Foreign Lawyer Working In Thailand

[Sabre]

I spent 10 years in Thailand and worked for three magic circle firms in Bangkok (including Baker & McKenzie and two others).

Foreigners cannot officially practise law in Thailand.

They ought not sign correspondence (particularly on Firm letterhead) although some do.

They may not appear in court. They may not advise with respect to Thai law (although again, some do).

They may not hold themselves out as lawyers in Thailand..m

Actually it's one of these cases where everyone is furiously agreeing with each other. Think of it this way:

Foreign lawyers in Thailand are in almost exactly the same position as prostitutes. It's illegal, and doesn't happen, and yet, it does, and everyone knows it does, and nobody is particularly upset about it.

[Mario2008]

1 insulting post deleted. Play the ball, not the man.

[Lite Beer]

A post commenting on Moderation has been deleted.

[Hawkup2000]

He may work as a legal consultant, but as a foreigner he will never get a license for actually practicing law. Period. Full stop.

[hl2u]

Now, he can act as a consultant however, and have a Thai national lawyer sign off on all his work....

............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

http://www.thailawfo...ununlegal2.html

So...

The Lawyers Act B.E. 2528 (AD 1985) defines a lawyer as "a person who has been registered as a lawyer, and a license has been issued to him or her by the Law Society of Thailand." Therefore, no one can become a lawyer or practice law in Thailand without an education in law, registration, and a license to practice.

(10) Section 35 of the Lawyers Act B.E. 2528 (AD 1985) provides as follows:

"Section 35. An applicant for registration and a License shall have the following qualifications: (1) being of Thai nationality; (2) being at least twenty years of age; (3) having a Bachelor's Degree or an Associate Degree in law or a certificate in law equivalent to a Bachelor's Degree or Associate Degree from an educational institute accredited by the Law Society of Thailand, and must be a member of the Thai Bar Association; (4) not being a person of indecent behavior or delinquent morals or a person whose conduct is indicative of dishonesty; (5) not being imprisoned by a final judgment; (6) never having been imprisoned by a final judgment for an offence which, in the Board's discretion, will impair the integrity of the profession; (7) not being bankrupt by a final judgment; (8) not having an ailment which is contagious and repugnant to the public; (9) not being physically disabled or mentally infirmed which may cause professional incompetence; (10) not being a government official or a local government official with permanent salary and position except a political official."

samran: thank you very much for your informed answer(s). It looks like there is a hope, still

btw, what is a "magic circle law firm " ?

Edited August 12, 2010 by hl2u

[hl2u]

To the OP:

Get him to open an "Israeli" restaurant or bar....

RAZZ

Meaning...?

[jazzbo]

Back to the OP's original query, I would suggest that the B-I-L contact persons at the Embassy of Israel in Bangkok for information as to whom in Bangkok might require the services of a qualified Israeli attorney as a consultant or otherwise.

[samran]

samran: thank you very much for your informed answer(s). It looks like there is a hope, still

btw, what is a "magic circle law firm " ?

\

* Allen & Overy

* Clifford Chance

* Freshfields Bruckhaus Deringer

* Linklaters

* Slaughter and May

some of the biggest law firms in the UK...many with a presence in BKK, and with many foreign consultants and managers, of course....

in terms of the israeli community, there is a small solid one in BKK. As mentioned, the emabassy and the social networking nights these embassies inevitably have is a good place to start. The only semi-prominent IL businessperson I know of (well I think he is) is Luzi Matzig http://www.asiantrails.info/index.cfm?menuid=2&position=top, so you'll probably run across him at some point. I beleive he is one of the relatively few people who have naturalised as a Thai citizen.

[jayboy]

samran: thank you very much for your informed answer(s). It looks like there is a hope, still

btw, what is a "magic circle law firm " ?

\

* Allen & Overy

* Clifford Chance

* Freshfields Bruckhaus Deringer

* Linklaters

* Slaughter and May

some of the biggest law firms in the UK...many with a presence in BKK, and with many foreign consultants and managers, of course....

And many,despite the welter of disinformation on this thread, with foreign partners and lawyers as well - as any serious Bangkok based businessman will already know.

On the "magic circle" issue here's a useful summary and although 6 years old provides a round up on the major firms catering to the corporate sector

http://asia.legalbusinessonline.com/law-firms/thailand-at-the-cross-roads/1175/21352

Edited August 14, 2010 by jayboy

[jazzbo]

... Of course this 'welter of disinformation' stems from dealing with UK-based law firms as mentioned above where in the UK there is a differentiation between barrister and solicitor --

In the USA and in USA-based firms in Bangkok, you either are a lawyer or you ain't ... and unless you are qualified IN Thailand as opposed to maintaining your qualification from elsewhere, you ain't a lawyer.

[Indo-Siam]

There is a very simple test to determine if a person working in Thailand is working as a "lawyer" - and that is whether they have a Thailand lawyer's license - which is a plastic card, similar in size and plastic material to the current driver's license - and bearing their photo, and their lawyer's registration number.

All of the lawyers that I have employed had two cards - one in Thai language, and a separate one in English - but I understand that you only receive the English version if you ask for it.

For any document that gets submitted to the government that requires a lawyer's signature, a signed photocopy of the lawyer's license must accompany the signed document.

I am pretty certain that no foreigners - other than the survivors of a group of half a dozen foreign lawyers certified more than 40 years ago - have Thai lawyers license cards. Thus - they are not able to practice as "lawyers" in Thailand, for anything that requires a license and a signature - meaning anything that has legal "standing" within Thailand.

There are still many foreign-licensed lawyers/solicitors/barristers/attorneys "working" in Thailand - basically as legal consultants or advisers. But - they have no "standing" to practice Thai law in Thailand.

Steve

Indo-Siam

[samran]

... Of course this 'welter of disinformation' stems from dealing with UK-based law firms as mentioned above where in the UK there is a differentiation between barrister and solicitor --

In the USA and in USA-based firms in Bangkok, you either are a lawyer or you ain't ... and unless you are qualified IN Thailand as opposed to maintaining your qualification from elsewhere, you ain't a lawyer.

haha, "welter of disinformation". Hamming it up for us, ole jayboy. You'd think that at least 5 other people telling him he doesn't have a clue what he is talking about would be the end of it, but no. It is simply a 'welter of disinformation".

Personally, I think it is time to award him the Stg Schultz award...

I know nothing....NOTHING

Edited August 14, 2010 by samran

[jayboy]

... Of course this 'welter of disinformation' stems from dealing with UK-based law firms as mentioned above where in the UK there is a differentiation between barrister and solicitor --

In the USA and in USA-based firms in Bangkok, you either are a lawyer or you ain't ... and unless you are qualified IN Thailand as opposed to maintaining your qualification from elsewhere, you ain't a lawyer.

haha, "welter of disinformation". Hamming it up for us, ole jayboy. You'd think that at least 5 other people telling him he doesn't have a clue what he is talking about would be the end of it, but no. It is simply a 'welter of disinformation".

I think the picture is now fairly clear.There is a restriction on foreigners practising law in Thai courts.Subject to work permit/visa being in place there is no restriction on foreign lawyers in multinational legal practices where indeed many foreigners are partners.Any businessmen with experience at the upper corporate level knows this already.It doesn't really matter how many second tier expatriate "businessmen", ambulance chasers and "immigration" specialists disagree

[MJo]

Picture has been perfectly clear since post #2 but best thread for the day, keep it up guys.

This could be a classic, jay is almost as good as the old iraqi information minister or is he even better.....

[TAWP]

jayboy is at it once again...

Was part of a company registration process recently (partial ownership that didn't happen) and it was in the office of a known law firm. The foreign 'consultant' sat in on the meeting, informed about proceeding etc, but all questions about law, signatures, paper-shuffling, was handled by a Thai lawyer and an assistant that also was in the meetings.

The feeling from the foreign 'consultant' was more that he was there to act as a 'known face' (being foreigner himself) so their foreign clients will have someone to 'trust' - even if their Thai staff was decent at English.

Somewhat overpriced for the service provided tbh, compared to if one finds a completely Thai firm where they speak decent English too.

[Indo-Siam]

I think the picture is now fairly clear.There is a restriction on foreigners practising law in Thai courts.Subject to work permit/visa being in place there is no restriction on foreign lawyers in multinational legal practices where indeed many foreigners are partners.Any businessmen with experience at the upper corporate level knows this already.It doesn't really matter how many second tier expatriate "businessmen", ambulance chasers and "immigration" specialists disagree

No - it is not just about "practising (sic) law in Thai courts" - it is about anything that requires the signature of a lawyer, within Thailand. That pretty much accounts for anything that amounts to "practicing law" - so, foreigners cannot execute any persistent legal artifact that counts as a legal action within Thailand.

To put it another way - a foreign lawyer officially/legally carries no more legal weight within Thailand than a foreign bricklayer. Via his personal abilities and competence, he may be influential as a counselor - as a respected adviser - but in Thailand, he is not a practicing, licensed lawyer - because Thai law prohibits that.

The OP was inquiring about whether a foreigner could practice law in Thailand - as a professional lawyer - and the answer is "no". At least, that is what I draw from the OP:

"The question is, and thanks in advance for any relevant opinions, what are the formalities to get the license

to practice in Thailand"

The correct answer is: a foreigner cannot get a license to practice in Thailand. Period.

All other answers are factually incorrect. It is pointless to try to suggest otherwise.

Steve

Indo-Siam

[hl2u]

The OP was inquiring about whether a foreigner could practice law in Thailand - as a professional lawyer - and the answer is "no". At least, that is what I draw from the OP:

"The question is, and thanks in advance for any relevant opinions, what are the formalities to get the license

to practice in Thailand"

The correct answer is: a foreigner cannot get a license to practice in Thailand. Period.

All other answers are factually incorrect. It is pointless to try to suggest otherwise.

Steve

Indo-Siam

Yes, Steve, that was my exact question Anyway I feel kinda embarassed that it produced such a fuss...

[KanakaFari]

Well, there is one frang that is a thai barrister.... he has thaiized his name and workd witha firm in BKK..... BTW, he is a a formost expert on Thai Coins. Has some thai and Farang partners... the practice of law is limited to taking the exam in Thai!

[jayboy]

The argument here reminds me of the medieval debate about how many angels could fit on the end of a pin, pointless.. because it avoids dealing with the practical.We know about the Thai restriction on practising law.We also know that almost every major international law firm here has foreign lawyers in employment, some of them as partners.This as I have stated repeatedly is almost always in matters relating to the corporate sector.None of the foreign lawyers I have dealt with in over 20 years is concerned about sitting in the background or having a Thai colleague sign off.In terms of what their work permits say I fully understand the word "lawyer" isn't used.I know that Thai lawyers only can be involved in ourt proceedings.

I can only reflect that the nature of this forum focusing on the world of visa regulations (and the bottom feeding lawyers that live off them) doesn't provide the necessary experience.Those who have actually operated at this level would know I am pointing out none other than the truth.I suspect Indo-Siam at least knows the practical position as well as I do, but perhaps he is just being - dare I say it - legalistic.On a point of detail Indo-Siam comes up with a prescriptive definition when he talks about signing a document that counts as a legal action.As I have made very clear that It's understood very well a foreign lawyer cannot do this.His role is purely in the sphere of giving advice and opinions.

[Indo-Siam]

The argument here reminds me of the medieval debate about how many angels could fit on the end of a pin, pointless.. because it avoids dealing with the practical.We know about the Thai restriction on practising law.We also know that almost every major international law firm here has foreign lawyers in employment, some of them as partners.This as I have stated repeatedly is almost always in matters relating to the corporate sector.None of the foreign lawyers I have dealt with in over 20 years is concerned about sitting in the background or having a Thai colleague sign off.In terms of what their work permits say I fully understand the word "lawyer" isn't used.I know that Thai lawyers only can be involved in ourt proceedings.

I can only reflect that the nature of this forum focusing on the world of visa regulations (and the bottom feeding lawyers that live off them) doesn't provide the necessary experience.Those who have actually operated at this level would know I am pointing out none other than the truth.I suspect Indo-Siam at least knows the practical position as well as I do, but perhaps he is just being - dare I say it - legalistic.On a point of detail Indo-Siam comes up with a prescriptive definition when he talks about signing a document that counts as a legal action.As I have made very clear that It's understood very well a foreign lawyer cannot do this.His role is purely in the sphere of giving advice and opinions.

Not exactly. I look at the question: "The question is, and thanks in advance for any relevant opinions, what are the formalities to get the license to practice in Thailand" - and then I answer it.

You seem to be on some other mental journey - related to in-Thailand employment opportunities for foreigners who have backgrounds as lawyers in their home countries. I think everyone who participated in this discussion agrees that there are employment opportunities here for bright foreigners - including those with law degrees from outside Thailand - and that quite a few of them even work at Thai legal firms. And - that information may even be useful to the OP. But - answering the direct question - directly - does not seem to me to amount to "being ... legalistic".

As far as all the other verbal illusion - "being a partner in a firm" is just verbal fluff. Every Thai private company requires at least three shareholders - regardless of what it does. Those three individuals can call themselves "partners" or "joint venture investors" - or whatever fancy term they want. Similarly - a shareholder/director of a restaurant can call the cashier a "partner" if it make him/her feel good. I run a business services firm that employs Thai lawyers - and Thai accountants. I suppose I can call myself a "Senior Partner" - but I choose the functional title "Managing Director." A "Partner" who is not a company shareholder, or a company director, is simply wearing a meaningless title. If he is a shareholder or director, and he is called a "Partner" - his authority and legal influence comes from the shareholder or director status, not from the title "Partner".

Meaning: citing the fact that foreign non-lawyers (Thai legal status) are called "Partners" in some Thai law firms - and trying to use that as "evidence" that they are "really lawyers in Thailand" is just dissembling.

There are some really good foreign executives in Thailand with law degrees, and who have licenses to practice law in their home countries. A lot of them are probably associated with Thai law firms.

There are also a bunch of sad sack foreigners here, with the same credentials - some of whom have been disbarred for misconduct in home countries. Or who are alcoholics, or drug abusers, or are otherwise shaky characters. Some of them run their own small businesses, marketing themselves in Thailand as "lawyers". Most clients wouldn't know the difference. But - there will always be a Thai lawyer lurking somewhere in the background, to sign documents that require the signature of a licensed Thai lawyer. Additionally, not many foreigners with legal training have sufficient fluency in written Thai to read Thai legal texts, and prepare written documents - so they need qualified help in that area.

To the OP: don't be too concerned about having "opened up a can of worms." This forum attracts a lot of participants who simply like to dig into topics, and see where side-topics can take them. Usually - there is a lot to be learned that is only tangentially related to the original inquiry. The only sad outcome is when the original inquiry is ignored, and never properly addressed.

Cheers!

Steve

Indo-Siam

[jayboy]

You seem to be on some other mental journey - related to in-Thailand employment opportunities for foreigners who have backgrounds as lawyers in their home countries. I think everyone who participated in this discussion agrees that there are employment opportunities here for bright foreigners - including those with law degrees from outside Thailand - and that quite a few of them even work at Thai legal firms. And - that information may even be useful to the OP. But - answering the direct question - directly - does not seem to me to amount to "being ... legalistic".

As far as all the other verbal illusion - "being a partner in a firm" is just verbal fluff. Every Thai private company requires at least three shareholders - regardless of what it does. Those three individuals can call themselves "partners" or "joint venture investors" - or whatever fancy term they want. Similarly - a shareholder/director of a restaurant can call the cashier a "partner" if it make him/her feel good. I run a business services firm that employs Thai lawyers - and Thai accountants. I suppose I can call myself a "Senior Partner" - but I choose the functional title "Managing Director." A "Partner" who is not a company shareholder, or a company director, is simply wearing a meaningless title. If he is a shareholder or director, and he is called a "Partner" - his authority and legal influence comes from the shareholder or director status, not from the title "Partner".

Meaning: citing the fact that foreign non-lawyers (Thai legal status) are called "Partners" in some Thai law firms - and trying to use that as "evidence" that they are "really lawyers in Thailand" is just dissembling.

There are some really good foreign executives in Thailand with law degrees, and who have licenses to practice law in their home countries. A lot of them are probably associated with Thai law firms.

There are also a bunch of sad sack foreigners here, with the same credentials - some of whom have been disbarred for misconduct in home countries. Or who are alcoholics, or drug abusers, or are otherwise shaky characters. Some of them run their own small businesses, marketing themselves in Thailand as "lawyers". Most clients wouldn't know the difference. But - there will always be a Thai lawyer lurking somewhere in the background, to sign documents that require the signature of a licensed Thai lawyer. Additionally, not many foreigners with legal training have sufficient fluency in written Thai to read Thai legal texts, and prepare written documents - so they need qualified help in that area

Cheers!

Steve

Indo-Siam

Steve

You don't seem to be fully focusing on what I have been saying, perhaps because the focus of your firm is more on visa issues and SMEs (I'm guessing).I'm referring to the relatively few international firms operating here (Linklaters,Allen and Overy etc) dealing with major players.Foreign lawyers at these firms offer legal advice and opinions.Any major league player knows this, and yes of course they have back up from Thai colleagues.As to their legal and academic credentials, with respect you seem to be on your own different mental journey with your talk of alcoholics and disbarred lawyers.The cognoscenti know the recruitment standards of the magic circle firms.

[samran]

Steve,

save your breath. This isn't about an answer, we have that. Jayboy is intent on proving two things:

1) he is smarter than everyone else

2) proving me wrong, even when he can't. He has a history in jumping down my throat, as well as a few others who don't like his politics.

[jayboy]

Steve,

save your breath. This isn't about an answer, we have that. Jayboy is intent on proving two things:

1) he is smarter than everyone else

2) proving me wrong, even when he can't. He has a history in jumping down my throat, as well as a few others who don't like his politics.

But you have been proved wrong.It is now clear there are many foreign lawyers practising in Thailand.You respond when your ignorance is pointed out by posting comic pictures.

I have no idea what your politics are, neither do I care.I merely pointed out a misleading answer.

[samran]

Steve,

save your breath. This isn't about an answer, we have that. Jayboy is intent on proving two things:

1) he is smarter than everyone else

2) proving me wrong, even when he can't. He has a history in jumping down my throat, as well as a few others who don't like his politics.

But you have been proved wrong.It is now clear there are many foreign lawyers practising in Thailand.You respond when your ignorance is pointed out by posting comic pictures.

I have no idea what your politics are, neither do I care.I merely pointed out a misleading answer.

My second response to this thread, to the OP states:

I have a number of friends who are lawyers, working in Thailand. We regularly pitch work together. Strictly speaking though, they are advisors, consultants, anything else, but not a lawyer as far as the Thai government is concerned.

Which part of

"I...have...a...number...of...friends...who...are...lawyers...working...in...Thailand" do you not understand????

And which part of

"they... are...advisors....consultants....anything else...but..not...a...lawyer...as...far...as...the...Thai...government...is...concerned" did you not comprehend???

Edited August 15, 2010 by samran

[jayboy]

save your breath. This isn't about an answer, we have that. Jayboy is intent on proving two things:

1) he is smarter than everyone else

2) proving me wrong, even when he can't. He has a history in jumping down my throat, as well as a few others who don't like his politics.

My dear fellow I think you and I have bored members long enough on this subject.Your comments have been very misleading but to some extent you are excused because clearly you have no knowledge or experience of high level commercial legal matters.Those who do (none of whom I imagine would participate in this forum) deal with foreign lawyers in Bangkok regularly.If you are simply saying that that Thai regulations prevent foreigners formally practising law, thank you although most grasped that point some time ago.Sayonara.

[marinediscoking]

a

Edited August 15, 2010 by marinediscoking

[marinediscoking]

This might be the most entertaining topic I have read on thai visa. Being a Pattaya expat I have experienced opinions like jayboy's often. No matter what amount of proof that one provides, he is never wrong because he got his information while drinking in a bar from a BG or some other local pundit.

Just last year my company had 2 separate legal disputes involving expats trying to dispute lease agreements on my businesses. In both cases they tried to say my thai lawyer was not a lawyer, so I said I can easily prove this by proceeding this matter to court. Both settled. Turned out people representing them were foreign consultants without a thai lawyer working in their offices.

I have seen expats claim they are lawyers in thailand so this goes to what Steve was saying....that it is important to see the credentials of the lawyer. I also have mine verified by a third party as well.

[samran]

Your comments have been very misleading but to some extent you are excused because clearly you have no knowledge or experience of high level commercial legal matters.Those who do (none of whom I imagine would participate in this forum) deal with foreign lawyers in Bangkok regularly.

Haha, I advise international equity funds, foreign mulitnationals, one of Thailands largest company's with a market cap in the billions (am on nickname basis with their CFO), done extensive DD for a varitey of M&A's (in the hundereds of millions of $$'s) and have worked on IPO's for both the Thai government and large private clients.

So as you say, clearly no knowledge of high level commercial legal matters at all, as you never run across international lawyer 'consultants' at all during this work...

Edited August 15, 2010 by samran

[jazzbo]

for ... Ha Ha ... I advise ... (or for anyone else including me):

Edited August 15, 2010 by jazzbo

[KanakaFari]

To the OP:

Get him to open an "Israeli" restaurant or bar....

RAZZ

Good Ida, do it on soi 3 and well all watch the fire works