Didn't want to start a new thread for it....Looks like Obama just fired General McChrystal.

Petraeus in & McChrystal out & slapped down ....not even allowed into the strategy room to discuss change over

One country's freedom fighter is another country's terrorist. I don't know all the facts of any conflict so I seldom reply.

What I DO know is there is hate on both sides, and both sides try to justify their actions. There are horrific actions during any war. When you precipitate an action then you have to accept the consequences of that action. You can go back as far as you want in history to see what causes wars. And, what ALWAYS happens during a war and after a war.

If you go back to WELL BEFORE the start of the Second World War you will find out that the actions of other nations lead up to having a person like Hitler in power. Go to Viet Nam prior to that conflict. The South Vietnam leaders were involved in an illegal drug trade and didn't want to lose it to the North Vietnamese. They used the naive Americans, and their misguided hate for communism, as a platform to ge the Americans to do their dirty work for them. Unfortunately for the South Vietnamese leaders, they didn't care about the common people and there was not enough support within their own country to stop the North Vietnamese.

One country's freedom fighter is another country's terrorist. I don't know all the facts of any conflict so I seldom reply.

What I DO know is there is hate on both sides, and both sides try to justify their actions. There are horrific actions during any war. When you precipitate an action then you have to accept the consequences of that action. You can go back as far as you want in history to see what causes wars. And, what ALWAYS happens during a war and after a war.

If you go back to WELL BEFORE the start of the Second World War you will find out that the actions of other nations lead up to having a person like Hitler in power. Go to Viet Nam prior to that conflict. The South Vietnam leaders were involved in an illegal drug trade and didn't want to lose it to the North Vietnamese. They used the naive Americans, and their misguided hate for communism, as a platform to ge the Americans to do their dirty work for them. Unfortunately for the South Vietnamese leaders, they didn't care about the common people and there was not enough support within their own country to stop the North Vietnamese.

And who were the biggest customers of this illegal drug trade ?

Edited to say sorry Ian not getting at you but pretty sick of the " naive American " defence. There is power and money behind every naive American intervention and after the war is over, the naive Americans tend to do quite well in the country re-builds, or the bleeding dry of their former allies in the re-payments for arms and weapons crucial for winning, but certainly not made available free by " naive americans ".

And as for other nations actions bringing about Hitler !!! Well you may find a certain edict by a President Wilson sort of opened the door for what came after.

The USA does some great things for the world, no doubt about it. But It's constant taking the cream and then blaming others for the spilt milk, gets on my tits.

One country's freedom fighter is another country's terrorist. I don't know all the facts of any conflict so I seldom reply.

What I DO know is there is hate on both sides, and both sides try to justify their actions. There are horrific actions during any war. When you precipitate an action then you have to accept the consequences of that action. You can go back as far as you want in history to see what causes wars. And, what ALWAYS happens during a war and after a war.

If you go back to WELL BEFORE the start of the Second World War you will find out that the actions of other nations lead up to having a person like Hitler in power. Go to Viet Nam prior to that conflict. The South Vietnam leaders were involved in an illegal drug trade and didn't want to lose it to the North Vietnamese. They used the naive Americans, and their misguided hate for communism, as a platform to ge the Americans to do their dirty work for them. Unfortunately for the South Vietnamese leaders, they didn't care about the common people and there was not enough support within their own country to stop the North Vietnamese.

And who were the biggest customers of this illegal drug trade ?

Edited to say sorry Ian not getting at you but pretty sick of the " naive American " defence. There is power and money behind every naive American intervention and after the war is over, the naive Americans tend to do quite well in the country re-builds, or the bleeding dry of their former allies in the re-payments for arms and weapons crucial for winning, but certainly not made available free by " naive americans ".

And as for other nations actions bringing about Hitler !!! Well you may find a certain edict by a President Wilson sort of opened the door for what came after.

The USA does some great things for the world, no doubt about it. But It's constant taking the cream and then blaming others for the spilt milk, gets on my tits.

Yeah, Germany and Japan still haven't gotten over the Americans taking advantage of them in the aftermath of WWII. Will they ever make it out of the stone age? Not to mention the EU wouldn't even exist today if not for the Marshall Plan that rebuilt Western Europe after Europeans destroyed it themselves. The UK made its final loan repayment to the US a few years ago. They were hardly "bled dry".

Here is an interesting article from the BBC in 2006. It throws a little different light on the WWII debt...

______________________________________________________

What's a little debt between friends?

By Finlo Rohrer

BBC News Magazine

The UK is about to pay off the last of its World War II loans from the US. But it hasn't always been so fastidious.

On 31 December, the UK will make a payment of about $83m (£45.5m) to the US and so discharge the last of its loans from World War II from its transatlantic ally.

It is hard from a modern viewpoint to appreciate the astronomical costs and economic damage caused by this conflict. In 1945, Britain badly needed money to pay for reconstruction and also to import food for a nation worn down after years of rationing.

"In a nutshell, everything we got from America in World War II was free," says economic historian Professor Mark Harrison, of Warwick University.

______________________________________________________

Remainder of article here:

BBC NEWS | UK | Magazine | What's a little debt between friends?

The UK was bled dry financially and morally and remains bleeding to this day.

Do you honestly believe that Europe's rebuilding after both world wars did not help make the US the Industrial power house it is ( or was until recently ) ?

Look I'm not saying it's wrong but your post is again an example of " we ( the US ) did and do, everything good in this world and the rest of you just take advantage ".

I think the term" Isolationalism " was minted to cover these views.

We ( the Brits ) f%^^%d up royally in many parts of the world and did good in others. Our national characteristic has always been to play done the successes of our past and be almost apologetic for what we achieved. You as a nation ( and again I'm not saying it's all wrong ) have no such constraints. There are posts on this thread blaming the Brits for Afghanistan for %^^%^ sake. Alexander the Great had trouble there and we most certainly did, so when the evil empire rolled in for it's turn of humiliation, we in the main sat back and giggled. Not you guys. For once " free" weapons by the sack full poured into any war lords army who could stand up long enough to receive them. Never mind history which should have told anything individual that the tribal system in place from the time of the Greeks would kick in the second the bear left, never mind the religious complications that would surely follow. ( I enjoyed Charlie Wilson's war by the way ).

Now we the Brits did screw up Vietnam. Yes we did arm the Japanese again after the war to maintain law and order until the French came ( under instructions from who mmmmmmmm ) right royally pissing off the " Freedom " fighters wanting to end colonial rule. But we certainly did not shore up tin-pot regiemes ( well maybe Singapore ) in the region to put a brave face on fighting the " domino " theory. And we certainly did not behind the scenes acknowledge the rights of Chinese influence in the Region to off set tacit support against Russia, after one game of Ping Pong ( Ever wonder why a seemingly won war, post Tet, became suddenly unwinable ? Look up " Operation Motorman" In NI or ask Moss about it. Just like Tet, insurgency just about broken until good old politics arrives and back to square one ).

Please, I am not anti-american, even after all that's been said. However i do wish you lot would take the responsibility for a screw up once in while. Take Iraq for heavens sake ( someone take it ). In Outside the Box more than one good old boy still blames the Brits for that !! Did the US invade Iraq to right the wrongs of post WW1, Turkish empire breakup.........eh no. Will it now in whilst control split, the administration of the country into ethnic lines, the sole cause according to many good old boys of the troubles (of cause troubles made by the Brits ) ?.................Eh no.

Now I like Richard Nixon, I really do. His autobiography is an absolute gem and shows the mind of a very shrewd and canny man. His stated biggest failing in US diplomacy ? Not letting the Brtit/French/ israeli forces keep suez. Yes folks the only reason we in the West are held to ransom by many in the arab world in modern times boils down to oil and control of a little strip of water essential to its distribution. Bet you wish you hadn't held WW2 payments over the head of us to make us withdraw now eh ?

And as I'm ranting tell me there is not a hint of truth in this bit of fiction.

Two " Valley Girls"

" Hi Cindy, total bummmmmer last night"

" Oh my G-od, what happened "

" Gee I trod on the remote and MTV just disappeared, For sure i found out there is more than one station......."

" No way'

" Way !! There was this National Geo something programme which should horrid little farmers growing these awful crops they make into drugs. No dress sense at all "

" Totally gross, what did you do ? "

" Well I called dad and made him make the dirty people go away. He said these drug growing farmers should be wiped of the face of the earth and we are just the country to do it !!! "

" Wow totally awesome dude, kill them all '

" Yeh any way, are you going to Brad's party tonight, He's got some magic blow"

" giggle, For sure '.

The UK was bled dry financially and morally and remains bleeding to this day.

Do you honestly believe that Europe's rebuilding after both world wars did not help make the US the Industrial power house it is ( or was until recently ) ?

The US was an industrial power house for the first 2-3 decades after the war. By the 1970's Western Europe & Japan had newer more efficient factories (for steel, manufacturing, etc) mostly paid for by Uncle Sam while back in the US we were stuck with factories that had been around since the turn of the century. We didn't lose our edge, we gave it up.

The UK was bled dry financially and morally and remains bleeding to this day.

Do you honestly believe that Europe's rebuilding after both world wars did not help make the US the Industrial power house it is ( or was until recently ) ?

The US was an industrial power house for the first 2-3 decades after the war. By the 1970s Western Europe & Japan had newer more efficient factories (for steel, manufacturing, etc) mostly paid for by Uncle Sam while back in the US we were stuck with factories that had been around since the turn of the century. We didn't lose our edge, we gave it up.

Last bit from me I'm sure you've had enough.

I was brought up in the Industrial Midlands. the majority of the factories in "The Black Country" as it was lovingly called had machinery well into the1970s with Victorian date stamps on it before the companies were bought out in the main by US companies in the eighties and nineties , who broke them up and continued the process in the newly opening Eastern Block where labour was cheaper. large factories that took kids on apprenticeships such as Lucas and Goodyears closed their gates and headed for Poland. Much like your Detroit, the area is now a wasteland of broken dreams. We really benefitted from the war didn't we.

Yes folks the only reason we in the West are held to ransom by many in the arab world in modern times boils down to oil and control of a little strip of water essential to its distribution. Bet you wish you hadn't held WW2  payments over the head of us to make us withdraw now eh ?

I'll second that. However, most of us have nothing against the Brits other than the ones who keep reminding us of all the terrible things that we do. Can we help it if it is to easy to throw a little British Empire history in their face? 

The UK was bled dry financially and morally and remains bleeding to this day.

Do you honestly believe that Europe's rebuilding after both world wars did not help make the US the Industrial power house it is ( or was until recently ) ?

The US was an industrial power house for the first 2-3 decades after the war. By the 1970s Western Europe & Japan had newer more efficient factories (for steel, manufacturing, etc) mostly paid for by Uncle Sam while back in the US we were stuck with factories that had been around since the turn of the century. We didn't lose our edge, we gave it up.

Last bit from me I'm sure you've had enough.

I was brought up in the Industrial Midlands. the majority of the factories in "The Black Country" as it was lovingly called had machinery well into the1970s with Victorian date stamps on it before the companies were bought out in the main by US companies in the eighties and nineties , who broke them up and continued the process in the newly opening Eastern Block where labour was cheaper. large factories that took kids on apprenticeships such as Lucas and Goodyears closed their gates and headed for Poland. Much like your Detroit, the area is now a wasteland of broken dreams. We really benefitted from the war didn't we.

Sprechen Sie Deutsch?

The UK was bled dry financially and morally and remains bleeding to this day.

Do you honestly believe that Europe's rebuilding after both world wars did not help make the US the Industrial power house it is ( or was until recently ) ?

The US was an industrial power house for the first 2-3 decades after the war. By the 1970s Western Europe & Japan had newer more efficient factories (for steel, manufacturing, etc) mostly paid for by Uncle Sam while back in the US we were stuck with factories that had been around since the turn of the century. We didn't lose our edge, we gave it up.

Last bit from me I'm sure you've had enough.

I was brought up in the Industrial Midlands. the majority of the factories in "The Black Country" as it was lovingly called had machinery well into the1970s with Victorian date stamps on it before the companies were bought out in the main by US companies in the eighties and nineties , who broke them up and continued the process in the newly opening Eastern Block where labour was cheaper. large factories that took kids on apprenticeships such as Lucas and Goodyears closed their gates and headed for Poland. Much like your Detroit, the area is now a wasteland of broken dreams. We really benefitted from the war didn't we.

Sprechen Sie Deutsch?

Looking at the things that walk the streets of UK these days.................Don't tempt me to answer this

Right on target about building new factories in Europe and Japan especially the automotive industry in Japan.

Macarthur set up the economic dynamo that was Japan by allowing the monopolies to continue in banking and manufacturing. Far more efficient to have banks and manufactures cooperate.

Also the US patents ran out in Steel manufacturing and the tool and die industry so the rest of the world was brought up to the US standard quickly.

The other contributing factor in the demise of American industry was unions. From trucking to manufacturing. They wanted to get rich. Instead of modernizing factories the extra cash went into wages and pension funds.

At one point steelworkers had 13 weeks of paid vacation per year while the rest of the country averaged two weeks. Sweepers in steel mills made as much money as high school principals.

I was involved and listened to many discussions with tired business owners who said, “F*** it, lets move the factory.

They left the US and jobbed out whatever they couldn’t move.

I grew up in Detroit in the 40’s, 50’s and 60’s. Big cars, lots of money, we thought it would never end. I worked at the local Yacht Club and taught two of the Ford kids how to sail. Snotty little brats. Their father told me to tip the boat over and teach them how to right it. He also told me to make them do all the work on the boat. He wasn’t a nice guy but knew the value of hard work. If you crossed him he had you killed. Those were the days.

But we threw it all away. Detroit was a vibrant, alive city with beautiful homes, good schools and great neighborhoods. First came the race riots and then the factories leaving and then the steady degeneration of the whole state of Michigan.

Liberal politicians giving money away and conservative politicians stealing money. The combination took all the money away from the people who worked and made the money and gave it to the rich and the poor. The rich don’t pay taxes and the poor don’t pay taxes. It is the guy in the middle who supported everyone.

I would love to see a revolt of the middle class. But the liberals are too busy opening up borders to poor people from the world over to vote for more welfare measures. And conservative politicians are too busy starting wars to fill the coffers of the defense contractors they own.

So, what do you do? The old middle class men migrate to Thailand to enjoy their dotage among firm feeling women and looking for some decently tuned guitars.

( Ever wonder why a seemingly won war, post Tet, became suddenly unwinable ? Look up " Operation Motorman" In NI or ask Moss about it. Just like Tet, insurgency just about broken until good old politics arrives and back to square one ).

I'm kinda guessing they wont.

Ever wonder why a seemingly won war, post Tet, became suddenly unwinable ? 

The liberal press turned a military victory for the US into a propaganda victory for the the NVA  and the fashionable anti-war movement - that was mostly powered by youngsters trying to avoid military service - did the rest of the job.

I do not think that America should have been there in the first place, but once you place troops in harms way, you should at least try to win. 

In Australia the protests seemed to me to be more anti-conscription than anti-war.

I suspect that if the armed forces had been fully volunteer then the anti-war pressure on politicians would have been of a similar state that it is regarding Iraq/Afghanistan today. A side bar rather than on the front page.

One of the most memorable sights in my life occurred just after the start of the Falklands war.

Won't bore you with why, but I was passing through Newfoundland with a small bunch of military types. The local Consular official for the UK took me down to St John's to see something he found quite remarkable

I could not believe my eyes when we got there. In shitty weather a line of men as far as the eye could see, were lined up outside the door. A smattering of people in suits, but in the main a great number of " Grizzly Adams" types , fresh from the woods.

I asked him what the hel_l was going on. He replied as soon as the word got out that Britain was going to war, these backwoods men started to arrive and camp out to offer their services as their fathers and grandfathers had done before them.

Not even their country, however, honour and loyalty in some people runs deep.

One of the most memorable sights in my life occurred just after the start of the Falklands war.

Won't bore you with why, but I was passing through Newfoundland with a small bunch of military types. The local Consular official for the UK took me down to St John's to see something he found quite remarkable

I could not believe my eyes when we got there. In shitty weather a line of men as far as the eye could see, were lined up outside the door. A smattering of people in suits, but in the main a great number of " Grizzly Adams" types , fresh from the woods.

I asked him what the hel_l was going on. He replied as soon as the word got out that Britain was going to war, these backwoods men started to arrive and camp out to offer their services as their fathers and grandfathers had done before them.

Not even their country, however, honour and loyalty in some people runs deep.

Or the desire for a comparatively decent wage and 3 square meals, medical benefits thrown in?

But then, how many of those Grizzly Adamses had ever been exposed to forward thinking philosophies? You may be right that the desire to fight for Britain may have stemmed from an unthinking mindset.

One of the most memorable sights in my life occurred just after the start of the Falklands war.

Won't bore you with why, but I was passing through Newfoundland with a small bunch of military types. The local Consular official for the UK took me down to St John's to see something he found quite remarkable

I could not believe my eyes when we got there. In shitty weather a line of men as far as the eye could see, were lined up outside the door. A smattering of people in suits, but in the main a great number of " Grizzly Adams" types , fresh from the woods.

I asked him what the hel_l was going on. He replied as soon as the word got out that Britain was going to war, these backwoods men started to arrive and camp out to offer their services as their fathers and grandfathers had done before them.

Not even their country, however, honour and loyalty in some people runs deep.

Good story, Suiging. Thanks for sharing.

As you say, honour and loyalty in some people runs deep.

Sadly, though, some people who are not so deep tend to disparage those traits.

Good story, Suiging. Thanks for sharing.

As you say, honour and loyalty in some people runs deep.

I agree a tale worth the telling, and on the surface of it with the limited knowledge known to us, I think I would lend to think it was past loyalties rather than the benefits entailed.

Good story, Suiging. Thanks for sharing.

As you say, honour and loyalty in some people runs deep.

I agree a tale worth the telling, and on the surface of it with the limited knowledge known to us, I think I would lend to think it was past loyalties rather than the benefits entailed.

Sure. I wasn't being particularly cynical, but there is no doubt that many of the world's armies are manned by men from lower socio-economic backgrounds, with the associated lack of high education.

Armies need unthinking cannon fodder.

It is highly romantic to paint them as being motivated by loyalty, when to many of them, it is just a job that pays better and feeds them better than anything they could get in civvy street.

Just look at the red-shirt sympathisers in the Thai Army as an example

Good story, Suiging. Thanks for sharing.

As you say, honour and loyalty in some people runs deep.

I agree a tale worth the telling, and on the surface of it with the limited knowledge known to us, I think I would lend to think it was past loyalties rather than the benefits entailed.

Sure. I wasn't being particularly cynical, but there is no doubt that many of the world's armies are manned by men from lower socio-economic backgrounds, with the associated lack of high education.

Armies need unthinking cannon fodder.

It is highly romantic to paint them as being motivated by loyalty, when to many of them, it is just a job that pays better and feeds them better than anything they could get in civvy street.

Just look at the red-shirt sympathisers in the Thai Army as an example

Weren't you cannon fodder for the mlghty Kiwi war machine?

Weren't you cannon fodder for the mlghty Kiwi war machine?

, no. If you recall, I was a sapper.

Weren't you cannon fodder for the mlghty Kiwi war machine?

, no. If you recall, I was a sapper.

Koheesti:

The mighty Kiwi war machine use their sappers to perform the Haka. They do the Haka at soccer games and when the US Navy sails past their shores.

<BR>

<BR>

<BR>Weren't you cannon fodder for the mlghty Kiwi war machine?<BR>

<BR><BR><BR><IMG class=bbc_emoticon alt= src="http://static.thaivisa.com/forum/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif"> , no. If you recall, I was a sapper. <IMG class=bbc_emoticon alt= src="http://static.thaivisa.com/forum/public/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif"><BR>

<BR><BR><BR>Koheesti:<BR><BR>The mighty Kiwi war machine use their sappers to perform the Haka.  They do the Haka at soccer games and when the US Navy sails past their shores.<BR>

<BR><BR>Actually, the US navy has to sail so far out that it's not quite right to say "past their shores". They are not allowed here. <BR>Reminds me of the beer ad....<BR><BR><BR>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yf2-dLJRuBM&NR=1

<BR><BR><BR>

Actually, the US navy has to sail so far out that it's not quite right to say "past their shores". They are not allowed here.

Interesting...I did not know that.

Weren't you cannon fodder for the mlghty Kiwi war machine?

, no. If you recall, I was a sapper.

So why did you join?

He was a fan of the Village people.................

He was a fan of the Village people.................

Funny, haha.

Actually, I joined because I was young and reckless, looking for adventure, not thinking of any consequences.

Science has since shown that the part of a male brain that is responsible for reasoning and calculating consequences is still developing well into his early 20's. Young men have always been reckless.

not thinking 

Not a lot has changed. 

I think that the military is an excellent career for people with a certain mind set.

It's easy to say that it suits people who can't think for themselves but most of the servicemen I know are intelligent and have a liking for a well organised life.

I tried to talk my stepson into it as he was a neat, tidy boy who had trouble with time keeping and a tendency to bad company.

He fobbed me off say he didn't like being ordered around but that applies to the early stages of any worthwhile employment really, and personal discipline becomes something you can take pride in as part of a team.

If I knew what I knew now when I left school I'd have certainty considered it more seriously.