Here in OTB there are obviously strong supporters of Israel and strong supporters of the Palestinians. Maybe even a few people on the fence. It would be interesting if we would lay out our ideas of what "peace" might look like and what might be the result. For example, I don't really believe that the Palestinian supporters here want all Jews dead. I do wonder where they expect the Israelis to go. Perhaps back to their last "homeland" of Europe where their possessions were stolen and about 6 million of them were slaughtered? Maybe if they would lay out here what they expect, I wouldn't think these crazy things about them and we just might find out that we aren't really that far apart on some issues. I'll start...

I'm pro-Israel. I think some kind of two-state solution sounds like the best idea I've heard. How would that be divided exactly? I don't have a map handy and even if I did I wouldn't be able to draw the lines. How should Jerusalem be handled? That might be a special adminstrative zone. It's an important city to the Jews, Christians and Muslims. Maybe we could relocate the UN Headquarters there. Whatever, in the end, I'd like to see the people of the region living together peacefully to the same extent Germans and French appear to get along. Maybe it isn't possble, or likely, but that's what I'd like to see all the same. I hope that doesn't sound like genocide to any of you.

Now, my idea is that we state what we expect - or hope for - THEN we ask each other questions. I'm not going to bother trying to answer anything until at least the person asking takes some time to lay out what they themselves want and expect. Again, I'm not asking that anyone spell out HOW it would be done, only what they would like to see happen.

I do wonder where they expect the Israelis to go. Perhaps back to their last "homeland" of Europe where their possessions were stolen and about 6 million of them were slaughtered?

I was under the impression that the 'Israeli's' were in the area before 1948, they didn't just materialise, they had been moving back into Palestine in numbers since since approx 1888.

Now, my idea is that we state what we expect - or hope for - THEN we ask each other questions. I'm not going to bother trying to answer anything until at least the person asking takes some time to lay out what they themselves want and expect. Again, I'm not asking that anyone spell out HOW it would be done, only what they would like to see happen.

OK, as you do not want specifics, I can work with with that.

A two state solution is the way forward:

Jerusalem, to be a 'free' city and for this reason not the Capital of either:

UN to have its directives adhered to:

To stop Freedom Fighters/Terrorists you need to give them an incentive, to get Governments/Terrorists to talk, you need to give them a reason to talk constructively.

Syria needs to be brought on board, not an unlikely event, Egypt and Jordan to be consulted in a proactive manner, again not unlikely.

France and the Uk to bring their influence to bear and the USA to ensure their aid is fairly distributed.

But most of all, strong and sincere sanctions against all that wish to perpetuate the ongoing monstrosity that is the Middle East Problem and remember if other parts of the World can iron out Centuries of discord, it is not irrational to believe that the most Tangled Guordian Knot of our generation can be unravelled or cut through.

I do wonder where they expect the Israelis to go. Perhaps back to their last "homeland" of Europe where their possessions were stolen and about 6 million of them were slaughtered?

I was under the impression that the 'Israeli's' were in the area before 1948, they didn't just materialise, they had been moving back into Palestine in numbers since since approx 1888.

Exactly. They had always had a presence there.

My solution would be for the Arabs to finally get around to accepting a two-state solution and renounce violence or just move to Jordan as it was supposed to be their homeland in the first place.

Good thread.

Ideally, Israel as a Jewish state should never have existed. (It should be an Arab state with the normal Jewish population that you might find in many countries after the diaspora)

But since we can't turn back time, and the Jews are there and well established, then a 2-state solution is the only solution.

But considering the Israeli occupation of conquered lands, in a time when international law forbade the settling of said lands, then the Israelis should withdraw all their citizens back to the 1948 boundaries that they themselves declared as an independant state.

It's what they wanted.

Having established those borders, both the Palestinian AND Israeli hardliners should be reigned in by force by the UN..

If that happens, I would expect that most of the Arab hardliners would be mollified, and there should be no excuse (except for the grudge-bearing minority...and lets face it, it is a valid grudge) for any aggression towards Israel.

That grudge-bearing minority should, for the sake of widespread peace, be forced to accept the situation.

I think everyone agrees that a two-state solution is the only practical way forward.

But (and I'm sorry but this is all negative) how can it work?

There are arabs and other muslim minorities in Israel. Are they allowed to stay? Most want to stay. There demographic is growing faster than the Jewish demographic. Are they to be limited in parliamentary representation, or given equal rights?

There are extremes in Israel as there are in most countries. These must be reined in, but there will then by screams of invasion of human rights by both sets of extremists - religious and secular / Jewish and Arab/Muslim.

Look at Northern Ireland. Supposedly the Troubles are 'settled', and there is an assembly for most 'moderate' views. (Including Gerry Adams and Ian Paisley followers). But this week more people were arrested with weapons, who do not accept the Mo Mowlem solution (claimed by Tony Bliar). There is still a problem, although 99% of the world does not realise it. So how do we ensure that such does not happen in ME?

Really, I do not see a solution., All I can see is children growing up as they have done in the streets of Belfast, taught from birth that the other

agree to the 2 state solution and that the hardliners on both sides need to be somehow contained as i believe the majority on both sides can work towards peace

as we all know that this continued cycle of tit for tat violence/blame game will never lead to anything constructive

Overthrow the regime in Iran, restore democracy there.

Without Iranian support, rhetoric, weapons and rockets the Syrians, Lebanese and Palistinians would be forced to seek peace and work towards a reasonable two state solution.

Overthrow the regime in Iran, restore democracy there.

Without Iranian support, rhetoric, weapons and rockets the Syrians, Lebanese and Palistinians would be forced to seek peace and work towards a reasonable two state solution.

Ok...so just let Israel slowly eradicate the Palestinians into oblivion and eventually take over the entire area from Jordan to the sea, and from Egypt to Lebanon?

Without resistance, this is surely what the Israelis would do.

Why can not the Palestinian's fight for their survival and homes against an agressor who has shown the world that they want more than what they originally (and arguably wrongly) declared at the outrset?

Why can not the Palestinian's fight for their survival

Because they are not fighting for their survival and besides that they keep losing and then they complain about not being treated nicely enough. If Israel drove them all out of the country for the Jews survival, somehow I do not think that you would be cheering them on.

I do wonder where they expect the Israelis to go. Perhaps back to their last "homeland" of Europe where their possessions were stolen and about 6 million of them were slaughtered?

I was under the impression that the 'Israeli's' were in the area before 1948, they didn't just materialise, they had been moving back into Palestine in numbers since since approx 1888.

Exactly. They had always had a presence there.

wrong! they invaded the "god-given and promised" land "Canaan" after leaving Egypt around 1200 B.C. (~2488 jewish calendar) where they massacred within a decade or two a big part of the local (mostly male) population.

source: Holy Bible, Old Testament where one can find detailed descriptions how many Canaanites, Philistines, Moabites et al were stiffed each time the israelite kings or their generals went on a gallant killing spree. the latter not only tolerated but ordered by Yahwe.

My solution would be for the Arabs to finally get around to accepting a two-state solution and renounce violence or just move to Jordan as it was supposed to be their homeland in the first place.

says WHO?

Overthrow the regime in Iran, restore democracy there.

Without Iranian support, rhetoric, weapons and rockets the Syrians, Lebanese and Palistinians would be forced to seek peace and work towards a reasonable two state solution.

which right wing Jews under the leadership of Israel's foreign minister Evet Lvovich Liberman (aka Avigdor Lieberman) flatly reject. as a price for a two-state solution as well as a withdrawal from the settlements he and his party demand a deportation of all Israeli citizens of palestinian ethnicity.

In the hills in Albania, blood feuds have been going on for centuries. The sides are so entrenched, there is no solution. Sadly the Middle East will be the same.

1923-1947: In 1923, the British divided Palestine into two administrative districts. Jews would be mitted only west of the Jordan River. The British had allocated 75% of the originally proposed Jewish Palestinian homeland to lay the seeds of what would become in 1946 the Arab Palestinian Nation of "Trans-Jordan," meaning: "across the Jordan River." The Palestinian Arabs now had their "Arab Palestinian" homeland. The remaining 25% of Palestine (now WEST of the Jordan River) was to be the Jewish Palestinian homeland. However, the Arab population was determined to claim all of Palestine for itself, and wanted to "drive the Jews into the sea."

The U.N. Resolution 181 partition plan was to divide the remaining 25% of Palestine into a Jewish Palestinian State and a second Arab Palestinian State (Trans-Jordan being the first) based upon population concentration. The Jewish Palestinians accepted the proposal, but the Arab Palestinians rejected it. The Arabs still wanted ALL of Palestine - both east and west of the Jordan River. On May 14, 1948 the Palestinian Jews finally declared their own State of Israel and became "Israelis." On the next day, Israel was at war with seven neighboring Arab armies: Egypt, Trans-Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Yemen. Most of the Arabs living within the boundaries of the newly declared "ISRAEL" were encouraged to leave by the invading Arab armies to facilitate the slaughter of the Jews and were promised to be given all Jewish property after the victorious Arab armies won the war. When the 19-month war ended, however, Israel won and survived, despite a 1% loss of it's entire population. Those Arabs who did not run away became today's Israeli Arab citizens. Those who fled became the seeds of the first wave of "Palestinian Arab refugees."

http://www.contender...history.php

Overthrow the regime in Iran, restore democracy there.

Without Iranian support, rhetoric, weapons and rockets the Syrians, Lebanese and Palistinians would be forced to seek peace and work towards a reasonable two state solution.

which right wing Jews under the leadership of Israel's foreign minister Evet Lvovich Liberman (aka Avigdor Lieberman) flatly reject. as a price for a two-state solution as well as a withdrawal from the settlements he and his party demand a deportation of all Israeli citizens of palestinian ethnicity.

Every country has citizens with different points of view and the PM is in favor of a two-state solution.

In the hills in Albania, blood feuds have been going on for centuries. The sides are so entrenched, there is no solution. Sadly the Middle East will be the same.

my solution: take all Hamas members, right wing Palestinians and right wing Israelis who don't want to live in peace on a cruise to the Antarctic. no cabins, deck chairs only, attire t-shirt and shorts, no socks and no shoes. cruise for 10 days. problem solved. shooting would be easier but a human right violation.

Return to the Article

June 21, 2010

Geert Wilders and King Hussein agree that location is everything

Camie Davis

Whenever Geert Wilders is ready to write his memoir, I've got the perfect title: A Bold Fresh Piece of Humanity on Steroids. As if we needed another reason to love the refreshingly bold Wilders, he gives the sane, logical, knowing-right-from-wrong crowd another huge one. Hitting a grand slam out of the tell-it-like-it-is park, Wilders declared, "Jordan is Palestine."

Wilders, who leads the right-wing political party in Holland, said he believed Jordan's name should be changed to Palestine. He stated, "There has been an independent Palestinian state since 1946, and it is the kingdom of Jordan. Changing its name to Palestine will end the conflict in the Middle East and provide the Palestinians with an alternate homeland." Brilliant! Place the problem child right back in the lap of the nation who threw it under the bus.

Just in case that wasn't enough to rile the Arab world, Wilders also said, "If Jerusalem falls into the hands of the Muslims, Athens and Rome will be next. Thus, Jerusalem is the main front protecting the West. It is not a conflict over territory but rather an ideological battle, between the mentality of the liberated West and the ideology of Islamic barbarism."

On a roll, Wilders also called on the Dutch government to refer to Jordan as Palestine and to move its embassy to Jerusalem.

As you probably guessed, Arab leaders were a bit miffed at Wilders and "summoned" him to give an explanation. Jordan's minister for media affairs and communications, Nabil Al Sharif, asked for clarification.

Well Mr. Sharif, since Wilders is busy fighting the Islamization of his country, I've got a better idea. Ask your own king to explain. Wilders is simply letting out the genie that revisionist historians and politicians have tried to keep bottled. Jordanians, for decades, were avid proponents of the "Jordan is Palestine" position. They used that position as justification for the annexation of the West Bank, arguing that Palestine was one single, indivisible unit, and that Jordan was the legitimate governing body of Palestine. Your government, Mr. Sharif, including your king's father and grandfather, espoused the "Jordan is Palestine" claim that you are now so enraged by:

"We are the government of Palestine, the army of Palestine and the refugees of Palestine." Prime Minister of Jordan, Hazza' al-Majali, 23 August 1959

"Palestine and Transjordan are one." King Abdullah, Arab League meeting in Cairo, 12 April 1948

"Palestine is Jordan and Jordan is Palestine; there is one people and one land, with one history and one and the same fate." Prince Hassan, brother of King Hussein, addressing the Jordanian National Assembly, 2 February 1970

"Jordan is not just another Arab state with regard to Palestine, but rather, Jordan is Palestine and Palestine is Jordan in terms of territory, national identity, sufferings, hopes and aspirations." Jordanian Minister of Agriculture, 24 September 1980

"The truth is that Jordan is Palestine and Palestine is Jordan." King Hussein 1981

Thank you, Geert Wilders, for echoing voices from the past and reminding us what revisionists want us to forget. The entire farce of the Palestinian cause is literally a house built on Hashemite sand. If only your words would commence the crumbling.

Camie Davis can be followed on Facebook at Wake Up and Smell the Falafel.

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1923-1947: In 1923, the British divided Palestine into two administrative districts. Jews would be mitted only west of the Jordan River. The British had allocated 75% of the originally proposed Jewish Palestinian homeland to lay the seeds of what would become in 1946 the Arab Palestinian Nation of "Trans-Jordan," meaning: "across the Jordan River." The Palestinian Arabs now had their "Arab Palestinian" homeland. The remaining 25% of Palestine (now WEST of the Jordan River) was to be the Jewish Palestinian homeland. However, the Arab population was determined to claim all of Palestine for itself, and wanted to "drive the Jews into the sea."

The U.N. Resolution 181 partition plan was to divide the remaining 25% of Palestine into a Jewish Palestinian State and a second Arab Palestinian State (Trans-Jordan being the first) based upon population concentration. The Jewish Palestinians accepted the proposal, but the Arab Palestinians rejected it. The Arabs still wanted ALL of Palestine - both east and west of the Jordan River. On May 14, 1948 the Palestinian Jews finally declared their own State of Israel and became "Israelis." On the next day, Israel was at war with seven neighboring Arab armies: Egypt, Trans-Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Yemen. Most of the Arabs living within the boundaries of the newly declared "ISRAEL" were encouraged to leave by the invading Arab armies to facilitate the slaughter of the Jews and were promised to be given all Jewish property after the victorious Arab armies won the war. When the 19-month war ended, however, Israel won and survived, despite a 1% loss of it's entire population. Those Arabs who did not run away became today's Israeli Arab citizens. Those who fled became the seeds of the first wave of "Palestinian Arab refugees."

http://www.contender...history.php

We have all seen the maps of how Jewish territory has spread over the last 70 odd years.

It's convenient for the Israeli supporters to ignore them, as it is convenient to ignore a much more recent "agreement" .....

Israel was created in 1948, after UN Resolution 181 partitioned the territory of the British Mandate for Palestine into two states for Jews and Palestinian Arabs. The Arabs objected to the creation of the Jewish state and fought a war against it. The Arab side lost the war, and the Palestinian state never really came into being. The territory allotted to the Palestinian state by the UN partition resolution was taken over by Israel and Jordan. About 780,000 Palestinians became refugees.

Beginning in 1993, the Oslo agreements promised gradual withdrawal of Israel from the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Palestinians were hopeful that this process would end in a state for them. However, the peace process was marred by terrorist attacks, Israeli proliferation of settlements and negotiations that seemed to lead nowhere. Following breakdown of the final status negotiations in the summer of 2000, riots erupted in September 2000 when Israeli right wing political leader Ariel Sharon paid a controversial visit to the temple mount, in the Al-Aqsa mosque compound, holy to Muslims.. Palestinians refused to accept the agreement offered by US President Clinton in December 2000, and violence continued at least until the beginning of 2005. Israel has reoccupied large parts of the territory it had ceded to the Palestinians in the West Bank during the Oslo peace process, and continues to build settlements on Palestinian land (click for map). Election of relatively moderate Mahmoud Abbas as Palestinian Authority President and the Israeli disengagement plan (withdrawal from Gaza and four West Bank settlements) offered new hope of peace. See Israeli-Palestinian Conflict Since Oslo

Israel has a population of over 6.5 million, of whom about 14.5% are Muslims and about 3% are Druze or Christian. Most of the remainder are Jews. Per capita GDP is about $23,000 and literacy rates are over 95%. Life expectancy is over 75 years, and infant mortality about 7 per thousand, comparing favorably with Europe and North America. The Palestinian areas account for about 2,800 square miles of the total territory. They have a population estimated at about 3 million, per capita GDP of under $2,000, literacy rate of about 86% and infant mortality of 33 per thousand.

(http://www.mideastweb.org/misrael.htm)

The vast difference in quality of life is directly due to the Jewish inhumanity towards the Palestinians, blockades, restrictions etc.

"Just in case that wasn't enough to rile the Arab world, Wilders also said, "If Jerusalem falls into the hands of the Muslims, Athens and Rome will be next."

waiting eagerly in the long line to fall into Muslim hands are:

-Königswusterhausen, Germany

-Clermont-Ferrand, France

-Aalborg, Denmark

-Kungsbacka, Sweden

-Liverpool, UK

-Little Rock, Arkansas

-Phoenix, Arizona

-Boise, Idaho

-Portland, Oregon

In the hills in Albania, blood feuds have been going on for centuries. The sides are so entrenched, there is no solution. Sadly the Middle East will be the same.

my solution: take all Hamas members, right wing Palestinians and right wing Israelis who don't want to live in peace on a cruise to the Antarctic. no cabins, deck chairs only, attire t-shirt and shorts, no socks and no shoes. cruise for 10 days. problem solved. shooting would be easier but a human right violation.

And after that, what would Israel-Palestine look like? Two states? One state with either the Palestinians or Israelis gone? Something else?

In the hills in Albania, blood feuds have been going on for centuries. The sides are so entrenched, there is no solution. Sadly the Middle East will be the same.

my solution: take all Hamas members, right wing Palestinians and right wing Israelis who don't want to live in peace on a cruise to the Antarctic. no cabins, deck chairs only, attire t-shirt and shorts, no socks and no shoes. cruise for 10 days. problem solved. shooting would be easier but a human right violation.

And after that, what would Israel-Palestine look like? Two states? One state with either the Palestinians or Israelis gone? Something else?

two states!

waiting eagerly in the long line to fall into Muslim hands are:

-Boise, Idaho

If they want Idaho I say we let them have it

This year they could not even find one girl who wanted to represent Idaho as Miss Idaho in the "Miss Ebonics USA" Pagent

"Just in case that wasn't enough to rile the Arab world, Wilders also said, "If Jerusalem falls into the hands of the Muslims, Athens and Rome will be next."

waiting eagerly in the long line to fall into Muslim hands are:

-Königswusterhausen, Germany

-Clermont-Ferrand, France

-Aalborg, Denmark

-Kungsbacka, Sweden

-Liverpool, UK

-Little Rock, Arkansas

-Phoenix, Arizona

-Boise, Idaho

-Portland, Oregon

Don't forget London-stan.

"Just in case that wasn't enough to rile the Arab world, Wilders also said, "If Jerusalem falls into the hands of the Muslims, Athens and Rome will be next."

waiting eagerly in the long line to fall into Muslim hands are:

-Königswusterhausen, Germany

-Clermont-Ferrand, France

-Aalborg, Denmark

-Kungsbacka, Sweden

-Liverpool, UK

-Little Rock, Arkansas

-Phoenix, Arizona

-Boise, Idaho

-Portland, Oregon

Don't forget London-stan.

Any statistics? Any figures? Any evidence? Give us some numbers.

BTW cartoons aren't acceptable.

You will have to ask Mr. Wilders about that.

The vast difference in quality of life is directly due to the Jewish inhumanity towards the Palestinians, blockades, restrictions etc.

They have been at war for 60 years and the restrictions are needed to prevent terrorism. What other country would be tolerant in the same situation?

The vast difference in quality of life is directly due to the Jewish inhumanity towards the Palestinians, blockades, restrictions etc.

They have been at war for 60 years and the restrictions are needed to prevent terrorism. What other country would be tolerant in the same situation?

It's not a matter of tolerance, it's a matter of following international law, and modern humanitarian practices.

Terrorism (home made rockets that land in empty fields) is a very convenient excuse to settle around all the aquifers in the land and starve the Arab children into understandable life-long resentment.

The vast difference in quality of life is directly due to the Jewish inhumanity towards the Palestinians, blockades, restrictions etc.

They have been at war for 60 years and the restrictions are needed to prevent terrorism. What other country would be tolerant in the same situation?

and the previous list of restrictions included childrens toys,pencils, maralade jam, chocolates etc which we all know would help aid terrorism activity, god forbid if someone got hurt from a Mars bar mortar

Both Egypt and Israel have eased up on the restrictions, but if Hamas - who the Palestinians elected - did not insist on firing missles into Israel, they would have not had this rule in the first place.

Terrorism (home made rockets that land in empty fields) .

Many Israeli civilians have been killed and lets not forget all the suicide bombings before Israel built a wall that has mostly stopped it.

Some posters seem to forget that there is a reason for many of the difficulties of Palestinian life and that they have been responsible for much of it.