How Many Expats Are Living In Thailand?

[GreenSnapper]

Good post Guesthouse and I dare say you will get a lot of flack, but there's no getting away from the reality.

Too many farang belittle the Thais for living for the day, but in many cases that is the proverbial pot calling the kettle black.

There are lo-so Thais and lo-so farangs here. The lo-so Thais certainly outnumber the lo-so farangs thousandfold.

Those here at TV, who regularly bitch about lo-so farangs who they think "should not be here" or spoil their paradise, do have some serious issues, I believe.

[Ulysses G.]

It is facile to argue that there are no negative impacts arising from the arrival of tens of thousands of old men in Thailand - Many do not have the financial means to take care of themselves, and there absolutely are impacts arising from the way these people live their lives and spend their money - By no stretch of any logic can an argument be made that all those impacts are positive.

I would never argue that there is no negative impact, but my guess is that there is far more positive impact from foreign retirees. Most of them spend a good deal of money here, some pay taxes and some have businesses that employ many Thais.

However, I will admit that the grumpy old farts that make little attempt to fit in here - a very vocal minority - certainly are annoying to read on Thai Visa with the constant whinging.

Edited December 25, 2010 by Ulysses G.

[mahtin]

GH being ageist again.

Thomas Aquinas.

Edited December 25, 2010 by mahtin

[stander]

Good post Guesthouse and I dare say you will get a lot of flack, but there's no getting away from the reality.

Too many farang belittle the Thais for living for the day, but in many cases that is the proverbial pot calling the kettle black.

There are lo-so Thais and lo-so farangs here. The lo-so Thais certainly outnumber the lo-so farangs thousandfold.

Those here at TV, who regularly bitch about lo-so farangs who they think "should not be here" or spoil their paradise, do have some serious issues, I believe.

Interesting obviously hit a nerve here

[geriatrickid]

I like data distributions and this topic doens't merit the conventional Bell curve. Instread, I think what we have is a population distributed in the extremes. Let's draw it for those less genius than me.

++++++..........+........... +++

If one excludes the Burmese and Cambodia quasi slave labour, I suggest that the majority of the foreign population just exists, they subsist, often on a hand to mouth basis.. They don't pay much into the Thai economy. Oh sure they buy some Thai goods and services like sex from hookers, but in the overall scheme of things, it's not that much. They just consume leaving a cost to society in terms of their environmental impact (pollution, consumption of limited resources, etc.) When they become ill, they take space at a public hospital denying care to a Thai national. These are the retirees on small pensions, the "teachers" the F&B mangers at hotels. All are easily expendable and carry little value in terms of moving Thailand forward. (That doesn't mean the retirees are worthless as human beings, but this discussion is strictly in respect to financial impact.)

Then, at the other end of the scale are the people that make big ticket purchases on a consistent basis, that have businesses employing enough Thais that the money is shared and tax revenues generated. These include the MNE's MDS that rotate in, the russians that spend 100million baht on Thai vacation homes, the Chinese tycoons with the multimillion baht love nests in Bangkok, the retirees that are part of the local fabric etc. It's this segment that make the contribution to Thailand and they perhaps represent less than 30% of all foreigners.

Face it, if they lose the head of malaria research up in Chiang Mai, it's a massive blow. If some of the retirees that carry the burden of some charities left, it would be felt. However, if a bar burns to the ground in Pattaya taking a dozen or so sex tourists, it's no loss and there would be new pervs to take their place.

The point? Some expats are worth more than others and they are the ones that matter most. This is one time where possessing financial means is the defining characteristic. Basically, if a foreigner is poor, he or she has no value to Thai society. They do not even qualify as inputs to the contribution margin, since they cost more to maintain than they bring..

Edited December 26, 2010 by geriatrickid

[MrBrad]

But I do not see how the farangs such as business owners or employees that acquire their incomes from Thailand actually benefit Thailand?

They pay their employees salaries - and often more than Thai employers.

They pay taxes.

They pay for food and lodging.

They pay for entertainment.

They buy things locally.

They often travel locally.

Etc., etc.

I'm sorry, but I do not understand your logic.

And...they provide businesses which enhance life in Thailand for other foreigners, thus encouraging even more foreigners to live here.

[richard10365]

I tend to agree with comments about x-pats not adding much to the economy. Even tourism is relatively small compared with the total GDP. That is what we are talking about right....the GDP?

Also, should we differentiate between x-pat farangs and x-pats from places like Burma and Indonesia?

[katabeachbum]

In Phuket with a registered population of 350.000 thais and an assumed population of 1-1,1 million thais, as much as 10% of all new cars/trucks sold are registered in foreign name. Considering how many foreigners buy a car and register in GF/wife/friends name, thats a pretty good indication of the foreign population. 10-15% of the thai population, would make like 150.000 foreigners living here part or full time

[katabeachbum]

I tend to agree with comments about x-pats not adding much to the economy. Even tourism is relatively small compared with the total GDP. That is what we are talking about right....the GDP?

Also, should we differentiate between x-pat farangs and x-pats from places like Burma and Indonesia?

spending 80-100k baht each month for 8 years, I believe I have contributed something to Thai economy.

[chiangmaibruce]

Well I'm fairly sure the truth is out there somewhere ... here is some of the old data I referred to earlier:

http://web.nso.go.th/eng/stat/subject/toc1.htm (see table 1.26)

[katabeachbum]

Well I'm fairly sure the truth is out there somewhere ... here is some of the old data I referred to earlier:

http://web.nso.go.th...ubject/toc1.htm (see table 1.26)

as most expats are non residents, the only numbers adequate would be foreigners adress reports at Immigration

but this would not catch the "every 90 days visa trip" part of the foreign population here, and certanly not the "work one month, one month home in LOS" population, most here on entry stamps

[chiangmaibruce]

Well I'm fairly sure the truth is out there somewhere ... here is some of the old data I referred to earlier:

http://web.nso.go.th...ubject/toc1.htm (see table 1.26)

as most expats are non residents, the only numbers adequate would be foreigners adress reports at Immigration

but this would not catch the "every 90 days visa trip" part of the foreign population here, and certanly not the "work one month, one month home in LOS" population, most here on entry stamps

OK, You're assuming that the data in the linked table refers to foreigners with 'permanent residency status' - I don't think that is the case

But my point is that the Thai government has access to the data about the number of foreigners resident in Thailand - or at least they would if they had the will + some coordination between relevant agencies + IT systems that worked. Leading on from that I am sure they could also calculate the net economic impact of both tourists and resident foreigners. A lot of info would be already captured by people like the Bank of Thailand ... again would just take will/coordination and some hard work by someone. Why would you bother? Well just take a look at the discussion in this thread to see the conflicting opinions. To be able to make a case that the net economic impact is both substantial and positive - as I think it would be - could encourage a government to adjust policy accordingly (and conversely to NOT adjust it according to what ill-informed xenophobes might call for).

I saw the same situation in Australia where people rabbitted on for years about how tourism didn't contribute anything .. overall negative impact ... profits taken out of the country by Japanese tour operators and hotel owners ... yada yada

Finally - and then subsequently again in later years - the government undertook and/or commissioned detailed research to look at the flow of money into and out of the country, the multiplier effect of tourist spending, etc etc. And guess whaat? Every study comprehensively rebutted the claims about "most of the money flowing out of the country", "most of the money just going into the pockets of a few companies", etc, etc.

I know this is Thailand. And I know that there are negative social and economic impacts of foreigners living here. But eventually the Thai Government will undertake this type of research to get accurate answers to these important questions, as well they should.

Edited December 26, 2010 by chiangmaibruce

[Ulysses G.]

But I do not see how the farangs such as business owners or employees that acquire their incomes from Thailand actually benefit Thailand?

They pay their employees salaries - and often more than Thai employers.

They pay taxes.

They pay for food and lodging.

They pay for entertainment.

They buy things locally.

They often travel locally.

Etc., etc.

I'm sorry, but I do not understand your logic.

And...they provide businesses which enhance life in Thailand for other foreigners, thus encouraging even more foreigners to live here.

As well as making Thailand more comfortable for big spending foreign tourists, so they want to spend more time here.

[billd766]

I tend to agree with comments about x-pats not adding much to the economy. Even tourism is relatively small compared with the total GDP. That is what we are talking about right....the GDP?

Also, should we differentiate between x-pat farangs and x-pats from places like Burma and Indonesia?

spending 80-100k baht each month for 8 years, I believe I have contributed something to Thai economy.

Me too.

[richard10365]

I'm sure we can all agree that foreigners add to the economy. However, I doubt it is significant. I think people just want to think the money they spend here is more important than it really is.

[Jingthing]

I think the truth about this is somewhere in the middle. The impact is not nothing but it is not everything either. People need to realize that new money brought in has a multiplier effect. If you spend a million baht of new imported money per year, the impact on the local economy is much greater than a million baht, and it does indeed create a number of local jobs. It's a stimulus and that's basic economics for you, dismal at it may be.

[chiangmaibruce]

I'm sure we can all agree that foreigners add to the economy. However, I doubt it is significant. I think people just want to think the money they spend here is more important than it really is.

"the Thai economy only receives around 7% of its GDP from international tourism revenue, a figure which is nonetheless a substantial 550 billion Baht (nearly USD 16 billion)."

http://www.tourismthailand.org/about-thailand/economy/

I know if 550 billion baht found it's way into my bank account, I would consider the event to be "significant"

PS: And this amount - depending on the definition used for "Tourists" - may not even include the financial contribution made by resident foreigners (i.e. not here on tourist visas)

[Jingthing]

Also, don't forget the "underground" money that comes in for "social" reasons.

[lannarebirth]

OK, I'm going to pull some numbers out of my ass here but I would guess that I'm within 20% of the correct number. Farang in Thailand 350,000- 400,000. Including expats from non western countries eg: Japan, Korea, etc. , I'll guess 550,000-600,000.

[samran]

'Not feeling appreciated' is a common theme in these threads.

Yes, especially from the 'if it wasn't for me Thailand would fall in a heap mob'.

[Deeral]

I would say that the main source of external; income for Thailand is Japanese and Korean investment. Western expats are in general a drop in the ocean

[TAWP]

Expats living here doesn't make or break the country. (The inner circles has made sure of that.)

But the contribution is far more than 'plus minus zero' or 'a drain on the country' that some ignoramus spout to attack expats with.

That statement is far more wrong than the statement that the contributions is of high value by a factor of several times - even if they are both off the mark.

Edited December 26, 2010 by TAWP

[GuestHouse]

GH being ageist again.

Thomas Aquinas.

No..... GH makes the hardly controversial observation that old people moving to Thailand bring with them their rapidly growing 'old people's' needs.

I wonder how many 'Old Guys' living in relationships founded on their ability to bring forth payments when required will find their growing welfare needs are ignored when the payment doesn't cover dealing with the diseases of old age.

How many more, in the realisation that 'their only worth is their money' are in relationships where they control the flow of every penny - but neglect to take into account that old age might rob them of the ability to do so?

I've said it many times before an I see no reason to change my mind - Thailand is importing a welfare disaster.

[MAJIC]

About 3 years ago, the British Embassy reckoned there were 35000 Brits living long term in Thailand. That covers, retirees, English teachers, company managers on 2 - 3 year contracts etc.

Anyone want to extrapolate from that single data point?

Did you mean 35,000 or 350,000

The reason I asked is that another Thailand based Website Forum has estimated:400,000?

[Chunky1]

The only thing that "drains" an economy is government taxation and intervention. A higher demand for goods simply drives up prices. That might be good or bad for certain individuals but the "economy" is indifferent. Just because you can't afford to run the A/C all day long doesn't mean that something in the world has gone wrong. It's crazy just how little common sense many people have when it comes to economics.

[Chunky1]

GH being ageist again.

Thomas Aquinas.

No..... GH makes the hardly controversial observation that old people moving to Thailand bring with them their rapidly growing 'old people's' needs.

I wonder how many 'Old Guys' living in relationships founded on their ability to bring forth payments when required will find their growing welfare needs are ignored when the payment doesn't cover dealing with the diseases of old age.

How many more, in the realisation that 'their only worth is their money' are in relationships where they control the flow of every penny - but neglect to take into account that old age might rob them of the ability to do so?

I've said it many times before an I see no reason to change my mind - Thailand is importing a welfare disaster.

Thailand is not importing anything and it's certainly not their disaster.

[GreenSnapper]

I've said it many times before an I see no reason to change my mind - Thailand is importing a welfare disaster.

Thailand is not importing anything and it's certainly not their disaster.

Well, Phuket has 40 older Farangs in government hospitals who cannot pay their bills.

I asked my motorbike driver what he thinks about that, and he answered:

"Yes, it is a disaster, it will ruin Thailand, the Baht will go through the ceilings, our exports will collapse and Suvannaphum will end in a swamp..."

So it must be a disaster, I believe and Thailand should set up a task force to prevent it.

Edited December 27, 2010 by GreenSnapper

[Ulysses G.]

I asked my motorbike driver what he thinks about that, and he answered:

"Yes, it is a disaster, it will ruin Thailand, the Baht will go through the ceilings, our exports will collapse and Suvannaphum will end in a swamp..."

So it must be a disaster, I believe and Thailand should set up a task force to prevent it.

My butler, Khun Somchai, very much agrees with your driver. He thinks that the old, fat farang problem is much worse than the Yellow Shirt, Red Shirt thing.

[welbymd]

But I do not see how the farangs such as business owners or employees that acquire their incomes from Thailand actually benefit Thailand? They seem to take out more then they put in. Although business owners, if legal, claim that they are good for the Thai economy by creating employment for Thais and paying taxes, those that declare taxes of course, they are still gaining the benefits of much cheaper labor and paying much less tax then they would in the West, getting rich on the proceeds but not citizens, yet, enjoying a more prosperous lifestyle then the average Thai worker and even nationals in their own countries. So it appears they gain more then they put in.

Do you need a work permit to grind your axe?

When was the last time you went to any store to buy something? Everybody pays VAT. Does that count?

Own a condo? Rent an apartment? Who cleans the home?

You got to eat too. Own a car?

It is a capitalist world we live in. Accept it or move on.

[CrossBones]

If we could work out how many active users there are on thaivisa.com... and then by means of survey work out what percentage approximately of farang expats use TV.. we could get a pretty good indication. Probably better than official figures since many farangs who live here arent doing so officially.