Phantom Atm Cash Withdrawals

[OJAS]

Over the past couple of years both my Thai wife and I have been the victims of mystery debits from our Krung Thai and Kasikorn savings accounts, which apparently relate to cash withdrawals from ATM's. These withdrawals have all taken place on dates when we have been nowhere near an ATM ourselves, however.

Quite apart from all the hassle which we have encountered in seeking to get such debits reversed, the questions arise as to (1) why we should be put to such inconvenience in the first place, and (2) whether they arise from some fundamental flaw in the Thai banking system. In my case, the 3 phantom withdrawals of which I have, to date, been the victim total 50,000 THB, so we are not talking about an insignificant amount.

To enable me to gauge whether this a widespread problem or whether my wife and I are particularly unlucky, I would be grateful to learn about other posters' experiences with phantom withdrawals from savings accounts with Krung Thai, Kasikorn or any other bank.

It might be worth noting that I have never been the victim of similar phantom withdrawals from my UK current account over its entire 40+-year lifetime (although my fingers are firmly crossed that these do not prove to be famous last words).

[PattayaParent]

Yep, had experience with phantom withdrawals from a Kasikorn account about 13 years ago, so it's a problem that has never been solved.

[thaihome]

Have had Bangkok Bank and SCB accounts for some 10 years now, never had a phantom withdrawal before. Have had ones I didn't remember, but that doesn't make them "phantoms".

TH

[chainarong]

My Son had money taken out of Kbank 2009, by card , first we heard of this when DSI phoned , the only problem , he had no cards with KBank, at that time , so he got refunded.

Edited November 30, 2010 by chainarong

[Berkshire]

I've had my ATM card with Bangkok Bank going on 10 years and have never had a "phantom" withdrawal. My understanding is that in nearly all of these cases, the "phantom" is someone closest to you who also has a card/access to your account. My question is: Do you trust your wife?

[CharlieH]

I've had my ATM card with Bangkok Bank going on 10 years and have never had a "phantom" withdrawal. My understanding is that in nearly all of these cases, the "phantom" is someone closest to you who also has a card/access to your account. My question is: Do you trust your wife?

Get the SMS alert added, its FREE and everytime the card is used you'll get an SMS alert sent to your mobile as to what amount and how. The alert by my experience comes within seconds of the card being used. That would mean you can act very quickly and should have less hassle when reporting problems.

(Kasikorn)

Never had any issues myself and hope I never have but TIT but that SMS alert i think is a great idea.

Edited November 30, 2010 by CharlieH

[CharlieH]

duplicate removed

Edited November 30, 2010 by CharlieH

[straycat911]

I had SCB account, a few times ive had some cash missing from my account and i am the only one whom has access to it, my wife has her own account in her name and one in my name

but latly, ive had money added to my account for no reason, i cant explain it, ive phoned all my companies ive worked for or currently working for, and not one of them said they added the money, so i kept it,

its happened approx 3 times

[falang07]

Get the SMS alert added, its FREE

just a small correction, it is not free, 20 or 30 baht per month, but still OK

[Pib]

Have had two accounts with Bangkok Bank for many years...no phantom withdrawals to date. But for a few seconds tonight when I was logged onto Bangkok Bank internet banking to pay a utility bill I saw a 200 Baht charge for today called ATM Fee and it was codes as Automatic deduction. But the wife and I didn't get close to an ATM today. Then it dawned on me, my ATM/Debit Be1st card has a 200 baht annual fee and since I did get my current card years back around Oct/Nov timeframe I'm sure that is what the mystery fee was.

[phaethon]

Have had two accounts with Bangkok Bank for many years...no phantom withdrawals to date. But for a few seconds tonight when I was logged onto Bangkok Bank internet banking to pay a utility bill I saw a 200 Baht charge for today called ATM Fee and it was codes as Automatic deduction. But the wife and I didn't get close to an ATM today. Then it dawned on me, my ATM/Debit Be1st card has a 200 baht annual fee and since I did get my current card years back around Oct/Nov timeframe I'm sure that is what the mystery fee was.

I too had a 200B charge on my Kasikorn account which came up as an ATM charge but did not correspond to any known ATM activity. I rang in and it turned out, like you to be the annual fee. No idea why it showed up as an ATM transaction though. Don't time fly..?

[Pib]

Yea, if they had coded it as ATM Card Annual Fee or ATM Annual Fee versus just ATM Fee I wouldn't have given it a second thought because my brain would have figured it out much faster. And now days, my brain needs all the hints it can get.

[daxbr]

Last year I suspected I was a victim of phantom withdrawals too. Kept keeping record and found out that sometimes kbank does not post withdrawals immediately. Result is higher balance that drops suspiciously quick after a few days.

I know, I know..... getting old.

[manarak]

read on ATM skimming fraud.

your card has probably been copied and the code filmed when you have input it.

[RHCP]

read on ATM skimming fraud.

your card has probably been copied and the code filmed when you have input it.

Just to add, be wary of isolated ATMs that may be vulnerable. There have been instances of hidden cameras and reading devices attached to obtain all necessary information to create a copy.

[OJAS]

read on ATM skimming fraud.

Do you have a specific thread in mind? If so, grateful if you could post a link.

[ianguygil]

Anybody who has had unauthorized withdrawals from their account should treat this as an urgent matter. do not spend time on this forum. First call the Bank and block the card, as somebody may have skimmed your card. Second, go to the bank in question and report it. They will take you through all the next steps as far as police reporting etc. Never just live with the fact that unexplained withdrawals are being made. If somebody has in fact skimmed your card they can use it as often as they want!

The real protection for this is to use the whole Chip and PIN approach, which makes it effectively impossible to skim the card as they cannot skim the Chip. But that is a huge investment and undertaking as all ATMs need to be upgraded (and there are tens of thousands of ATMs in this country) and the hundreds of thousands of EDC (merchant) terminals also need to be upgraded. So while we have started to issue Chip and PIN cards, it needs to be a nationwide effort for all banks, not a bank by bank approach, as the ATM pool (use of other bank ATMs) would just offer a back door for criminals.

Please note that this nation wide approach was the approach taken in the UK. And during the interim, while the migration was in process, they actually had an increase in fraud.

[OJAS]

Anybody who has had unauthorized withdrawals from their account should treat this as an urgent matter. do not spend time on this forum. First call the Bank and block the card, as somebody may have skimmed your card. Second, go to the bank in question and report it. They will take you through all the next steps as far as police reporting etc. Never just live with the fact that unexplained withdrawals are being made. If somebody has in fact skimmed your card they can use it as often as they want!

The real protection for this is to use the whole Chip and PIN approach, which makes it effectively impossible to skim the card as they cannot skim the Chip. But that is a huge investment and undertaking as all ATMs need to be upgraded (and there are tens of thousands of ATMs in this country) and the hundreds of thousands of EDC (merchant) terminals also need to be upgraded. So while we have started to issue Chip and PIN cards, it needs to be a nationwide effort for all banks, not a bank by bank approach, as the ATM pool (use of other bank ATMs) would just offer a back door for criminals.

Please note that this nation wide approach was the approach taken in the UK. And during the interim, while the migration was in process, they actually had an increase in fraud.

To amplify my original post, I have, to date, been the victim of 3 phantom ATM withdrawals:-

(1) 20,000 THB from my Krung Thai account in January 2009

(2) 10,000 THB from my Krung Thai account last June

(3) 20,000 THB from my Kasikorn account on 22 November

Both Krung Thai cases were clearly isolated incidents since neither was followed over the next few days by further mystery debits suggesting fraudulent use of my ATM card. I gather that the lifetime of a cloned card is normally only a couple of days at most. In any event, I live in a small village between Ban Phe and Klaeng in Rayong Province, which is somewhat off the beaten track from hotspot fraud areas such as Bangkok, Pattaya, Phuket and Samui.

The recent Kasikorn case has already been reported to both my local branch and Bangkok HQ. I have now instigated regular (i.e. at least once daily) checks of my account with the K-Cyberbanking online facility, and the latest check which I have just made has not revealed any subsequent untoward transactions. Since 9 days have now elapsed since the latest phantom withdrawal, it is looking increasingly likely that this, too, is an isolated incident.

[billd766]

I've had my ATM card with Bangkok Bank going on 10 years and have never had a "phantom" withdrawal. My understanding is that in nearly all of these cases, the "phantom" is someone closest to you who also has a card/access to your account. My question is: Do you trust your wife?

My answer is that I trust my wife 100% and have done for 17 years.

We have joint accounts, single accounts with 2 cards, she has been on several of my credit cards and I have never had a problem.

She has full access to all our accounts both in Thailand and in the UK.

I suspect that your understanding may not be totally correct.

BTW, how much do you trust your wife?

[ianguygil]

Anybody who has had unauthorized withdrawals from their account should treat this as an urgent matter. do not spend time on this forum. First call the Bank and block the card, as somebody may have skimmed your card. Second, go to the bank in question and report it. They will take you through all the next steps as far as police reporting etc. Never just live with the fact that unexplained withdrawals are being made. If somebody has in fact skimmed your card they can use it as often as they want!

The real protection for this is to use the whole Chip and PIN approach, which makes it effectively impossible to skim the card as they cannot skim the Chip. But that is a huge investment and undertaking as all ATMs need to be upgraded (and there are tens of thousands of ATMs in this country) and the hundreds of thousands of EDC (merchant) terminals also need to be upgraded. So while we have started to issue Chip and PIN cards, it needs to be a nationwide effort for all banks, not a bank by bank approach, as the ATM pool (use of other bank ATMs) would just offer a back door for criminals.

Please note that this nation wide approach was the approach taken in the UK. And during the interim, while the migration was in process, they actually had an increase in fraud.

To amplify my original post, I have, to date, been the victim of 3 phantom ATM withdrawals:-

(1) 20,000 THB from my Krung Thai account in January 2009

(2) 10,000 THB from my Krung Thai account last June

(3) 20,000 THB from my Kasikorn account on 22 November

Both Krung Thai cases were clearly isolated incidents since neither was followed over the next few days by further mystery debits suggesting fraudulent use of my ATM card. I gather that the lifetime of a cloned card is normally only a couple of days at most. In any event, I live in a small village between Ban Phe and Klaeng in Rayong Province, which is somewhat off the beaten track from hotspot fraud areas such as Bangkok, Pattaya, Phuket and Samui.

The recent Kasikorn case has already been reported to both my local branch and Bangkok HQ. I have now instigated regular (i.e. at least once daily) checks of my account with the K-Cyberbanking online facility, and the latest check which I have just made has not revealed any subsequent untoward transactions. Since 9 days have now elapsed since the latest phantom withdrawal, it is looking increasingly likely that this, too, is an isolated incident.

Without being difficult here, the lifetime of a cloned card is as long as the lifetime of a normal card if you do not get the original card cancelled. This is just like copying a disk, if the binaries match it is the same card to a machine (ATM).

Please remember, I am an IT guy and a banker. This is not an opinion. There is nothing transient about an cloned ATM card. It is just that people normally notice the money is missing and cancel the card within "only a couple of days at most"

Edited December 1, 2010 by ianguygil

[Tropicalevo]

Anybody who has had unauthorized withdrawals from their account should treat this as an urgent matter. do not spend time on this forum. First call the Bank and block the card, as somebody may have skimmed your card. Second, go to the bank in question and report it. They will take you through all the next steps as far as police reporting etc. Never just live with the fact that unexplained withdrawals are being made. If somebody has in fact skimmed your card they can use it as often as they want!

The real protection for this is to use the whole Chip and PIN approach, which makes it effectively impossible to skim the card as they cannot skim the Chip. But that is a huge investment and undertaking as all ATMs need to be upgraded (and there are tens of thousands of ATMs in this country) and the hundreds of thousands of EDC (merchant) terminals also need to be upgraded. So while we have started to issue Chip and PIN cards, it needs to be a nationwide effort for all banks, not a bank by bank approach, as the ATM pool (use of other bank ATMs) would just offer a back door for criminals.

Please note that this nation wide approach was the approach taken in the UK. And during the interim, while the migration was in process, they actually had an increase in fraud.

Listen to this man.

Change the card. It only costs a fraction of what you have lost.

I would guess that as the withdrawals are a long time apart time wise, then this is probably an 'inside' job. Crooks normally bleed the account as quickly as possible as they know they could be caught.

Who else is in your house could have access to the ATM card?

[OJAS]

Change the card. It only costs a fraction of what you have lost.

Having now lost faith with both Krung Thai and Kasikorn in the light of these 3 incidents, I wish to switch my allegiance to a more reliable bank. If I were simply to change my Kasikorn card, there is absolutely no guarantee that the same thing would not happen time and time again, particularly given PattayaParent's, chainarong's and daxbr's less than flattering comments about them in this thread.

It would appear from thaihome's, Berkshire's and Pib's responses that Bangkok Bank might be the least prone to the phantom ATM withdrawal problem. However, before deciding whether or not to open an account with them, I would be grateful for feedback from other Bangkok Bank savings account holders on their experiences in this regard.

Who else is in your house could have access to the ATM card?

No-one - I keep it in my wallet which is close to me at all times.

Edited December 1, 2010 by OJAS

[SiamRose]

BTW, how much do you trust your wife?

I don't trust myself 100%, and I trust myself more than anyone else.

[SiamRose]

Please remember, I am an IT guy and a banker.

Ian, as an IT guy and a banker, how often do "phantom withdrawals" where there is no human involvement, happen?

[greasemonkey]

Long story cut short. my cards were removed and replaced in a Hotel in Vientiane. I only discoverd this about four days later, due to some missing cash that was inthe same bag. Reported the suspected copying and had a security lock put on them. ie cannot now be used unless I phone company first.

Two months later, after returning home, had a letter off the bank telling me ATM card was used in Nong Khai. They had no way of knowing PIN, couldnt even tell it t you myself, just comes automatically when I go to ATM. So how did they know it? No idea

All Im saying is the crooks sometimes appear to wait a long time before they use a cloned card.

[ianguygil]

Please remember, I am an IT guy and a banker.

Ian, as an IT guy and a banker, how often do "phantom withdrawals" where there is no human involvement, happen?

It would have to be an error in the bank accounting system (Core Banking) or in the ATM. Unlikely but possible, but it would show up in the balancing process as more money would show on the books as having been handed to customers than was actually handed out.

So, it is possible, but highly unlikely in a modern bank with rigorous testing processes, and it would show up during reconciliation.

[ianguygil]

Long story cut short. my cards were removed and replaced in a Hotel in Vientiane. I only discoverd this about four days later, due to some missing cash that was inthe same bag. Reported the suspected copying and had a security lock put on them. ie cannot now be used unless I phone company first.

Two months later, after returning home, had a letter off the bank telling me ATM card was used in Nong Khai. They had no way of knowing PIN, couldnt even tell it t you myself, just comes automatically when I go to ATM. So how did they know it? No idea

All Im saying is the crooks sometimes appear to wait a long time before they use a cloned card.

If you have used the ATM card in Laos or in Nong Khai, somebody may have filmed you entering the PIN (or just observed). So if it happened like this it would need for you to be targeted and for a gang to include somebody in the hotel.

Please remember that the average ATM PIN is 4 digits. So they would have only a 1 in 9,999 chance of guessing your PIN.

Always stand up very close to the ATM when you enter your PIN. Close it off so it is not easy to film or observe from a distance. Always look to see if there is a small camera anywhere on the ATM as you all know how small webcams can be nowadays.

Edited December 2, 2010 by ianguygil

[SiamRose]

It would have to be an error in the bank accounting system (Core Banking) or in the ATM. Unlikely but possible, but it would show up in the balancing process as more money would show on the books as having been handed to customers than was actually handed out.

Yes, that makes sense. What about actual withdrawals where the money is given to the wrong person or the wrong account is debited, can the bank detect those? In that situation the person who uses the ATM gets the money they ask for. The person whose account was debited will claim they didn't take any money out, but the bank books will balance. So presumably the bank will assume that it is the customer who is at fault?

[Tolley]

A good Thai friend of mine had 100k baht taken from her Kasikorn account.

She got a Thai lawyer and all but the bank refused to refund the money.

Apparently it is not that uncommon and when she went to complain to the bank there was a women there who had 3m baht taken from her account.

Kasikorn seems to come up a lot in these ATM scams. It seems likely that they may involve bank employees ie inside jobs

Edited December 2, 2010 by Tolley

[ianguygil]

It would have to be an error in the bank accounting system (Core Banking) or in the ATM. Unlikely but possible, but it would show up in the balancing process as more money would show on the books as having been handed to customers than was actually handed out.

Yes, that makes sense. What about actual withdrawals where the money is given to the wrong person or the wrong account is debited, can the bank detect those? In that situation the person who uses the ATM gets the money they ask for. The person whose account was debited will claim they didn't take any money out, but the bank books will balance. So presumably the bank will assume that it is the customer who is at fault?

There is a VERY tight link between the ATM card and the accounts. So I don't really see how that can happen. But as I say it is just software so it would need to be a programming and testing error. I think that is hugely unlikely though.

Please note that all the major Thai banks use Western software to run their ATM and Core Banking systems. The same as your banks in the, US, UK and Oz use.