Face

[Thaipwriter]

I dunno about you but "Face" never seems to be working in my favour, whenever i experience a scenario where "face" is involved it normally puts me at a disadvantage and makes me feel used or cheated.......or a few thousand baht poorer

Does anybody use "face" to his or her's benefit when interacting with Thai's

[raro]

Straight answer: no. Don't make them lose face on purpose either. Just treat them normally.

To my understanding, the whole face issue is totally overvalued. Of course Thais feel pissed-off if you make them look stupid in front of others. But so would you, right?

And then there are of course those Pu Yais who are so self-inflated that the slightest doubt of their importance makes ###### break loose...just try to avoid them and you'll be fine.

Example...some years ago, I was standing at a red light, and someone crashed into my car from behind. He got out of the car and opened with "I'm a pilot of the Royal Thai Airfrce", pointing at his hat on the dashboard. I just cut him short, pointing out that he just crashed into my car and that we should get police and insurance over. He re-instated that he's a pilot and blablabla, so I said that I hope he can fly better than he drives. Finally our insurance guy showed up and it turned out that Mr. pilot had no insurance on his car. Major loss of face for the pilot, big laugh from my side, red face for my g/f and 5,000 Baht cash for the insurance guy.

Edited August 22, 2005 by raro

[Davey]

I don't actually think I completely understand the concept of gaining and losing 'face'. I've probably been in a situation where the lose of face has occured, however I just have not realised.

I've done some stupid things whilst accompanied by Thais, but I don't think it has resulted in the loss of face for anyone concerned, although that is probably me just not realising again.

Perhaps my Thai mates are far more laid back than most as they don't seem to be offended or embarresed by the sometimes stupid things I do, either that or they hide it well.

[Curt]

I don't think most Thais feel farangs have face.

[Fast Eddie]

I don't think most Thais feel farangs have face.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I sometimes get the same feeling. Or at the very least falang face is seen to be not so important as Thai face.

[barryofthailand]

I don't actually think I completely understand the concept of gaining and losing 'face'.  I've probably been in a situation where the lose of face has occured, however I just have not realised.

I've done some stupid things whilst accompanied by Thais, but I don't think it has resulted in the loss of face for anyone concerned, although that is probably me just not realising again.

Perhaps my Thai mates are far more laid back than most as they don't seem to be offended or embarresed by the sometimes stupid things I do, either that or they hide it well. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Losing face is when you embarace , or make someone look stupid. You wouldn't do it in your home country, so why do it in Thailand?

Barry

[drummer]

I'll be the first one to say that I don't understand "face", but it is a lot more involved that just "making someone look stupid" In many cases, if you are younger, you can't tell an older person something, even something that they have no way of knowing, without them losing face.

For example, neither you nor your girlfriend can tell her parents about the differences between Thai and Farang. It has to come from someone older/ more respected than the folks.

Also, if a Thai has a higher status than farang, it creates 'face' for them. I've a friend who insists on paying for everything because it makes face for him.

Thai's most certainly do think farang have 'face' - I notice in some instances where a face saving action / respect creating action is fully expected. If they didn't think that farang had afce, they wouldn't expect it.

"Face" is ingrained in Thai culture like, say, the idea of independence is in Western culture. Farang judge actions based on each person's desire to make their own decisions - something that is rather alien to many Thais. Farang generally do not recognize this - I know I do it a lot and don' identify it - and Thais do the same. judge people's actions on the desire to save face (and other things, of course!) automatically - without thinking that farang may not share their values.

Edited August 22, 2005 by drummer

[Davey]

I don't actually think I completely understand the concept of gaining and losing 'face'.  I've probably been in a situation where the lose of face has occured, however I just have not realised.

I've done some stupid things whilst accompanied by Thais, but I don't think it has resulted in the loss of face for anyone concerned, although that is probably me just not realising again.

Perhaps my Thai mates are far more laid back than most as they don't seem to be offended or embarresed by the sometimes stupid things I do, either that or they hide it well. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Losing face is when you embarace , or make someone look stupid. You wouldn't do it in your home country, so why do it in Thailand?

Barry

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You obviously haven't seen me back home in Newcastle then... and btw where does it say I embrace or make people look stupid? just curious

I don't do stupid things to show anyone up, I'm just naturally predisposed to be an idiot...

Come to think of it I can think of one incident when I done something I perhaps shouldn't have. I was in a village in Saraburi where most of my Thai friends live. We were in the back of a pick up truck when I pulled out a sizeable amount of money, about 6-7000 baht to hand to another friend (who is farang) as I owed him it, not the best thing to do I know (hindsight is a wonderful thing). No one said anything although nothing needed to be said.

[raro]

Talking about that seniority principle - also part of the whole issue....my secretary is 24 and rather smart. My driver is 51 and....my driver. Now the driver tries to tell the sec how to do the job and the sec doesn't dare to tell him to get lost. Even worse, she will do as he told her, at least until he's gone. Then she will come to see me and complain. Steep learning curve for her, but I insist on that she handles the problem, as she is in the company's hierarchy higher. And...it is getting better. By and by - in a Thai way - she is keeping him more and more at bay and she's gaining significant self confidence.

[OxfordWill]

Yes, I have had situations where face works in my favour, particularly when I get an opportunity to provide somone else with face thereby getting me in their favour. Learning how to work it is definitely worthwhile.

If you need to impress someone its much easier in Thailand than in England.

[donna]

A few months ago a friend of mine (Thai) who I thought was a good mate, was really rude to me. He embarassed me in front of many other people. Some really nasty and very undeserved things were said. I think he was just joking and trying to make everyone laugh, but it wasn't funny.

I told him that I didn't think his comments were funny and gave him a very playful TAP on the face. Nothing that even made a sound, and not done in a nasty way at all. I smiled and walked off because I did not want to make a scene.

I saw him the next day and he did exactly the same thing! Now, this guy has been around farang long enough to know what is right and what is wrong, so I walked away and have not spoken to him since.

I really miss his friendship, and I know that he is sorry for what he said. But if I go and confront him about it, one of us loses face. I feel that if I go and see him about it then I lose face. If he apologises to me (which he would NEVER do) then HE loses face.

But whose face is more valuable in this situation? At times it appears to me, also, that a Thai person has more face than a farang.

If I asked for these nasty comments I would have spoken to him by now and sorted it out. But I feel that because I did nothing wrong, why should I make the first move?

Please don't tell me that I am being childish about it. Maybe we both are, but I am not writing on this for those sorts of comments. Merely stating my opinion.

[Rinrada]

If you (Non T ) make a mistake what do you DO?

Easy...... just admit it......thats it ......Sor-ree (no need to go overboard)messed up yeah,made a right a**e of that didnt I,feel like a right plonker....etc.......

but anyone heard of a Thai do that........he cant....simply toooo much to bear......its.... lose of face

[TRIPxCORE]

I understand the concept of face in Thailand. The thing is, it's completely & utterly illogical. When I am dealing with people in LOS, I will try to abide by their customs so as not to hurt anyone but there are exceptions to that rule for me. If I am in a business situation and I am dealing with someone older than me (I am only 28), if I know this person doesn't know what the he** they're talking about and I do, I will step up and take charge of that because I don't want something to be done wrong. Mind you, I will try to do it as politely as possible but I will not let someone intentionally screw up something involving me just to save face for them.

It's a fine line farang have to walk in LOS sometimes.

Edited August 22, 2005 by TRIPxCORE

[Maestro]

Does anybody use "face" to his or her's benefit when interacting with Thai's

You seem to be talking about using one's “face”, or the "face" one believes to have, intentionally and deliberately to one's advantage, in the manner that the air force pilot cited by Raro in post #2 tried to do. I don't think this goes down well, not even between Thais.

It is, however, possible for a farang to gain "face" and for that "face" of his subsequently to be recognized and his being treated accordingly.

There was this farang, General Manager of the Thai subsidiary of a foreign chemical company. Shortly after taking up his position in Bangkok, he was brought around by a sales supervisor to visit the Bangkok wholesalers. One wholesaler he visited asked him for a special discount, over and above what other wholesalers got. With a smile, the farang replied, with the supervisor translating: "Khun Udom, you are an excellent customer and I would like to give you this discount, but I cannot because it would not be fair to the other wholesalers. What would you think, for example, if next week you heard that I gave another wholesaler an even bigger special discount?"

Subsequently, every time this farang walked into that wholesaler’s shop, whether with a sales person or alone, the wholesaler sent one of his assistants to bring him to his office (separated by a glass partition from the shop) for tea and a chat, while others who had arrived earlier to see him were kept waiting.

My thinking is that the wholesaler did not really expect to get a special discount, he merely asked that question to test the greenhorn farang, and the farang passed the test.

[Wolfie]

I dunno about you but "Face"  never seems to be working in my favour, whenever i experience a scenario where "face" is involved it normally puts me at a disadvantage and makes me feel used or cheated.......or a few thousand baht poorer   

Does anybody use "face" to his or her's benefit when interacting with Thai's

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As Farang, do we have any "Face"?

I don't think most Thais feel farangs have face.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If i understood it...

[OxfordWill]

Im pretty sure face isnt an attributable concept, everyone has it. Its too fundamental to be exclusive to Thais..thats my understanding anyway.

[Boo]

I always veiwed it the same as what my mum used to call "showing up in public" as in "don't you dare show me up in the supermarket" if I was having a strop. It applies to most people IMO but some thai people seem to use it as an excuse to not rock the boat or to keep the peace where as in the west we are encouraged to be more confrontational?

[johnnyk]

Don't know if this applies here but I was in an upscale resto near Asoke with a falang friend. We are both 50ish and were properly dressed.

two Thai couples of similar age were at a nearby table and one man knocked over a glass which shattered near me but no danger.

He had lost great face and said sorry and waied me.

I knew he had lost face so I smiled, said no problem and waied him back.

Everybody looked happy about it.

His face was restored and I gained face by understanding his situation.

[OldAsiaHand]

Talking about that seniority principle - also part of the whole issue....my secretary is 24 and rather smart. My driver is 51 and....my driver. Now the driver tries to tell the sec how to do the job and the sec doesn't dare to tell him to get lost. Even worse, she will do as he told her, at least until he's gone. Then she will come to see me and complain. Steep learning curve for her, but I insist on that she handles the problem, as she is in the company's hierarchy higher. And...it is getting better. By and by - in a Thai way - she is keeping him more and more at bay and she's gaining significant self confidence.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I've been through similar scenarios here a number of times and my own experience is that such gains in self-confidence are seldom if ever permanent with Thais.

On the whole, while Thais may learn to cope with a particular situation in a way that is new for them, they don't take the result as a lesson (in a western sense) to be applied to other areas of their life. Yes, I know that is a generalization and that doubtless there are Thais who have behaved differently; nevertheless, it is an accurate summary of my own experience here.

[meadish_sweetball]

Seniority (ระบบพี่น้อง) is not the same thing as face even though it is important to Thai culture.

Face (หน้า) is about embarrassment - when you do something perceived as embarrassing - lose your temper, do something clumpsy, inconsiderate or stupid, or are caught out being ignorant, faking or having lied - you lose face.

You put somebody else in a situation like the above - they lose face (and if you do it in a malevolent way, you are not exactly gaining any extra face either).

Seniority regulates to what degree something is inconsiderate. As an older person, you are not really expected to have to take younger peoples' feelings and thoughts into account. If you do, you gain face, but if you don't, that is perceived as normal.

[Jai Dee]

Yes, I have had situations where face works in my favour, particularly when I get an opportunity to provide somone else with face thereby getting me in their favour. Learning how to work it is definitely worthwhile.

Exactly...

I've just come out of a meeting with a Thai subcontractor where we had to find and sort a problem out. I already knew what the problem was, and so did one of the subcontractors... it just hadn't been "put on the table" because it would have meant loss of face for him in front of his peers and his boss.

By providing him (and his boss) with some face... the problem was able to be aired and rectified.

It's a subtle and devious way of getting things to work for you.

It doesn't happen all the time though...

[SiamOne]

Seniority (ระบบพี่น้อง) is not the same thing as face even though it is important to Thai culture.

Face (หน้า) is about embarrassment - when you do something perceived as embarrassing - lose your temper, do something clumpsy, inconsiderate or stupid, or are caught out being ignorant, faking or having lied - you lose face. 

You put somebody else in a situation like the above - they lose face (and if you do it in a malevolent way, you are not exactly gaining any extra face either).

Seniority regulates to what degree something is inconsiderate. As an older person, you are not really expected to have to take younger peoples' feelings and thoughts into account. If you do, you gain face, but if you don't, that is perceived as normal.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That is a nice way of describing what you call "face". It is more or less, embarrassment at what you have done, or caused. Shame is another part of it.

[BambinA]

Seniority (ระบบพี่น้อง)

aka ระบบอาวุโส

Bambi