come out with what they will do after/if parliament is dissolved. It's been often said that you get the government you deserve, and this seems an appropriate remark in these circumstances.

In my opinion, the best way to get change is to allow the current government to finish its term. Watch them closely for any corruption coverups. Evaluate what they manage to achieve. If satisfactory, then go for change at the next election by voting the Democrats' representatives in, and not the same old coalition partners. It's something that's never been done before. New people representing Isaan. Of course, I don't think this would ever happen, but it would be for the good of the country as a whole, and Isaan in particular, if it did. And for those who snort that this would just be a continuation of the current "elitist" system, I say the current "elitist" system has been in place for decades. Over which period the common denominator has been the rotten old cabals, the Newins, the Banharns, the Chavalits, the Chalerms. A red win, accompanied or not by the return of Thaksin, would certainly see a return of these same old players to government. A true Democrat win, with no reliance on these as coalition partners, would definitely bring a huge change to Thai politics.

As I posted on another thread, many people in Isaan, or my part of it at least, have managed to make a better life for themselves. Where do you think the growing middle class came, and continues to come, from? They have studied hard and worked hard to get out. I know for a fact that some of these people, and am guessing that the majority of them, do not appreciate having their livelihoods destroyed by the current protests. I know for a fact that some see the influx of people from the country, people who have been quite happy to sit back and take the money every election rather than get off their <deleted> and actually start changing their own circumstances, in a very negative light. I know for a fact that some of these protestors from the country, and probably most of them, have taken money to be there - in effect carrying on their fast buck rather than any real political freedom mentality. I also know for a fact that some of these people also took money from the PAD to be in their protests, thus showing exactly what their motivation for being there really is. Call me cynical, but it's difficult to be convinced that a group of people led by a self appointed bunch who refused to even discuss the negotiations made with the government with their followers, let alone put them to a vote, and who themselves have never shown any inclination to bring about improvement to their lives by use of the ballot box, are out there because of democracy or their beliefs.

[brahmburgers]

I'm going to take the unusual step of saying the best way to get change is to stick with the status quo. If you look back at who the Isaan people have voted to represent them since the first elections following the end of the Prem administration, you'll find that it has continually been the same political groupings, families and proxies. (posting clipped for brevity......)

In my opinion, the best way to get change is to allow the current government to finish its term.

Thanks ballpoint for adding some historical perspective. Though I don't reside in the NE, all you say applies to some degree to northern Thailand and is believable. Interesting to note that some folks have taken money from the Yellows, and then from the Reds - to show up at demonstrations. Also entirely believable. As long as there are big shots paying protesters, it will be a lure for folks who can't make as much money doing mundane things like farming and shopkeeping - if they're lucky enough to have a job at all.

I also agree that the current gov't, even with its warts, should run full term. It's sad that Thailand has a dearth of leadership material, or perhaps those with the requisite qualities of wisdom, compassion, alacrity are staying clear of politics because it puts them too much in the firing line. Plus, besides the rule which mandates no one without a U degree can be a candidate, it's probably disheartening (for the bright young would-be leaders) to have to go up against the entrenched political/rich families who dominate the sad state of affairs known as Thai politics.

[OldgitTom]

Brahmburgers,

‘I'm going to take the unusual step of saying the best way to get change is to stick with the status quo. If you look back at who the Isaan people have voted to represent them since the first elections following the end of the Prem administration, you'll find that it has continually been the same political groupings, families and proxies. (posting clipped for brevity......)’

Jesus wept! What ignorant, redneck rant! Is there no end to farang arrogance & abject stupidity? <deleted> are you to judge the voting choices of the people of Isaan? Are you really claiming to know better than them? YOU think the Yellowshirts of the Bangkok Bandit elite are a better option than the Redshirts’ candidates?

In the context of Thai democracy, who gives a flying duck what you or any other farang thinks? This is a choice for the Thai people. Ignorant farang arrogance, prejudice & stupidity aside, the ISSUE is who gets the mostest Thai votes: finish! Peace & legality can be restored by the announcement of a free election.

Tough if the your favored Yellows get trounced. Chew on it. Sad if you & your fellow elephants have to pay more for your beer & sex. Democracy is long-term the most nourishing diet. It brings legality, peace, justice & order. There is no farang substitute, despite the payments from Uncle Sam to the big, fat guys in uniforms covered with medals. OGT

[jdinasia]

Nice OGT ---- now corruption, cronyism, etc is your idea of democracy! You'll fit in quite nicely with the reds.

[commons]

Brahmburgers,

‘I'm going to take the unusual step of saying the best way to get change is to stick with the status quo. If you look back at who the Isaan people have voted to represent them since the first elections following the end of the Prem administration, you'll find that it has continually been the same political groupings, families and proxies. (posting clipped for brevity......)’

Jesus wept! What ignorant, redneck rant! Is there no end to farang arrogance & abject stupidity? <deleted> are you to judge the voting choices of the people of Isaan? Are you really claiming to know better than them? YOU think the Yellowshirts of the Bangkok Bandit elite are a better option than the Redshirts’ candidates?

In the context of Thai democracy, who gives a flying duck what you or any other farang thinks? This is a choice for the Thai people. Ignorant farang arrogance, prejudice & stupidity aside, the ISSUE is who gets the mostest Thai votes: finish! Peace & legality can be restored by the announcement of a free election.

Tough if the your favored Yellows get trounced. Chew on it. Sad if you & your fellow elephants have to pay more for your beer & sex. Democracy is long-term the most nourishing diet. It brings legality, peace, justice & order. There is no farang substitute, despite the payments from Uncle Sam to the big, fat guys in uniforms covered with medals. OGT

1) brahmburgers says, "If you look back at who the Isaan people have voted to represent them since the first elections following the end of the Prem administration, you'll find that it has continually been the same political groupings, families and proxies."

you don't even counter that statement. may i ask you - you ever heard anything about something called "kreng jai"?

do you want to _deny_ that "village folk", since decades, actually "vote" for their regional oppressors?

*

2) i cut your rant, ok. you say, " Peace & legality can be restored by the announcement of a free election."

first of all, again, i ask the same question i ask again & again & again: _how comes_ you people are so _obsessed_ with "calling a new election?" how comes that's the only statement?

i tried to explain before, elections are an ingredient of democracy. but to reduce democracy to elections is... let me call it, handicapped in visions & understanding, ok?

also, Abhisit gov entered public negotiations with a mob. something that never had happened before in thailand. there were 2 rounds of talks. Abhisit gov offered a house dissolution in 9 months - it's negotiations, so that's the _first_ offer before bargaining, right? further negotiations were ruled out - by whom? instead we had an increase in intimidation, hate spin, etc etc etc

*

3) you say, "YOU think the Yellowshirts of the Bangkok Bandit elite are a better option than the Redshirts’ candidates? "

which red-shirt candidates?

what is the policy platform?

*

calm down

[brahmburgers]

Woe is me, I'm getting credited with pearls of wisdom uttered by Ballpoint.

Try to get your rants aimed at the right culprit, thanks.

And to OldgitTom: whew, you've got a lot of piss and vinegar to release. Just to take one of your missives

who gives a flying duck what you or any other farang thinks?

You apparently give a flying duck, or else you wouldn't get so bent out of shape (though you still attributed someone else's words to me, but that's ok, because I agree with ballpoint).

I've been involved with Thailand for a quarter century, longer than most Thais now living, though admittedly, I'll never be able to vote, I can still discuss things with my Thai friends. I can still write letters to Thai newspapers (over 600 published thus far) and can still harbor opinions, thank you very much - even if they don't dovetail with the opinions of other farang. Mellow out, dude.

BTW, Thais v. much care what farang think, particularly if those who are involved with tourism - which is Thailand's biggest earner of outside money. If farang turn off to Thailand as a place to visit or reside, then that affects many Thais' pocketbooks. There are other reasons, but just wanted to mention that one.

Edited April 18, 2010 by brahmburgers

[ballpoint]

Brahmburgers,

'I'm going to take the unusual step of saying the best way to get change is to stick with the status quo. If you look back at who the Isaan people have voted to represent them since the first elections following the end of the Prem administration, you'll find that it has continually been the same political groupings, families and proxies. (posting clipped for brevity......)'

Jesus wept! What ignorant, redneck rant! Is there no end to farang arrogance & abject stupidity? <deleted> are you to judge the voting choices of the people of Isaan? Are you really claiming to know better than them? YOU think the Yellowshirts of the Bangkok Bandit elite are a better option than the Redshirts' candidates?

In the context of Thai democracy, who gives a flying duck what you or any other farang thinks? This is a choice for the Thai people. Ignorant farang arrogance, prejudice & stupidity aside, the ISSUE is who gets the mostest Thai votes: finish! Peace & legality can be restored by the announcement of a free election.

Tough if the your favored Yellows get trounced. Chew on it. Sad if you & your fellow elephants have to pay more for your beer & sex. Democracy is long-term the most nourishing diet. It brings legality, peace, justice & order. There is no farang substitute, despite the payments from Uncle Sam to the big, fat guys in uniforms covered with medals. OGT

And yet again one of the red posters has chosen to attack the (wrong) poster rather than try and refute any of the statements made. I really wonder just why so many of you have to make this so personal? And the biggest irony is that after spitting all that vitriol and venom against who said it, rather than what was said, you include the statement "who gives a flying duck what you or any other farang thinks?" Someone obviously gives enough of a duck to take the time to post the attack. Just what's in it for you, and all the other red posters who do the same, that you feel the need to wade in with a hate filled response that does nothing at all to counter the post I made, which was a mixture of facts and opinion, each clearly defined as such, and with reasons for that opinion? It's almost as if it's something personal to you.

I have challenged a statement made by you on this thread previously, still waiting for an answer. I'm now adding the challenge to refute what I posted with some facts.

[cheguevara]

Well, the government can't seem to arrest the red shirt leaders on their own ..and there's a solution. Dissolve parliament and they will turn themselves in. Problem solved!

[Trouble]

The continuous bickering over whether the red shirts or the yellow shirts represent the majority is really a joke. Most on this forum seem to have taken sides in the argument. It seems to matter little what is fair. Those who support the yellow shirts are in denial about how Abisit's party came to power and he became prime minister. It was thru a military coup, demonstrations, questionable court rulings removing politicians from the red shirt side, etc. That would in itself be a reason for elections to level the playing field, but those supporting the yellow shirts really don't want elections for fear the outcome does not go their way. Certainly those of you supporting Abisit can't claim there is no corruption in the current governemnt. Calling all the red shirt supporters paid supporters of Taksin and terrorists who have no right to call for elections is not completely fair either. In my view those on this forum supporting the red shirts seem to be supporting elections NOT necessarily Taksin. That is the dilemma for those here supporting the redshirts. I think most would agree that Taksin is history and should not muddy the waters of Thai politics any longer.

So the argument here on this forum seems to be between those who would like to dream of free and fair elections for Thailand and those who dislike Taksin and fear his return and are willing to support the status quo (yellow shirts).

I would assume that most members here would favor elections IF they thought it would bring about stability and acceptance of the outcome, either way, without Taksin in the picture. It is truely unfortunate that fair and honest elections, which is truely in the best interests of the country, are probably not possible at this point in time. If those of you who support the current government do not support free and fair elections because you can't accept an outcome you don't favor, then you are really nothing more that elitists thinking you know what is best for everyone else.

Again, I bring in the views of some Thai university students attending college in the US. Most do not like Taksin or the red shirts, but then they don't support the current government either. One student flat out told me that Thailand is not ready for democracy as we know it in the west. He feels the people in Thailand are not sophisticated enough to make election decisions. He would actually favor a stronger monachy under the current King, if he was younger.

So there you have it, maybe Thailand is not ready for democracy at all.

Free and fair elections were held in 2008 (?). As a result, the pro-Thaksin pro-red Pheua Thai party won more seats than any other party but not a majority. They governed under a coalition until the minority parties decided to leave that government and form a coalition with the second largest party the Democrats who formed the current government. One can argue about what was behind the engineering of this coalition but those who imply that the Democrats were appointed by the military seem to be missing an election cycle here. The Democrat leader has offered to dissolve parliament a year before the parliament' term ends, in nine months. Alternatively, the Pheua Thai could convince minority parties to once again join them and defeat the Democrat led government. Instead, the red shirts and thir supporters on this form and elsewhere would seem to prefer a political system wherein governments are perpetually dissolved by a procedure involving large mobs of people wearing certain colours of shirts close down major roads or airports.

Yes, maybe Thailand is not ready for democracy and neither are a large portion of the contributors to this forum!

You seem to feel that the process by which the current government came to power was completely above board and without fault. I guess that is a matter of opinion. Forget the farangs on this forum for a minute. The point is that a large number of Thais question the way things came about. It is not you and I who are going to solve anything. There is no right or wrong on this forum, only the reality in the streets. I am simply trying to point out what I feel is the view of many supporters of electons. Correct me if I am wrong but a coup is hardly the way to change governments. Even after that election there were court rulings disqualifing some of the elected representatives from participating and that helped to result in the reshuffling of the coalition. It might occur to some that the court rulings were not above board in that the courts in Thailand are not exactly independent. I think it was a result of this kind of action that has caused many to feel that the current coalition is not a true representation of the peoples vote in the "lawful" election after the coup. My point is simply that many feel they were cheated in actions starting with the coup.

To me it is not a matter of which side of the fence one is on, it is a matter of transparency in the process of selecting representatvies and forming a government. That transparency is felt my some not to exist. I am happy that there is a proposal on the table to hold earlier elections. Abisit must present his case to the people thru news conferences and get their support. He is doing a piss poor job in the public relations department in my opinion. The red shirts and the current govenment must negotiate a date for the elections. The red shirts need to give some too. My point is simply that neither side wants to risk loosing in elections and therefore both are reluctant to negotiate in good faith. They are still too far apart but no one seems to be talking. Hopefully there is talk going on behind the scene. I am not a supporter of one side or the other. I simply feel that when there is a dispute in the election process of significant magnitude then just maybe new elections are the way to stop the disruption in the society. Maybe the fault of parlimentary governments is the fact that it seems that coalitions must be formed making bargains along the way and then also they are just too easy to be dissolved. That is an issue for another debate. One must also remember that the yellow shirts were the ones that started mass demonstrations in the streets, occupation of the airport, etc. so it is difficult to say that it is the red shirts and their supporters that created a situation of mob action to dissolve a government. Both sides may be equally guilty of using that means to achieve their objectives.

According to my university friends, most of the talk on facebook and other networking sites seems to side with the fact that the old politicians of both sides should go. They are part of the old school of corrupt politics that needs to go. They want a new younger generation of people to enter politics which will be free of corrution and take the country in a new direction. Many favor Abisit because he seems to be young and relatively free of corruption but his party is full of the old corrupt political hacks.

[brahmburgers]

Well, the government can't seem to arrest the red shirt leaders on their own ..and there's a solution. Dissolve parliament and they will turn themselves in. Problem solved!

Naive. I ask: Name one promise the Red shirt leaders have honored. Name one statement, voiced by their leader and paymaster, which has proven to be true.

[OldgitTom]

Brahmburgers,

‘1) brahmburgers says, "If you look back at who the Isaan people have voted to represent them since the first elections following the end of the Prem administration, you'll find that it has continually been the same political groupings, families and proxies."

you don't even counter that statement. may i ask you - you ever heard anything about something called "kreng jai"?

do you want to _deny_ that "village folk", since decades, actually "vote" for their regional oppressors?’

You don’t get it. It’s not what I/you think, it’s what the ‘village folk’ think that counts. They perceive overwhelming that Mr T led a good government for them. You, I, & other farangs might deplore their naivety, but our views are irrelevant. In a real democracy the voters are allowed their illusions & mistakes. The hope is, they will learn by experience. They will never learn if their choices are removed by armed force. How many interventions in 70 years?

‘2) i cut your rant, ok. you say, " Peace & legality can be restored by the announcement of a free election."

first of all, again, i ask the same question i ask again & again & again: _how comes_ you people are so _obsessed_ with "calling a new election?" how comes that's the only statement?

i tried to explain before, elections are an ingredient of democracy. but to reduce democracy to elections is... let me call it, handicapped in visions & understanding, ok?

also, Abhisit gov entered public negotiations with a mob. something that never had happened before in thailand. there were 2 rounds of talks. Abhisit gov offered a house dissolution in 9 months - it's negotiations, so that's the _first_ offer before bargaining, right? further negotiations were ruled out - by whom? instead we had an increase in intimidation, hate spin, etc etc etc’

Democrats are ‘obsessed’ by free elections becos staging one would peacefully resolve this crisis & stop the bloodshed. I don’t reduce democracy to elections, just stick to what is immediately relevant. Abhisit can cheerfully ‘negotiate’, since talk costs him & his rich buddies nothing. Also, the violent approach applauded by so many farangs here has brought him embarassing international attention. The Redshirts are right to stick to their demands, since if they all went quietly home w/out satisfaction, it would be their defeat.

‘3) you say, "YOU think the Yellowshirts of the Bangkok Bandit elite are a better option than the Redshirts’ candidates? " which red-shirt candidates? what is the policy platform?’

Exactly! Mr T’s party has been effectively liquidated, leaving the ‘village folk’ feeling more screwed than before.

‘calm down’

Certainly; but please understand that riots in the streets are the result of blocking the will of the majority when it was expressed peacefully & lawfully. I hope that is not too hard to appreciate? Patronizing the voters by calling them backward, & ‘terrorists’ is, as I said, & repeat, arrogant & ignorant. They are not stupid. They know they suffer low incomes & poor social services. They know the Bangkok Bandits & their Yellowshirt apparatus don’t want to pay up. Mr T was a brutal & crooked opportunist, but they voted for someone who at least gave the appearance of doing something for them.

I don’t engage with Thai politics at all, just with the smug, well-heeled, conservative farang posters here who know nothing of Thai people or their hard history, & care even less.

Bar scene, midnight; the waitress looked about 14. She had fallen asleep over the table, while trying to do her homework. What hope have Thai kids like her? Bring out the guns to keep ‘em calmed down? OGT

[tonywebster]

Well, the government can't seem to arrest the red shirt leaders on their own ..and there's a solution. Dissolve parliament and they will turn themselves in. Problem solved!

Naive. I ask: Name one promise the Red shirt leaders have honored. Name one statement, voiced by their leader and paymaster, which has proven to be true.

That they will stay until parliament is dissolved

[rixalex]

Name one promise the Red shirt leaders have honored.

That they will stay until parliament is dissolved

One man's promise is another man's threat.

[rixalex]

Ignorant farang arrogance, prejudice & stupidity aside, the ISSUE is who gets the mostest Thai votes: finish! Peace & legality can be restored by the announcement of a free election.

Your second sentence confirms your first concerning farangs being ignorant.

Since when have there ever been free elections, and in the current climate of divisiveness and disruptions, what chance is there for having one now? Pretty much zero i would say. There will of course have to be elections at some stage, free or otherwise, but what advantage is there to allowing the country to be held at ransom by a tiny minority of the population on the streets, and giving in to their demands?

Aren't the reds simply mimicking the previous actions of the yellows that they claimed to deplore and claimed to be fighting against?

If the reds' answer to that is simply that the yellows did it so we will do the same, then they are acting like primary school children and should be treated as such.

As for your confident claim that elections will restore peace and legality, i can't help wondering where you have been for the last ten years or so. It surely can't have been Thailand.

[OldgitTom]

Rixalex,

‘Since when have there ever been free elections, and in the current climate of divisiveness and disruptions, what chance is there for having one now? Pretty much zero i would say.’

We’ve never had X before, therefore we never will have X. Not only pessimism & defeatism, but bent logic. Spoken like a true, blue conservative.

‘There will of course have to be elections at some stage, free or otherwise, but what advantage is there to allowing the country to be held at ransom by a tiny minority of the population on the streets, and giving in to their demands?’

Yeah, & long-term, we are all dead, the poorer the sooner. By pre-loading your own premiss, you supply your own desired answer - pretty much what Mr Abhisit is doing. He who arrived in power via tanks & guns now can pose as the representative of sweet reason, peace & legality. Nice one!

Like you, Abhisit will hold out against an election precisely becos he knows he & his Bangkok Bandit crew of skimmers-off-the-top are unlikely to win. They hated Mr T, becos he was a bigger & better crook than them, the dirty arriviste cad. But, to give in to popular demand is to make a move towards actual democracy – something Mr A & his crew will resist fiercely, & likely with more gunplay. Precisely as long as no election is held, the BBs & you can claim the Redshirts are an unrepresentative minority.

How representative of ordinary Thais is Mr Abhisit, flower of Eton & Oxbridge? How many khao pats does that kind of elite education cost?

I know probably as well as you that the rural poor will sell their votes. As far as my limited knowledge goes, all parties buy votes. I assume Mr T’s ‘boys’ pay better? Our difference is that I see the connection between lack of democracy & abundance of poverty, & you do not want to see it.

An election might be a significant step in the right direction – why you & Mr Abhisit will resist it, while hypocritically deploring the loss of life & street battles. The latter brought what little democracy that exists in Thailand & the world. They are signs of democracy’s emergence & vitality. They are frail signs of hope. God bless the Redshirts & poor Thais. Vox populi, vox dei. OGT

[traderjm]

Certainly; but please understand that riots in the streets are the result of blocking the will of the majority when it was expressed peacefully & lawfully. I hope that is not too hard to appreciate? Patronizing the voters by calling them backward, & ‘terrorists’ is, as I said, & repeat, arrogant & ignorant. They are not stupid. They know they suffer low incomes & poor social services. They know the Bangkok Bandits & their Yellowshirt apparatus don’t want to pay up. Mr T was a brutal & crooked opportunist, but they voted for someone who at least gave the appearance of doing something for them.

Therein lies the rub, too many people like you running around talking about what the majority wants when it fact the REDS are very much a minority when taken in the full context of the country. I don't get why people like yourself don't see or understand that FACT. The REDS and their supporters, have NEVER had a majority... period.

[rixalex]

'Since when have there ever been free elections, and in the current climate of divisiveness and disruptions, what chance is there for having one now? Pretty much zero i would say.'

We've never had X before, therefore we never will have X. Not only pessimism & defeatism, but bent logic. Spoken like a true, blue conservative.

It's not pessimism, it is realism. Nothing bent about the logic and how true blue conservatism comes into it, only you must know.

[rixalex]

He who arrived in power via tanks & guns now can pose as the representative of sweet reason, peace & legality. Nice one!

Complete nonsense. Abhisit arrived in power via tanks and guns no more than Samak or Somchai did before him. So where were you and the reds then? Not a peep did we hear.

[rixalex]

Like you, Abhisit will hold out against an election precisely becos he knows he & his Bangkok Bandit crew of skimmers-off-the-top are unlikely to win.

Yes i agree he is unlikely to win, as is it unlikely the PTP would win. In case you didn't notice, nobody won the last election. But whether or not he would win is neither here nor there in terms of calling an election. Newsflash: he is in power already. Even if he felt certain of a landslide victory, why go to the polls more than 18 months early, just because the opposition demand it?

"Because it might save lives" did i hear you say? So what if a political group took someone hostage and threatened to kill them unless elections were called. It's no different from the situation we are faced with now - a threat of violence to force the government into doing something against its will. I'm completely opposed to that, and that is regardless of who is in power. I have a hunch that you too would be opposed were it at the hands of the yellows.