Dependancy - Are You Doing Your Bit?

[torasap]

I find it wrong to feed dependancy, so hopefully I don't. However I do send my parents-in-law 5000 baht every month so as to help them pay some of the bills and buy food. Sending more than that (in my case) might encourage the in-law family to not work, though I'm not completely sure where the limits go. The parents of my wife get similar amounts from their other children too (except for one of the daughters).

Actually, the UK social welfare model (which many other countries follow too) is based on a similar idea - keep food on their tables, yet still motivate them to work. Not saying that it's the only right solution in the world, but I do like that idea.

[GuestHouse]

I find it wrong to feed dependancy, so hopefully I don't. However I do send my parents-in-law 5000 baht every month so as to help them pay some of the bills and buy food. Sending more than that (in my case) might encourage the in-law family to not work, though I'm not completely sure where the limits go. The parents of my wife get similar amounts from their other children too (except for one of the daughters).

Actually, the UK social welfare model (which many other countries follow too) is based on a similar idea - keep food on their tables, yet still motivate them to work. Not saying that it's the only right solution in the world, but I do like that idea.

I'd disagree with you on that Torasap, I think the UK welfare system is a prime example of how exactly to go about creating dependancy.

[torasap]

I'd disagree with you on that Torasap, I think the UK welfare system is a prime example of how exactly to go about creating dependancy.

You may be right - but I do know that if I were unemployed in a high-cost country such as the UK, then living on 65 GBP (≈ 100 USD) per week would certainly motivate me to get a job. And most others too, I suppose - or have I missed anything here?

[Tod Daniels]

I’ve seen the exact scenario painted by the O/P happen before when a foreigner suddenly gets ‘in-the-mix’ regarding thai in-laws and the obligatory extended thai family.

Sorry this post is long, but it’s true and nearly mirrors the O/P’s story. .

I knew one thai woman who had a small food shop, hair/nail salon, a video rental shop, a moto-bike repair shop as well as a small mini-mart lining the front of her family's property on a busy highway thru their small village up past Saraburi. The family raised fish, pigs, and farmed rice on quite a sizeable amount of land across the road from their property, and had quite a lucrative home brew ‘Lao Khao’ business going on too. They'd sell shots in the morning to the thais who worked at the cement factory up the road from them. Every nite they’d measure out shots in little plastic bags, and then sell them starting at about 4:30-5AM. Sometimes 1 or 2 HUNDRED shots would be sold in the span of just a couple hours! (IF you work at a cement factory I guess you ALWAYS want a buzz on! )

Certainly these people were not rich; but for thais in the middle of nowhere thailand they were more than just getting by. Even though it was quite a small village their place was the ‘hub’ of activity, everyone would come and gossip, sit around, eat, etc.

While I was never involved with the woman, I knew her story; that she’d worked in the bangkok bar industry for 5 years, scrimped, saved, never lent or borrowed money, didn’t drink alcohol, smoke, or do drugs, etc. Then after 5 years she ‘retired’. Every thing she had saved up went for the things she built, bought and managed, employing family and friends for the various shops. I spent many an enjoyable day and evening there visiting with nearly every person in the village.

Then she met a foreigner thru a thai friend. He married her and started giving a very generous allowance to both her and the in-laws. Suddenly, brothers, aunts, uncles, cousins and about anyone else who crawled outta the woodwork needed financial help.

Several years’ later whist driving thru the village, I passed what before had been a very prosperous stretch of road fronting their property. It looked like a bomb had gone off in a garbage dump!

Every single shop was closed; in fact they were gutted of anything remotely useable and reduced to just concrete shells. The extended family was drunkenly lazing around in hammocks, chairs, empty whiskey, beer bottles and garbage was strewn all over the ground. There were two new Isuzu trucks parked under some trees, a few new Honda Clicks and a new Fino too.

The land opposite their houses which previously had been farmed religiously was fallow; the ‘iron buffalo’ was mired past its axles in a field nearly obscured by weeds. The fish ponds were reduced to just small mud holes, and the pig pens long since emptied of animals.

Actually, I thought there had been a natural disaster or a toxic spill. The difference between what I’d seen BEFORE the foreigner got into the mix and after was just staggering.

I stopped in to ‘visit’ what before had been a happy, close knit, semi prosperous family and was met with more open hostility than I’ve ever experienced in thailand before. Even inquiring about the woman raised their suspicion. Given the redness of their eyes and their alcohol slurred thai, I didn’t push it.

At least to me, it was really sad to have seen than happen in the span of just a few years especially as the woman seemed to have a good head on her shoulders as far as business savvy, and acquiring a modicum of wealth.

I know this many not be the way it always goes here with thai/foreign marriages, but it goes this way enough that it’s certainly NOT an uncommon occurrence.

[fletchsmile]

You may find this guide useful:

Pretty much all the women with farang men fall in column 3, but none will admit it .

Thoroughly enjoying everyone explaining why this is not the case in 'their' case.

Think you also need to get out more F1 Sounds like you and GuestHouse have similarly narrow lives in the people you meet and friends you have.

The part you and GH overlook is that you are so set in your ways and prejudiced on Thai-foreign relationships that you will not attract people from other walks of life to befriend you. They'll simply ignore you or avoid you.

At least you picked up that the matrix is very much tongue-in-cheek

[MrsMills]

I know this many not be the way it always goes here with thai/foreign marriages, but it goes this way enough that it's certainly NOT an uncommon occurrence.

Farang/Farang marriages don't exactly do very well do they ?

The divorce rate in America for first marriage, vs second or third marriage

50% percent of first marriages, 67% of second and 74% of third marriages end indivorce, according to Jennifer Baker of the Forest Institute of Professional Psychology in Springfield, Missouri.

According to enrichment journal on the divorce rate in America:

The divorce rate in America for first marriage is 41%

The divorce rate in America for second marriage is 60%

The divorce rate in America for third marriage is 73%

When the costs are taken into account, emotional and financial, the lawyers fees etc etc, lost house, payments made monthly, and all other losses that occur in a western divorce, it may be more economical to fail in Thailand.

How many members here have been divorced ? I'd hazard a guess that it's a large percentage of the posters, includes me too by the way.

Edited December 4, 2010 by MrsMills

[MrsMills]

ooops

Edited December 4, 2010 by MrsMills

[GuestHouse]

I know this many not be the way it always goes here with thai/foreign marriages, but it goes this way enough that it's certainly NOT an uncommon occurrence.

Farang/Farang marriages don't exactly do very well do they ?

The divorce rate in America for first marriage, vs second or third marriage

50% percent of first marriages, 67% of second and 74% of third marriages end indivorce, according to Jennifer Baker of the Forest Institute of Professional Psychology in Springfield, Missouri.

According to enrichment journal on the divorce rate in America:

The divorce rate in America for first marriage is 41%

The divorce rate in America for second marriage is 60%

The divorce rate in America for third marriage is 73%

When the costs are taken into account, emotional and financial, the lawyers fees etc etc, lost house, payments made monthly, and all other losses that occur in a western divorce, it may be more economical to fail in Thailand.

How many members here have been divorced ? I'd hazard a guess that it's a large percentage of the posters, includes me too by the way.

You are totally missing the point - The topic of discussion is not divorce in west or east, but the impact of handing out easy cash to otherwise hardworking families and in doing so removing the incentives for self help and creating dependancy.

Your topic about Divorce impacts West and East might make an interesting thread of their own........

Edited December 4, 2010 by GuestHouse

[GuestHouse]

Think you also need to get out more F1 Sounds like you and GuestHouse have similarly narrow lives in the people you meet and friends you have.

The part you and GH overlook is that you are so set in your ways and prejudiced on Thai-foreign relationships that you will not attract people from other walks of life to befriend you. They'll simply ignore you or avoid you.

Ah you've had a couple of cracks in this thread Fletch, but again, in your haste to score points you've missed the whole point of the thread - It is not a negative view of Thai Farang relationships it is about a negative aspect of some Thai Farang relationships and the wider problem of destroying self reliance and creating dependancy - If I repeat this enough times with the message get through?

And thanks for your concern over my social life and social circle - a couple of nights out a week are enough for me, I'd like to do more but getting up fresh for work gets in the way, though that in itself offers a few opportunities to meet people and form friendships - See reference to having worked for many years with Phil above.

[mark45y]

I got rid of my long time GF that should help her family become more self sufficient. I went through my budget today. Making some adjustments to my lifestyle as a result of the falling dollar. I can only go out four nights a week with attractive companionship and a decent European meal. Or five nights with the ladies and cow men gai three nights. Or 7 nights with the ladies and I stay home and eat noodles or rice porridge. I think the four nights is the proper balance of the two priorities in my life. When I hit 70 I think I will cut the female companionship back to 3 nights.

[jazzbo]

The moral from reading several of the above stories: Find a Thai family that is already lazy when you meet them.

[craigt3365]

I got rid of my long time GF that should help her family become more self sufficient. I went through my budget today. Making some adjustments to my lifestyle as a result of the falling dollar. I can only go out four nights a week with attractive companionship and a decent European meal. Or five nights with the ladies and cow men gai three nights. Or 7 nights with the ladies and I stay home and eat noodles or rice porridge. I think the four nights is the proper balance of the two priorities in my life. When I hit 70 I think I will cut the female companionship back to 3 nights.

Fantastic!!!!!

[fletchsmile]

Think you also need to get out more F1 Sounds like you and GuestHouse have similarly narrow lives in the people you meet and friends you have.

The part you and GH overlook is that you are so set in your ways and prejudiced on Thai-foreign relationships that you will not attract people from other walks of life to befriend you. They'll simply ignore you or avoid you.

Ah you've had a couple of cracks in this thread Fletch, but again, in your haste to score points you've missed the whole point of the thread - It is not a negative view of Thai Farang relationships it is about a negative aspect of some Thai Farang relationships and the wider problem of destroying self reliance and creating dependancy - If I repeat this enough times with the message get through?

And thanks for your concern over my social life and social circle - a couple of nights out a week are enough for me, I'd like to do more but getting up fresh for work gets in the way, though that in itself offers a few opportunities to meet people and form friendships - See reference to having worked for many years with Phil above.

Don't you think it's time you moved on about moralising on life in Thailand? The question isn't if you repeat it enough will it get thru? The question is why do you keep repeating it? 60 million Thais couldn't care less what you post on Thai Visa

Is your own life so inadequate that you have to pick holes in the lives of the Thais and foreigners, including your own former friends who live here. Or perhaps you feel you're missing something. He chose one path and you another

Your friend in your story perhaps even thinks he's done well in life. He's probably happy that he doesn't waste his time judging others on Thai Visa. Perhaps he felt with judgemental friends he needed a radical change and had to get away from it all

Learn a lesson from the Thais and Buddhism and stop comparing others lives to your own. You'll be happier for it.

People like you and F1 frequently miss the point. The people you associate with in Thailand are not a reflection of Thai society, they are a reflection of you.

Edited December 4, 2010 by fletchsmile

[GuestHouse]

Don't you think it's time you moved on about moralising on life in Thailand? Is your own life so inadequate that you have to pick holes in the lives of the Thais and foreigners, including your own former friends who live here. Or perhaps you feel you're missing something. He chose one path and you another

The friend in your story perhaps even thinks he's done well in life. He's probably happy that he doesn't waste his time judging others on Thai Visa

People like you and F1 frequently miss the point. The people you associate with in Thailand are not a reflection of Thai society, they are a reflection of you.

Forgive me Flech, I mean really please accept my sincere apologies.

I have related an experience that dates back from its first starting almost twenty years - a guy throwing money at his Thai wife's family and the resulting impact on their lives.

Others have related similar experiences, so it would on the face of it seem there is a validity to my my own observations.

If this has somehow struck a nerve in your own personal life and the choices you have made in Thailand, I hope you'll accept that this is purely coincidental, I haven't in anyway set out to make personal attack on you.

You've mentioned negativity towards Thai Farang relationships a few times - can you point out where I am being negative about Thai Farang relationships beyond making my observation on a particular set of behaviours (dishing out easy money) which have nothing at all to do with the nationality of the couples involved - other than that they happen to be Thai/Farang..... but wouldn't you expect that on a Thailand related expat forum?

Over to you, show my negativity anywhere in this whole thread.

Alternatively would you like to expand on the following by telling me exactly who is you think I associate with in Thailand:

People like you and F1 frequently miss the point. The people you associate with in Thailand are not a reflection of Thai society, they are a reflection of you.

You have after all been telling me I need to expand my social circle - Please explain what you think my social circle is an in what direction you feel I need to expand it?

Edited December 4, 2010 by GuestHouse

[jazzbo]

In contrast to post #40 above, I find that after I am out with the ladies as much as described I end up giving them money to go off by themselves and have a good time and just leave me alone.

[F1fanatic]

I find it wrong to feed dependancy, so hopefully I don't. However I do send my parents-in-law 5000 baht every month so as to help them pay some of the bills and buy food. Sending more than that (in my case) might encourage the in-law family to not work, though I'm not completely sure where the limits go. The parents of my wife get similar amounts from their other children too (except for one of the daughters).

Actually, the UK social welfare model (which many other countries follow too) is based on a similar idea - keep food on their tables, yet still motivate them to work. Not saying that it's the only right solution in the world, but I do like that idea.

I could be wrong, but I thought the average Thai wage was around 8,000 baht p.m.?

So if you and your wife's siblings (you didn't say how many) are all paying these amounts - they are v wealthy by Thai standards and have no need to work - they are lucky to get lots of money from the in-laws.

You ARE feeding dependancy, but more importantly are feeding the perception that its good to send your kids out to find farangs - who will send you lots of money.

[mark45y]

I find it wrong to feed dependancy, so hopefully I don't. However I do send my parents-in-law 5000 baht every month so as to help them pay some of the bills and buy food. Sending more than that (in my case) might encourage the in-law family to not work, though I'm not completely sure where the limits go. The parents of my wife get similar amounts from their other children too (except for one of the daughters).

Actually, the UK social welfare model (which many other countries follow too) is based on a similar idea - keep food on their tables, yet still motivate them to work. Not saying that it's the only right solution in the world, but I do like that idea.

I could be wrong, but I thought the average Thai wage was around 8,000 baht p.m.?

So if you and your wife's siblings (you didn't say how many) are all paying these amounts - they are v wealthy by Thai standards and have no need to work - they are lucky to get lots of money from the in-laws.

You ARE feeding dependancy, but more importantly are feeding the perception that its good to send your kids out to find farangs - who will send you lots of money.

All of the older females in my three families (Canada, US and England) of in laws told the younger females, "dear it is just as easy to fall in love with a rich man." Take away your racism and you have the same thing, yes?

[jazzbo]

When I first came to Thailand as a volunteer, the husband of one of the teachers assisted me as a driver. I mentioned to him that I had worked in the oil&gas business in the USA ... He said that he had worked for ARAMCO in Saudi Arabia. I said 'Oh... are you a petroleum engineer?' He said 'No ... janitor.'

Money in Thailand comes from all sorts of international sources ...

[GuestHouse]

All of the older females in my three families (Canada, US and England) of in laws told the younger females, "dear it is just as easy to fall in love with a rich man." Take away your racism and you have the same thing, yes?

Ah but how many told their daughters, go work in a 'bar' turning tricks so you can send money home to your dear old mum and dad until you manage to find a rich guy?

Put aside the race card your waving and look at the reality.

[Kwasaki]

Think you also need to get out more F1 Sounds like you and GuestHouse have similarly narrow lives in the people you meet and friends you have.

The part you and GH overlook is that you are so set in your ways and prejudiced on Thai-foreign relationships that you will not attract people from other walks of life to befriend you. They'll simply ignore you or avoid you.

Ah you've had a couple of cracks in this thread Fletch, but again, in your haste to score points you've missed the whole point of the thread - It is not a negative view of Thai Farang relationships it is about a negative aspect of some Thai Farang relationships and the wider problem of destroying self reliance and creating dependancy - If I repeat this enough times with the message get through?

And thanks for your concern over my social life and social circle - a couple of nights out a week are enough for me, I'd like to do more but getting up fresh for work gets in the way, though that in itself offers a few opportunities to meet people and form friendships - See reference to having worked for many years with Phil above.

Don't you think it's time you moved on about moralising on life in Thailand? The question isn't if you repeat it enough will it get thru? The question is why do you keep repeating it? 60 million Thais couldn't care less what you post on Thai Visa

Is your own life so inadequate that you have to pick holes in the lives of the Thais and foreigners, including your own former friends who live here. Or perhaps you feel you're missing something. He chose one path and you another

Your friend in your story perhaps even thinks he's done well in life. He's probably happy that he doesn't waste his time judging others on Thai Visa. Perhaps he felt with judgemental friends he needed a radical change and had to get away from it all

Learn a lesson from the Thais and Buddhism and stop comparing others lives to your own. You'll be happier for it.

People like you and F1 frequently miss the point. The people you associate with in Thailand are not a reflection of Thai society, they are a reflection of you.

+1 +2 but then I'm dumb talking about patients instead of Staff.

[MJP]

Blame  the stupid farang, my wife worked when I met her on not on her idle back and yes I say idle because bargilrs could actually get a real job if they wanted and have a  bit of self esteem, but hey ho opening your legs is  easy work and eays money. Its not only the curse of Thailand although thais seem to aim solely at cash above all other things including principles.

My wife once said it would have  been easy to be  a bargirl but instead  went to BKK at 14 yrs odl from Issan, shared rented  rooms with many others continued e ducating herself to degree level and finsihed all that  at about 24 years old and then got a  full time job for 11000 baht a month. Was it easy?/ Nope but she holds her head up.

Shes  still working 5 years later  and more than ever.

Surprised she had time to meet a Foreign gentleman whilst spending all her time studying and working. How on earth did you ever meet her ? I know many Nurses that are single not by choice, but they never have time to meet anyone, and the chances of being in the position to meet a foreigner are practically zero.

How do so many here manage it ? It seems very strange that so many people on internet forums never met their Gf or wife in a bar, 99% of men I know met their Gf or wife in a bar, why is it so different on anonymous forums ?

Many many guys in the west meet their Gf in a Bar, Disco etc, why is it so different here?

You do? 

[fletchsmile]

People like you and F1 frequently miss the point. The people you associate with in Thailand are not a reflection of Thai society, they are a reflection of you.

You have after all been telling me I need to expand my social circle - Please explain what you think my social circle is an in what direction you feel I need to expand it?

Let's just say in the many years I've worked in Thailand, I've worked with thousands of Thai people in good jobs that don't fit your stereotypes. Currently there are a few thousand wonderful Thais in my current organisation. You and F1 have obviously never been in that position:) I also meet people who do meet your stereotypes. I see a commonality in both. Most people are simply trying to make the best of the hand they've been dealt. One of the things I like about my Thai colleagues and friends is modesty. They see no need to get on their high horse and tell others how to live

You have your head up your ar** if you think foreigners marrying in to Thai families have much of an impact in Thai society, and the greater scheme of things. The destiny of Thais is in their own hands, not in guys like you and your mates buying fishing rods

Explaining how both you and F1 need to expand your social circles, would be equivalent to describing a Picasso to a four year old. We probably wouldn't get passed your question of what colour was it?"

[mark45y]

All of the older females in my three families (Canada, US and England) of in laws told the younger females, "dear it is just as easy to fall in love with a rich man." Take away your racism and you have the same thing, yes?

Ah but how many told their daughters, go work in a 'bar' turning tricks so you can send money home to your dear old mum and dad until you manage to find a rich guy?

Put aside the race card your waving and look at the reality.

The quote was reference Torosap's remark. He didn't mention bar girls. Are you assuming all women in Thailand who aspire to wealth are bar girls? Why would you start a discussion like that? Although Granny Higgins was quite a tart herself back in the day. I would not have been surprised at anything the woman said or did. Too bad she died. She liked me better than the other ones.

So my original remark stands. Thai women are no more likely to go after money than Western women. I see many differences in Thai and Western women but not the hunt for a wealthy husband. As far as the comparison between hookers and hi so.

What did the Colonel's Lady think?

Nobody never knew;

Somebody asked the Sergeant's Wife

An' she told 'em true!

When you get to a man in the case,

They're like a row of pins

for the colonel's Lady an' Judy O'Grady

are sisters under their skins

Nothing much has changed.

[mark45y]

In contrast to post #40 above, I find that after I am out with the ladies as much as described I end up giving them money to go off by themselves and have a good time and just leave me alone.

Use it or lose it. Just like any other muscle.

[torasap]

I could be wrong, but I thought the average Thai wage was around 8,000 baht p.m.?

It's a bit higher in Bangkok.

So if you and your wife's siblings (you didn't say how many) are all paying these amounts - they are v wealthy by Thai standards and have no need to work - they are lucky to get lots of money from the in-laws.

I certainly hope you are right about that. The parents are both too old to work now.

By the way, my wife has 2 siblings who also give money to their parents. Frankly, I'm not sure about the exact amounts, but they are in the same order of magnitude as what I send.

[GuestHouse]

All of the older females in my three families (Canada, US and England) of in laws told the younger females, "dear it is just as easy to fall in love with a rich man." Take away your racism and you have the same thing, yes?

Ah but how many told their daughters, go work in a 'bar' turning tricks so you can send money home to your dear old mum and dad until you manage to find a rich guy?

Put aside the race card your waving and look at the reality.

The quote was reference Torosap's remark. He didn't mention bar girls. Are you assuming all women in Thailand who aspire to wealth are bar girls? Why would you start a discussion like that? Although Granny Higgins was quite a tart herself back in the day. I would not have been surprised at anything the woman said or did. Too bad she died. She liked me better than the other ones.

So my original remark stands. Thai women are no more likely to go after money than Western women. I see many differences in Thai and Western women but not the hunt for a wealthy husband. As far as the comparison between hookers and hi so.

What did the Colonel's Lady think?

Nobody never knew;

Somebody asked the Sergeant's Wife

An' she told 'em true!

When you get to a man in the case,

They're like a row of pins

for the colonel's Lady an' Judy O'Grady

are sisters under their skins

Nothing much has changed.

I'll grant you it's a point of view that hasn't changed - but by no means the only point of view. It's longevity says nothing about its veracity.

[GuestHouse]

Post #54 Use it or lose it. Just like any other muscle... The muscle most in use -- as with a hundred or so other posts -- may be your imagination.

I take the view that it doesn't really matter if Marky's stories are true or not, what matters is are we having fun.

[mark45y]

Post #54 Use it or lose it. Just like any other muscle... The muscle most in use -- as with a hundred or so other posts -- may be your imagination.

There are some differences between you and I because of age.

I see the end of my life very clearly. I know I am finite. I can see the end.

I think, I could be wrong but you are much younger than I. I believe you think you are indestructible. I am not saying that in a bad way I used to feel that way too.

I do many things differently now that I am older. I have sex with more women because it would not surprise me if I had a heart attack tomorrow. I don't expect one but it would not be a surprise to anyone. I live a little fast for an old guy.

The first thing I gave up for sex was alcohol. It was difficult. I really liked beer. I especially liked English beer. The doctor told me I could not have both.

The second thing I gave up for sex was food. I have physical relationships with women on an empty stomach. My plumbing does not work as well on a full stomach. A big meal at a pub and all I am good for is a night watching, old war movies on TV.

When I walk down the street and see Lek and Pet and Dow I don't look at them the same way you do. I see them as perhaps my last fling, my last Tango on Paris.

I keep thinking of Willie Nelson and Willie said, “I outlived my pecker.” Willie is not that much older than I. Scary thought so I may work a little quicker tonight and maybe get in two if I'm lucky.

[mark45y]

Fun and a good read is no problem ... it is just that in my experience -- and the same goes for the 'usual suspects' in the Finance Forum -- those that have the most often talk about it the least.

Empty barrels make the most noise.

I go to the Wat to meditate. I empty my mind. I don't think. I don't speak. I don't write.

But I don't feel the purpose of coming to Thai Visa or any other written forum is contemplation. I think it is the exchange of ideas. And the exercise is not enhanced by everyone having the same idea.

One can voice empty platitudes or one can contribute meaningful thoughts to a discussion. If not meaningful at least interesting. Up to you.

[torasap]

Fun and a good read is no problem ... it is just that in my experience -- and the same goes for the 'usual suspects' in the Finance Forum -- those that have the most often talk about it the least.

Empty barrels make the most noise.

I go to the Wat to meditate. I empty my mind. I don't think. I don't speak. I don't write.

But I don't feel the purpose of coming to Thai Visa or any other written forum is contemplation. I think it is the exchange of ideas. And the exercise is not enhanced by everyone having the same idea.

One can voice empty platitudes or one can contribute meaningful thoughts to a discussion. If not meaningful at least interesting. Up to you.

You mean as in 'right speech'?