'Leaked' Reports Blame Thai Military For Some Crackdown Deaths

[rubl]

Now I agree. Your previous remarks should and can be safely ignored.

Not at all. The discussion further highlights your ongoing attempts to gloss over the actions of a brutal, corrupt, politically-interfering military.

exactly... bring on the election! Army shooting protestors is disgraceful - Abhisit and his sidekick Suthep will never be forgiven

I assume that this general statement is again an 'opinion only'. Myself I still hope and pray for reconciliation.

[Pi Sek]

exactly... bring on the election! Army shooting protestors is disgraceful - Abhisit and his sidekick Suthep will never be forgiven

Funny, I think that the army shooting protesters was exactly what was needed at the time - the opposite of disgraceful, it was commendable. I suppose that's the freedom that democracy truly offers, but is unmentionable to a Red Shirt.

But I agree, Abhisit and his sidekick Suthep will never be forgiven by those who still blame them... even if their orders as released to the public were less forceful than the army's actions. I think that says more about those who still blame them than either Abhisit or Suthep.

[fnprop]

So in the end, it really doesn't matter whether they are doctored or not.

You could have just said that, and spared us the rest of your diatribe. gl

Yeah, but then it would have sounded like a piece from The Nation.

Besides, it would do some of the posters good to learn that the PM isn't the CINC in Thailand. And that they may have forgotten details of earlier reports, or can't get the news that's available outside of the Kingdom.

[TAWP]

Maybe we should bring the terrorists back, and reinstall them downtown - that would make Simon happy, I'm sure. He seems fine with the grenade tossing, rpg firing, baby human shield using, shopping mall burning crowd.

I'm all for it. And put him in the midst of it all.

[Siam Simon]

Maybe we should bring the terrorists back, and reinstall them downtown - that would make Simon happy, I'm sure. He seems fine with the grenade tossing, rpg firing, baby human shield using, shopping mall burning crowd.

But 'tiger, you were one of the ones applauding the escalations of violence (cheerleading being your strong point, of course ). All my posts on such subjects have condemned violence by all sides. Just as I condemned the violence by Red shirt extremists, I condemned the 'bull in a china shop' SOP of the Army.

There's a big difference between condemning ALL inflammatory violent acts and cheerleading them when they are committed by one side, young man (I'm assuming you are young because of your rather 'green' posting style).

[Siam Simon]

Maybe we should bring the terrorists back, and reinstall them downtown - that would make Simon happy, I'm sure. He seems fine with the grenade tossing, rpg firing, baby human shield using, shopping mall burning crowd.

I'm all for it. And put him in the midst of it all.

Nah, it's posters like you who need to be put in the middle of it all to experience what you are cheerleading. You should also go and spend some time with bereaved families from all sides of the conflict, and also spend some time helping people who have suffered life-changing injuries.

[whybother]

Maybe we should bring the terrorists back, and reinstall them downtown - that would make Simon happy, I'm sure. He seems fine with the grenade tossing, rpg firing, baby human shield using, shopping mall burning crowd.

But 'tiger, you were one of the ones applauding the escalations of violence (cheerleading being your strong point, of course ). All my posts on such subjects have condemned violence by all sides. Just as I condemned the violence by Red shirt extremists, I condemned the 'bull in a china shop' SOP of the Army.

There's a big difference between condemning ALL inflammatory violent acts and cheerleading them when they are committed by one side, young man (I'm assuming you are young because of your rather 'green' posting style).

"Bull in a China shop"?? Sorry, I missed the reports of the thousands of dead protesters.

I think you should give up on making assumptions as they are usually wrong.

[Siam Simon]

Maybe we should bring the terrorists back, and reinstall them downtown - that would make Simon happy, I'm sure. He seems fine with the grenade tossing, rpg firing, baby human shield using, shopping mall burning crowd.

But 'tiger, you were one of the ones applauding the escalations of violence (cheerleading being your strong point, of course ). All my posts on such subjects have condemned violence by all sides. Just as I condemned the violence by Red shirt extremists, I condemned the 'bull in a china shop' SOP of the Army.

There's a big difference between condemning ALL inflammatory violent acts and cheerleading them when they are committed by one side, young man (I'm assuming you are young because of your rather 'green' posting style).

"Bull in a China shop"?? Sorry, I missed the reports of the thousands of dead protesters.

I think you should give up on making assumptions as they are usually wrong.

Maybe you would like to open a thread on the differences in the ways how the Thai Army and security services the West deal with civil disobedience, and the way in which Armed Response Units deal with gunmen in the West (hint: they don't send several thousand army personnel in), and the intelligent, organic way that security forces in the West deal with each separate problem in a given situation separately. Then you may start to understand why Thailand is stuck in Groundhog Day with regard to all of it's internal security issues. And why It has such an appalling record on deaths and injuries in said security issues.

[whybother]

Maybe you would like to open a thread on the differences in the ways how the Thai Army and security services the West deal with civil disobedience, and the way in which Armed Response Units deal with gunmen in the West (hint: they don't send several thousand army personnel in), and the intelligent, organic way that security forces in the West deal with each separate problem in a given situation separately. Then you may start to understand why Thailand is stuck in Groundhog Day with regard to all of it's internal security issues. And why It has such an appalling record on deaths and injuries in said security issues.

Not sure where to start such a thread. General doesn't allow political threads ("temporary" rules).

But given that you don't think the protests should have even been dispersed in the first place, I don't think the discussion would go very far.

You bring up how "Armed Response Units deal with gunmen in the West", but can you give one example of a protest in the west where the protesters were armed?

Maybe you can give some examples of protests in the west where the protesters were allowed to storm parliament and businesses and not have some sort of police response. (I know I don't have a question mark since it is not strictly a question, but it is a statement where I would like a response.)

[rubl]

But 'tiger, you were one of the ones applauding the escalations of violence (cheerleading being your strong point, of course ). All my posts on such subjects have condemned violence by all sides. Just as I condemned the violence by Red shirt extremists, I condemned the 'bull in a china shop' SOP of the Army.

There's a big difference between condemning ALL inflammatory violent acts and cheerleading them when they are committed by one side, young man (I'm assuming you are young because of your rather 'green' posting style).

"Bull in a China shop"?? Sorry, I missed the reports of the thousands of dead protesters.

I think you should give up on making assumptions as they are usually wrong.

Maybe you would like to open a thread on the differences in the ways how the Thai Army and security services the West deal with civil disobedience, and the way in which Armed Response Units deal with gunmen in the West (hint: they don't send several thousand army personnel in), and the intelligent, organic way that security forces in the West deal with each separate problem in a given situation separately. Then you may start to understand why Thailand is stuck in Groundhog Day with regard to all of it's internal security issues. And why It has such an appalling record on deaths and injuries in said security issues.

In the West security services do not deal with civil disobedience. The police does and has special units to deal with crowd control. Here in Thailand the police has a very poor reputation in crowd control even with all the training and material they've got. Protesters died because of 'explosive' teargas canisters in 2008.

To compare the Thai Army and Western security services in dealing with 'civil disobedience' would therefor be incorrect, or at least wouldn't serve a clear goal (maybe only a program ).

As for 'deal with gunmen', not too many cases nowadays that the security forces in the West need to deal with 'gunmen'. Actually I would have to search to find the last case. This assuming you are still talking about 'civil disobedience' and not 'terrorist activities' because then it becomes a completely different ballgame.

[rubl]

From the OP:

The source of the leaked report also told The Nation that all the files, both in Thai and English, would be uploaded on a yet-to-be-identified site by today.

That was the 24th, now we have 29th. Are those 'leaked' reports available in English and online ? If yes, anyone with a link?

Edited December 29, 2010 by rubl

[TAWP]

Maybe we should bring the terrorists back, and reinstall them downtown - that would make Simon happy, I'm sure. He seems fine with the grenade tossing, rpg firing, baby human shield using, shopping mall burning crowd.

I'm all for it. And put him in the midst of it all.

Nah, it's posters like you who need to be put in the middle of it all to experience what you are cheerleading. You should also go and spend some time with bereaved families from all sides of the conflict, and also spend some time helping people who have suffered life-changing injuries.

YOU are the one 'cheerleading'(sic) violent riots and the armed response that follows.

I on the other hand would cheer for proper reformations, talks by intellectuals (as oppose by criminals) and peace.

The above suggestion by SomTumTiger wasn't what WE wanted, it was what we perceived YOU wanted from the line of your reasoning.

Edited December 29, 2010 by TAWP

[jayboy]

Funny, I think that the army shooting protesters was exactly what was needed at the time - the opposite of disgraceful, it was commendable. I suppose that's the freedom that democracy truly offers, but is unmentionable to a Red Shirt.

The kind of sickening and psychotic thinking behind this post in an ideal world would be very rare.Unfortunately in Thailand it isn't as evidenced by the clearly psychotic social networking response (particularly on Facebook) after the army's violent clearance, e,g the "Enjoy red shirts bodies" page.Some details follow:

http://publicintelligence.net/ufouo-open-source-center-thai-social-media-anti-red-shirt-campaigns/

[mca]

Funny, I think that the army shooting protesters was exactly what was needed at the time - the opposite of disgraceful, it was commendable

I rather hope you mean " armed red shirt supporters " as opposed to " protesters "

[rubl]

Funny, I think that the army shooting protesters was exactly what was needed at the time - the opposite of disgraceful, it was commendable. I suppose that's the freedom that democracy truly offers, but is unmentionable to a Red Shirt.

The kind of sickening and psychotic thinking behind this post in an ideal world would be very rare.Unfortunately in Thailand it isn't as evidenced by the clearly psychotic social networking response (particularly on Facebook) after the army's violent clearance, e,g the "Enjoy red shirts bodies" page.Some details follow:

http://publicintelligence.net/ufouo-open-source-center-thai-social-media-anti-red-shirt-campaigns/

Under the late PM Samak that wouldn't have happened:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2008/sep/03/digitalmedia.thailand

Mind you personally I would have no problems at all to censure the most militant of anti-red-shirt websites. I seriously dislike hate-sowing and war-mongering by whoever.

[Pi Sek]

Funny, I think that the army shooting protesters was exactly what was needed at the time - the opposite of disgraceful, it was commendable. I suppose that's the freedom that democracy truly offers, but is unmentionable to a Red Shirt.

The kind of sickening and psychotic thinking behind this post in an ideal world would be very rare.Unfortunately in Thailand it isn't as evidenced by the clearly psychotic social networking response (particularly on Facebook) after the army's violent clearance, e,g the "Enjoy red shirts bodies" page.Some details follow:

http://publicintelligence.net/ufouo-open-source-center-thai-social-media-anti-red-shirt-campaigns/

Psychotic thinking? I think you have misunderstood my post - ironically enough, your response to my first sentence reinforces the second sentence in my post. The army was very much needed to shoot protesters, because the protest was abhorrently violent at that stage and was negatively affecting the rights of the other 63 million Thais, and the police couldn't deal with it for whatever reason.

An "Enjoy red shirts bodies" page is distasteful and, yes, disgraceful. Not all Red Shirts fit into the violent insurgent category, even the ones that stayed around in May as cannon fodder (for whom is another question).

[Pi Sek]

Funny, I think that the army shooting protesters was exactly what was needed at the time - the opposite of disgraceful, it was commendable

I rather hope you mean " armed red shirt supporters " as opposed to " protesters "

Sort of. Armed red shirt supporters were there and, yes, that's what the focus of my post was about. But the protesters who were not armed, but merely assisting those who were armed... sorry, whilst it is harsher than you and I would like to see, many of them got what they deserved too. They played their part.

However, I have no doubt that some got more than they deserved.

[Siam Simon]

YOU are the one 'cheerleading'(sic) violent riots and the armed response that follows.

No I'm not, and I never have.

I on the other hand would cheer for proper reformations, talks by intellectuals (as oppose by criminals) and peace.

There are quite a lot of people in the upper echelons of Thai society past and present who would have very serious criminal records in a equal world. But whether someone has one or 'got away with things' (or in Thaksin's case, a mixture of both), genuine reconciliation has to be inclusive, and it has to include painful forgiveness. There is no genuine movement forward to proper reformations without it. Have a look at other countries' case histories on this.

The above suggestion by SomTumTiger wasn't what WE wanted, it was what we perceived YOU wanted from the line of your reasoning.

You perceived wrong. My line of reasoning is always anti-violence.

[Insight]

From the OP:

The source of the leaked report also told The Nation that all the files, both in Thai and English, would be uploaded on a yet-to-be-identified site by today.

That was the 24th, now we have 29th. Are those 'leaked' reports available in English and online ? If yes, anyone with a link?

The Thai reports are the ones EmptySet linked to before and contained within the zip file I uploaded.

[Siam Simon]

Funny, I think that the army shooting protesters was exactly what was needed at the time - the opposite of disgraceful, it was commendable

I rather hope you mean " armed red shirt supporters " as opposed to " protesters "

Sort of. Armed red shirt supporters were there and, yes, that's what the focus of my post was about. But the protesters who were not armed, but merely assisting those who were armed... sorry, whilst it is harsher than you and I would like to see, many of them got what they deserved too. They played their part.

However, I have no doubt that some got more than they deserved.

Disgusting .

[Pi Sek]

Funny, I think that the army shooting protesters was exactly what was needed at the time - the opposite of disgraceful, it was commendable

I rather hope you mean " armed red shirt supporters " as opposed to " protesters "

Sort of. Armed red shirt supporters were there and, yes, that's what the focus of my post was about. But the protesters who were not armed, but merely assisting those who were armed... sorry, whilst it is harsher than you and I would like to see, many of them got what they deserved too. They played their part.

However, I have no doubt that some got more than they deserved.

Disgusting .

Really? How so?

Unless you are not referring to me, but the army or the protesters.

[Siam Simon]

Not sure where to start such a thread. General doesn't allow political threads ("temporary" rules).

But given that you don't think the protests should have even been dispersed in the first place, I don't think the discussion would go very far.

Well, you're wrong. I happen to think the protests should have been dispersed, but AFTER the armed element had been dealt with. Until then, they should have used containment and restraint.

You bring up how "Armed Response Units deal with gunmen in the West", but can you give one example of a protest in the west where the protesters were armed?

A small number of the protestors were armed. The troubles in Northern Ireland sometimes had similar (but more complex and deeply-rooted) situations. Apart from one terrible day (Bloody Sunday), British security forces always dealt with the armed as a separate entity to the un-armed. That's one of the main purposes of intel and special units, whether dealing with protests with violent elements or any other internal security threats involving lethal weapons.

Maybe you can give some examples of protests in the west where the protesters were allowed to storm parliament and businesses and not have some sort of police response. (I know I don't have a question mark since it is not strictly a question, but it is a statement where I would like a response.)

I'm not disagreeing with you on the basics here, just the clumsy, brutal way that the Thai security services always do it.

[Siam Simon]

Disgusting .

Really? How so?

Unless you are not referring to me, but the army or the protesters.

Yes, I mean you and your assertion that un-armed protestors "got what they deserved". With opinions like yours, there is simply no hope for reconciliation.

[rubl]

From the OP:

The source of the leaked report also told The Nation that all the files, both in Thai and English, would be uploaded on a yet-to-be-identified site by today.

That was the 24th, now we have 29th. Are those 'leaked' reports available in English and online ? If yes, anyone with a link?

The Thai reports are the ones EmptySet linked to before and contained within the zip file I uploaded.

YES, but what about the English version the OP talked about ?

[SamritT]

http://www.economist.com/node/17803639?story_id=17803639&fsrc not sure if Economists is ban or not.

[Buchholz]

e,g the "Enjoy red shirts bodies" page.Some details follow:

There's no such page on facebook.

[SomTumTiger]

Siam is creating his own history - certainly not what really happened.

[phiphidon]

e,g the "Enjoy red shirts bodies" page.Some details follow:

There's no such page on facebook.

I think you missed the point of the report - it pointed out that as of the 21st June 2010 that "group" still had a prescence on facebook and had not been banned by the government whilst other pro red shirt websites had been banned. The fact that the "enjoy red shirts bodies" facebook group does not now exist means that the government has finally got round to banning directly or putting pressure on to Facebook to have the group page banned sometime between the 21st June 2010 and the the present day. Or are you trying to deny the fact that it existed in the first place?

[rubl]

e,g the "Enjoy red shirts bodies" page.Some details follow:

There's no such page on facebook.

I think you missed the point of the report - it pointed out that as of the 21st June 2010 that "group" still had a prescence on facebook and had not been banned by the government whilst other pro red shirt websites had been banned. The fact that the "enjoy red shirts bodies" facebook group does not now exist means that the government has finally got round to banning directly or putting pressure on to Facebook to have the group page banned sometime between the 21st June 2010 and the the present day. Or are you trying to deny the fact that it existed in the first place?

With the disaster of April - May I'm not surprised the first attention was on pro red-shirt websites. Following other 'extreme' websites would and are closed or blocked. Knowing the precise order in which 'extreme', 'hate-spreading', 'war-mongering' or other websites were closed/blocked doesn't really give you much 'added value' though.

Internet censure in general should be avoided, but with some websites no real choice. As indicated before any 'extreme' site should be blocked IMHO.

[Buchholz]

e,g the "Enjoy red shirts bodies" page.Some details follow:

There's no such page on facebook.

I think you missed the point of the report - it pointed out that as of the 21st June 2010 that "group" still had a prescence on facebook and had not been banned by the government whilst other pro red shirt websites had been banned. The fact that the "enjoy red shirts bodies" facebook group does not now exist means that the government has finally got round to banning directly or putting pressure on to Facebook to have the group page banned sometime between the 21st June 2010 and the the present day. Or are you trying to deny the fact that it existed in the first place?

I don't know, do you?

Do you know for a fact it did exist outside some blogger saying it did?

Do you have any proof of its past existence?

Do you know for a fact that the government banned the site as you claim?

Do you know for a fact the government put pressure on Facebook to close it as you claim?

It's the Internet. Anybody can claim anything exists on it... especially if it doesn't exist today without any proof it ever did.

.

Edited December 30, 2010 by Buchholz