I want a Mr. Boo!!!

I didn't realise I would open such a can of worms.

I am neither here nor there on the subject, I hope I don't get the blame for this

Regarding the title, I was just playing with the Man vs Wild show on TV, I didn't mean for it to actually become a Man vs Woman thing.

I actually found it amusing that this kind of debate is still going on, I mean it is obviously still a big factor in the world, I just didn't mean for it to be taken so seriously.

BTW Harcourt, i think Endure was actually making light of how bitchy being gay can be, ie if you think man vs woman is hard then you have no <deleted> idea how hard man vs man can be or similar. I dont think he was having a go at you mate.

sbk, reagarding the wages things, is that real? I hear about it all the time but I have never seen it. In my profesion people get paid according to thier job title.

I did meet a woman on my job once who complained about getting paid less than the men, but she was a secretary who got the job instead of a local as a favour to the boss. That was in Azerbaijan. Her role was actually supposed to cost the company about 10% of what she was getting. She ended up getting the sack BTW as she brought the office moral down. There are woman on my current job, and they earn the same as me, they do the same job as me.

I have always thought this woman get paid less in the same role as a man thing as a bit of an urban legend. If it is true, what industries does it happen in?

I want a Mr. Boo!!!

Trust me on this, I doubt it very much. Neither of us are easy personalities & I doubt either of us ever thought we would find someone who we could put up with & who could put up with us, for this long btu for some reason it works well enough so far.

It's a flipping miracle actually that we even found each other in the first place.

It's interesting to me when men seem to claim & perceive that women have some 'sexual advantage' over them. I'm not sure what this means, because as far as I'm aware women are quite sexual creatures as just as needy in that department (if you really know them well enough for them to express those needs as friends- which may be part of the problem here).

I mean, as a gay guy, I don't perceive other gay men as having 'sexual advantages' over me. Sex is just something people need to do and it's one of many reasons we need other people. When I've been in (semi) monogamous relationships, sometimes the sex with my partner wasn't going well- usually when the relationship itself wasn't going well. To get things back to the good point, we had to pay attention to the whole relationship, or give it up.

Speaking of sex in this way makes it sound to me as if many straight men perceive themselves to be in adversarial power relationships involving that sex. Maybe a self-fulfilling prophecy? It doesn't seem as if many women or gay men perceive reality in that way.

In any case, a good friend of mine once told me that sex is a pretty accurate reflection of self-esteem. Look honestly at what you're doing with yourself sexually (if you can!) and this is a mirror of what you think of yourself. Other people will also see you in that mirror and it will affect how they react to you.

Ultimately, it is about personal responsibility. If your partners don't satisfy your needs, you have to ask yourself why and figure it out- no one else can do that, and generally it's not your partners' responsibility to change themselves. Unfortunately, there is a huge lack of self-awareness in English-speaking society and it leads to a lot of tragically wasted time- which those who waste it must STILL claim responsibility for.

I want a Mr. Boo!!!

That is exactly what most men want, a Mr Boo of the female kind.

Just noticed that Mark is here...

Do you think this whole topic also changes per nationality?

I didn't realise I would open such a can of worms.

I am neither here nor there on the subject, I hope I don't get the blame for this

Regarding the title, I was just playing with the Man vs Wild show on TV, I didn't mean for it to actually become a Man vs Woman thing.

I actually found it amusing that this kind of debate is still going on, I mean it is obviously still a big factor in the world, I just didn't mean for it to be taken so seriously.

BTW Harcourt, i think Endure was actually making light of how bitchy being gay can be, ie if you think man vs woman is hard then you have no <deleted> idea how hard man vs man can be or similar. I dont think he was having a go at you mate.

sbk, reagarding the wages things, is that real? I hear about it all the time but I have never seen it. In my profesion people get paid according to thier job title.

I did meet a woman on my job once who complained about getting paid less than the men, but she was a secretary who got the job instead of a local as a favour to the boss. That was in Azerbaijan. Her role was actually supposed to cost the company about 10% of what she was getting. She ended up getting the sack BTW as she brought the office moral down. There are woman on my current job, and they earn the same as me, they do the same job as me.

I have always thought this woman get paid less in the same role as a man thing as a bit of an urban legend. If it is true, what industries does it happen in?

Well, if the US census is considered authoritative enough data for you, then no, its not an urban legend, never has been.

http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/censusandsta...paygapgrows.htm

Of course one of the arguments for the disparity is the fact that women take time off to have kids. So, I guess there could be two solutions for this. Stop having kids or stop punishing women for having kids.

It's interesting to me when men seem to claim & perceive that women have some 'sexual advantage' over them. I'm not sure what this means, because as far as I'm aware women are quite sexual creatures as just as needy in that department (if you really know them well enough for them to express those needs as friends- which may be part of the problem here).

I mean, as a gay guy, I don't perceive other gay men as having 'sexual advantages' over me. Sex is just something people need to do and it's one of many reasons we need other people. When I've been in (semi) monogamous relationships, sometimes the sex with my partner wasn't going well- usually when the relationship itself wasn't going well. To get things back to the good point, we had to pay attention to the whole relationship, or give it up.

Speaking of sex in this way makes it sound to me as if many straight men perceive themselves to be in adversarial power relationships involving that sex. Maybe a self-fulfilling prophecy? It doesn't seem as if many women or gay men perceive reality in that way.

In any case, a good friend of mine once told me that sex is a pretty accurate reflection of self-esteem. Look honestly at what you're doing with yourself sexually (if you can!) and this is a mirror of what you think of yourself. Other people will also see you in that mirror and it will affect how they react to you.

Ultimately, it is about personal responsibility. If your partners don't satisfy your needs, you have to ask yourself why and figure it out- no one else can do that, and generally it's not your partners' responsibility to change themselves. Unfortunately, there is a huge lack of self-awareness in English-speaking society and it leads to a lot of tragically wasted time- which those who waste it must STILL claim responsibility for.

I just gotta ask you I just wanna teach what you would know about women’s sexuality.

I think you would question me if I started prevaricating on male to male sexuality. I don’t know. I’ll try it in a few sentences and see.

Do you really expect a sane heterosexual male to agree that women have no sexual advantage over males?

Withholding sex is how women in civilized countries get stuff. In uncivilized countries there are laws against women withholding sex.

For this to work in civilized countries women have to make sure that getting sex outside of the primary relationship is difficult.

Why do you think there is so much hubbub about prostitution. Do you actually think heterosexual men want to outlaw prostitution?

Why do you think feminists are duty bound to bash men who come to Thailand? Because it removes the effectiveness of the withholding sex for stuff technique.

Heterosexual men separate and compartmentalize things like sex and feelings and being polite.

It doesn’t occur to most married men that sex is a privilege and not a right.

You see part of the sale is, “if you marry me we can have sex all the time.” It is not until after marriage that reality sets in. Sex is conditional sometimes by day, hour or minute depending on what is being negotiated.

I realize this is not the same with gay males. Gay male tops need sex regardless of whether they are trying to get something or not. Sometimes the top is the dominant in the relationship and sometimes the bottom but the bottom always has the upper hand in the relationship. (of course the last paragraph is nonsense I just wanted to get your take on me talking about gay sex in the same way you talk about straight sex.)

You suggest that women and gay men perceive sex in the same way. Are you talking about pitchers and catchers or both? Do they both perceive sex in the same way?

I hang out in a lot of gay bars because I date lesbians and it is my opinion that when gays talk about sex with woman they model women’s behavior. However the later the night gets the less similarities there are. When the male hormones kick in, if they are still active, the less that a gay males behavior resembles a female.

I think women are used to this adversarial behavior in men and use to their advantage. Hence I have never requested sex from a woman in Thailand (almost never). I always let them initiate the request.

Maybe this is really what you are saying. Maybe you too have discovered it is the key to an active sex life.

Equating sex and self esteem is a very narrow way of viewing the issue.

It is about many more things. How do you think Cleopatra’s self esteem was. She was the typical 14 year old Egyptian Queen dating a roman general.

How do you think Monica felt about Bill and cigars? How was her self esteem.

Sex is about a lot more than self esteem. It is about power, money and power and money and well lots of other stuff.

How does a women get self esteem? Is it in a rice field or working in a fast food joint?

I would imagine that woman with a masters degree, good job and happy healthy family has a better shot at high self esteem than a Cambodian rice farmer. Just a guess of course.

Now how did that women get a masters degree, good job and happy and healthy family. You think it was easy? First my wife told me she couldn’t have children so we didn’t use contraceptives and that was just the beginning. The schools, the study, the language training, the summers in Europe to establish networking connections. The Debut’s the parties the clothes the cars. Everything is carefully planned. The jobs the colleges the internships. The post graduate degrees and the big job in New York. Then the TV and radio appearances. The theatre and the singing and dancing lessons. There’s the house on the island and the five car garage.

It is hard work to have high self esteem but it is a lot easier if you are educated, talented and rich and have a clear goal in mind from the time you are born.

You think that softball playing lady from Harvard who will be a Supreme Court Justice has low self esteem?

Lets get real here. If your wife is getting what she wants you are getting sex. The key to getting good sex is getting a wife who you can provide what she wants. Be that a bowl of rice or a Rolls Royce. It doesn’t make any difference. That is what compatibility is all about. Two people who are giving the other what they want.

OK, how about from the other side of the coin? interested guys? Curious at all at what women go through or is it just easier to sit there and wring your hands and talk about how you are victimized by women?

Somehow I don't think you have any idea what its like to be a woman. The intimidation by alot of men as you walk down the street, getting stripped naked by someone's eyes on a regular basis, the catcalls. Its not that pleasant and not always welcome. And sometimes downright threatening. But then, if we dont' appreciate it we are hostile bitches and if we reciprocate with a smile we are either cockteases or welcoming further advances.

Or the guys who treat us like idiots because we are women? I recall one telling incident at the garage when I took my car in, guy at the counter talking to man in line in front of me has a normal conversation. Its my turn and he starts talking to me at the top of his voice. "Hello, I can hear you." He then proceeds to inform me that my mechanic is ripping me off (um, no. he's my dad's best friend) and refuses to listen to what I want done. When I insist i get the huffy woman tone "fine".

And then there were the flashers when I was 13. That was fun, Every pubescent girl likes to have men flashing their penises. It goes so far towards boosting our confidence. Then there was the peeping tom. I still keep my curtains tightly closed when I sleep. But, hey, I should enjoy the attention. right?

And shall we even go into the fact that in this day and age a woman still makes 79 cents for every dollar a man makes? Or that women of color make 68 cents? Or that even at the top corporate levels women CEO's still make 85% if what a male CEO makes?

Or how about the fact that 1/3 of all female murder victims in the US were murdered by an intimate partner? or that 600 women are raped or sexually assaulted every day in the US? On an international level WHO reports that up to 70% of women murder victims are killed by a partner? According to WHO one in 5 women will be a victim of rape or attempted rape at one point in her lifetime. 80% of refugees are women and children.

More than 135 million girls and women have undergone female genital mutilation and an additional 2 million girls and women are at risk each year (6,000 every day) (A, UN, 2002). 82 million girls who are now aged 10 to 17 will be married before their 18th birthday (UNFP).

There's more. Shall I continue? Would you like to hear about the fact that in the UK two women per week are murdered by partners?

or would you rather just sit there and talk about how sad your lives are, and how difficult it is for you that women are making strides towards being treated with the same respect and decency that you require?

Rant over

The other side of the other side. Short version. Wife number two worked for a large department store. She was a cosmetics line girl (Chanel, Este Lauder among others). She found out what time the chairman of the board of the company came to work every day. She arrived slightly before him and rode up on the escalator ahead of him wearing black nylons and garter belt daily. In 6 months she was the cosmetics buyer for 10 large department stores with frequent buying trips to Rome and Paris.

8 out of 10 of the worlds richest women got there by marriage. Working for a woman with no experience except bedroom management is a less than fun experience. I know I worked for a couple of them.

I think most of the abuses you mention like genital mutilation and uneducated woman or spousal rape and abuse are fostered by religion. And yet who is the largest group contributing to organized religion? Women over 50.

Men still have to pay child support for children fathered by someone else.

I will have nothing to do with a man who uses his strength or social position to demean a woman in any way. I think that is awful. I see some nasty things in Thai little boys and the way they treat little girls. But then I see the girls fight back most of the time but not all of the time. In the west I would smack the little boy brats but I don’t do it here.

But please realize that some men are confused by some women wanting to have it both ways. They want to be equal but retreat into femininity when equality is offered.

I’ll let you get on the lifeboat first. But don’t flip me off as I go down with the ship. 30 years ago chef’s in large respected restaurant and hotel operations were almost always men. I hired one of the first women to break the chef’s glass ceiling. I paid her big bucks and went to bat for her on a couple of occasions when she got into trouble. How did she repay me? She worked scam to get me fired and take my job. I trusted her. It was a mistake.

How many men, with the exception of those who post on Bedlam come to Thailand to find a feminist, new wave woman? Do western women have the ability to get over and through all the stereotypes to see what is the real driving reason why men are frustrated with the west and looking for alternatives? I want a girl, just like the girl who married dear old dad. Is it really a cliché?

There are a lot of people with issues of abuse and childhood things and they are not confined to women it is just not manly for a man to talk about them.

The pendulum swings back and forth. Now the judicial pendulum in western countries is swinging to the feminist side. But it is more like a Pandora’s box than a pendulum.

As a result of my personal experiences I don’t trust women. Don’t trust men either. I don’t trust people. So I think I am an equal opportunity non trusting person. I’ll give anyone the benefit of the doubt but I do expect to get screwed.

I’m not for women’s rights in every way. I think being for anything in every way is a flawed statement. I grew up knowing many powerful women. They made in a man’s world with no significant problems. One was a general in the Army another was a brothel owner who later became the mayor of Sausalito California and then my boss. I took her home nightly, undressed her and put her to bed, she was a drunk. She grabbed my ass every night. Dear old Sally she didn’t have many friends. Me and her dogs.

I’m not saying that women don’t get abused in third world countries by religious fanatics. I am saying that there aren’t many third world religious fanatics posting on Thai Visa.

So when you reel of your litany about abuses to the female gender why not and be cognizant of your audience. How many peeping toms or willie showers do you think you are talking to?

For every tale of female sadness there is a tale of male sadness especially among men who have made the long trek from the west to Thailand. It takes a lot of anger and hurt to pull up your roots and leave your family to move to Thailand looking for an alternative reality.

What I am saying is you have to be really upset. I think in most cases this anger or hurt is justified. I don’t think that fact is correctly dealt with by some people.

Can i upchuck now or later?

Marky; "....

But please realize that some men are confused by some women wanting to have it both ways......"

Not confused at all!!!! Many men LOVE it when she wants it both ways.

(Especially Greek men, apparently)

let rip Patsy

Projectile or in his handbag?

<deleted>, I had wriiten a whole spiel and one touch of the wrong key and it was all deleted. Crap.....I am so angry that there is no undo button....

The answer to your post is in the title.

"Vs"

It's not a competition.

I wonder if there is a bug in the new software? I can't get to read page 2 of this thread....so I'm replying in the hope that after I post, I'll end up on page 2.

<deleted>, I had wriiten a whole spiel and one touch of the wrong key and it was all deleted. Crap.....I am so angry that there is no undo button....

The answer to your post is in the title.

"Vs"

It's not a competition.

It shouldn't be a competition, agreed. And I don't think men treat it as a competition.

Nonetheless, men do seem to "come up against" female wiles. Why is that? Because women (some women) use those female wiles to their advantage. If women (some women) didn't use their wiles, this subject would not exist.

I wonder if there is a bug in the new software? I can't get to read page 2 of this thread....so I'm replying in the hope that after I post, I'll end up on page 2.

Double click the two

I wonder if there is a bug in the new software? I can't get to read page 2 of this thread....so I'm replying in the hope that after I post, I'll end up on page 2.

Double click the two

Probably a good thing, this topic seems to have pissed a few people off.

Serious and personal stuff mate.

All I will say is I hope you find peace soon enough.

Serious and personal stuff mate.

All I will say is I hope you find peace soon enough.

I have it mate, how can I not sitting by the pool in Bali?

I just posted this topic for a bit of fun. I didn't realise the ramifications when I posted it.

<deleted>, I had wriiten a whole spiel and one touch of the wrong key and it was all deleted. Crap.....I am so angry that there is no undo button....

ok, let me start again, but I am sure it will not be as eloquent as my original.

That has always been one of my main complaints about posting anything in Thailand forums. The connection shuts down for some unexplained reason and you lose everything you've written. It happens far less in North America and it isn't so frustrating. And, because of the type of program that thaivisa uses it is not so conducive to cut and paste from a separately written WORD document. If I intend to write anything of any length or detail I don't want to lose I usually write it separately in WORD and then cut and paste it here.

OK, how about from the other side of the coin? interested guys? Curious at all at what women go through or is it just easier to sit there and wring your hands and talk about how you are victimized by women?

Somehow I don't think you have any idea what its like to be a woman. The intimidation by alot of men as you walk down the street, getting stripped naked by someone's eyes on a regular basis, the catcalls. Its not that pleasant and not always welcome. And sometimes downright threatening. But then, if we dont' appreciate it we are hostile bitches and if we reciprocate with a smile we are either cockteases or welcoming further advances.

Or the guys who treat us like idiots because we are women? I recall one telling incident at the garage when I took my car in, guy at the counter talking to man in line in front of me has a normal conversation. Its my turn and he starts talking to me at the top of his voice. "Hello, I can hear you." He then proceeds to inform me that my mechanic is ripping me off (um, no. he's my dad's best friend) and refuses to listen to what I want done. When I insist i get the huffy woman tone "fine".

And then there were the flashers when I was 13. That was fun, Every pubescent girl likes to have men flashing their penises. It goes so far towards boosting our confidence. Then there was the peeping tom. I still keep my curtains tightly closed when I sleep. But, hey, I should enjoy the attention. right?

And shall we even go into the fact that in this day and age a woman still makes 79 cents for every dollar a man makes? Or that women of color make 68 cents? Or that even at the top corporate levels women CEO's still make 85% if what a male CEO makes?

Or how about the fact that 1/3 of all female murder victims in the US were murdered by an intimate partner? or that 600 women are raped or sexually assaulted every day in the US? On an international level WHO reports that up to 70% of women murder victims are killed by a partner? According to WHO one in 5 women will be a victim of rape or attempted rape at one point in her lifetime. 80% of refugees are women and children.

More than 135 million girls and women have undergone female genital mutilation and an additional 2 million girls and women are at risk each year (6,000 every day) (A, UN, 2002). 82 million girls who are now aged 10 to 17 will be married before their 18th birthday (UNFP).

There's more. Shall I continue? Would you like to hear about the fact that in the UK two women per week are murdered by partners?

or would you rather just sit there and talk about how sad your lives are, and how difficult it is for you that women are making strides towards being treated with the same respect and decency that you require?

Rant over

All valid points, sbk. Nobody can refute them. The evidence is all out there in statistics. I could add a bunch more on the same vein as well.

But, that is not what I think TUKY was alluding to. We humans are funny creatures and for every Ying there is a Yang. Many topics are offensive (or boring) to some people and not offensive to others. It is like watching a movie that has only ONE redeaming feature. That feature could be just a simple discussion or a "one liner" that made it worth while watching. It is the same with topics on this forum, or any other forum for that matter. Not everything is going to appeal to everyone. Unfortunately, as a moderator you have to read everything in order to maintain some semblance of order. And, in so doing a moderator could become jaded about similar topics cropping up all the time.

I've learned a lot about Thailand that I wouldn't otherwise have known other than by reading many topics on thaivisa. All you have to go by are personal experiences, and those life experiences tend to cloud one's mind if you don't have another perspective pointed out to you. It is VERY evident in all the relationship problems faced when farang males meet, fall in love and subsequently marry Thai women.