Region 2 Police Raid Central Pattaya Short Time Bar

[Buchholz]

I did not say that the foreign volunteers working with Immigration or other Police do not need work permits because they are unpaid

I did not say that you said that. I was only addressing that aspect of being unpaid because you made it part of your comment, "do not need work permits and are unpaid in any way."

but simply that they are not required for this specific voluntary service.

I repeat my earlier question of who exactly is saying that they are not required to comply with Labour Ministry regulations. Has the Labour Ministry granted them an exemption from their regulations? If so, could you obtain a copy of this exemption and post it because it has never been given to any other foreigner working with any other government organization, it's not been given to volunteer teachers working in poor government schools, not for humanitarian workers working in refugee camps. No one. No matter what level of altruistic work they are performing for Thailand (and some would consider those type of workers at a higher level of volunteerism than the FTPA). But yet, the FTPA has this exemption?

Since it would be the Police who would arrest you in other circumstances, it must be construed that the same Police gave that dispensation.

The thing is, the police are not in a position to give that dispensation. It's a Labour Ministry regulation and that dispensation requires Labour Ministry approval. The police fall under a different ministry, the Interior Ministry.

As to reports of any foreign volunteers being involved in undercover work, I repeat that these days

So they did in the past then. Thank you for the confirmation of those articles then.

quote:

Think of it as someone who does this or that despite also being an FTPA or FPV.

unquote

oh ok... so the FTPA that still do undercover work are working clandestinely and without the FTPA's knowledge and permission. That clears that up, too.

Thank you.

[petercool]

I doubt that the 2 referred to local volunteer organizations will tell you more than I have - or even as much - and in reality they are not answerable to you nor to me on aspects of their status.

They are, as I stated, set up by - and thus answerable to - sections of the Royal Thai Police.

I have outlined some of what I know and if you want more than that, please feel free to contact either the Royal Thai Police, the Labour Department or the Foreign Ministry.

[Buchholz]

I doubt that the 2 referred to local volunteer organizations will tell you more than I have - or even as much - and in reality they are not answerable to you nor to me on aspects of their status.

I agree in your doubt that they will be forthcoming with information. Open and frank disclosure doesn't seem to be their strong suit.

It's a shame that they choose to operate under such an umbrella of doubt and suspicion and are apparently incapable of being above board and transparent in their operations. The more they shroud themselves in secrecy the more they are looked down upon.

That they think they are above the law themselves just adds to the negativity associated with their group even though that sort of false bravado, no doubt, appeals to some of their members.

Thank you for your information.

[britmaveric]

^who really cares at the end of the day what farang oriented police assistants do or not do. Do you think just because you do not like it they will change what they do?

If they used a farang volunteer - I quite imagine it's a lad who's into some trouble and will get out of it by assisting the BIB. This is done throughout the world by police - basically a paid informer status.

[Buchholz]

^who really cares at the end of the day what farang oriented police assistants do or not do.

I think that would be quite obvious to those that live in the same vicinity as their operations involve.

Do you think just because you do not like it they will change what they do?

How does change often occur? By bringing it to the attention of those people that it effects. The negativity of their operations affect all of us here.

But no, I don't think that "just because I don't like it" (your words), that I could single-handedly get them to comply with the labour ministry regulations. I would only hope to appeal to their sense of right and wrong and to do things legally as members of a law enforcement agency. The irony of that is profound.

If they used a farang volunteer - I quite imagine it's a lad who's into some trouble and will get out of it by assisting the BIB. This is done throughout the world by police - basically a paid informer status.

Except that it's not described as paid informer... it's described as a foreign operative which implies someone working undercover that is attached to a law enforcement agency. It certainly wouldn't be used to describe someone that is was in trouble with the law themselves.

[petercool]

It should be pointed out to those who decry foreigner involvement in any Police matter here that many Embassies have their own people doing work of a nature that could be called undercover and covert to track and apprehend (with local Police involvement) criminals of many types. In other words, your own government has people doing what you find so abhorrent for some reason. There are also non-Embassy foreign agencies that focus on human trafficking and drugs (in particular) that additionally work undercover for obvious reasons. This is not unique to Thailand. Almost all countries have operatives in place that it makes sense not to have openly discussed and transparent. That is a reality that modern society must live with.

One can live and work here - as I have - for many decades and never have to deal with Police outside of routine road checks.

Or one can volunteer as an FPV to do what one can within given circumstances to make things a little better for people in trouble and give something back - as I have - and I am open in stating so.

I can and do understand some criticisms of certain individuals in the organizations that have been discussed here but like all generalisms some are well founded and some are not and without specific details of any person or activity I am not able to comment other than to say bar talk is one thing and supported fact is another.

[Buchholz]

It should be pointed out to those who decry foreigner involvement in any Police matter here that many Embassies have their own people doing work of a nature that could be called undercover and covert to track and apprehend (with local Police involvement) criminals of many types.

That is true and it highlights two important distinguishing factors with the FTPA.

1. They are professional law enforcement employees.

2. They are working legally under the guidelines of the Labour Ministry.

Another aspect worth pointing out is that I doubt any of the Embassy-employed law enforcement officials are involving themselves in the sort of matter that this thread is concerning, to wit, uncovering prostitution at a two-bit short-time bar.

In other words, your own government has people doing what you find so abhorrent for some reason.

It's a lot more palatable when legal and properly-trained professionals are doing so.

There are also non-Embassy foreign agencies that focus on human trafficking and drugs (in particular) that additionally work undercover for obvious reasons.

Using the DEA as an example, it's again a matter of legal and competent law enforcement agency workers performing the task.

This is not unique to Thailand. Almost all countries have operatives in place that it makes sense not to have openly discussed and transparent. That is a reality that modern society must live with.

What is unique to Thailand is the notion of foreign nationals working without work permits alongside the police as volunteers. I'm unaware of any similar organization to the FTPA working anywhere in the world. If you know of any, I'd be happy to read about it.

[petercool]

You may be right about other countries not having anything akin to FTPA or FPV.

I do not know, but I do know more than one country in S.E. Asia that uses foreign nationals in covert military, police and security ops. beyond just training.

Probably NOT volunteer residents though.

It might be worth pointing out that many FPV - at least - have specialist Police, regular Police, Armed Security or Military backgrounds - but admittedly not all.

While useful, that is not as needed as much as local knowledge and calm common sense in duties here.

I am not condoning anything nor applauding anything and the issue of work permits is intriguing but I can add little more to this discussion.

I do thank you for your courteous approach to my posts. Cheers.

[Rimmer]

UPDATE

Police Continue Crackdown on ‘Short-time’ Premises in Pattaya

PATTAYA: -- Crime Suppression Police raided another ‘short-time’ bar in North Pattaya on Saturday night. Following this week’s raid on the Mandarin Bar in Soi 6, officers instigated a similar investigation on the nearby Soho Bar.

Pattaya, the 9th of October 2010 [PDN]: At approximately 11:00pm on Saturday, Lieutenant Colonel Choosak Kaytong (Crime Suppression Special Unit officer) and his team conducted a sting operation at the Soho Bar (A-Go-Go) on Soi 6, off Pattaya Beach Road.

Full story HERE

PATTAYA DAILY NEWS

2010-10-10

[newsfooter][/newsfooter]

[mufcsamui]

Hope the Farang had a work permit

[petercool]

To add a bit more here, after feeling I wouldn't ....

It is very rare - if even possible - for a foreigner to get a work permit to manage a bar. He normally can own it in partnership with Thais but not work in it without risk of breaking Labour Laws and then being fair game for undercover guys and gals working with police for an incentive, be they Thai or foreign. A bar and/or restaurant that does not offer ladies or ladyboys for on premise sex is way safer than that one that does. That's why it seems like "some bars" are raided and "some bars" aren't. They are not operated the same way.

Are there some that are "protected" ?- of course.

Are there some that gave someone the finger and have problems later ? - of course.

Are there other categories ? - of course.

It is extremely hard to generalize when it comes to these issues but at the end of the day, if laws are broken you can expect to have problems.

It is no defense anywhere in the world to state that "another person did it also and is not yet arrested" and then ask "so why am I ?"

And if you think that the UK (for example) would not use other nationalities to inform on their own immigrant communities, think again.

[britmaveric]

article seem to elude to the crackdowns were promotion related.... usual October shuffle.

[Buchholz]

If they used a farang volunteer - I quite imagine it's a lad who's into some trouble and will get out of it by assisting the BIB. This is done throughout the world by police - basically a paid informer status.

Except that it's not described as paid informer... it's described as a foreign operative which implies someone working undercover that is attached to a law enforcement agency. It certainly wouldn't be used to describe someone that is was in trouble with the law themselves.

Pattaya, the 9th of October 2010 [PDN]: At approximately 11:00pm on Saturday, Lieutenant Colonel Choosak Kaytong (Crime Suppression Special Unit officer) and his team conducted a sting operation at the Soho Bar (A-Go-Go) on Soi 6, off Pattaya Beach Road.

Another bar bust and another foreigner utilized.

This time he's not described as a foreign operative, but is described as:

officers using a foreign national as an undercover agent

sounding less and less as "a lad in trouble"

[newermonkey]

If they used a farang volunteer - I quite imagine it's a lad who's into some trouble and will get out of it by assisting the BIB. This is done throughout the world by police - basically a paid informer status.

Except that it's not described as paid informer... it's described as a foreign operative which implies someone working undercover that is attached to a law enforcement agency. It certainly wouldn't be used to describe someone that is was in trouble with the law themselves.

Pattaya, the 9th of October 2010 [PDN]: At approximately 11:00pm on Saturday, Lieutenant Colonel Choosak Kaytong (Crime Suppression Special Unit officer) and his team conducted a sting operation at the Soho Bar (A-Go-Go) on Soi 6, off Pattaya Beach Road.

Another bar bust and another foreigner utilized.

This time he's not described as a foreign operative, but is described as:

officers using a foreign national as an undercover agent

sounding less and less as "a lad in trouble"

There are lots of these "so called foreign police helpers or volunteers" I would guess 100% of them are on the take just as their Thai brothers are. Actually I would say they are downright dangerous.

[Daewoo]

Those women were arrested AFTER the sex was actually performed and completed, which is contradictory to every other law enforcement practices I've heard of any where in the world.

Actually, here in Australia, opperation of illegal brothels comes under the jurisdiction of the local council... and if the local council wants to take action, they do have to pay an 'independant contractor' to undertake the sex act, and document it, and stand in court as a witness...

So it isn't about the practice of enforcement, but the circumstances that would have them target one particular fish in the ocean...

Daewoo

[petercool]

There are lots of these "so called foreign police helpers or volunteers" I would guess 100% of them are on the take just as their Thai brothers are. Actually I would say they are downright dangerous.

If that includes the FPV, you would be guessing wrong.

Everyone can can have an opinion but yours is bordering on being libel.

I would be interested in why you feel threatened by them and why they are "downright dangerous".

[Buchholz]

Those women were arrested AFTER the sex was actually performed and completed, which is contradictory to every other law enforcement practices I've heard of any where in the world.

Actually, here in Australia, opperation of illegal brothels comes under the jurisdiction of the local council... and if the local council wants to take action, they do have to pay an 'independant contractor' to undertake the sex act, and document it, and stand in court as a witness...

So it isn't about the practice of enforcement, but the circumstances that would have them target one particular fish in the ocean...

excerpt from:

Prostitution laws in Australia

http://www.aic.gov.au/documents/F/B/5/%7BFB5E3FDC-1AB5-4F04-A1B8-9D4B5C30B42C%7Dti22.pdf

Proper ethical behaviour does not permit a police officer to strip naked in an attempt to obtain evidence. Police, seeking convictions for the use of premises for the purposes of prostitution need to pose as clients and trick the prostitute into discussing a price for sexual services. A technique that is often used is to ask whether use of a condom is necessary. The prostitutes answer, whether negative or positive, represents an admission that sexual services are provided.

Edited October 11, 2010 by Buchholz

[newermonkey]

There are lots of these "so called foreign police helpers or volunteers" I would guess 100% of them are on the take just as their Thai brothers are. Actually I would say they are downright dangerous.

If that includes the FPV, you would be guessing wrong.

Everyone can can have an opinion but yours is bordering on being libel.

I would be interested in why you feel threatened by them and why they are "downright dangerous".

Because I had a bad experience with one:

My wife runs a small supermarket in jomtien and about 5 months ago a farang guy parked his huge black suv in a way that virtually blocked the shop entrance (even though there was ample parking in the carpark directly opposite. He was visiting a shop about 4 doors down, after 10 min he had not returned so we asked the assistant to go and find him so he could move his vehicle to allow our customers some access.

He came back in a rage saw me and directed his venomous rantings at me, he said he was a policeman and will have me arested and the shop shut down, he was waring a black volunteer uniform and was acting like an SS officer.

We were all polite to him all the time but he was abusing his assumed authority.

There is no libel here.

[Daewoo]

Those women were arrested AFTER the sex was actually performed and completed, which is contradictory to every other law enforcement practices I've heard of any where in the world.

Actually, here in Australia, opperation of illegal brothels comes under the jurisdiction of the local council... and if the local council wants to take action, they do have to pay an 'independant contractor' to undertake the sex act, and document it, and stand in court as a witness...

So it isn't about the practice of enforcement, but the circumstances that would have them target one particular fish in the ocean...

excerpt from:

Prostitution laws in Australia

http://www.aic.gov.a...B42C%7Dti22.pdf

Proper ethical behaviour does not permit a police officer to strip naked in an attempt to obtain evidence. Police, seeking convictions for the use of premises for the purposes of prostitution need to pose as clients and trick the prostitute into discussing a price for sexual services. A technique that is often used is to ask whether use of a condom is necessary. The prostitutes answer, whether negative or positive, represents an admission that sexual services are provided.

What I am relating is what is reported in the media, about COUNCILS hiring 'investigators' in order to close down brothels - not prosecute prostitutes, and the first hand experience of my good friend who is an "Environmental Health Officer" who goes on the raids after the COUNCIL has employed the services and of an 'investigator' to prosecute an Illegal Brothel...

And Thailand isn't Australia... My point was, the focus shouldn't be the method used to prove the place was acting as a brothel, but why only that one was raided (i.e. who did the owner piss off, or not pay)...

Daewoo

[Buchholz]

Those women were arrested AFTER the sex was actually performed and completed, which is contradictory to every other law enforcement practices I've heard of any where in the world.

Actually, here in Australia, opperation of illegal brothels comes under the jurisdiction of the local council... and if the local council wants to take action, they do have to pay an 'independant contractor' to undertake the sex act, and document it, and stand in court as a witness...

So it isn't about the practice of enforcement, but the circumstances that would have them target one particular fish in the ocean...

excerpt from:

Prostitution laws in Australia

http://www.aic.gov.a...B42C%7Dti22.pdf

Proper ethical behaviour does not permit a police officer to strip naked in an attempt to obtain evidence. Police, seeking convictions for the use of premises for the purposes of prostitution need to pose as clients and trick the prostitute into discussing a price for sexual services. A technique that is often used is to ask whether use of a condom is necessary. The prostitutes answer, whether negative or positive, represents an admission that sexual services are provided.

What I am relating is what is reported in the media, about COUNCILS hiring 'investigators' in order to close down brothels - not prosecute prostitutes, and the first hand experience of my good friend who is an "Environmental Health Officer" who goes on the raids after the COUNCIL has employed the services and of an 'investigator' to prosecute an Illegal Brothel...

And Thailand isn't Australia... My point was, the focus shouldn't be the method used to prove the place was acting as a brothel, but why only that one was raided (i.e. who did the owner piss off, or not pay)...

Ah, I found a few articles that specifically addressed that aspect with the "investigators" and have to say I was rather surprised by them because, as I had said previously, I had not encountered a situation where completed sex acts by law enforcement officials other than what had been written about the occurrences in Pattaya.

It would also appear that the situation I read about in those articles regarding NSW might be different than the other states in Australia which would seem to follow the practices I posted above and which are in keeping with law enforcement practices around the world.

While I do appreciate the aspect of why this establishment was raided and not others is noteworthy, the aspect of how the arrests were accomplished and that the practices employed were seemingly quite different than "almost all other" (with a nod to your Australian experiences) law enforcement agencies around the world was equally noteworthy, as well.

[george]

Topic closed pending moderation review.